Mini Game Gold Rush: How WeChat Turned Snackable Games into a $7B Market

Social is so key in China because Chinese player they want to be the best in their friend. I think you know that's the key
recognition recognition social stat. I think it's quite important for them because every now and then I wish I would get their uh share to me like I'm the number one in this ranking. Can you beat me? Okay, I will try. I will try. I think challenging is very important. Make make it a little bit challenging because these people love uh difficult. They they try to chase difficulty and also make sure once they done that you make sure they have the play to show off to share in the group to share with their friends. So
it makes a statement.
Yeah. So this is not just Google think apps in Vietnam. This is also my opportunity to connect with Lemon and Lemon Choi. I mean, first of all, if I'm just meeting

you during this event, that's what it's all about, connection, right? I'm meeting you for the first time and I'm thinking the master of mini games. That's what I'm going to call you. But why am I thinking that? I mean, what happened that you have become really the go-to for so much information about this exciting market and more claim to fame? How did it happen?
Am I honored to be here? Yeah. Because I think mini game is booming in China now. So, but not that much people know about it. So, I decide to write about this and let the world know what's happening in in the China ecosystem. I think it's quite amazing. I think the same thing will happen soon in the western or in Southeast Asia too. Yeah.
I mean, that's a that's quite a quite a claim because when you look at the data, I mean, and maybe you just backtrack a little bit for my listeners over at Pocket Gamer understanding this particular type of mobile gaming. I mean, it reinvents itself every year or so. I mean, look at hyper casual, right? But now we're talking mini games. That's what's born inside the super apps, the WeChat chat. Give me some numbers first

so we can get our heads around just how big this trend is.
Yeah, I think one simple uh number is that the top grossing which mini game making more than 1 million dollar per day. I mean the Bambian survivors are number one.
No developer would mind that.
Yeah. So you just think about it just it's it's amazing. $1 million per days on just on their which mini game channel only not include their apps still I think the number is big enough to
what is it is it because they're snackable is that the main reason for that kind of an audience
yeah because I think the wish has been 10 years ago it goes through a very long periods of development I think now is reach primal uh state because you think of the uh new app store inside super app you don't have to download their app like the traditional app store. You go to the you watch the app, you then go to app store, you decide whether to whether or not to download the game or not. But for the mini game, you watch the app, you think it's funny, you click on it

and then it will leave you to open the
the app. I think there is a freshness experience. Yeah. Feel the growth of their mini game. Yeah.
Mhm. I mean that it is because of it being seamless then it can be spontaneous.
And um I'm looking at the numbers you were talking about a million a day. It's now worth $7 billion.
Yeah. This is your numbers, by the way. 15% year-on-year growth, 500 million monthly players, 400,000 active developers. So quite a healthy ecosystem as well. How does that happen? I mean, is that like a is that the gold rush? Is that's what's happening here in Asia and everybody is going to it. Is that the momentum or is it simply because it's a great game?
Because I think it's based on player. Player prefer a very similar frictionless experience. Like I say before, like for the in the transitional app store ecosystem, it's there's a lot of refresh. You watch your app, then you drive you to the app store. Maybe if your Wi-Fi is not ready, yeah, you need to download and wait for

three or five minute for you to play the game. So there's a lot of friction between the player the desire to play and and the they actually play. So but mini game remove the friction. I think that's very important. And also five years ago it's quite hard for a player to play a 3D game on their which mini game platform but the platform itself is evolving very fast now you can play white out survivor is a king shot is already supercell is supercell is ready to bring their title crash royale into the uh mini game uh ecosystem I think that maybe uh next year you can play the jensing impact I don't know I don't know but I think it's happening really fast but uh five years ago only 2D but now very uh high quality 3D game is playable in the uh we mini game ecosystem I think platform itself is evolving player heavy is already formed because they're getting used to play this game they can share with their friend and chat and they just open and let's play this

together it's very frictionist experience very
very social
yeah very social yeah
more than it is really with the with the actual mobile gaming experience now let's talk about you because you've built hyperjoy Okay. I like that because everything in Vietnam sparks joy for me. It's something about the the vibe here. And uh you consult with studios like Scopely. So that's impressive. You got a blog which I'm going to be checking out. Lemon Game Talks um has also become the go-to for dev. So you've got a front seat on this shift. It must be amazing for you. You like you know you're witnessing what's happening in the moment and able to tell us about it. What is it that you find the most exciting or invigorating about watching this market? Probably also shaping it with hyperjoy as well and consulting. So you are playing a role.
The boom happened in this three or two or three years. It's happening very fast. We see a very brilliant scan like legend of master room actually is a it's

bu mini game first and then it go to the global market. Yeah. Yeah. So we see a lot of our which are native uh mini game go to the global marquee and have a great result. Bamb survivor doodle magic there's a lot of iteration happening here. So it's it's very amazing to see this incredible team building an incredible product in the mini game market but also they try to expand to the global market. I think it's a unstable ch in the future. I believe there will be more more and very uh heat game coming for the which mini game or mini game in China to the global market. I think this is amazing to witness all these. Yeah.
So what's going to happen for Europe for west to finally sort of get mini games? Is it is it going to be about making the games differently or thinking about even the the mechanics differently or what is it that's going to help developers, you know, cuz you're talking to them.
Yeah.

What do you tell them to help them get and understand not just the opportunity, but what they're going to have to do to take advantage of it?
Three years ago, when I talk with someone in China about a mini game, they they still don't get it. What is it? Is this like their like hyper casual gang in something like that? Yeah. So it's quite hard for for them to follow out with what's happening but after these two years most of their Chinese developer or publisher I know what's what's med they already get a get a sense about oh this is new app store uh but without download so it's a huge opportunity. Yeah. So when I talk with sir western uh about which because the uh mini I think it's quite confusing because people think of it like a very small game casual game like puzzle game. So I just open my vChat I load the white house survivor I say I can play this white house survivor without download oh amazing how do you do that so they instantly get it. Oh, it's a it's a new app store insidether uh WeChat or

Doing a super app. Everything is there and the audience is there because you do everything in WeChat. I mean you can make payments, call for delivery, everything your life takes place in this app. So it makes sense that the games
are also taking place there.
Yeah. Yeah. So first you have you should understand what is mini just because I think it's quite a lot of confusion about misunderstanding about a mini gang ecosystem. I think there the first step is understand what's happening here in the region mini game market what's mini game actually how big the scare is so I think uh as long as you have their correct understanding you made a correct choice because I think a lot of uh western product and western game are already publishing in their which mini game are doing the Chinese tin game have great result because they know what is their local publisher tell them mini game is the only thing you
the only game in town literally so you can master that. I mean, you're talking again, I'm going to take it from the European perspective because again the

audience and Pocket Gamer and all the developers, you know, you call it, and I read this in your blog, you're calling it the mini game gold rush.
So, for everyone listening outside of China, we know what's driving this explosion, but what's about faster ROIs? It's just off the charts. What What makes that happen? Is it just because of the the games itself or somewhere in the ecosystem? Because it's not just that the games are popular, the developers are getting rich.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think it's our ecosystem because like the ecosystem is ready and everyone is getting making money out of it. Yeah. Like the monetization you have you got it covered because we we don't use cash anymore in China. Most most of us use their WeChat payment or Ali payment. So payments built in.
Yeah. Payment building. You can buy uh the item in the G use payment things like that is very convenient. So I think the payment is ready and also uh you know there's a social phenomena everyone try to cry to their best wagon like oh

you are doing the mission mini game you're making you're rich so I'll try to make this same game so also there are a lot of team in China because they are facing challenge in their traditional app store economy because the rising UA costs everywhere in China the same case the UA cost double every years you cannot solve their their uh problem so but due to the frictionist experience of a mini game. The UA cost not that high compared to the traditional app store. So they think a very good ROI in terms of that. So they decide to invest more into this mini game. And yeah, I think it's a very positive cycle that people made money and they peer in there. Yeah,
cuz you said the investment in UA isn't as great because you know you do literally have a captured audience. Everyone's excited to be in WeChat.
They can pay in WeChat. you have monetization. This is a regional phenomenon, right? But it is, as you said, it's going to be going global. How's that seeing, you know, how's also

the global impact on mini games, you know, how they're built, discovered, monetized. It's a little bit in both directions, isn't it?
It's not going to happen very soon in the west because they have a different ecosystem there because in China, we have a super like WeChat chat. They take care of everything. We use it for social, we use it for payment. We use it for have fun and reading article news everything. This is one app and one language. We only have one language in China. So Chinese. So I think it's easy. You don't have to worry about a localization problem and payment system. But in the west, I think it's not a simple copy and paste. Here in in Vietnam, I think the zo will have their uh similar development uh like the past like in the rich. In the west, I think the principle is the same. Player prefer fresh experience. Yeah, that's cool because they don't need to go to app store. Social I think very important. I how can I share my it's very hard for me to share my app to my friend. I I have to share the link to that store. They

have to download it and say, "Oh, what's your number? What's your Yeah, there's a lot of Yeah, a lot of friction here. But join in the Yeah, just share it. You open and okay, I can play together with you." It's very fresh experience. So I think the fundamental principle apply in everywhere. Does your player does your user prefer a frictionist experience instant gratification? I think it's yeah it's that does your player want to play with your friend. How can I build a very ecosystem out of it? I think community social everything. I think it's all you got to build a very healthy ecosystem. I think yeah mini gang got it covered. I think
for someone who says it's really China only. I mean, we have examples that that's not the case. We're looking at Supercell. I mean, we're looking at these top titles saying that's a market where I want to be, but what are you telling companies who are on the fence about it? I mean, it isn't simple. It's not perhaps turn the question around. What types of companies from the west

other than the supercells can hope to enter that market or should even look to do it? Because again, bring putting on your consulting hat, that's where you would give them advice. But some people maybe should just pass.
Yeah. First I think your G should have a proven metric in the western market. Like if you don't you cannot scale again on the western is how it's also very hard to scale. It's not going to happen. So I think the best way is you already have a proven title with script retention match tree and also the best case will be in a 3D game because like in 2D game uh the Chinese guy very smart and quite easy to come out with a clone to the competition is there because
and also the user experience I mean 3D is hot.
Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe idle arcade game like some simulation game. I think it's a perfect fit for you to because we see already idol lumbo in is already in the Chinese version. great results. So, idor arcade 3D and also if you're building for a niche audience and that's okay. I think that's

good. That's advantage because you have a less competition here. If you're building a very popular app before you enter the Chinese market, I think most competitor there will make a copy search. Yes. Yeah. So, I think the best way to into this market is to make sure you already have a proven title and then find local and I I can have you help you set you. know a lot of brain.
I was going to say the entry strategy I was going to come to. So it's basically
Yeah.
You know, put you on speed dial or text you or find you on WeChat.
Yeah. On LinkedIn. But but what would but seriously um but they should do that lemon of course but seriously some thoughts about you know entering and uh you know if you want to test this format is there is there a smart entry strategy sort of you because you want to test the waters if you're a company as you said with a proven game good mechanics solid retention you're like yes I can do this I can go to China I can have a miniame but in what steps I mean should you test

it how do test it because you don't want to go all in.
I think the uh most efficient way is uh go with the UA creative first because you can see the how the player react to your your UA creative. You don't need the full game to launch first. You can just test the water putting your UA creative uh in their ecosystem to run some UA campaign. Ask their publisher to help you if the CTR or CPI is good enough and it check which mean you do have an audience over there and then you slowly integrate with everything. But I think the integration part is uh quite easy uh now day it's quite easy to publish it again in the mini game compared two years ago because their policy should not be the problem. So I think the easiest way is to test your UA creative first on the market and then see some does their player have a good result like their feedback so I want to play this game. I think this is fun. So which mean uh it has potential to thrive and then you just work with the publisher and to build again to test the day one version or day three version

wherever you like and then so I think it's a step by step first or initial soft launch test and then full launch I think the same uh principle happen is applied everywhere
it is about companies that have a proven game a proven strategy a proven success a commercial success
but it is fascinating now just chatting with you about the user experience in a miniame and you get the feeling that okay there are mechanics that could be transferred out to western companies they could learn maybe they're not going to go right in try but they can sort of like prime their game to be wechathat miniame ready yeah because you have to get there in steps it's great if you're a great large studio and you just have title and you're going to modify it But are there some mechanics in the west should be thinking about now because if they build them in that expansion later

might be easier and to top it off these mechanics are also obviously really popular. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to learn and to adapt them as well.
Yeah. Yeah. I I I think this is a great question. I have to say that most of the mini game player are new player they mini game is the first game they ever play because they haven't download the game for the app store. So these are only the first games
they play on on their phone. So mini game. So I think the design prophecy is that
you have to be for dummy. You have to be for dummy really. I mean like
well you know keep it simple. That's business strategy right the the most popular uh witch mini game is kind of like the loot boss RPG. Just uh nobody adventure. You just tap on the open the boss get some uh loose and then it's very simple. Just tap tap tap and then the number goes out and out. You don't have to think. Don't make your player think. So I think beautiful that mean make it more very accessible uh experience. Don't build very complex uh mechanic but you can put a complex mechanic after the first user experience

but make sure the first five minute is very easy to pick out easy to understand. I think the design philosophy apply to everywhere especially in the mini game because most of them never play a game before. If you make it like a candy crash, I think it's still too complicated for them to play candy crash.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just making just simply t and and and see the result and simply left or right things like that. So make sure the UX is super simple, super easy to understand. Uh if your Grammy understand, I think it's fine. If not, yeah, just make it more simple and make it more accessible for the mass audience. I think because W media game is not just for very niche audience, it's for m audience. So you have to make sure the game play is accessible but also you need to come out with a very complicated uh e economic design like the meta thing. You have to because that's where you build a long-term LTV. So I think uh this is very important

simple effort into the monetization mechanic that it evolves
over time. This is the best lesson we can learn for the we again.
What about exper you know we talk about keeping it simple but how much experimentation is there because there's always the urge that when everything is one way
then you have to go the other way. So now what does it look like in mini games the innovation when everything is very simple are they starting to get more complex?
Yeah it's not to getting uh very complex because like uh the bamb survivor it looks like tower defense. Yeah, but actually they have a 4x mechanic after 2 months. So I think very compressed uh in the long term because like even if very simple game like simple like nobody adventure just tap there but actually they have 20 features you need to understand. So there's a lot of us spend there over there because that's I mean the top players
bank survivors that's one of the ones with again the million the million a day
the million day because the top player

they they they spend a millions R&B and maybe the top number one player spend more than million dollar on the game. Start with a very simple idea and then you build a very complex meta system out of that and also you build a very social mechanic like the clan system the 4x1 like you know the Chinese people like to compete with each other. So I think the innovation is more about the meta system and also how you bring this accessible gameplay with the meta system compress meta system together and make it appealing to your audience. I think yeah I think there's innovation that we see here
and the innovation the playbook I mean it does travel it works in China it works in the west
what about the staying power and you've said before and I quote that the best studios treat UA and in re-engagement as one connected strategy now that is great because I'm in the process of uh writing a fullfunnel uh app playbook that looks

at that you know you need to connect everything and add your CRM so it's UA It's retargeting. It's CRM. I get it. That requires a lot of data, a lot of insights.
Working with partners, for example, you think about Google's adtech or other analytics solutions to manage that in those ecosystems. Um, how are developers using this? How are they understanding that this is the fuel? This is what powers the longer term retention. This is what has the staying power.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think staying power the word is very important if you want to threat in the current e ecosystem because you just cannot build a heat and then looking for the next one and then we you cannot just chase I think Google have a very uh great tools in terms of anal analytic and the and their app is just cheat your game and ser player journey not just there I just design again the UA department will take care about UA creative it's none of my business no in China we build UA in

because like last word you see the the wrongness shooting and then it's actually in the game on the on boarding so I think it's integrate our experience of the players so pay attention to your app creative the UA creative uh the the app quality is very important just cannot throw a fake ad or misleading ad maybe
we had that already
yeah but they actually put a fake air make it real in their game I think that's their evolution but like maybe a few years ago you still see the fake app and then I play a different game.
It was a different game.
Yeah. Yeah. It's very it hurting their user experience. So air quality is very important and also you make sure the app is the same part as your game. What they see is what they get and also what they experience. Yeah, I think this is quite important and you need to use their tool for AB test a lot. Like I say their top studio they like to do a lot of AB tags not just their their creative but also their player journey like they have to

cater their user experience based on different channel different segment like country. One example is that different country or player will see different flat in their base. I mean in last word I think it's a very small detail but I think it's quite important to do this instrumentation like the female one we see a difference color the male audience in their game. So I think it's quite important do a lot of AB test cementation there requires a lot of data and analytics things to do. I think we should take advantage of the what Google have lighter the yeah the tool is there just but the mindset is more important than the tool I mean you should have the mindset you think this is important but because I told you should do AB test so what should I AB test I already AB test my creative what where else can I do I think what about the never stops
and it's interesting because here we are in Vietnam and we were both at the event you know and part of it and uh talking with so many devel developers and it's

interesting that they said you know we have a success now we're going to take a look at segmentations it's that level of where we're at in the industry is to say it's great to do the AB testing for the creative now we need to AB test does it work with a certain audience and think about those audiences
also curious about what's important for small teams right these are small teams that we're talking with and we're connecting with at this event and you're a small team It's interesting also in the west when I'm talking with indies it's like you know hey we we've got our game we love our game we know our game
but it's the business skills it's the understanding of really the intricacies of data for one very much understanding that they need to connect in a loop it's not a funnel I mean all of this business knowledge and savvy what's it like here I mean are they is there the skills gap or where is the skills gap where do you see it in production ction, monidation, marketing, everything, all of the above.

Something else
I mean mainly in the UA side and the monetization side because in China we just uh like most western studio they are very talented. They are they are very creative. I would say they be a very fun mechanic but in China the case may be the difference but they they think in their monetization mindset first they have to make sure they have a meta system in place and they build a game play on top of it. Uh just think of a hab they they are very yeah all again their metas are quite similar like the equipment like the gacha you if you look through the template it's like a template the building f on the same template and now currently they evolving their template to 2.0 IO lighter uh we see in the WTO defender they have their score RPG now. So you never see the template uh in Survivor IO anymore because they decide to transition to their score RPG uh template. So in China the developer the mice is quite uh difference compared to the western. The

western they prefer to come out with something fun something is very uh easy to pick out fun to play. But in China they always think in their monetization first. I think there's a mental difference between how we design the game. So we already designed the game on top of the monetization system. We have to make sure that the system is in place. All I have to do is find the right mechanic on top.
Yeah. Put the fun on top of monetization. But I think the Chinese prefer monetization over the uh fun part a little bit. But in their western I think it's the opposite. So atization but also UA I met a lot of western audience they because they say uh my publisher will take care about the UA I don't have to worry about it and it's not the case you have to think in the UA in the first place you make sure the UA is your product how does the creative reach out to your audience how they experience the game after they download the game so I think good product is a good UA think about last word there I

think there a perfect example Well, they they not just not just just using a fake ally shooting everywhere and the the runner the the number game. They actually have that in the main game. I think it's quite fun to play through all the level. Prioritize the monetization first because that's where you build a sustainable uh ecosystem or portfolio thinking on TV.
Yeah. Just don't just chase heat because it's very hot. it is very difficult to chase here but just make sure you have the 16 in place so you can build very uh long sustainable business on top I think uh I think there's a uh
there's lessons for the west in that because it's not fun first it's mechanics
fun is important
fun is important but think monetization many in the west thought about monetization after the fun I've seen it I've heard it and I've talked to those developers let's look again at the big picture I mean here we are in Vietnam it is one of the top tier growth markets by

far. That's why we're here.
And Vietnam punching above its weight, projected to hit 1.6 billion.
Amazing
of uh revenue. So, it's getting it right. You know, it has speed, it has collaboration, has the skill set, obviously developers who understand it because look at the Hall of Fame coming. I'm excited to see.
How do you think it could become WeChat mini games? Could that become Vietnam's gateway to the China player base as well or vice versa? I mean, could that be the entry point for these up and coming studios?
Yeah, definitely because we already see some uh Vietnamese uh developers game already launched in the China's mini game market also have great result. I think it's not going to work because their ecosystem here like the Zalo is not ready for now. I think more about the vi have a lot of super like very fun casual game hybrid casual game they already have a proven match tree I think it's very easy for them to just work fire local Chinese publisher and help

them to localize the game a little bit and do to uh launch on the mini game market but the other way around I think it's uh not the same basically we just go to the app store
now but I think uh maybe in the near future there the eosystem
see a blockbuster Yeah. Yeah. For Vietnam like the the Zalo mini game. Maybe we see some more and more Chinese uh RPG game or very m game will thrive in the zalo mini game ecosystem. I I believe in the near future it will happen.
Exactly that we can see that movement. You can see that dynamic. Maybe Vietnam coming to China. Definitely West maybe thinking about bringing titles here or just adopting mechanics that their titles will be wechathat ready when the time comes.
Now you of course consult with major companies. So I'd like to stop with one piece of advice. Your piece of advice to them if you're saying you know this is your bold prediction. What do they need

to get right about the Chinese market? I think uh most people underestimate the the social part. I mean the social is quite important and you because uh for the uh most the western player they prefer to play the game by themsel I think it's okay not not to have a social just as long as the the game is fine enough but for in China people like to compete people like to show off at least you have should have a leaderboard to help them to compete with each other. So I think the most important thing is don't forget if you want to make sure your game launch in the witch mini game or mini game market make sure you have the social feature ready. It could be a maybe a ranking a classic turn PVP GBG
social is so key.
Social is so key in China because Chinese player they want to be the best in their friend. I think you know that's the key
recognition recognition social stat. I think it's quite important for them because every now and then I I get there

to me like I'm the number one in this ranking. Can you beat me? Okay, I will try. I will try. I think challenging is very important. Make make it a little bit challenging because these people love uh difficult. They they try to chase difficulty and also make sure once they done that you make sure they have the play to show off to share in the group to share with their friends. So
it makes a statement.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, so let's let's continue on the idea of a challenging bold statement. Your prediction, I won't hold you to it for 2026.
Maybe I make a a prediction similar to prediction maybe 3 years ago. I mean the mini game will be the go-to place for most of the Chinese development. Don't most people don't believe that. So I I going to say the uh for next year I I believe there will be more and less 10 game will be in their uh US Troing 200. I mean for the rich mini game because we already see a very uh excellent game spending 2 million per day on UA on the

mini game they're coming they're coming maybe next year they already proved their success in the WA mini game market and they are ready to expand to the western market especially for the T roing chart we are expect to see at least maybe 10 uh new title in the troing 200 uh in the US market so most of them I think will come for a any game.
We'll stay with games because Pocket Gamer loves games and we ask every guest and I won't make an exception to it. Even though we're on location in Vietnam, we always ask our guests two closing questions. Your favorite game you're playing right now that you're obsessing about, you can't put down and your favorite game of all time.
Okay,
this ought to be good.
I'm ready. Lemon, bring it on.
The first one because our studio is focused on the tower defense game only. So my uh currently I playing bamb survivor because bamb is a top it is yeah the top grossing game because the mechanic have a lot of mechanic there I think to keep player around because they

people play for years I we have a very I'm in the community of player community of bman survivor people chat about a lot of not just about gaming but share their life I think they have a very great thriving community because the game have a very complex design and also very long-term retention because BMA survivor is more successful than white out survivor in China. You need the white out survivor is already very successful in the world. So BM Survivor I think is currently we have a lot to learn for this game in terms of a game design in terms of UA because the UA creative is awesome.
You are a fan.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So B survivor number one uh currently all time I would say all time. Wow. That's a tricky question. I would say plants versus zombie because it's classic tow. I think it's a very classic classic game because I because I play maybe we just into the game during college I don't go
it stays with you.
Yeah. So I think there's their first I will keep playing recently. Yeah. So I

think yeah playing versus zombie both tower defense game. Well, Lemon, it was my first time meeting you in person and making your acquaintance, but yes, you will stay for me, the master of mini games, and I hope to continue the conversation. Until then, I hope you're right with your prediction. Very, very exciting times ahead.
Looking forward to
Thanks so much.
This show is all about how to do your job better, how to make an amazing game, how to market it, and you have a say. So, if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on, then we would love to hear from you.
We want to hear from you. We want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness. So, if you have any suggestions for us, if you have any feedback for us, you can always get in touch. You can email us at podcastpocketgamer.biz. You can find us on Twitter @pgbiz. And you can reach out to us through the

pocket gamer.biz website. If you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts, you can find them at pocketgamer.bizmpodcast. And we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows.
And we've got you covered on all the major platforms. So subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said, look for us on YouTube. If you want to read it, hey, you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website.
Tune in again for the next edition of the pocket gamer.biz Biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future. Until then, I'm Brian Baglo.
I'm Peggy Ansalts. And that's a wrap until next week.