MAU live 2023 - Growths Gems, Creative testing processes, UA for apps vs games!

hey nice okay hello there we go there you go okay let's see let's see if we can uh yeah we can untangling all those cakes get all all of all the people in are We There we need to resize it make it smaller no oh why the lens I think it needs to be more back you need to you need to put in the Bible where you see it actually so it's fine no it's it's live already so you can just here yeah you can just yeah you can just put it yeah where you yeah if you move those two here a little further okay yep yeah that's perfect I think that will work amazing thank you of course right now let's see all that yeah let's see what happens first time we are doing it actually yeah this is gonna fall we don't need it now what are you talking about careful the cable all right yep all right perfect I mean might be cutting you off just

that's fine anyway yeah it's okay it's okay it's okay it's like it's a that's what you do when you're alive I got it I got it you're live perfect thank you very much so um are you recording already okay perfect okay perfect amazing so we need to start the sound anyway okay we are already live okay this is like a bonus bonus bonus bonuses so here we are backstage at the next two and a half Gamers episode what are y'all gonna be recording with Silva and we're about to start uh we've got a nice little crew here and we're looking forward why do we have this [ __ ] weird right weird voice it's a pregame is my backstage for each

voice okay perfect oh backstage already um we're already live so that's fine okay guys perfect foreigners as far as like your names um yeah titles company Etc et cetera uh if you want to do that let's start off with you guys and just uh yeah we're gonna go okay all right let's go okay camera two rolling amazing Hollywood hello why are you hanging so unprofessional I know why are you

hanging man [Music] it's putting pressure on the on the things no I put it on the floor okay [Music] okay that's fine anybody's watching they're having a great time in Europe and the thing is like behind the scenes hey all right go for it that's the traditional intro I can't do the traditional intro because the intro is already happening in case this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast two and a half Gamers a live session from Mau hey [ __ ] amazing and this is live session for you so you are listening and watching this on YouTube I hope I hope I was actually happy God we'll see what happens so this is gonna be special episode we

have silver in here we have Felix and myself mate so let's start with you the introduction wow I'm Sylvan who the [ __ ] are you I'm just a watcher I'm just a fan and I've been invited to a podcast I watch a lot so I'm here I was not gonna decline that um I'm Sylvan I work at Babel it's a language learning app subscription app um and I also run Grove jams which is a newsletter where I share insights from my favorite podcast and doing how Gamers yeah there's a love inside Gamers but everything accurate the episodes I watch them I go through hours of content and then I share the main insights and what speaks the most to me nice hot and we've talked about this when we were getting here like how did you end up in New York in New York uh so I created I co-founded a creative agency back in 2012. and we

had from France and we had a lot of plans in the US so I moved here because we opened a branch in the U.S and then well things went a little South uh it was I don't know as you usually do as they usually do when you go to the us we were not we were not ready so even though we had lots of plants in the US I don't think it was the smartest move it was hard to find creative talents here well like affordable creative Talent compared to to France and it's just yeah it just wasn't that good of a timing okay so let's talk a bit about growth gems I think like wait no no you need to say we need to say one important thing because we always say this is a 4 AM discussion why but wait do you guys usually record it for you I'm sorry it's only Vibe because so why we can't why we ended up English podcast is that

usually we ended up in this conversations at 4am or like 3 A.M or they were like those are the con like discussions and conversations you want to begin because not everybody spells all the secrets that's where you learn everything those 15-minute conversations at 4am is where you learn like enough yeah the ball is going for like a moment because you end up at the conference like the talks are [ __ ] like nobody shares anything and then you get hammered with all all the people and then in like in the morning for you like hey so we are doing this we are doing that like oh okay makes sense I will try that that's why we ended up it's like 4am discussion live and it's 4 a.m in Europe in Europe in the morning so we're [ __ ] doing it so everybody is asleep okay thank you very much for watching you can continue sleeping anyway so maybe you have a very good clothes it's amazing

already that's perfect that's perfect should we talk also about what we call a two and a half Gamers then we're talking about 4 am 12 for discussion but we can there's I mean there's two takes on it yeah so one question everybody does one of them is that I am a game on consoles and they game on PCS Remo and mate so they look down on me as a second class citizen so the other half yeah or the fact that mache started his high school career as a Napoleon impersonator on the other point of view so it's fine but he wanted to ask about the growth chance yeah because basically the growth gyms I I spoke to both matcha and Rima when you started putting it out and in the story I was feeling a lot like anger but I was angry at myself for not coming up with the idea because you're the first one to

basically synthesize all the knowledge and it's such a beautiful simple idea and I'm annoyed that I didn't do it first or come up with it wasn't the question yeah that's a compliment here comes the question okay how did you come up with that um I think back when I was uh at the agency I was already watching some talks um from conferences and sharing in the blog uh uh like the main insights yeah I'll be fine so I was that was the very beginning and then after that what happened once I you know moved transitioned out of that is when you listen to podcast episodes when you watch or talk there's so much stuff that you don't care about like this entire intro like I don't give a [ __ ] so I know yeah right there's nothing out of it like people man that's why I said always in the in the show notes and in

the foreign [Laughter] forever so I decided to extract the main inside and share that now the problem with that is now that I'm doing all those yeah I'm doing what I didn't want to do but nobody was doing it so I did it and now I'm running with it because yeah I'm enjoying it I'm learning a lot there's a thing like people want to just you know they're lazy so that's what we did in the last episode when I showed like all the creatives from like top top companies and people said like oh I started sending me messages like oh well it's perfect because you know it's great inspiration so people laugh when you do their job

for them that's awesome information yeah you go back to like whoever and you say look yeah we should try that yeah so we synthesize information put it on the podcast sylvanian synthesizes our synthesize information it becomes like a mentor yeah it's a never-ending look then you need someone to like detail it yeah and then you put it yeah you put it in the chat GPT and then you hear a fact okay so what happens so the growth terms like what's the most popular gem you've seen or the most insightful that we got the most messages from is it UA is it admonization is it creative oh Google yeah I mean yeah USC chips is is something just because anywhere you're gonna have a black box people are trying to find ways to deal with that black box right so I think I think that's one of them I work for a subscription ad so I also watch a lot of things about subscription apps yeah um particularly so there's lots of insights that come around that

um you know onboarding optimization payroll optimization monetization pricing like all sorts of topics I really like so I consume a lot of content about that yeah um I'd say I'd say yeah monetization is a big one um I I don't know that this one popular it's not like someone sharing a thousand times yeah one of the gems I shared the the uh all the monetization all the monetization thing works yeah it works pretty well people are interested about it because you know because that's the thing like nobody shares the like that inside clearly okay so that this is what I do you should do it like this it's all always covered it's fluff like you said no yeah usually I think what I like is when you start seeing the patterns between you know different people talking about the same thing you know the link between monetizing hard but at the same time uh having enough free users to uh to keep growing like how do you monetize for

people that don't want to subscribe so what's the difference between the UA and the game you gaming UI because you've seen [ __ ] so and in the end as well you've seen Shin in the in terms of like the growth gems I think I think it's harder for us to advertise you know on ad networks yeah you know the main ones and and it's it's just harder to find the people that are really ready to to pay because with subscription you get I'm talking about subscription essentially you have that flow right that you need people to be able to pay or to commit to at least [Music] five dollars ten dollar per month and you also have that ceiling where you're gonna have to buy the highest tier it's going to be what let's say 100 bucks a year and and in gaming you start from like getting one dollar and then gaining yeah getting more so I think it's harder to

get signal essentially on some of these ad networks and and most of them say you can but it when when you try it it's not it's not that easy no it's not that easy I mean like if you think about it the campaign optimization if you compare the like the UA and the apps inside and the game side is almost like almost the same you just need to think about different events yeah right so if you use free trial or subscription but free trial it's easy subscription is like [ __ ] like long very long to fetch anything between that you kind of like uh see that yeah another use yeah I mean the combos work right yeah there's a problem and you say that for for gaming also right like the the proxy or the the predictive it doesn't even work yeah you know you'd say that it doesn't work the free trial you it works to some extent but you also yeah yeah with those platforms especially the Google The Meta you get what you're asking for the trial and then a bunch of people might answers

so you know you do what you know you do a combo of your free trial plus some engagement to hopefully have you know that's that's like no address campaigns right on the no AdWords [Music] yeah I need I need to say that I was well not I was really wrong but he was really wrong about that Legend of slime yeah but you know why I was wrong I know I I know so we have second favorite data tools yeah yeah we have some wait what's the story about so we had this um Legend of slime review and uh we said basically that they are earning 70 ads Revenue yeah on top of what they are earning at the moment okay which is 7 million on in-apps it's like oh wow man because they were like front loading everything and with apps like ads and it was looking really well then I was talking to them like it's not the case ah okay

all right then like all the external tools we use like suggested like okay this is the case right yeah this is the case and it's like oh well okay so my assumption would be based on these numbers like they're earning this much money they they use address they had but they don't use ad robots they use okay oh well I can't say oh because it's live exactly how it's fine oh so yeah they use address but nevertheless yeah the address is one part of the the equation but like the events and the combination is really important I'm glad you said it because like nobody believes me like why would you say like on paper it looks so well so people that actually fired the free trial then eventually they subscribe Maybe people that finish level 50 and level of 56 they eventually purchased

maybe it doesn't doesn't mean that if you buy people that actually finish level 56 they will actually purchase because like what you try what you get in the campaign optimization that's what you get that's how the algorithm works it's like it's it's so frustrating I mean the roast part like you can do roast the the you know on but not on all platforms not all platforms are equipped to do that the thing is some people think that you know they're running like instead of Ross campaigns they're running the retention campaigns like this like level 60 whatever and it's like oh well we're growing daus okay how about growing Revenue well we need to grow the Dau to a certain point and then we will earn money it's like here at the tips of how it works it's not how it works anymore yeah that's not how it works anymore yeah it's a downturn now you got it yeah it's like money no it's like it's very challenging to actually get drugs from

the like retention oriented campaigns because like you said like you're getting the players that are that are actually getting to level 56 and not eventually pay that's it yeah it's also have a limited window to observe that exactly I think more like a subscription options you'd be using ads why because it's untapped Revenue potential much yeah like it makes a lot of sense Babble the hazards right we don't according to the data that we saw which they're making about we like 40 to 50K a day but on like the app side like that's a lot of AD Revenue yeah because they're the big publisher on the app side okay yeah yeah different strategies there uh between being different there's only one

strategy make money yeah they could make way more money if they wanted to uh we just we just have more of a like learning oriented uh strategy they are more of a game oriented strategy and and like they do things incredibly well um which is all right differently because we're just a different company so you know you have to choose how you differentiate yourself is it that you think Bible thinks ads are dirty and there might be a little bit of that to be honest like I don't think so yeah like I mean I think in subscription apps that there is some like stigma around yeah there is ads and around like this is It's Not only quality it's not it's also it's not premium uh driven games like yeah and I think it's like it's cancer like why would you do ads because like that decreases the quality of the game and the premium feel it's like no it doesn't if that's no it doesn't like that's three percent of users usually pay if there's a mindset of 2014

numbers in gaming if you get like three percent conversion it's like you're gonna be you can get 10 10 whatever the Social Casino but no it's not about Social Casino so you can get 10 real gaming real games it's it's you're just misleading people now misleading yes because because you can get 20 conversion but you just need to play around with the the price point yeah that's it so if you put ten dollars you will get lower conversion if you put two dollars or 99 Cents you will get the higher conversion who cares who cares that's why I'm making money sure but then like increase the frequency but then then if that like that you need to run a B test anyway so if if that like screws up all your economy afterwards then you're fine no I'll agree with that like you test everything right like if you want to test out

it works yeah I mean it's not that easy right you need a critical skill like you need some kind of volume because I mean the key to AdSense you need volume right so if you don't have a high Dau you're not going to make any money right because you need the Impressions so tell me how much volume for subscription app you'd say you know before it becomes that's a good question so of course that's a good question that's a great question like once you get past like the 30 50k mark on Dau so then you got to think about like how many Impressions you can throw that user base it's a lot harder on subscription apps to show five to ten like you're doing gaming ads on rewarded ads yeah so sometimes you can show you know maybe two or three interstitial ads and that's easy enough so basically if you think about it so if you said basically one more time and then I'm gonna throw you out of the window so good luck it's been showing three interstitial ads uh in the U.S that usually will earn you anywhere between 15 to 18 cents a day in

antarcta so if you assume kind of the loss in retention that means that over day 14 basically oh somewhere anywhere between 30 to a dollar in uh and a player LTD or user LTV so you know it can be meaningful but you need to get up into high numbers like and have an imtow that's higher than four or five otherwise it doesn't really like impact the bottom line at all so what other categories where you see that working for athlete for non-games like utilities is that utility is like the big Revenue driver that's the one that's always been the biggest publisher on the publisher side it drives a lot of Impressions but also language like Duolingo is one of the kings in yeah because of the like gaming remarkets exactly there were other apps gaming

mechanics that keep people coming back Booth is also another one yeah redecore yeah it's a game it's okay yeah I want to see more analysis yeah but we would you know say a lot of [ __ ] about it because we don't have like that many experience with that I mean we oh it's a growing space it is it is I work with like few apps here and there but not I'm I don't feel as strong as uh with game just you know to go in try to analyze 30 of my clients are gaming non-gaming so yeah I mean for me 20. ish it's not I mean typically you see people in gaming going to apps much more than than the other ways so I think like there's so much inspiration from gaming on yeah from organization to UA so like if you master games as you like him after I mean for for UA I mean it's not that different it's just yeah about the different

events the events yeah that that's it and maybe different creatives no except that like it's the same thing that's what I was talking about like the web free same [ __ ] thing you just need to think about like different campaign optimizations different tracking Solutions and that's it I know nothing about we're free it's kind of a Dying yeah [Music] there you go no one uses it anymore yeah I just went okay so no way free let's let's talk about like web browser or PC marketing it's the same thing it's just different campaign optimization methods again events so you don't have mobile SDK you have pixels Facebook pixels Google analytics server to server and all these like different things again same thing you just need to use events yeah you just need to understand the context exactly yeah exactly it's the same concept exactly what's King is the tracking yeah signal and then the

creators right yeah exactly so like it's very basic way of saying I like it it's very easy to explain it like that I know right get your tracking right get your brains right yeah yeah it makes the sound so easy I think it's easy of course that one is easy yeah game design is easy everything is easy it's fine that's how it is like now we are in the Mau of Vegas talking about like how life is easy this is a ridiculous place to record I know I know I know I know I know right perfect I think it's like it looks so I love this conference because it's a good content honestly last year I had like zero dogs that I attended five is good they're online after okay I watch everything in 2x like you sound like Chipmunks all the time it's the first time I hear you like at normal speed that makes sense because I was like how do you manage to consume this is a 2X okay all right so I was I was listening

when you start talking about a monetization sorry did you switch off can I use some insights on like exploding 75 slow way down yeah I'm not sure I got it yeah if you put yakub on 2X and you're [ __ ] because you talk so fast always yeah hope you're sleeping well how are you sleeping well you sleeping well because we have another camera over there so yeah yeah can't forget about the cameras of course that's fine I had to ask something that's just the beer has anyone ever like with any of the girls rooms you've share shared have has anyone ever been angry about you oh yeah yes yes for you guys it's easy because you're the producers right yeah but you have other people that goes on other shows or on conferences so yeah I try to always give credit in the LinkedIn post or wherever I share in the newsletter 100

credit link and everything um but I like I had one person at once felt like they were taking taken out of context I don't think that was true I think it was essentially a quote that I took but it was involving the App Store and it was a comment about you know going to the web and bumbling and like whatever oh that's that's pretty dice yeah it was a it was a No No More Drama uh mostly people are like excited about it they like it and just sometimes people just don't share it as much as I'd like but that's all oh man so please share it yeah sometimes I I I don't I even forget about like sharing like [ __ ] on my my posts your stuff yeah because like it's like sometimes like I watch concerts so no I'm not too much I get so many

in about like messages on LinkedIn then it's just it's lost yeah of course I mean but then like that's the thing too like there's it's like 80 percent I do maybe 20 of promotion and 80 of the content it probably should be the you know no worries no the opposite no no just promote the [ __ ] I mean you do you you promote well we found the schedule we found the schedule we find the schedule and we stick to the schedule and if you're not like stupid then you you'll see yourself I I post on Monday sorry [Laughter] back to back two people jokes aside but now that's how it works I mean it's a golden noise like okay so growth chance I'm still angry I can come up with it like how do you find like the

time for actually consume so much it's time consuming I wake up early I wake up at 6am yeah welcome to my world I have a kid I have a cup I don't have a kid okay you have a kindergarten yeah exactly yeah so and I do that essentially before before and then you know Saturday Sunday if needed make my 6 a.m wake up yeah exactly [ __ ] thing and then it's free time it's rare it's really rare I mean I I do all the post-production when I was I'm supposed to be sleeping so it instead of using this excuse to get drunk right so it's quite you know it's rewarding for you right what do you mean you don't drink Margaritas when you do the post-production no I don't drink I drink Margaritas all day long unrelated come on like oh it's no no okay so before working okay

okay should we wrap it up no I want to hear more about like uh like how all right what can we talk about how people do creatives what kind of channels people have from the girls gym you can you can think about it and then that will take it from there okay I mean on the creative side yeah I am not going to teach you anything with ugc like in terms of you should imagine no no I'm gaming UTC as being King you tell the story that I use this app yeah it helps me drink more Margaritas whatever I don't care you don't know that I know I will download the lab immediately I know but like that's that translates to the actual audience what's crazy on on t-tocks specifically is if the app is not mentioned if it's like if it's just shown yeah and there's no name no no

brand like people ask for it in the comments and so really and the algorithm you know you know it's a typical thing where you want you say like show your brain within the first three seconds and everything but if you don't if you like just casually show it and people are impressed right yeah yeah and they're like what app is that like what is it it helps with alcohol right yeah and then the the Creator comments on it and say oh this is the app and that's perfect and they're like yeah the algorithm just the caches on so some of the some of the creators yeah I've heard a couple people talk about that uh where they actually try to do more of uh you know influencer this is my daily routine thing you know at 8am I do this at 10 am I do that and then I do the app you know like people what was the app you know it triggers the the comments thank you like comments are like that engagement I think that's a undervalued part so if

you're uh if you have a strong like position also and people get angry at you um yeah we've had an at once that like people were getting angry it was performing great yeah no seriously we had to take it out but it was doing great because people are commencing there's always the discussion like if the players actually like or dislike what you have in the in in the creatives makes a difference if you you know if it brings us why should you care but then if it damages the brand like yeah well okay I know that's the balance always but like so many comments it worked so well for me on Facebook as well on Tick Tock as well if people start commenting and engaging with the with the creatives work so well because positive feedback from the algorithm yeah well you see people tagging other people like that's

yeah that's cool like what I started to do as well it's taking the all the social media content that all the games have on on Facebook or Tick Tock with the highest engagement okay put it in in the UI it works so well works so so well yeah like the organic content repurpose it for yeah exactly yeah because they all you know that content already had like kind of like a final everybody loved it all the engagement so they will perform quite well on the UA front yeah it's like you let other people figure out exactly exactly figure out content you see what works and then like a form of creative testing yeah if you know yeah absolutely and then there's like cards exactly yeah you can try that as well yeah you can connect it to the to the UA quite quite easily turn like so many ways but not many people like to talk about it

the the spark artsy thing I've never tried myself but I tried to work so well yeah oh it's the same thing as I mentioned well with the the social media content it's just like it's native so you can just connected it easily on Facebook you need to just take the post add it in the UA campaign manually which is not ideal but it still works quite well because we did all the like pre-screening on on Tick Tock you just it's like spare cats you will just connect it in in the campaign right away which is amazing amazing it's great how do this creatives so I have questions for you okay yeah let's reverse I actually I'm not really in the know of how we tested on the left side of acquisition now um I need to cut it right there right here then but no but I'm very interested

in the creative space yeah 3D background so uh creative fatigue right one of the big topics Uncle James I see it all the time yeah um when when what do you what are the like the free metrics you look at to see if if you have a creative problem if you need more CTR and view CDR is one CPI is another one and Ros is the third one and then that is IPM as well so but give me five then I but I look at it in the level of like three or four days so if I see a declining Trend okay then I see the creative fatigue is happening and then then there is the the frequency also happens okay I was gonna ask about the three last reasons again what's a bad frequency

Range Five oh [ __ ] that's way higher than I thought it would be honestly like everything like one two three is like still okay and on what uh what time time period right because when you change that time period that frequency goes up automatically two to seven of the 14 days yeah so one two three on like one one week to two weeks of seven to fourteen days okay that's fine if you have five one one one week to four or two weeks like that's it I've seen accounts where they had him frequency I was like what the [ __ ] are you doing seriously you should be changing these these creatines like three months ago seriously like like do you do you even look at this if you keep putting new creative I don't care about the frequency at all when I'm changing because I have the

process of changing creatives like almost every one week or every two weeks because I already know like the credit have it's happening it's just like okay [ __ ] it like I'm I I have to change the creatives anyway so I was like okay I look at the frequency okay is it like side kpi but then I'm looking at like I said like the CTR which is coming down CPI is coming up the Ross it's kind of like somewhere there but the euro is going to take forever to like on iOS but I have benchmarks always like day one day three day seven even on iOS if you have day one can help it really can help so that's that's how I look at things and we discussed it with Miss play like earlier today like what's what's the kpi for the creative winner [Music] finally finally someone said it in fact like

you can have IPM like [ __ ] like 550 if it doesn't make money nobody cares well I think in subscriptions you have like things before yeah of course yes trial of course but again if it doesn't make money like it yeah it's a relevant and uh I also had like different creative like testing setups where I looked at IPM and then the IPM the best IPM I put into business as usual it's failed miserably because you didn't get any spin because on Facebook or tiktok or wherever the one or two creatives get all the spend all the time I was like so you can test whatever okay so follow-up question yeah and you stop me I should stop asking questions no you should yeah you you okay I have to ask questions if you want to ask questions I will just yeah that's the way there's the door where's the door you ever creative start taking uh all

this pain yeah you have essentially a creative yeah like what do you do next who's that creative like what's your thought process one of the next steps so that you milk it so a few things different hook like changing the first three seconds always then slapping a ugc on top of it because why not okay can I interject yes you say change the first three seconds yes did you change the first three seconds once you're changing like the core of what was making that creative successful and BS maybe now it's a part of the testing if you change it fully or you can change something about it oh so multiple iterations first it's just changing the whole first three seconds to see if like the hook is the the thing that actually works okay then oh I I usually do like five iterations of the winner like at the

same time so then the second iteration is changing like a little bit of the the hook just trying to put something in the first second all changing the first second then different length then different CPA at the end and then uh also the ugc I mentioned and then also different Sound and Music people underestimate even on meta yes we talked about it yes like there is like a lot of people that are actually not sound on but there is the other fire and you can convert quite easily all the stories people's names if you think of think about it Audience Network you play a game you play a game with the sound on there you go it's like the sound and music makes a difference like like a very big difference seriously a creative talk today huh I know right

yeah sorry I have more but another go go on yeah yeah um what about do you when do you work on primary text you know headlines I don't give a [ __ ] so you just in terms of text yeah the text and the and the actual CTA in terms of the button in the button I have play game always play game I tried insta I tried download nobody cares okay I think in subscriptions like I've seen I've seen people play around with being still sign up and purchase right so yeah depending on if you want to send the signal that it's going to be a paid product you know you cannot buy now if you're a creative that has a an offer in it you have buy now so like you can you can play with it to kind of filter the people you're going after so that you don't get a [ __ ] kind of downloads that never gonna convert two purchases that's the thing like think about it if you open up a store

how much text do you read actually when you open up an app the first two sentences maybe yeah the same thing applies to to the ad see you are attracted to the visual not due to text so you can put you can put like hey like boobs and whatever no nobody nobody cares so you put like five six different you just lived there exactly leave them there so I accidentally put French text in the US campaign nobody cared no one complains see no nobody cared CPI is the same CTR is the same like like literally like nobody nobody even like read [ __ ] text I was in French like I was like whoops Americans love French the French accents

[Laughter] um okay so I'm a subscription ad I want to try uh hats yeah we talked about the kind of the volume pressure of the Eau um like what service what other ways so the biggest risk you always have is retention so what drops first is retention basically retention retention is what you lose and also what you can lose is conversions to subscriptions so that's usually when you're dealing with apps you're dealing with a subscription team and they're always worried because the thing that I usually say to subscription apps is the easiest thing to get impressions is to give up part of your subscription like of Premium content and put that behind

an ad wall or you can give users kind of a taste of what the subscription will be like or you've reward it yeah yeah rewarded is kind of the best way to monetize your users and it's the thing that works the high that gets the highest ecpms highest because it's opt-in and you get the least risk on retention so another easy one that a lot of you know utility apps do is interstitials and it works quite well lately also Apple Finance is quite good also for apps so that's an app isn't that bad no it's not bad at all no yeah but then Google yeah Google's own is pushing it it's their ad format then you have to choose between okay do I show the paywall on Appleton uh we don't but I know some apps do like or do I show an ad on Apple thing yeah so I'm not trade-off I'm working with the chat AI app right now and then what we did was that the first so that it was a remote ad that you can watch for every time you uh prompt the AI to ask something okay and then what we did was we annoying

yeah it's annoying right so we made it possible that you could watch three rewarded ads in a row to build up credits so you got encouraged to watch three rewarding ads on first app open and then we look we saw that basically most users converted watched three ads and then an impact subscription like subscription rates at all so it was all incremental Revenue okay I guess you can also like build up that frustration where you like super frustrating yeah I'm I have to watch that to use it and it's an app I use a lot so I might as well buy the subscription but it's also the thing I say to when I start working with the subscription-based like apps in particular is you don't treat your user base as uniform you look at and you segment it like what gaming companies do you can segment by Geo you know for a fact that in gaming like some if you're a small company like not everybody you want to do ads but you can't take them in what then well that then exactly what I said

you've got to be creative about how you do it exactly what I said with the chat app like encourage users and that's the best way okay so the best way to really do it but like really like placement exactly creative placements or you give up one other thing I've done on a on a photo like sharing app where you could upload pictures and you can see where your baby would look like kind of quirky fun app but what we could do then is like the first time you upload and you get a picture down you can remove the watermark if you download an image if ever rewarded that and then they didn't even think of that like oh we should have a watermark and you're like okay and then you can be creative around it right so that's the basic way but if you have the Dau you can actually segment users based on yeah how long they've been in the app that's also another thing so start showing these restitutional ads on day three for example yeah I think one reason it's not more popular is also that premium field no maybe the premium field but also the five premium Phil Collins exactly it's like just so much you can play around with even just with subscriptions yeah and like low hanging fruits between you

know onboarding and payroll and post on voting that you know like you kind of need to tackle these first before you think about the 90 of people that don't pay yeah like I don't know do you yeah I mean when you yeah when you see any uh that subscription base unless they really have their [ __ ] together there's always you know blowing fruits that you can spot and you're like okay I could like you they should try that yeah and so there is always like low hanging fruit like what what is the long long hanging fruit always yeah essentially in in terms of on defense in terms of onboarding and personalization uh payroll and then if you have a certain volume the kind of uh tears you know subscription lengths that you that you sell yes of joy and at which price like all those things you

can get some pretty big wins so it feels odd to start with the ads if you still have like all that too that's the discussion of this okay oh wow should we should we do this or should we just you have to focus right that's right I know but you need to pick the battles like but how do how how do you make the decision if you pick the bet on the future side or just go to ads and explore that way I think it depends on your like the stage you're at right if you're early stage and you're gonna copy yeah popular subscription apps and you're gonna follow best practice and when you change something you're gonna go hard you're not gonna ABS because you don't have enough traffic and and then you're gonna keep doing that and when you're at the growth stage and you probably have other problems because you're just trying to find channels instead of finding unlike optimizing your monetization and then once you have your channel mix kind of set up and you're growing all that then you start looking into the additional monetization I think from what you're saying and between the

Dau and and the focus part like you do that once you are at a stage level but sometimes I'm sure it's not from yeah from Real Estate I know for if I do longer than start by adding reward ads but Dad yeah but they started free they started with ads from the start yeah I think they started doing it when they hit some like certain level of scale yeah 100 yeah so which apps are doing this well besides yeah Duolingo kahoot read the core we should argue that it's not like it's not a gate what's your name chord really cool yeah those are the three probably I would say or something it's a game that was bought by play Tikka for 600 million dollars but then you also have these utility apps on Android that you never really thought of that are making you know 250k a day they're only on Android it's like oh yeah flashlight app or yeah most

probably always turkey yeah for some reason like they figured this [ __ ] out yeah they're pretty good in apps like they they always launch an app and it takes like 50 60k a day and I would like mostly Android both and I was like what the [ __ ] is happening here excuse like how how can how can you do this would you say that a high volume of Android like installs or share now makes you crying for ads no I was in the discussion about oh well we should add the ads for India and Brazil I think that's not worth anything yeah you're gonna earn five euros it's like oh so like ecpm is on rewarded in India tends to be around like two dollars banners and Banners banners is worth next to nothing okay like there's a misconception like everybody thinks that oh we will put ads only two three or

four countries and we earn money like no okay that's not how it works because there's based on conversion right so like ecpm is based on the performance of the ads in your game you need to have people that exist if they don't convert and pay they're not worth anything yeah but then that's counterintuitive because when you think about those uh campaigns right like they're supposed to be primed for returns where people don't really well that's kind of subsidized with IEPs as well right it's not only ads it's no it's only ads if they don't buy anything those users so otherwise only buys on the ad Revenue value from the mediation you can get to back to Google it's true that I always have us versus the rest of the world and then the rest of the road Works quite well but only because I put really high Target through us go so you filter out all the old [ __ ]

which is I mean Google which is what he was explaining with uh the the cpms for interstitials yeah before Google will always find a way to like exactly I know right and I know just what you asked I know Thomas petite would be my French uh he would he would love to be in this discussion I know we've got a bit over time man over time who we need to get this man back here come on come back come here come here all right yeah the Cameo guy because we were talking and he was laughing and he's thinking about it 5am in Europe right yeah crazy they got their own language thank you man thank you cheers we'll see you next time see you

next time next time next time sorry for going over time man can you get me that okay we're too close and Alive there's two people hey