Insights on AI, China and EU regulation from RovioCon and Slush 2025 | Week in Mobile Games podcast

[music] Hello and welcome to the pocket gamer.biz podcast week in mobile games where we discuss the week's news and hopefully provide some insights. I'm Craig Chapel, head of content at pocketgamer.biz and with me today as always is Aaron Assel, our news editor. How's it Aaron Aaron? What you been up to?
Yes, all good, thank you. Um, I've had to crack out a warmer jumper this week. The temperatures really dropped. But, um, other than that, I had quite a quite an eventful weekend actually. I, um, got invited, someone at the the gym, obviously guessed from my long hair that I might be into kind of heavy music. Had a spare ticket going for a metal gig. So, I ended up going with him over to to Bristol last weekend.
Oh, wow. and saw a band called Orbit Culture. Um, which is like I think they were Swedish like Death Metal. It was

quite heavy stuff.
Oh, wow. Your ears are still ringing.
Yeah. And um so it was cuz I do like um heavier stuff, but um kind of progressive rock is really my cup of tea. Metal was more of a teenage thing and I've still just got the hair from it. So [snorts] um so that was quite good fun. It was like a standing one as well, so I was trying to like not accidentally end up in the mosh pit. Um, they're quite fun to observe to be. I don't really enjoy being in them that much. Um,
you don't like getting just knocked about.
No, no. I tend to prefer to kind of keep to myself and not have loads of sweaty people touching me. It It was It was quite amusing. But the guy that I went with was straight in the mosh pit the whole like the whole concert and he was driving me home afterwards so I was hoping he wasn't going to be too badly. [laughter]
All right. Thanks Aaron. Uh as for myself, I I've just been uh traveling.

Uh I've been at Roio Con and Slush somehow my first time ever at both these events and I've been to Helsinki loads of times over the past 15 years really for various events. a lot of it. Obviously, Pocky Gamer Connect Helsinki related. I' never been to these. Roio was great. Really, really good talks there. I'll go into those shortly. And Slush was Slush was just interesting cuz it was like I know it's big, but it is so busy in there. And it's like being in a nightclub doing business is how I would describe it. It's really dark. There's lots of lights. And I imagine it would all look completely different once the lights really bright lights are turned on. You know that kind of like, oh, it's the end of the night. We better go kind of kind of vibe. Yeah, it was good. I was going to show uh for our visual for our visual listeners. I went to the Roiocon VIP party and there was this occasionally they had this dancer in there and uh I don't know don't know

if you could see this. I can only describe it as like the zen the xenomorph in alien go dressing [snorts] up for disco is how I would describe the look.
Yeah, I can see that
they were very good at dancing. It was really good fun. So, I was only there for a couple days and then I got an early flight this morning. I'm still going. I think I'm like I feel like I'm like a child at the moment when they don't know that they're tired or they do know they're tired so they so they get more energy is that kind of vibe that I think I'm going through. So, I think I'm just going to crash suddenly. Um, hopefully without all the screaming. So, yeah. Um, we'll jump into it. As always, quick shout out. So, we got Pocket Gamer Connects London January 19th to 20th. Our biggest show of the year, which better about probably about 3,000 people. We've actually got an extra I don't know if this is officially announced. We got like a we will still be at the brewery but we also have some extra space at I believe it's the barbecue this year where we're going to do a trans media summit and the apps

business summits which is bit some non-gaming stuff so you can kind of which kind of crosses a divide right so you you'll learn from non-gaming this kind of a space talk about some of the trends there and also how like games is being adapted for that so we'll have a lot more to announce over the coming months about that and also don't forget We recently released our top 30 Mina game makers list. Please do check that out. It's really interesting. Right, so without further ado, we're going to jump into some news. Firstly, I was going to do some takeaways from Roia and Slush. I'm not going to say I'll do this. I'll be quick because I never am with these things. So, sorry Aaron, just buckle in. So, so when you first go into Slush, it has the slogan for the event, big banner outside, also next to a bunch of flames that pop up, which is kind of cool. And the slogan is still doubting Europe, go to hell, which is kind of which is clever again for visual listeners like that. No one can read that. Never mind. But um so has that. So still doubting

Europe, right? And then the idea is that you shouldn't doubt Europe. So it was kind of surprising that literally right off the bat of the event, the presenters come out and then they start saying like how good Europe is. So obviously that's the point of the event. It's a big I guess people don't know slush big tech show for Europe basically, right? Lots of investors in town, lots of startups trying to find investment. That's basically the pitch of the event. and they come out and they're like talking it up, but they're also like there's like a warning in there and and they outright basically saying like but this is all at risk by European regulation. Like how dare they regulate things. Then there was another talk by Atomico who I believe do it every year but this one was like pretty politically charged I would say. So they do a report on like the state of like European tech and investment and at the same time as saying kind of how amazing things are there lot of unicorns in Europe was it

there's an AI startup Lovable which I think was that last year's show and this year's show it's like grown dramatically to like I think it was 200 million ARR and and Lovable is like I think you can use it to it's like an AI it's like an AI platform that you can use to build apps and build businesses on top of and so but yeah anyway so and within that they're just like keep talking about but this amazing future that we could have and I think it was literally like regulation threatens like trillions of trillions in in like GDP which is odd I think but anyway okay it was all threatened by EU regulation and we've previously had illapan before this like sound the alarm about the digital fairness tax which if it went through in like worst case scenario Rio, it would have a dramatic effect on how mobile games monetize and therefore destroy a lot of value in the European mobile games industry, right? And then there were some other a lot of other regulations. They they even did like a

call to for people to sign up to this thing which was uh basically trying to tell the EU like please like cut some regulations so we can compete with the US and China because without that we're not on a level playing field is was the pitch basically and they need that to attract investment etc which all kind of does make sense but it was also just a bit strange that the show got so super political and I I was not ready for that. So yeah, everyone's mad at Europe was was [laughter] sorry the tech industry is mad at Europe which was was my initial takeaway off the bat. I had an interesting debate with someone about how self-regulation would work to more on that soon. I'm going to I'll be following that up. So the second takeaway was about investments and this probably builds on all of these takeaways I think kind of build on each other and so there's lack of investment was concerned. There were quite a few people saying how bad things are the industry right now. So the

industry is about to grow but people still are finding it pretty challenging and investment super challenging in games. One founder and investor I spoke to said that there seems to be a der of startups right now. So maybe like years ago like during this week they would get quite a lot of pitches like maybe a dozen or so. This this year there wasn't really any. I think they just had like a few people and it was like the same people that were starting new companies. That was interesting. One founder that's starting a new a new games company said that the lack of VCs and investors in general in games made it tough to raise a fund. So they have a backer but they need like another they need more to complete the race. like you could attract somebody and that's amazing but if you can't raise the whole fund that kind of what's the point I guess I spoke with a major investor today one of the leading games investment groups and they noted that there are maybe only like 20 V I haven't I I apologize I haven't fact checked this they noted that there are maybe only like 20 like active gaming

VCs in gaming right now so I guess that is like one reason that it's pretty hard right there's just not that much going on for this for this group they they they they're still very much investing in casual games and a lot of that is actually in in Turkey. And I uh also spoke with another uh developer that's actually making a game for PC that looks pretty exciting. They've got like can I say this? They've got 17,000 signups uh sorry 17,000 wish lists for their upcoming PC game which is really cool but they said it was like difficult to to attract funding at the moment. hope maybe they don't need it for for their project but yeah there's a lot of problems going around happening right now for for investment and yeah it is a big concern so as part of that uh I talk about non- gaming because I think that feeds into investment so at roioon deconstructal fund founder Mr. Katakov did a did a fantastic talk about a lot of trends and probably a lot of the ones I'm I'm mentioning here and he spoke about non-gaming apps being on the rise

and overtaking games in revenue which I think is something that we all know but like what what is I guess what is the impact of that is quite interesting. So he pointed out a case where a founder had a stronger growing mobile games business but they couldn't actually find an exit. They didn't get a single buyer basically. Meanwhile apps perhaps have less trouble in the same situation like if it was a strong growing app. So he said that while games companies can sell at a 1x to 3x multiple, app companies can sell at maybe a 10x multiple. So I guess you can sort of see why investors right if they're looking at two different things. I spoke with an investor today and they said like so this is a major games investor. They're still they're still doing games but they are expanding into not into non-gaming particularly where there's some sort of crossover I guess in skills. He noted that for example micro drama is on the rise as the fastest growing space and it's like a place that they're interested in putting some of their investment in these days. A shout out Quibby if you know you know. He also

said for valuations, games companies do get less valued just because almost as I think he was still suggesting that there's less value because people still think that games companies they'll have a hit game and the revenue won't keep coming in even though that's not really necessarily the case because a lot as we know a lot of the top games keep going for years revenue for years almost like a SAS business he was saying but I think some investors still don't quite understand that at that level and he referenced like also in terms of like like multiples and returns. A company like Perplexity can get valued at like 100x its revenue and you're just not going to get that most likely with a games company, right? So I think what that all means is that non-gaming is perhaps for some people obviously it's not for everyone. There still be a lot of successful new games businesses etc. But it is perhaps more interesting to investors and founders right now from a returns perspective particularly if gaming spills if gaming skills can be

transferred to the app space which it was just something we're seeing for example Dolingo did an aqua hire of a lot of the next beat stuff who are now working on the music side of that business and I think they're helping out with like other gaming part sorry gamification parts as it were of Duolingo two more takeway China that was a really interesting topic I had a had an amazing conversation result about this. Uh but again, shout out to Mishka for talking about China in his talk. So, Chinese publishers are dominating the mobile games industry. Mishka noted that Chinese companies have big team sizes. They build monetization at the core of their games right off the bat. So, if they have a higher user value, that can lead to higher UA budgets and they just have a bigger home market among other advantages, right? And those advantages generally are they just have a lot of money. Like I said, big teams. There's a bit of talk about 996. So I won't go into that at the moment, but I had a lot of interesting chats about that as well. So with large teams, so Mishka said that 1,000 was a relatively average team size in China. Uh that's a big budget,

substantial expertise. So there's Chinese publishers have grown into kind of global market leaders. And he showed a chart of the top 20 publishers by AP revenue for the past 12 months. Six of them are from China. While some of the others are based in Asian countries like Japan, Singapore, I think it's worth noting that that is not that doesn't include like direct consumer revenue. Top publishers have overtaken west competitors. He actually showed like in some interesting charts you could argue about the comparisons. Uh so like Century Games has overtaken Supercell over the past year. While Micro Fund's Gossip Harbor, it's a merge game, has become the leading merge game in the world. that's overtaken Travel Town and Merge Mansion. I think Travel Town is a UK made game. And then Merge Mansion uh is obviously from Finnish Studio Metacore, but I spoke to one industry expert and and then they during the event and they had concerns over Western de how how Western developers can compete with their Chinese counterparts, particularly given their expertise in both design and marketing. uh he said

those they're going to continue to grow and they could like kill the western games industry over the next few years which is quite extreme but the way that he was talking about it did did make me like be like all right and then if you think about the charts I just mentioned from Mishka about how they're dominating like certain categories now around the world so Forex strategy they're dominating dominating I guess shooters punch mobile now Delta Force He said that uh one team marketing is actually seen as like an even more important role than the game design because that's just how games are sort of built there and like one game had like 200 people working on the marketing and that is all also with AI involved. So these are kind of things you're having to compete with now. Really interesting chat and yeah, how do you compete with that? I think that's going to be the big challenge for the western market over the coming years. I think

the one area that they're not quite dominating. So I also spoke with investor about this today as as well as this expert and then they're just like match free is perhaps the area that that's not that China hasn't quite had yet. And so you're seeing like some interesting startups in in uh Turkey right do that. And obviously Dream Games I think had a I was I was told it was like a 3.3x multiple it fund raise just trying to bring all the all the things together but you know but he said like ultimately Chinese developers will crack match free and so that is something that they are from the this major investor that he said like that is something that they do look at and it is a concern. So I guess watch this space over the next few years. It's not just people going China's like really good. It's like I think if you think about from an investment point of view, regulatory point of view, it all kind of comes together. And then lastly, AI because I mentioned AI there, Supercell

AI lead Otto Sodland, he hosted a a session entitled how AI is reimagining the future of game development. So Supercell's obviously doing investing a lot in it. So they've been doing in AI, they've been doing a lot of hackathons. They've opened an AI innovation lab in Helsinki in San Francisco. They're going to open another one in Tokyo in Japan. And so this talk was basically looking at that how Supercell thinks about AI, it strategy and what it's actually using AI for within the company. He said he he acknowledged that this is probably the fourth hype cycle for AI. So he previously got burned during a previous one like that was more about machine learning, but he thinks the hype is real now. He described AI's potential impacts like the industrial revolution except instead of bringing automation to manual labor. The technology is replacing repetitive knowledge work right now. Supercell AI implementations include anything from coding sorry from coding co-pilots bots for balancing chat GPT and prompting training to creative AI assets for 2D 3D and video AI live ops

UA asset creation creation pilots AI player support and more. He concluded the session by saying he doesn't envision AI replacing creativity, but rather it can boost it. I'll put a link to the whole article. It's well worth checking out. I don't think I do it all justice, but yeah, basic it kind of feels like Supercell is kind of all in on it. Mishko is interestingly describing companies that are all in or some that are kind of kind of like using AI, but it's not like mandatory top down. Appsfly is a really interesting example. Spoke with a couple people about that. Mishka mentioned it in his talk. And I think they basically gave people like two a couple months like to completely just train on AI tools and then after that they can now use those tools however they like to support their work. So it's not like a top down you need to use this you need to use this tool to to do something it is so they're now properly trained on the on the new tech and so they can actually actively see okay I think this will be really

good to help me do this job. So I guess it's a bit more on the employee rather than management saying do this and it doesn't work which I thought was really interesting and obviously apps fly had a major announcements this week I think eight new products was it Aaron and uh a lot of those AI so lastly the investor I spoke with today said that with AI while they used to ask if companies are using AI now they'll ask them why not and also just by the way like Chinese companies have been using AI already is is what he was saying. So, not at least considering useful tools could put you at a dis a competitive disadvantage, I think, was the general gist. That's that's it for my long long usual [laughter] meandering uh round up of the event. It was really good. So, thanks for everyone that kind of to took the time to to chat with me. Uh I'll put I'll put a few articles up on the site this week and

over the coming weeks uh from that. A lot of interesting discussions. Right. So Aaron, you have this I mean I I also have a lot to say about this, but you the most ridiculous thing happened this week.
Yes. Yes. So, Unity um held its Unite 2025 conference earlier this week and I mean there were a few a few announcements like there's a multi-title partnership with 2K Games and there were some stats on Unity's vector AI. Um, but probably the most surprising thing that I imagine most people listening will be aware of um is that um Tim Sweeney took to the stage at the Unity event and obviously given that Unreal Engine, you know, the two are competitors, but yeah, Sweeney came on stage and was talking about a new partnership between Epic and Unity, which sort of sounds like it's um I guess to the benefit of both really, which makes sense. but he talked about

Unity bringing um its new inapp purchase SDK to Unreal Engine developers. So developers that use Unreal Engine will be able to choose Unity's inapp purchase APIs when handling like crossplatform purchases and things. and he went a bit into the kind of context of web stores and the opening up of Apple and Google and all the billing service stuff, you know, that's been of Epics's yearslong battle. Yeah, I guess in one way this is kind of the result of that and kind of leveraging some of Unity's tech. Um, and then at the same time, um, Unity developers are going to be able to publish their games directly on Fortnite starting next year. And apparently Unity made games will also be eligible to appear in its like discovery system uh like games built in Unreal are um and to participate in Fortnite's economy. He said Fortnite is evolving towards an open metaverse economy. So yeah, I guess

benefits for both, but just yeah, really um you know, I I started watching the conference the other morning and just didn't really expect to see Tim Sweeney chatting, which uh was, you know, half wondering if I was still asleep.
If you're dreaming about that, Aaron, I mean, you'd be worried too much. I I I mean, I'm I'm amazed. So I remember like years a like to get an idea. I mean, we all know that Unity and Unreal have kind of have been in fierce competition for a long time. That is nothing new to anybody listening, but like to get one idea of how big a deal this is, not just because they're competitors. I can't remember the year 20, it's pre 2016, I can't remember 14, 15, something like that. And so Unity, I think it was at GDC, like went free and then there was a suddenly like this this clamor of announcements for game engines. It almost felt like a panic

thing. So I don't know how much had already been going on in the background to change business models and how much they already knew about each other's like upcoming announcements, whatever. But it felt like a panic response. Unity went free and then suddenly Cry made a change for Cry Engine. I can't remember what it was. And then Epic made a change for Unreal Engine. It felt like basically in response I think uh it went effective. I could be wrong. I I'll check but I'll make a correction. But I think it went like free then Epic free in quotes and then Epic would take a 5% cut on gross revenue perhaps over a certain uh threshold. And then I remember on stage it might have been that GDC or a subsequent one. I think it might have been a sub subsequent one. Unity is when I think John Rickell was charge right a developer was on stage and outright criticized the 5% fee like

saying it's too much effectively is what they were saying and then obviously the battles over the years. So this is how big a deal is right and these are the two big game engines in the games industry. I know there's like things like Coco's and Godto is is gaining share etc. But these are the two most well-known leaders in the space. Such a huge deal. They would just appear on stage together. It felt to me my first thought is it felt a bit like a concession of like I guess a couple things. I know Tim Sweeney is all about the kind of open platforms etc. Right? So maybe this is part of that philosophy. uh it felt like a bit of a concession to say, well, maybe Unreal Engine isn't really going to compete in some areas with Unity. Unreal Engine has its special specialisms, right? That's as advantages over Unity, but it felt like a bit of a concession to say like, you know, and I always look at it now since the Fortnite company, so it's probably more focused on UFN. I'm not saying for one second that they're ditching Unreal and not going to keep developing and

like it's the next Mihoyo game built on Unreal Engine rope. So, it's still big business, but maybe they don't see it as like the big future like that particular part of it. And then Aaron, you you saw a really interesting post. Aaron, you pointed out that so building blocks founder James Pural had a really interesting take on the move. said like for reference it's like seeing the Coke CEO tip shop for Pepsi which I think is a really good comparison. He said the two companies announced that they're partnering to bring Unity games to Fortnite as you said you will also support a real engine together they are building an open interoperable future for gaming is is what they were saying and then then James Purel says the reality is Roblox is so dominant that competitors are being forced to team up just to keep pace. Roblox has I haven't checked this 51 million daily active users. Fortnite has around 40 to 50 million monthly active users. So Roblox's daily users are 3x this month uh Fortnite's monthly. And then he talks

about like payouts was paid out uh paid developers over $1.1 billion between March 2024 and March 2025. Epic paid out 352 million to creators in all of 24. So 3x more go to Roblox. And then he says, "Epic has been trying to build a userenerated content platform for just over two years. However, seven of the top 10 most popular games on Fortnite are made by Epic themselves. They're literally competing against their own content. Additionally, Unreal Engine is generally difficult to learn. It requires C++ programming knowledge. Roblox Studio uses simple lure scripting that kids can pick up and Roblox has had 19 years to build their ecosystem. Unity is the most popular game engine in the world. Instead of waiting for developers to learn Unreal Engine, Epic is saying, "Bring your existing Unity games over and you get instant access to 500 million registered Fortnite accounts. It's your shortcut to competing." And then he kind of makes reference to uh the search engine wars when Yahoo, Out Vista, and RGs were all competing and

then Google came along and did search so much better that within a few years competition wasn't even close. So he said he finishes with Roblox isn't just winning the platform wars. They've won so decisively that the entire industry is restructuring around them where two fierce competitors have to join forces. That's not a collaboration. That's a response to a market leader that's too far ahead to catch. The gap isn't closing, it's widening. Epic and Unity are making a smart move, but make no mistake about what forced the move to happen. We're watching Roblox have its Google moment in real time. Now, I think that is a really interesting take. Uh I don't necessarily agree with all of that. Like Fortnite has previously kind of been better for older users, which is what Roblox has been trying to break into. And remember, Roblox is not profitable. So I think Epic is now profitable after they made a lot of layoffs. Uh so there are differences here. Will Roblox ever be profitable? You don't really Well, I mean, you assume like there's a long way to go and Roblox is also around the world facing challenges probably with regulation

and it's facing bans, right? So I I I don't think it's I don't think Roblox I don't think we're necessarily watching Roblox have his goo Google moment but it is it is massive platform and then obviously this is I do agree that this is kind of a concession like we need to get more we need to get more developers on this on this platform really interesting huge huge news from many many angles for UGC just the fact that competitors yeah this is a big kind of I guess shot across the bow to to robots. So, we'll see. We'll see where it goes from here. Maybe maybe they'll fall out. Aaron, what's your next story?
Yeah. So, um my other story this week is about Sonic Rumble, which launched a few years, not a few years ago, which launched a few weeks ago after almost a year of delays. Obviously, this is a new Sega game on mobile and PC. It's sort of um turned Sonic into a 32player battle royale and it was originally planned to launch last winter and it got delayed

into May this year and then was delayed again indefinitely about a week before it was supposed to come out. Um and I say finally a couple of weeks ago it did release. It's been quite a wait um and a tentative one I suppose for people who've been eager to play. particularly. Yeah, it was quite big news, I think, back in the back in May when it um did get delayed again like a week before the release date after they'd already been doing like um you know, pre-registration campaign stuff. But yeah, it's finally arrived and now that it's here, um according to AppMagic estimates, it made just 228,000 first 10 days. Um, Sonic Rumble was also only the 30 most downloaded mobile game on its release date and the second most downloaded Party Royale. It was the top party royale game on iOS specifically, but you know, it it um it didn't seem to

kind of set the world on fire as such um after after all the delays to kind of make it possible. When we spoke to Roio earlier in the year, who's sort of serving as the community support the ears of the company of the game, they said that the first delay was kind of allowing Sega to add new features like there's quick rumble which is better tailored to mobile players cuz they're shorter sessions and then there's kind of an additional kind of competitive angle to the game. And then when they delayed it again, the team said that that was to um further reshape the game. So like clearly a lot of work has gone into um trying to get this right, I guess, and you know, delaying it to to really try and achieve that. And then it kind of seems like it it hasn't paid off so far. So November 5th was the launch date. That was Sonic Rumble's most lucrative day so far. It's kind of declined since then. and player feedback highlighted confusion according to the the team

around certain key game design elements and apparently a misconception about certain rewards which Sega has like tried to address in a post online. Um, but they're also kind of intending to revise Sonic Rumble's tutorial and update the game's interface and basically even even though it's fully globally released now, still make more changes to actually kind of make this work, I guess, in the way that it's um supposed to. Um, so it's kind of a shame after all the the delays to, you know, that they thought it was ready to go at this point and then ultimately it seems like maybe it still needed a little bit more time to iron out a few kinks.
It's just it's a surprise that after the year's delay, yeah, like you say, it's not it's not got off to like the start maybe they'd have wanted. I don't think it's People might disagree. I don't think

it's necessarily the worst start ever. like it's making some money, right? We all I think we all get obsessed with it's not making millions of dollars. It's a complete and utter failure. However, it is the Sonic IP. There's a lot of work that's obviously gone into this game from Sega and then Roio, I think, from like the publishing side effectively. I guess you you want it to do more at this stage. We'll see how it goes with the changes, but then they've already they've already spent like a year making them. How much more can they do before it becomes like a different game? And then and then I just start thinking of the whole I know it's different situation, but I start thinking of the whole Squad busters thing where in the end it was just like so just cancel it. We're just going to make a new game. We just cancel.
So yeah, we'll see how it goes. I don't want to immediately call it a failure because like I said, it's made me some money. It's nowhere near profitable.
Yeah, I guess. Sorry. Go on.
I have an interview with Roio about a number of things. We did touch upon

Sonic Rumble, so check that out over the next week or two. I think that, you know, they didn't say that they were completely unhappy with the launch. They just said, "Yeah, we'll just keep trying to improve it, basically." So, they're going to stick with it.
Yeah. And I guess um as you say, you know, we we often talk about the games making millions or billions of dollars, but you know, a lot of games don't and are still
successful. I guess for a bit of kind of perspective, although it's one we have criticized as not being such a big hit, um, a couple of months ago now, like Nintendo released Fire Emblem Shadows, which made like 200,000 in a month by that benchmark. You know, Sonic Rumble's already done more than that in like a third of the time. Um, if if that's the new kind of bar.
If that's the bar. [laughter] Yeah. I mean this the most surprising thing to me is still that this is a Sega made game and not a Roio made game. I don't know how long it was in development then before but like you buy

this big mobile developer all this capacity and then you have your Sega team make it. I don't know. It's just a weird one. I'm sure they're talented at the studio. I'm just it just always struck me as strange.
Roio itself needs a hit, but I I wouldn't I think if you're out there looking at it, I wouldn't necessarily think this is a ROIO failure. This is Sega's side
despite Sega kind of really criticizing Roio in recent financials. Right. Thanks very much for that, Aaron. And thanks everyone for tuning in as always. It's always fun to do these shows. Sorry if I'm a bit even more talkative than usual. I think I'm just tired. But hopefully you found some of that insightful. We'll be back again as always next week. Goodbye.