GameFounders' Kadri Harma On Unlocking The MENA Game Market

[Music] hello world and welcome to the pocketgamer.biz podcast Brian my co-host Brian Bago he isn't here with me today I am back from a trip and everyone in the team at Pocket Gamer well wheels up for another because we are gearing up for a mega show in Mina one of our most important and after a triumphant year in 2023 last year welcoming over 1,200 guests and returning again is the game Expo Summit powered by PGC connects coming to Dubai on May 1st and 2nd and of course huge event it's alongside the Dubai Esports and games festival at the Dubai World Trade Center and 100 plus renowned games industry speakers what

you've come to expect from Pocket Gamer over the years who will deliver insightful talks panels you name it that's what we do and in advance of that well we welcome one of those headline speakers to the show today to reflect on opportunities in the region because she knows them firstand she'll also update us on her own work in the industry as a whole Kadri Hara co-founder of game Founders investment fund and mentoring program Venture partner cisu game Ventures and can I say a force in the industry welcome to the show today it's great to have you thank you so much for having me hi Peggy it's great to have you and of course you aren't just here on the show you're back again at Dubai you're no stranger to the region by any measure and um yeah you are there you're a veteran you have been there on the ground what are you looking forward to personally even professionally when you

touchdown yes so I had the the pleasure of uh of living and working in the region uh for the past two years uh in Saudi Arabia so for people who maybe don't know uh I was um I was running one of the uh Savvi Studio Savvy group companies and uh and also had the chance to uh to look at other countries and and also other regions uh specifically for uh what is happening in in the game Space and I'm very happy to go back again again I've I've obviously been back in the meantime as well because I still feel like I did uh before that everything is still happening everything is evolving a lot of new programs a lot of new Studios a lot of new people looking at the region so um I mean of course personally very very cool to uh to just catch up with people over a few months uh but I think also professionally very interesting to see what is what is happening over there well it is on the move and your panel um pretty much sums that up as well Mina's

Rising Star how can the region compete on the global stage um what are you going to be sharing what are you excited to discuss well I mean obviously I've always been a believer in the region which is uh which is also one of the reasons why I uh I went there and uh and tried to uh to support and uh and uh help the game studios in the region to to get their opportunities that they deserve I mean on one side it obviously is a big uh region in terms of players just a pure amount of people compares to Europe but also the fact that they do monetize better and it is easier at one point to uh to get the the benefits of of the market but at the same time I mean also from the industry perspective obviously a lot of talent there in terms of new game studios in terms of uh new uh Ventures or or uh whatever people might be interested in so I think both these sides are very interesting but still I feel um what started a few years

ago is is ramping up nicely but I mean nobody is is there in a in a year or so so it will it will still take a little bit more time and I mean the the unfortunate political uh um turmoils happening in the region right now are not really helping it but uh I'm really uh hoping that everybody still keeps their eye on the prize and and looks at it as as a market that has really great potential you said something there I just want to follow up on on a moment you said also they are very good at monetizing as well so we know the numbers are there the players the studios the monetization strategy I'm intrigued is that because it is very much focused on just building players and building volume or is there something else about that strategy that you find very successful attractive I think it was actually uh I think it was actually some kind of pocket camer survey that I read I cannot pinpoint it right now

but it actually uh was comparing the uh the average revenue per user in different regions and this is where um I think actually Dubai was the first one and and followed by by others in the region but it was uh it was uh significantly higher than what you would get from Europe or North uh America that you have kind of like traditionally tried to monetize as as opposed to maybe other regions where you go more for just the volume of players so in in that sense it is possible and it's it's also I feel that it's a little bit um underserved in a way that people don't really go out of their way to localize for it so if you do localize for it the players are thankful and the players are thankful with their wallets so uh they they are very much okay with with spending in in some cases where let's say the the Western European players would not and uh and I think that is uh that is something that is um still uh under us I would say yeah I've seen

similar research to that uh also um from sensor Tower others and very true very very true speaking with developers there who have localized their games let's talk about you a little bit more you know you have game Founders where your co-founder then you're sissu game Ventures which we have to learn more about now I know you personally so I know that wherever you go in the world it's all about conceptualizing in launching startup ecosystems and initiatives what's your current focus and how do those all fit together so I mean my journey with game Founders it's now is it 12 years 13 years so yes so so quite a long time but uh overall so it is a a accelerator that also uh is uh has an investment fund so we have already now uh worked in three different uh regions so we've uh we've done Europe

we've been in Estonia and Europe then we were in Malaysia southeast Asia and then the most recent two years uh were spent in Saudi Arabia and Mina so um so the the idea is really to empower the new and upand cominging regions and uh and that is also you know one of the reasons why I know maybe a little bit more about this region but looking forward I mean I think that there are still so many uh places you know that people say that is the next one we we'll see what actually ends up being the next one but I mean definitely South America is very interesting definitely uh there are regions in Africa that are very interesting uh India is definitely very interesting so I think that there's a lot of uh places that can still uh benefit from having their ecosystem get a little boost a little connection to the to the global games industry and and just have some more people involved in in thinking about how to best help and support the game studios now you have a unique perspective on Mina because as

you said yourself you've been there you were on the ground you served as CEO of 966 which was part of the Savvy gaming group ecosystem company so you saw it then you were very impressed what impressed you most about the region during that time and how does that compare to what your sense is now I think what was uh for me very unique on a global scale was that um I mean specifically so I was in Saudi so so I'm I'm mainly talking about Saudi but I actually think that it applies for the whole region what I was impressed with was that the government had a vision to uh build up an industry one sector almost out of scratch and uh and really you know really put muscle to it so there was not really only one Ministry or like one organization or or one little agency doing something it was really full on the whole country and like almost every single individual in

the whole governmental apparatus which is obviously huge we really thinking about like how can we have an impact how can we build this industry and I mean firsthand I saw it of course in Saudi but now I mean obviously we're also seeing we're seeing it in in Jordan even before Saudi uh started we we are now seeing it in in Dubai in multiple free zones we are also seeing it in Abu Dhabi so I think what what is what is really unique is is the government's um sort of like widespread support that uh that hasn't really happened in any of the countries before because the games industry has sort of organically developed but it's like right now it's it's almost like um it's almost like surgically put it there and and develop which is uh which is a very cool way toh to build an economy yeah that was uh Vision 2030 and uh that enthusiasm what I'm hearing from you is is still very strong and actually contagious it has

spread throughout the region um and it's great to see that resolve I mean when 20 when Vision 2030 when that came out and we understood the amount of effort and above all the amount of money that was going to be putting toward this then you're saying to yourself this is going to happen and there has been a lot of excitement about local development Talent sprouting up in the area exponential growth of players as well um last count from Pocket Gamer 380 million players um and uh time they spending games off the chart so this is very exciting because we write about it of course that's exciting for us but what grabs the attention of the investor Community that's what you represent what are you hearing um so my other job that um I sort of uh didn't really mention a lot about is uh in siso game Ventures so it's a pre-seed uh and seat stage uh fund that only invests in game companies we do it globally but uh so far mainly

in uh in Europe nordics also looking at other regions unfortunately nothing from Mina yet which uh sort of brings me to the the issue I mean you can't really build Talent on a on a large scale within a few years in a few years you can give them knowledge but you can't really give them experience so in that sense I think this is uh this is what the investors are sort of looking for is when is going to be the Tipping Point that the locals can be you know right now they are mainly let's say Juniors um of course there are seniors I don't want to you know uh take away anybody's credit but let's say on a scale uh they're still mainly junior level and I think that uh we're waiting until that sort of uh tips and that we have more lo more local uh senior talent that we have more local Founders that we have a lot more coming out of there and I mean effort is being made uh absolutely over there I mean for instance in um in in

Saudi specifically again I know more of uh for instance soft has their um internship program run for multiple years already they're hiring people from it they are now investing as well uh same for uh for steer Studios inside of uh of Savi as well they have a very good internship program so everybody is rooting for it also the ministry of uh communication and it in Saudi has different programs running another another accelerator coming so all of these things I think are are definitely impacting it and the universities are working very well and uh neom as well is uh is is putting together their own programs so all of this is happening but I mean just you know common sense that it will take a few years and I think that's what what everybody's really waiting for I mean you did a I think a fantastic research project while you were there that uh that I read wrote about and was one of the best because you didn't just look at the market conditions and the numbers yes we know about the players we know about the

hours spent in games but you also looked where Studios needed the most support again this is Saudi Arabia but it speaks for the region as well right I think so and it was like there are startups they're significant they're growing but there was a gap there was a gap because although they were motivated they lacked for example marketing business skills you know just what it needs to really move a startup or a studio to the next level um what is your feeling now I mean we talk about the progress but in specific these skills these are so important particularly to prove a point um to an investor to make a case to make a pitch and you've actually done talks that were very well received for Pocket Gamer about exactly that you know what to put in a deck where to be transparent what people want to understand what is your feeling about the potential for for this level of talent are you seeing something that makes you say yeah yeah

all all good on the right track or no definitely more skills needed and maybe maybe more more effort from incubators and others out there in the industry yeah definitely that was uh that was a huge piece of research that I think hasn't uh really been uh um repeated again so we don't really know exactly what is happening and uh shout out to Naser who actually did the bulk of the work uh but um so I think what you described is not uh somehow characteristic to the region I think it's characteristic anywhere if you look at any Indies or any young Studios their first concern is always their product like you know I want to build something that I want to play or like that i i s so something and I can do it better so all of the attention is there so I wouldn't really single out you know Mina uh young Studios and say that they have this I think everybody has this everybody's in love with their product and don't really think about the business don't really think about

marketing and I mean I would even say to some extent don't understand the difference between publisher and investor money because Publishers do look at your game and they do care more about this but investors rather look at your studio they look at longterm they look at what you are building in uh in in you know in perpetuity what's your vision so um so I think that this is this is very common to all the studios that we are working both in game Founders as well as in in sisu but I think you know all of the programs that I mentioned as well in uh in in Saudi but as well in Dubai and in Abu Dhabi they're all all working on it but it just it just takes time it just takes experience but fortunately there are also investors from the region that are more let's say daily available to these uh young Studios to pitch to to talk to to get feedback about so uh so for instance uh Shu Partners in Dubai is being a very um active in in the field

and also let's say um educating other investors but also working a lot with young Studios and and this is this is how it all starts like that's why it's called an ecosystem right you can't just do one thing you have to have like everything move up at the same time for it to have an actual effect is there any part of that ecosystem looking at it from your perspective where there is significant work to be done that maybe hasn't been the top of the agenda but maybe is moving up there because as the ecosystem develops so do the priorities so do the areas that you really need to address um where's the most work that needs to be done Kadri honestly in terms of uh of Mina I would love to see a few more strong Publishers pop up because I mean we are saying you know let's capture the potential of the players but I don't see anybody really kind of saying that you know this is my space this is what I'm doing and uh and I'm

the number one there of course there are like you know there are smaller ones there are bigger ones that are looking at the market but there isn't really um like I would I would love to see like two or three strong ones that are doing something and that would really benefit the market in a sense that PE people would have more more of G case studies I would say that you know this is a case study of you know we localized we used this publisher and now we are making so much more Revenue which would also encourage other students to look at the region and go there more because definitely the potential is there so this is definitely one thing that I would want to see and second thing I mean kind of similar but uh investment so there is a lot of uh funding available throughout the region but it isn't necessarily strategic funding at this point so they don't necessarily understand the industry enough to be smart money for the Investments so in that sense I would like to see that kind of Education continue and and more uh

let's say if there would be like a a game fund happening there or or even just more LPS to uh to Global game funds like uh like CIS or any other uh coming from the region so that they would get more experience they would get more exposure and then they would also be able to uh to trickle that down into the into the region I hear what you're saying Kadri just a little bit of a you know borrow a page from Finland you know understand what games compan can do to a region but we have to say like Finland started it in like I don't know like 1980s or or like almost in the Stone Age so it has taken them as well some time but definitely I think that uh this is also one of the reasons why I was working in Saudi we actually did a full governmental study trip to Finland and we went to all the different agencies and Ministries and and we asked them like what did you do what worked what didn't work how can we do and I think that there are a lot of good connections uh made there so so definitely I think

one of the good things about the industry is it it's just so open and people are willing to to share and support and and yeah these these connections we have definitely made so you you you really got that one uh what can we expect from you the one Kadri what can we expect from you next maybe lifting the lid on a little bit of that knowledge that you have from Finland for everyone but other than that you have so much that you are involved in so much change you can effect what are you excited about doing next I mean for me my whole career in the industry has really been about supporting Studios so mainly through investment mainly through acceleration and uh and just Equity funding but I think overall like being able to put together these systems and and to support whole ecosystems is really something that makes me excited because obviously the the impact is larger than just the 10 Studio Studios that you're working with then you can have an impact on a on a full so I think um as as I mentioned before I

mean unfortunately I'm not able to to mention any names but we are looking at several new regions where it would make sense to start with game Founders and have a bit of a uh impact but uh I mean obviously also at this time of um of of kind of everything going on in the world we're also looking into are there ways that we can support uh the the studios and the founders that are in positions that maybe are um a little bit disruptive right now and they can't have their full potential you will be the first to know when something gets uh turns into reality then excellent kri I will take you up on that and of course every show we do the same ending it's just a tradition you know how it is Brian isn't here to ask the questions and really weigh in on it but I'll do it in his name your favorite game you're currently playing and your favorite game of all time the game if you can't even call it game that I'm playing the most right now is actually uh language

learning because uh I have been I have been learning Arabic as well as Spanish and uh and actually pretty well so this is this is something that I spend the most time on if you if you ask like what am I what am I playing the most but um I mean traditionally I have I have always been a sucker for uh for kind of uh the uh the older U like something that that I almost like grew up with uh is is Mario so that was uh that was my favorite game for years and like I I feel that that sort of like got me in there so so like out of all time I would I would say that and I hear you because there's a lot of gamification in language learning and I know a couple of people on the show have also been seeing it the same way and they have a great way of sort of making that loop I mean those notifications everything keeps you it's habit forming that's the whole idea I mean it's great mechanics a lot we can learn from that and loads we can learn

from you cadri I almost hate to let you go um where can people keep track of you is it is it LinkedIn is the best I think LinkedIn is is the easiest yes so I'll uh I'll try to uh become a little bit uh more open about things that we're are doing as well but but uh there's a lot of uh lot of different uh content as well on on sisu and on game Founders that uh that you guys can follow and then you know wait for the new announcements absolutely that's what we're here for pocket again we'll be writing about it we'll be watching you and again as always Kadri thanks for supporting our events and being such a great speaker great to have you and uh yeah we will be in touch thanks again for sharing thank you so much for having me and uh I will see everybody in Dubai on May one and two then this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say

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