From Hypercasual to Hybridcasual - The Estoty Portfolio story (#86)

and that's important yeah yeah because you can you can see like the pro product know how is excellent in a way like like core game play progressions are connected let's say we have the HBY model here then there's like different ones in the Martian game and the yes but you don't have the say games [ __ ] amazing UA team yeah yeah that's the thing and that's the question that's the million dollar questions will the studios be able to actually do it themselves and leave Publishers forever yeah was it because of their way things work this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast 2 and a half Gamers sharing actionable insights dropping Knowledge from our Day-Day user acquisition game design and AD monetization jobs we are definitely not discussing the latest industry news but having so much fun let's not forget this is a 400 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously yeah it's a regular okay okay in that case uh well welcome everybody

uh this is session number 86 uh my name is Mel anich I'm Felix braberg and I'm Yu and we are your hosts and we are we are also your Consultants we also working uh with multiple companies on their games from UA ad monetization and game design perspective So today we're going to talk about another interesting story uh hyper Cas from hyper casual to hybrid casual is slight different than what we've done before because now we're focusing on EST toti Studio which was part of say games or well they publ say games by say Games published their games and they were pretty big hits uh but now they're kind of going on their own adventure into the hybrid casual space yeah before we do that before before starting how was Korea yes exactly that's what I wanted to

before we start we just came back from South Korea uh amazing yeah the load complete party really thanks for them making it happen was literally amazing you heard it from the speech it was their idea and I pushed them to actually do it because last time when we were here with Mr Felix over there over here he was like oh well we need to go to G Star I like oh well you know it's in Busan you can rent the Y part he like what what wait wait wait a second you can rent a yacht for like a few hours like okay let's do that let's definitely do that let's invite an interesting interesting Studios and then let's have a let's have a chat and it was amazing really really cold really bumpy but great yeah we literally freezing our ass off on the second deck level yes but yeah it was definitely worth it the view was amazing there was even fireworks around with like other boats kind of swarming and just started thr throwing fireworks out

of nowhere it was all under the giant bridge in Busan which is like completely um you know RGB lighted in the evening so like lot of lot of uh nice colors and there's a beautiful sunset so yeah was was very nice it was companies yeah for local companies even like out outside companies kind of party yeah and then uh our new friends from Century gam so we met with with the CMO and I was that would have been a really interesting conversation I'm coming next time I'll come next time honestly it was the best conversation because you could immediately see it Haven knows he knows his [ __ ] and like the whole company knows how to do stuff so it was really good one uh so yeah definitely coming next year and maybe even uh even sooner you you never know never know the exper area was kind of smaller compared to Gamescom like I wasn't expecting to be that small like just the size difference

but like for me the biggest downside was of course there was no merchandising area with like lots of an and stuff man you could so benefits then man he was he was beaching about no merch like almost half day it was just it was terrible it that was like really bad I mean honestly if you compare Gamescom to to Gar it's like eight times bigger than what you see in gar yeah in size of but obviously different audience so kind of kind of makes sense to go there anyway so to the topic of today yeah so today like mon said we're talking about the Hidden Gem or like you have to be in the no to know who esto is until now pretty much because in terms of hybrid hyper hybrid casual there a studio that has always worked kind of one step behind him been has has had their Games published they started off getting published by catchup which then of course turned into Ubisoft and then they over to publishing games strictly for

say games but it's probably the only gaming company uh well some of the metrics let me just read them off here so over 1 billion downloads uh to the company 200 million active players and over 10 top 10 hits so this probably makes them one of the biggest gaming companies in terms of the user base like ever and probably the biggest gaming company in the entire world that I had to tell Remo about that he didn't know about until three weeks ago I posted about and he like who come on I'm pretty sure he he knew about oh oh oh wait a second he didn't know about kayak from Japan so I guess like this No it's h hyper casual when it's on the hyper casual he knows he knows titties and hardcore games sorry Wu sorry wuss sorry girl girls like really well and then like hybrid casual cuz he doesn't have you know any core Loops past you

know no no system no systems of but anyway uh he's rectified that now and now he knows his study both in and out because kind of what they're doing now is I think they're trying to go direct to Consumer they've been working with say games for so long and we've been doing a lot of digging on this but their growth like we're looking at some of their older games uh in their portfolio and they have had so many hits that you know about so just to name a few before I turn over to re like Remo they made Squad Alpha Johnny trigger match hit my little Universe knife hit uh flippy race house paint I used to name a couple of them how how many of these you actually played Mr who know who knows this I've played I've played Squad Alpha Johnny trigger and I've played uh Flappy flippy race that's the only ones I've played by the way they have the snow game that I told you about the one that's like referring to that anime I was watching on the plane yeah there you go there you go well of course

he was watching anime the whole plane I was watching Star Wars uh anyway yeah anyway like I had a quick look on sensor Tower just now before and right now like their biggest titles in terms of Revenue on I is making anywhere between just on I AP alone is making anywhere between two to three million a month uh in total which is Squad Alpha right yeah Squad Alpha is the biggest one then it's my little universe and then can you share the screen what you're looking at actually of course so uh you know our YouTube uh subscribers can actually see it so this is uh going back all in time uh since they started launching games in January this is under catchup which is now Ubisoft and you can just go around seeing here the downloads so here you can see the crazy amount of downloads that Johnny trigger had amazing that's in one month 42 million downloads it's

insane good old days yeah good old days old Corona days yeah but then you the switch but then if you flip this switch I and look at Revenue right then you really see what's been going on you see what the trend is happening right because yeah this is the hybrid hyper casual area and now we're moving to the hybrid casual and EST are just rolling with the punches and you just knocking out hits no matter what so I'm assuming that's what you're going to be talking about now right yeah so this will be a more of a like Detective episode because I wanted to kind of like figure out what's happening here as like yeah you don't really know these companies behind the big Publishers in hybrid casual these days so I want to look through like the you know the usual thing that I talk about here which is like which is the parent which game is coming from which other game and which took like someone else's kind of progression or cor game play and then move it themselves because we found out like some really surprising results as I will be going forward with this and I guess

it's kind of worth uh mentioning this was also of course mentioned To Us by our very good friends from the SL channel of Two and a Half Gamers so for everyone wants to join the discussion and find these hidden gems that being thrown at us which I really thankful for feel free to join yeah uh one of our uh friends there Samy from ketchup got a a nice nickname from yob it's golden Samy now so thank you thank you very much for bringing this up because uh this is exactly why we have the the SL channel can disc at the end of the year when yako when man gives out his hook of the Year award uh you know Rema will also give out an award for the most helpful person in our slack group in terms of game design so of course interesting um yeah so let's start with the my little univers call The Golden Goose golden but then we need we need to think about uh what kind of award you're going to you going to have it's going to be I

paid up your award so you guys make it up for me how about that oh yeah yeah that's true that's true sure think about so anything familiar with their game as you see it for the first time I don't see it as the first time I played it before yeah okay Felix anything familiar it's the same mechanics as you see on a lot of say games hit games one moving character that just move it and it does actions when you come close to it and it's pretty much you can see it's this the same template that you've been talking so much about in all the conferences but this but this was the first game from their portfolio so this is from good golden goblins and all of these uh other other games what golden goblins you mean well this uh I mean this is the first kind of a arcade what's say core game play that I've seen there somebody correct me if I'm wrong that was done by estoty in soft lunge in August 5th 2021 and all the other games kind of follow in their their tracks but the interesting part is that all of the like

big hits on say games portfolio using this core gameplay and then merging with other elements aren't from estoy different Studios so it seems to me like this is also the one thing that that's happening there that uh the you know Publishers see into all these other things and they can pull the strings between their studios in way but this this exactly what happy does oh like they have look like yeah they have the template kind of and they the this is man this is the different thing here this is the core game playay HBY has the progression okay these guys are using the same core gameplay with different progressions hubby is using different core gam plays from different Studios with the same progression they have okay so it's the other way fair enough fair enough but almost the same other way around but almost the same but this is more of an idea isn't like the template that like how uses so yeah um my listen Universe this is the game that like uses this

kind of arcade Loop but you just kind of walk to something you chop it down you move resources from left to right I don't see that much kind of idle part with it idle meaning that there's some resources being generated offline or in the meantime and you collect them later what they like they're pretty much being automated uh this is like pure arcade and like you go from here and there you have these kind of currency conversions of like let's say here for instance I'm melting these rocks to steel or whatever like the usual kind a simulation Loop but it it it isn't done kind of automated as a normal simulation game so this kind of brings us to this very very easy nice let's say arcade field where you're just chopping down trees and stuff like that and then you're immediately buying let's say new resources or new land with it like here again same same thing as dream uses yeah there's an ad um you walk on to the cost that's on your ground and you pay for something and the progression can false this is exactly the same system that dream Del

uses but dream Del also on top of it has some of the other elements that are done with the idol progression because you can hire the workers you can automate the things and suddenly it's an idol it's not just arcade this is kind of a more of a pure arcade so yeah let's see um this was as I said like August 5th 2021 the first of the yeah this would be a fun episode I can this first of this first of the the the ad simulator yeah like like today I I watched something like 300 ads plus like uh yeah I had a lot of this today thank you for supporting my end of the business uh yeah it's pretty much like playing one game and then like having an ad so I switched to the other game and then like after someone has never made an IAP it's nice that you're finally contributing to the mobile gaming maybe a if you don't cheat finally and you don't play it on this [ __ ] emulator then you would be able to turn off the internet and play it without ads that's

how it's done that's how it's done I think I'll just like add the rout hack there that like walks outright or you guys are jerks just watch the ads for sure so this is this is pretty much my little Universe uh continue that's nice it's your little Universe oh ah I God this be a fun one yeah and and see can you imagine this is like for three days in like South Korea on the way there it's just like [ __ ] never ending 17 hours journey and then again the same thing 17 hours Journey back yeah so of fun this is uh Squad Alpha their other game uh this screams to me that they were using some things from Johnny trigger there other 100% yeah yeah and then taking on some stuff from archero and it was a nice

merge in way like an iteration not just a direct copy or like one to one like we take some call a hybrid casual game or a hyper or a casual game Squad Squad Alpha definitely hybrid one do you remember we wanted to like bring up Squad Alpha but we kind of we didn't because we didn't think it was a hybrid C that we got like too many games that look like arero or Survivor yeah and also we went with we went with the failer PIR [ __ ] because the think is that it's a little bit more kind of strategic than than your usual Archer because for instance here I can switch weapons you know these guys this yeah I wouldn't say it's actually like casual it's a little bit more yeah yeah more core like like it seems to me like a little bit like Hitman streamlined to be honest because for instance you can do these strikes or whatever just just wait for some people like select the like specific weapon to counter the weapon of your opponent stuff like that so there's

a little bit more strategy definitely than Arch which is or Survivor which is just like melt the enemies with your whatever build that you're using but you can also go like full Hitman and just like roll over everyone it's still possible if the like weapon know full Hitman is just you know going in Shadows and then like everybody is using the double barrettas and like killing everyone and have like the M murderer score there that's full that was usually me I I just tried to sneak because I also try to sneak and then like some random guy screams at me and triggers the alarm and I lose my [ __ ] and like exactly yeah exactly and then just go go bananas always that's the best bananas yeah so this is code Alpha again very successful game and the good thing is that again you could see that the the like the product noow of the studio how they iterate it and not just copied stuff so this is like a very important Milestone this was sof on July 1st 2021 after all of these things um there were other games done in

the meantime they were also like publishing like different games uh they meaning say games or okay uh but if I understood correctly there wasn't a game that was using the arcade core gameplay from them but from different companies because there were games such as dream Dale uh which was sof launch December 30 2021 so that's the same year as the my little Universe was launched by hper Nova games my perfect Hotel comes July 29 2022 by reduxx games the soft launch I'm leing the soft have king or fail Castle takeover the the L June 28 2022 by play Focus have the graphs in front of you can you share the graphs or no those are no grph behind those those are just notes those are notes in a way like how how how but

here you can see that pretty much three different Studios from say games portfolio reuse this kind of arcade core gam playay and like the the you know pretty much the systems of core gameplay like paying with resources here the conversion the backpacks like the UI is pretty much the same like all of UI progressions were shifted a little bit because for instance King ofl already has a combat Loop in it my perfect hotel has The Idler reset Loop in it trale has both dungeons eded and both uh idle progression added into it so they're reusing the core gameplay not the progression as I said which is kind of interesting yeah but like why why because they know it works and has excellent kpis day one retention because cor game plays the reflection of your day one retention and then CPI and I we're getting to yeah we're getting to CPI discussion right now I want to talk about that as well now we can see and which is the like the real thing we'll

be talking about today there are three games on esto portfolio currently which are all pretty much 90% the same using the arcade Survivor kind of a let's genre yeah but then different kind of uh different visuals different visual themes yes but if if kind of think about like the it's still within almost the same kind of visual style is just well low poly depends a little I mean the Western the graphic Styles visual but the theme is different yes the theme is different Graphics style is visual is not not different but the team is different yeah yeah um anyone wants to ask something until I do a drill D on all three no I just wanted to point yeah I want to can I just show the audience right sure sure can I show the audience one thing here that I just pulled up uh on sensor tower that basically it's quite recent that they started doing this because here are the two that M

found like a genius actually has two publisher accounts one under esto and one estoi vus UAB and you can see it's pretty much in the last like 100 days that things have started happening on these accounts because if we go back like wait a second this whole year then you can see that nothing really started happening on any games like until you know you know what you should add uh at uh dream Dale and my perfect Hotel into those graphs and then I bet they are in the publisher bre anyway okay because it's you know they started like July so if I look into when my perfect Hotel started scaling then we might see like why is this actually working quite well for them and why they started using this kind of strategy I guess where is this you can continue can

check uh yeah anyway yeah Remo take it away yeah so um can I share yeah yeah so starting with idle breaker which was sof lunch April 25th this year then March Survivor which was sof L June 30th this year and then vest Escape which was soft launch October 12th 2023 so um remember the story of Alien Invasion for those who don't remember there was a similar thing happening where guys from multicast gaming had their game called fishing something that I forgot uh if somebody can Google that for me thank you guys uh and that uses the exact same core gam playay and fish Idol fishing Tycoon I was I had just discussion about this game today exactly so they had the game and then they a little bit iterated but switched the team dramatically into aliens versus scientists versus this kind of you know

Alien Invasion uh and suddenly it's giant hit even though the games are pretty much same so what's happening here any UA managers want to pitch in cheaper cbis well fish versus uh aliens team most probably happening in here because if if this is the yeah this is the only well they had a little bit a little bit of success in May 2021 but then the game kind of died and then they started with alien invasion in October 2022 and then suddenly started scaling so I would say there was also like something different but main reason the different theme which is way more interesting than like fishing and if you think about it there's no other game within more interesting or has bigger targetable audience that's the question yes yeah like the fishing is like Niche

is [ __ ] and but aliens in space could have like kind of like everyone SE Star Wars higher potential reach but St yeah but that's that's quite different this is no Star Wars is more like Alien versus Predator alien yeah yeah so I would say it's could be just like the the bigger potential reach uh and why why they appeel yeah other than just fishing okay so remembering that we are pretty much right here where we're not covering a successful hybrid we're covering a studio that's trying to create their own successful hybrid without the publisher now if we understood correctly and they already are trying three new themes with the same core and I guess a little bit shifted progressions I think they're kind of the same maybe I just they just don't kind of add them into the new ones because idle breaker was the first one soft lunching April is the most robust

one because if I go into it it makes like 160,000 it's already already from September yeah yes only I feeling probably this is at least 60 or 50% ODS at least yeah definitely uh so if I look here you could see already that they have the usual kind of a HBY yeah merging progression there I think the shop is also kind of very very reminiscent of the hobby thing so you have the normal even the like the prices here of gems like they're literally the same so you have let's say here in this heavy duty crate you have gear that you can get only from there the air one HBY has the S1 then you have the normal gear and like sorry misclick and the all all you don't buy of course I don't buy nothing skipping the ads yeah so the the shops literally the same

the progression here on the combat side is the same but the core gameplay of course is completely different uh they have this very nice Loop where you can increase the damage of your farming speed by three times for an ad that's that's kind of really good by the way Felix have you noticed something about the forced ads here I did notice something about the force today very big difference there's a very big difference because they do four different types of AD units which is is quite rare because usually it's rewarded interstitial and Banners but this is one of the only hybrid casual games that actually does rewarded in justicial and rewards gold and gives a countdown timer when you're playing it and basically saying you're about to see an ad in 5 4 3 2 1 and it says you're going to get x amount of gold from watching it and that's the first time I see that on hybrid casual and dare I say that it's the first on estoty because pile of

poo reward in justicial are really not that good and it's you know what I do by the way when I see this what I always watch the other AD to skip it so if I'm watching an ad I can get more out of it like the one that increases your farming speed I pretty much counter the ad with an ad oh so you click on that so okay interesting during that thing so I kind of at least I'm getting a little bit more kind of so I think what they're going to find out that the reward industrial is is like not a widely adopted ad unit so you don't get that much fill or competition for it and also it's like why just not make people watch rewarded instead like yeah yeah but do you see like the the western game it doesn't have the banner W but I think Western game because it's a new West one they're just yeah there's like zero yeah they even don't have in the western game the increase the farming speed three times at placement looks like there's zero revenues on that but even seeing these

games next to each other you can clearly see that they're building a template yeah like if if we go here and I I put up the the Mars game yeah Mar Survivor yeah that is by way this is this is the one Invasion yeah yeah that's the theme okay oh Jesus Christ oh wow what the [ __ ] that looks amazing this one this is literally following the the the plot of the Martian movie yeah where you like crash land on Mars and then you need to like scavenge stuff and then like this whole thing that you see here was like completely broken I completely renovated it I whatever you have these conversion stations like same as like my little Universe then you have the main kind of upgrade your tool which is your level basically thing which like drives all of these three games then for instance here I have like finally I have oxygen inside so I because they have this nice mechanic of you running out of oxygen and you need to always is going of get if you die it doesn't matter you just respond near it but it's a nice

thing to kind of have there as some kind of other thing I was expecting I would see increase movement speed at that usually my perfect hotel and dream Dale has but these these guys don't have it so you can still push from more so would you say that these guys so now it's the ones with the templates is s games habby and esto the thing is the hyper casual like genre yeah yeah the thing is that it's quite early to say anything about I don't think so it's a template because give the like the difference here why it's not a template HBY they have a template because they can test different games with the same progression these games are pretty much all the same just different teams so it's not really a template it's more an AB test like this whole all those three games yeah it's not a template it's just a rkin basically yeah it's pretty much a rkin uh so the template that that you see regarding the dream D my perfect hotel

and king or fail that's concerning the progression a little bit because there's idle progression there's the like this kind of a core gameplay UI everything is kind of same and they're changing it with the like combat Edition to King or fail the idle Hotel reset addition to my perfect hotel and Dungeons and like whatever kind of to dril so dungeons that's much closer to to like a template this is more of a I guess these guys trying to refine expertise with this kind of arcade core gam playay and adding it the Survivor meta or whatever you call it here because all all the games are like exactly the same regarding like you go you dig out these Resources by the way I think one of the biggest issues that I have with all of these games compared to dream Dell is that three two one here it is yeah yeah it's it's not intuitive because for instance I need to get some whatever like broken cans or whatever like how do

you get those like from from what it's not that intuitive like which resource to break that gives you like broken cans or like yeah even here like a bush gives you wood or whatever so it's struggling a little bit because in dream Dale it's very easy like chopping wood you get wood you're fishing that's an easy fix right they can just put that up there next to fix the ra it's not an e easy fix man the problem is the team the team uh pretty much constricts you on like what you can put in it and therefore the team kind of makes it a little bit more confusing because dream they have this kind of fairy team so it's very easy but in space for instance like this whole space junk that you have there like yeah I don't even know what these are like like batteries like coming out of solar panels or what why is it important why is it important because it needs to be intuitive for the player to understand immediately what he need needs to do if he if he don't he you know gets confused

and turns out that's that's like easy easy fix there see like what are give you yeah I don't know I do maybe they can make a subreddit with all the with all the with all the people from all the from all the blizzard games four different four different uh soft currencies or what like not soft currencies Warcraft Rumble guys can team up with these guys yeah four different materials like no I don't care yeah so yeah this is like I think the the worst part of it as I said the Martian game seems the most intuitive because for instance if I don't know something I click on it and it tells me like you need to go here this game the the Cowboy game it's just like what's it called you can't call it a Cowboy game escape you can cck on idle breaker you can click on it as well and tells you where to go yeah yeah like in in the west game like if I want to have what it called West Escape West Escape come on

like the bestest G like the bestest Escape in Survivor yeah exactly what the [ __ ] come on the the thing is that if I click here it doesn't tell me I need nails or like yeah it's just like boohoo it's like it's in the soft line for a month I know I know I know but like I would expect like if you like you know uh topping of the learnings of the previous game you would have the base features of yeah I would expect soft launched games have UA these don't yeah that's so that's I mean if you think about it it makes sense because if you're a game Studio that kind of like work like develop games and then the publisher takes over and then they do their UA then you don't know how to do UA you don't have a plan to like soft launch a game you don't know how to do it basically so you do whatever you kind of like got from the conversations with the with the publisher different hearing and doing right yeah yeah yeah but like it looks like that like they just have like thousand installs from us no UA on

both games there's like some Revenue coming from uh the mar Survivor but from vest Escape no nothing but it's just yeah that is a soft launch it's quite quite early early yeah two questions for you m so like what are the biggest challenges probably facing in stty now from a UA perspective since they're doing this and setting up their own UA and how would you do these soft launches differently so it's not like differently it's just you need to have a plan because they can do I mean they can make mistakes that uh they will make decisions based on these mistakes so I me like for the idle breaker I think they ran unity and apping and they're now kind of like I guess getting to scale something but again where is Facebook Google other channels uh and then they have us only for now which is I guess the the old Hy hyper casual kind of soft Louch plan to get some some data so I mean like if you if you think about this fine but then

you need to have different types of campaigns as well and enough enough data to be able to see like how the LTV grows and like what's kind of retention different channels also different retention curves and different theal TV curves as well so like that's important and like I I'm not sure if these are these guys are getting these and like what is the the actual plan like where they how they want to acquire user where isn't the plan just like have us CPI kind of relevant metric as soon as possible and then figure out based on that yeah that was like Hy hyper casual kind of style right right now you don't there there were hyper casuals to build yeah I know yeah yeah I know I know I know I know it's like kind of like nobody knows how to do it with hybrids efficiently I mean like do you just resem the game or like resem the early part of it and then like throw it in team and see or like how would you do it then I mean in terms of what in terms of UA no to keep the velocity of like we

want to test as much games as possible still but we want to get like immediate results and stuff like that because with Hyper casuals it's easy but like with these games actually you need to build those you know I know you need to build those but I guess you know you have the let's say the the bestest Escape game is the like the Bare Bones that you can is still kind of massive compared to any hyper casual yeah yeah because like it still looks like MVP so now they have it in the US and getting data but I don't see like any UA so I guess they're just getting Organics which is also not very relevant to be honest or maybe they're just kind of cross promoting the games from one to another which I also don't think it's happening so anyway uh yeah you could do Us only for a certain period of time or just open beta and then just get kind of like open the the game to the whole world and get some kind of not featuring but free Organics which is from the whole world and kind

of measure retention on that but uh you need to get to up even and optimize campaigns as soon as possible and you since you have like both iips and uh and ads I would even say you need to go to purchase campaigns quite early to figure out like how it works if difference this is the difference with HBY because HBY can test their whole monetization progression whatever what not because they just switch in yeah they yeah they already have that like the packs the the currencies the economy is all the same here it's different core gameplay yeah and I think why they don't run UA yet because now I think the idle breaker is kind of like only now it's picking up it's still a gross month over month so I guess like they're kind of figuring out what should they do on the UA side and until they figure that out on idle breaker then they kind of uh use that on on West I looked on L they have they have one UA manager who's been there three years but

there's two companies right so yeah mean two no two accounts oh just two accounts it's one company just two accounts one company they two have two LinkedIn Pages as well one ATI and one ATI Villers okay maybe we don't know something here yeah maybe we don't know something anyway that's so I think uh it could be just two different uh offices but that's like maybe too complicated yeah but the the thing that I'm pointing here and like this is really interesting is that this pretty much confirms the trend that I've been talking about my latest kind of Conference Track talks lately that it was just a matter of time when all of these hyper casual Studios now now pretty much can force to do hybrids anyway are trying their own luck to do the thing without the Publishers because they had the product knowhow before but they you know they can build as many of these games as they can like we see here like why not build three of the same game and change yes but but now you need

UA creatives ad monation that analytics so it's like I mean honestly I always kind of say like look the Publishers expertise pretty much because on own yeah yeah now you're on your own because I mean yeah it's it's quite hard uh obviously you don't need to hire like Team all the time you can just hire us as well that's that's easy also possible that's also possible but like honestly with this like if you have already free games in the pipeline you definitely need the data analytics and uh and also like at least like you said one UA I mean you don't even need UA person for full time but you need creatives for sure so at least like a partner it doesn't need to be publisher but someone who who actually knows what he or she is doing and that's important yeah yeah because you can you can see like the pro product knoow is excellent in a way like G play progressions are connected let's

say we have the H model here then there's like different ones in the Martian game and uh yes but you don't have the say games [ __ ] amazing UA team yeah yeah that's the thing and that's the question that's the million doll questions will these Studios be able to actually do it themselves and leave Publishers forever yeah was it because of their UA teams or because the product was so good that's a milar that's that's a very good question actually we're about to see right yeah we're definitely about to see and can we keep following this because it's like I'm I'm starting to think that lately like is this like let's say you have a failed game don't want to say failed game you have a game with unscalable CPI yeah so the answer is what risking it like is is this whole strategy that we seeing here like implying it yeah definitely yes I mean if if you know if you don't have if you have a hybrid with unscalable CPI risking it yeah like why not I mean like unscalable CPI like

nobody was I I don't think so anybody was doing it with like you know all the helic jumps and whole of course maybe a little bit uh you had these like games that were copying each other uh and each other I'm same Studio really releasing the game on their own account with a different team that that wasn't happening no no that wasn't happening because if if if a hyper casual game failed so so whate and next one nobody was like you know spending this amount of resources in order to like three of the same game no no no because it was like oh well we have only one game to make another prototype so [ __ ] it why why why should we RK in if I see another medieval merge ad I'm GNA [ __ ] kill myself seriously stop playing that game just just still stand stand still it's terrible but yeah if you do work at EST like please

feel free to answer my email that I sent you guys a couple of weeks ago inviting you to come on the Pod we'd love to have you on talk about these games or if you think we talking complete [ __ ] and like our assumptions are completely out of the B again feel free to correct us we will be very yeah because that could that could definitely definely happen and probably it's happening yeah but honestly EST like it's it's definitely one we're going to keep an eye on and as soon as this either any other their game scales we'll definitely do a review of exactly that game because you know it's big news that a publisher of this caliber in size is just uh I mean game Studio developer is going like going without a publisher yeah yeah that would definitely and fingers cross for it guys but it's going to happen like y said like yeah the smaller like hyper casual Studios kind of realize like they kind they earned decent money on on the publishing deals I guess and they they kind of realized like oh wellow we can build those games right so we know how

to build games so why don't we do it on our own because because that that that's like what's happening here because hybrid casual games now need much more product knowhow and Leverage is Shifting exactly because the yeah I mean I would I would not say genre expertise but yeah the product know how you know you need to know how to build the games properly yeah yeah all according to the plan yeah good luck guys and yeah we'll definitely keep it if you need help let us know and with that uh thank you very much for listening uh please join our slack uh as you could hear it's pretty interesting and uh the knowledge is there um all the time please also uh keep subscribing uh our subscriber count uh really increases day by day which is amazing thank you very much for the support and uh see you next time bye cheers C

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