BreederDAO: The Factory of the Metaverse - The Metacast by Naavik

[Music] gm friends and welcome to the metacast brought to you by navik my name is nico and today i'm joined by renz chong the co-founder and ceo of breeder dao um the last episode i was recording live from brighton in the uk and today we're in paris um it's it's it's actually doable today so yesterday was the hottest day in france ever there was a heat wave and there was a heat wave it was terrible and so we were in this room trying to do like panel discussions for ygg and it was um it was it was it was like a sauna and you know um but okay look today is fine we're refreshed we're ready to go so uh the idea today would be to talk about breeder dao what breeder that i was doing um where breeder diaries go dow is going and yeah a bit more aerobic around you know assets within the metaverse and that kind of stuff so you know rents

when i saw that you guys announced a raise the start of this year um breeder dao was described as the factory of the miniverse could you elaborate a bit on that and what what is breeder now doing and what's your business model etc sure so maybe i'll go back to how we actually started to give things perspective so we really started just by reading fc infinity so you know how the actual economy within actually is composed of like you know players and breeders right uh the fly the fly will work such that people who actually play get slp slps then used to breed and once you breed more axes then you can onboard more people right so at one point like june 2021 uh and because we were situated in the philippines we saw the entire landscape right a lot of people left and right we're asking for scholarships we're asking for guild managers right and they all wanted to join uh and because we're quite close with the ygg ecosystem my mentor uh was also the one who introduced me to like this entire space uh is also a close advisor to ygg so we're pretty close to

the space so we were thinking that you know maybe everybody is too focused on the demand side of things on player liquidity uh grinding for slp and like you know um building more axes to accommodate more scholars we thought that maybe there's an opportunity on the supply side and when we look at the marketplace the asset that the axis prices went from 200 to 800 and so we thought that maybe there's an opportunity to capture there so i pitched it to the same mentor my mentor then gave 180k dollars in less than three months we were able to generate six million dollars in revenues and close to 1.5 million in terms of profits so we thought that you know just like any bull market in crypto we were able to ride the wave and it was like luck right more than anything so we stopped and then we kind of thought about it more right but nothing changed when we got in contact with gabby because gabby was like you know the actual problem is the lack of quality as in the market right because

there's a lot of scholars looking to play x infinity there's a lot of people looking to play because they can earn right so yeah he was like uh that's the single most uh uh that's a single problem in the space which is why people cannot expand because uh funding was never an issue because there were a lot of life easies at least during that time there was a lot there were a lot of veggies were constantly like you know giving out money to all of these like guilds right left and right um guilds were popping right so it wasn't an issue at all uh and then there's no problem with uh player base because just in the philippines you have so many people who lost their jobs during the dynamic and are looking to find alternative sources of income and actually infinity at one point provided a higher minimum wage than the minimum wage in the philippines even in manila so overall like uh the real bottleneck was a supply side so we thought about it more we asked more guilds more games and was shared sentiment across everyone so we were like okay i think we can specialize in producing assets within games just by

leveraging offline in-game mechanics right but you know we we thought about it more and what we like we realized is that we don't want to just create assets that are only that are allowed for by the games right eventually as the factory we also want to expand to be able to create our own assets what does that mean right now when it comes to games you have breathing you have crafting you have cloning right and in the future you know there may be other modes of like asset generation but we want to introduce the idea of community creation within these games so you wanted me to create a platform that would allow people to have their own or design their own assets and then put that within the games kind of like cosmetics or skins that exist right now right so that's one of the visions that we have uh it could be you know wearables for your digital avatars or like furnitures for your homes uh this scale is going to be really huge and there's no limit to whatever it is that we want to produce as long as you're in

a metaverse and you want to create an asset for it then we should be able to cover okay so it was a lot to cover so let's take this step by step you started initially last summer when the axi boom happened and you saw um if i understand this correctly you saw an arbitrage opportunity between the price of slp which was needed to breed new axis and the price of new axis and the way they were or the price at which they were sold in the marketplace pretty much so it's more of like the cost to produce and add yeah was so much lower than the cost that's been sold yes okay and so you decided hey you know why don't we just um you know and and you productized it you made it so super hyper efficient and you basically you bothered it almost yeah that'd be a fair characterization and so we kind of specialize in uh optimizing for specific traits that we know are gonna dominate in a match right so when assy

changed the meta and well not the meta but the the mechanics such that only people who participate or win in the pvp actually get slp then that allowed for more people or that enabled more people to kind of think and design and craft like ass axes that are far superior than others because previously when you know you can get easily 150 slp from adventure right then it doesn't matter what you actually look like or or what trade they pass right even the worst axes can actually achieve 150 slp as long as you spend enough time yes and when they actually remove that part then it became more strategic in a sense right you have to conserve your energy because that's the only way you'll get slp and if you don't reach dakota then you know oftentimes you get kicked out of the guild right so it became more strategic and more competitive in terms of landscape and we we kind of optimized for specific traits that would allow you to win in a match okay we with navig did a very deep breakdown of the axe infinity economy and we saw indeed that some of the shifts that were happening also on the

economic side was that skill was more rewarded than just purely time and then you know okay you saw the opportunity there or the demand at least there for the best assets right so fun little story you know i heard about x infinity pretty early on and when the boon boom happened i was like i gotta try this right so i paid a out of money for three axes um and they were absolutely terrible i couldn't win a match so i should have probably you know used your your you should have yeah you should have i've showed you exactly so um okay that's cool and so what you do is you analyze the meta you see what's the team composition or the the certain traits that have the highest percentage of winning do you do that um like based on analytics is there like an analytics platform so uh we actually get our data from two sources the first one is by actually playing the game so within reader now we actually have like game analysts who's tasked to just play the game understand like the meta and then tell us like what sorts of bills actually work for like which ranking so

because there's different mmr rankings and for each range there's a specific kind of assets depending on what these guys are actually using the second one is through data data analytics so we track the marketplace see what's actually being bred see also like what's being sold right so we also attract liquidity in a sense like you want to find like a niche where people are where there's a constant volume of assets or particular assets and traits that are being sold and that's what we kind of optimize for at least in the back end yeah okay and um we actually on this podcast a few months ago we had a discussion about the future of guilds and specifically targeted at becoming an esports organization and you know we were talking about a hypothetical world where you had certain in-game items that you know every time you generated them they had like a random characteristic which was maybe normally distributed on the it could be go very bad or very good and so i guess you know the way you would see yourself in such a environment would be

to like you know generate a ton of these assets and then like try to optimize to have the the the long tail of good good characteristics yep well i guess like you know even though it's actually normalized there's still a way for you to boost like certain uh occurrence of like specific characteristics right at least that's part of like the game should be part of it so we try and maximize that uh probability and because of the rate at which we can produce assets because we also build technology that allows for us to uh produce these assets at scale then chances are we'll have like the largest pool of like best assets just because we optimize for it by uh the highest probability as well as like we produce the most assets right so by nature like we should be able to get like the most okay and then and you're saying that okay on the long term you see yourself more on the user-generated content side where you um help users players to you know give them

the tools to actually create things and add value within the games that you're focusing on yep so i feel like what's lacking in a lot of these games right now is the attachment that players usually have with their assets right so the guild model although it's quite revolutionary right it has one flaw the assets are not owned by the players and they're actually using it as a means to generate income so in that sense they're already detached from their assets and the objective is not to collect these assets but instead to utilize them to earn a living for themselves i'm not saying that's bad right because i admit that there's there are always people who are going to play these games to earn and that has always existed even before blockchain gaming tension impact for example uh is a game that i always use as a reference because when i was starting gentian impact people were already selling me accounts because at the start you earn like a

certain pool of like gems and then you're able to use those gems to actually reroll characters and it's rng based right so as long as you create like tons of account try to work on the rng then you might luck out on getting like a good character and if you luck out on that and it so happened that you know this new guy who wants to enter who has money wants to actually get a character and instead of him like trying to recreate these accounts he can just buy it straight from you so yeah i mean peop there were only people who would play to earn um and i guess that isn't bad that is actually like you know a specific profile or demographic of players within the ecosystem and it's hard for us to rule them out because it's not up to us to actually rule them out players should play depending on how they actually want to play it right and it's not like you know we should bar these guys from playing just because they extract value from the economy right uh instead we should design these games to target like different individuals or different profiles and allow them to enjoy the game based on how they want to enjoy it

do you think that your participation so what you're doing is you're optimizing um you're essentially like arbitraging inefficiencies um within the game and so you're making it harder from for someone who is not optimizing to actually win i would say right if you're an average player you buy some average axes because breeder dao is optimizing so much and providing like like top meta liquidity of assets it's like the average team will be stronger which makes it harder for an average person who's not in touch with the meta to actually win so would do you think that a game would be more fun without a participant like you're like greater than uh i think it varies because even though we say we're the largest player right uh because of how you know breeding works and that everyone can actually breed right we only really produce like

uh our peak we only really produce like three to five percent of the total market supply so it's still decentralized enough that people actually participate and are able to produce their own and even if we say that we don't participate people are still going to produce like assets better than someone else right so it's part of the game to actually study it and to try and formulate things it's part of what makes it fun right but i feel like you know it's also unfair because right now or during that time there was only one game so we were all competing in the same battlefield but eventually you know the more games that are uh you know in the market then the more optimization can happen the more people are the more uh opportunities for people to be able to participate right so um it's just that when we started it was only one game and people all flocked to that game so we became dominant in that game but i think like the game still provided a ton of opportunity for a lot of people just because of how reading works it doesn't

like so so there's no like limit to the number of people who can read right it's not like you know if you have a badge then that's the those are the only people who can actually breed right so because there's no limiting to that there's there's no limit to the number of people who can actually read and participate then you know i don't think like you know a a market without breed it out is more efficient because ultimately like if not readered out then someone else would actually write a challenge and be you know the number one there you remind me of these hedge funds or like large financial institutions who do arbitraging of like different currencies across markets um and you know when you ask them like what are you doing because i think you know often regular people actually suffer from their arbitraging uh and then their answer is you know but if we don't do it someone else will right exactly so that's your answer okay noted um good but it's not just that i think you know because there's actually an opportunity there then i mean it we're not actually stopping you from

doing the same thing right you can do it yourself so yes so it's not that someone is going to do it but it's an open market yeah but because so i mean i would say that because there's now a financial incentive to have almost like to have a phd in in like you know in in the game itself if that makes sense right uh it you actually like as a as a company right as where is it now and we can go into the dao aspect later you you know are so strongly financially incentivized to optimize everything so much that the game becomes less fun for those who are not optimizing that like um and so i guess my conclusion is um because i think i agree with you like you personally um if you were wouldn't be doing what you do someone else would do it and so i think this is purely a consequence of the dynamics that's putting assets on chain and having a kind of you know um randomly generated assets that um actually influence um like utility within the game it's it's just like a natural consequence of that

and just because you know we as humans are you know greedy as as you know we we're just gonna try and use it uh to our advantage to make as much money as possible you know i feel like because it's also an economy right people tend to have like different roles within the economy um we kind of specialize in providing otc deals to guilds and if we don't actually do it for them then they're just going to read it on their own we've encountered some guilds who don't even know like what it is they're doing and so you know one of the girls that we've worked with actually relies on their scholars to tell them like which assets they should make and so instead of doing that we approached them and told them that you know we can actually do it for you so in that sense uh we're not actually competing against like this marketplace or the market or the the the volume in the marketplace because we're actually creating a different volume or we're touching a different volume

and in that sense you know if we don't do it then they'll do it themselves they might arrive at the same you know assets only like longer or like more expensive but ultimately if they actually go with us then it's actually a shortcut so it's more efficient in that sense that makes sense and so um what percentage of the assets that you create do you sell odc and otc means over the counter directly like you make a deal with like a guild the guild will be like okay we have a thousand scholars so we need three thousand top tier axes um so can we buy them for you know x amount of dollars um what's the the percentages there uh you want it specific to axi because we produce like four or six different things and for the most part like for the other five games we did it like marketplace so if it's a total then the the the ratio would be 30 to 70 30 for the guilds and then 70 the marketplace but if we're looking at purely x infinity then i think in terms of like value that's going to be like 70 30.

okay yeah um what so you mentioned six other games which are those well five other games so six games in total that's right yeah so axie pegasi carbada uh fancy birds civil as well as crypto unicorns okay okay gotcha um and so all of these games if i'm not mistaken have a kind of breeding type dynamic and or they might be called different right but it's the same yeah well cyball it's mentoring but yeah it's not the same mostly reading yeah and so you know if you break down reading like how do you look at it from an and like across games like is it always the same thing where you like need one or multiple assets and then you you get like like a randomization function is called upon which tracer you inherit i mean currently with the games or with the games released on blockchain like most of them are the same uh it's also natural for it to happen that way because actually infinity was kind of a standard right and everybody

pretty much copied the same model especially after the success but in the future of course we're going to see like a lot more iterations especially now as people are seeing like the floss wait what's happening right uh and we can only improve from here right so um we're or we're like we're quite certain that there will be more improvements and variations in the future and we will not be slowly locked in towards like a singular type of breeding where you just have two acids you combine it or you can have like one acid and combine it and then you get like an egg or a baby right and you wait for it to hatch and then you repeat the same cycle over and over again if you look at the six games that you're operating in um what differentiates each game from another in terms of um i guess the dynamics as you just said are the same or broadly the same between the games but um what decides how much effort you put in it how many um assets that you really breed and how much revenue you get

i think what differentiates them would be the game place um axia infinity and karbada are similar in terms of gameplay it's like a 3v3 right and then card battler but pegasi is like an rng you have fancy birds which is a hyper casual game similar to flappy birds right and then you have crypto games which is for uh crypto unicorns which is like a farming game so because of the genre of these games then there are different stats that you have to optimize for and depending on the nature of the game say you know if it's actually infinity then it needs to be the combination of these three assets right you wanna optimize or you wanna make sure that the combination of traits across the three assets are perfect because it's a co-op at least between the three right and then you have pegasi where it's an individual uh horse fighting against like all the other horse uh

and it's a bit you know speculative in terms of like how the stats affect these uh or how does that oh how does that affect like the win ability or the win rate of like these horses so i feel like in terms of optimization that's where it matters especially on our end because we're optimizing for specific or different things if actually infinity we have to optimize for specific cards in pegasi we have to optimize for a specific breed type or like a specific genotype right so i think that's where they differ at least right now but essentially if you try and look at it you're optimizing for something and that something kind of predicts like the winnability of an asset yeah makes a lot of sense and so what do you think went wrong with all of these games or most of these games right um you know actually slp went down the prices of axi went down um i think you know many of the

other games have a similar type of trajectory so um in in your words or in your view what went wrong i think it's not what went wrong but we've actually learned from this because actually infinity kind of started by introducing you know the ability to earn within games and it actually opened our eyes to see like what sorts of value blockchain actually provides especially when it comes to gaming because income before um was possible possible right you have black markets by or you have operating or you have black market operations selling you know a bunch of stuff like within games but not actually allowed by these games right and then all all of a sudden you know you have actually infinity where you can own your asset and you can actually and as a consequence to that you can actually sell these assets and because you can sell these assets then you can earn from these assets right so it opened our eyes to one of the key

utility of blockchain which is because of ownership then you can participate in a decentralized marketplace hence allowing it to earn uh and i think like that's uh i wouldn't say that's like the only step that we would have taken to be able to open the eyes of like a lot of people to you know gaming or like to blockchain gaming but i think it was a necessary step for us to be able to progress right towards the next step so now that we know that this kind of model doesn't work and you know to some extent people call it like a ponzi ish scheme because at one point you wouldn't be able to catch on to the demand or rather the supply that's being generated um by just encouraging or onboarding more people right so i think because it's flat right now and you know people talk about like sinks or or burns right and people are saying that you know we

need to add more burns or sinks to be able to make the economy more sustainable but i guess my question is like do we really need to make the economy sustainable or do we need to make like the game like better in terms of everything right is it the economy that we have to optimize for or is it the game itself because people seem to think that you know these are two separate things but game economies have always existed right and people didn't necessarily optimize for these economies yes they try to make it better so that you know the experience is i guess more real and you know in a sense you can also gamify economies right but if you try to optimize for economies such that you know everyone can actually earn then i don't think that's ever going to be sustainable or that's even realistic right because if you look at the earlier models it's just new money being passed on to old players and the moment that new money

stops coming in then you have no choice but to actually let the people who are still in the game suffer so yeah i mean that's my general perspective on what's happening and what happened for a lot of these games okay so just try to summarize right you saw that um through blockchain we there is a possibility to i guess drive back value towards the players instead of all of that staying within the game uh but your general thought is that you don't see the play to earn concept work at least not on a broad scale within a game like we shouldn't have the expectation that you know or at least for now maybe that people you know would have a job playing these games and um i guess then your argument would be and this is you know just me saying that for you so feel free to correct me um that the people who earn should perhaps be the ones that are the most skilled with the game would that be a good idea well in general like anyone

who actually contributes right which is why some people think that you know there shouldn't be like any secondary token where you can just farm it consistently and said value should be created from the governance token if you actually contribute or participate towards the betterment of the game or it should be actually catered towards you know the nfts themselves and then as it apprecia asset may appreciate or depreciate depending on whether or not you know it actually provides a good meta within the game so yeah i mean i think yes in a sense like it should be given towards their most skilled players but only if those killed players actually contributed the game okay we can't have like everyone's like earning right or winning in terms of like uh on the financial aspect yeah no i totally agree um it's what i think a lot of people have been saying right um okay so it's um we go away from play and earn but it's contribute and earn that that's what you're saying uh yes although again as i've said like play and earn

isn't necessarily like a thing that i would push myself people can play and earn people can play to earn people can play their own or play and own right it's not up to us to actually decide or to design for that specific profile of users we shouldn't build like games for these specific people uh these specific like individuals right because they're actually three billion players actually infinity was able to get like three million uh at its peak and you know that's only a small subsection right so we know that like maybe play to earn can target three million people um there are different other profiles that we need to target in order to capture that entire three billion people okay okay that's fair what is um you like what are your thoughts on the concept of breeding so you said you know from what we've seen for maxi right the token price and the nft price collapsed um we need to learn from that

do you think there is a similar model that would work sustainably and for example like if you could change a thing in within the axi gameplay or economy what would you change to make it sustainable or have you given up i haven't given up for sure right and it's hard to actually say like what would work versus what wouldn't work but i try to kind of change some small variables kind of like you know when you're when you're doing like a scientific experiment right you have like a base model and you can try to change like a few variables here and there to see how the population or how you know it will interact with each other so you know maybe things like you're actually having or your axi parts like breaking and then you would need to have a sink say slp burn to be able to repair it again i don't know i wouldn't claim to be an expert in terms of game design or

game economies but yeah these small changes actually may affect like a lot of people and you know you you won't really know like what we succeed unless you actually try it out and succeed yeah and it doesn't matter that if it succeeds for one game then it will surely affect like or it would surely be like a model that's replicable across like every single game so i don't know like how it would work but uh in terms of sustainability it's really going to be hard to predict or to say like what would actually work versus what wouldn't okay so you're saying that if you if you build a game um the only way to know if it's truly sustainable is to actually test it out yes it's very hard to muddle out yeah sustainability yep okay and then it really depends on like the kind of people that you're able to attract right if naturally you know you design a game such that it's easy for people to earn money from it then you can expect that you know the pool of individuals that you're going to be able to trap or to attract would be you know those who are

just looking to earn from it so if you design a game that targets like different profiles then i guess it would be easier for you to kind of think about like you know should i design an economy for like a specific individual or like should it be like for a broader audience and then i'd see like the demographics that i'm able to like attract based on you know the kind of game that i actually design okay do you think we'll ever have these types of games um you know reach mass mass audience like 100 million plus players could be because i think like you know designing a blockchain game isn't really super different from like of course you have like smart contracts and the increase intricacies of like you know nfts um but i think at the core of it like it still provides entertainment right and we've seen like uh a ton of genre of games from play to uh pay to win sorry and uh free to play right and these genres didn't really

differ that much i mean you have free to play uh hyper cash flow cash flow right and then you know we're seeing the same set of games um that are being developed right now uh within the blockchain gaming space and even a triple a games right are being developed in the space so if we were able to do it in the past and blockchain ultimately just allows for people to be able to own their asset then i don't think i believe that there is no reason for us to not achieve the same success as we have like for free today yep okay worst case scenario um the breeding cycle turns out to never result in like a sustainable economy just because it is you know abused by players like yourself right um and optimized so much that the games that are resulting from it are actually never fun to play right in the end you need in order for people to take money out i guess you need to have players that

bring money in and that's usually i know it's often also wales but on the other hand there's also this long tail of newer players that are not super skilled that are just enjoying the game and they if they feel that because you know the system is is gained so much that they just have a disadvantage at every turn it might just never gain direction um long entry to ask what do like what does breeder dao do you know that's very interesting because people seem to think that uh what we do is actually quite linear and that you know we only just rely on like the breeding within games but it's in the name man yes it's you guys take that yes although it's actually yeah we just we just we just made it so so that it pays tribute to yeah um the game that started always tax infinity but uh we actually specialize in asset generation so that includes crafting for example and we've seen how crafting has always been uh something that games have right within

games not as leaners breeding where you just combine assets right but you collect like certain recipes you try to upgrade it right and then there's chances that you break an asset and sometimes you know the the price to actually make an asset uh factoring late or all the wastage and all the for all the breakage right would actually be more expensive than just buying it from a merchant who knows how to optimize these things and that i feel like is going to be our positioning in terms of the market but aside from that uh as i've said earlier like we don't just want to work within like uh game mechanics right we also want to introduce like ugc as you said a platform for users to be able to create and personalize their own assets and put it in their game right so it's touching on interoperability but it touches more on the creativity of the people and of the community okay okay so what you're saying in in the first part was that you know you're essentially focused on you know

asset generation within nft based games and that's currently is mainly done through breeding um but there will be games where you have to combine a bunch of assets which could be nfts and or erc20 tokens just fundamental tokens um and combine them into other resources and you're gonna do it in such an optimized way that um you can basically provide it at the cheapest price for for players yes okay um okay and then you know over time i guess then you're also saying like uh whenever there's a ugc component there then you will also try i guess to optimize the utility from that ugc component or give people the tools to make the best assets they can yep well not the best assets in terms of like you know like game domination right yes best assets in terms of like how they look yeah how they want their characters to look like okay what are some of the the games that you're interested in or that seem to be going in the two second directions where it's more like a crafting thing or a um

or a ugc generation thing so in terms of crafting uh there's guild of guardians right uh at least like in the near term number sword seems to also have like a crafting uh ugc you have shrapnel in terms of like their land uh being able to like you know create their own like maps um but i haven't really seen like any ugc for avatars at least not yet so it's mostly common uh within the metaverse the central land allows you to create your own designs and upload it right and even sell it right so yeah um we want to bring that component to games as well because we believe that people also value how they look within games you have people playing you know league of legends fortnite mobile legends and they value their skin even though it doesn't add like any thing to their stats it's really more of like you know as a bragging right or like you know for sure

and you know sometimes that's all what people need to be able to enjoy the game and people uh are doing it now so why not also do it on blockchain yeah that's true um before i want to touch upon the dao part piece of what you're doing as well but before that um there's one interesting question that i've been asking people um and i've always had oh i have my opinion of this as i usually do in these questions and so my question for you is if you look at the big mmos that already exist that are very popular i've noticed that pretty much like 50 of the people i meet with within my three like played world of warcraft or runescape um or both yeah so my question to you is do you feel like these games would have been as successful as they were if they had been like a fully on chain where the economies would have been open well so the game doesn't live on chain but all the assets would be nfts or uh fungible tokens

that's a very interesting question uh people also say that these were the original blockchain i think it might be uh in the sense that you know because that's how the game is actually framed anyway so you know you just made it easier via blockchain but it could also be like because you made it easier then it's not as fun for people to actually do it uh although again like it's hard to say because we can't just go back in time and redo it right uh i'd say like the quality of games during that time also helped because i think they were also ahead in terms of like you know how they actually position themselves uh and if you were to maybe recreate the game with the current landscape that we have and we have all sorts of games that can compete with them right it might not have the same

traction as it had like before but yeah i mean eve for example is also one interesting game that kind of is like a an economy based game right and the economy is the game so uh yeah that's i i'd love to see like how it would actually fare uh when it's actually built on blockchain so yeah good good all right let's touch upon the second part of the name of what you're building breeder dao so um where does the dao element come come in and what you're doing until now um it seems like you could do it just very centralized as a company it was a business yep you know the dao is pretty interesting because as you said right we're a factory and factories tend to be more centralized right and rightly so because we don't expect people especially the holders of the token to just quit their jobs and just join us full time and run the dao because they have some

skin in the game right and i don't think like anyone has actually perfected like how a dao should look like but for me like dao um at least like how we're starting would be a hybrid of centralized and decentralized in a sense it's like sidow right you have a component that's centralized but you also have a decentralized component that allows for the organization to participate so i just watched stringer things which is like hive mind is actually very you know uh arrests resonates with me like really well i still believe that you know uh many heads uh many brains would still be contributing towards like the betterment of bow versus like you know just one or like a pool of individuals because there are a lot of things that we're not seeing uh blockchain is very early and even though you know you have like a specific individual for every specific game uh i don't think that that individual would be able to see it all

so for our case we want to leverage or we want to ask help from the community to look at like what's out there right how the game fight land oh how the gaming with landscape at least on blockchain would actually change and how then we can actually further the development and the innovation within the space because right now you know these games aren't really set in terms of where they're gonna head towards and so there's a lot of things that can change and we don't know like how that would change and people like helping us in terms of seeing that change would actually be a really good help in terms of determining like where we want to go from that vision but also like we don't even know like who are the people within our community as well we're actually trying to see like what sorts of individuals were able to attract are these the more gamer type are these you know more data driven like people uh in which case you know we want to do

a slower slower roll out of the things that we hand off to the dao depending on the skill set and the capabilities of the individuals within bell so yeah it's it's a lot right and yeah it's also a question that we've been asking ourselves right we set out to be a dao but that what does that really mean right so i mean just recently we launched our governance uh in our discourse so we want to know how people would react to a thing uh to do something like a constitution that would basically act as like a guideline to what we believe in and how we operate as a group and the things that we can or cannot do based on you know certain legal implications right so yeah i mean from there like uh hopefully we'll be able to gauge like the kind of people you might not know that you have a ton of lawyers within the dao or token holders right and maybe you start off by you know giving some legal works to the dao or

you know maybe some analytics to the dao so yeah pretty interesting are you working together with games right now because i can imagine that they're either excited by what you're doing or afraid about what you're doing what's the sentiment you know we actually work closely with the games so our promise to them is that it's not as though like we'll just flood their market right and we wouldn't want that either because how then could we actually generate profits so the way we work with the games would be more of understanding what it is that they're actually creating and sharing information in terms of what worked and what didn't right so from the pool of games that we have and from the full of games that we've been tracking what did they do and then what happened when they actually did what right and then aside from that it's really more of like brainstorming together because nobody has this proper formula to be able to get create

that sustainable game right so it's really more bouncy ideas um if you do this how would this react right and then how do we as like you know the provider of assets the guilds be able to help them like you know share their um game to the guilds especially the the micro guilds that we call who do not have the same visibility as the larger ones right so yeah it's really one of them okay and um if so there's a bunch of people who are building games listening to this if they want to get in touch with you where can they find you i mean we're everywhere on twitter or on uh telegram so i myself they can ping me if they want to uh i've had a lot of people like reach out to me via linkedin or twitter okay and i might not respond immediately but i'll make sure i actually read and respond like you know within 24 to 48 hours wow respect respect so um what we know

now is that renz doesn't sleep a lot um safe to conclude here i think it's most of us never sleeps right that is that is very true well um ren's this was um this was super insightful super interesting i really enjoyed our like i am i'm gonna keep thinking about you know what you do and what it means for games and how we can like how that can work synergistically i think it's uh it's an interesting um interesting open question i think the ugc one will be like really huge especially for the games yeah yeah okay cool all right well rinse thank you so much for joining um this was a pleasure so um yeah listener you thank you for listening as well um i hope you found it as interesting and insightful as i did um if you liked it feel free to give us a good rating subscribe and that good stuff if you want to learn more you can subscribe to the navic newsletter and we often do deep dives in the games that we discussed today maybe at some point and breed your dow as well who knows um and if you want to have access to that

yeah i'll send it to you but if and but if you also would like to see some of these uh industry breakdowns you can always um subscribe to navic pro and you can use the code metacast there to get uh some discounts so um yeah with that we're out and we look forward to speaking to you in the next episode ciao [Music] you