Where it all starts: Episode 1

[Music] and welcome to game development Unchained this is the best podcast to learn about getting into and through the video game development industry I am one of the two hosts the better-looking one this is Larry Charles I am the level designer and I would like to introduce the co-host best friend environment artist awesome athlete incredible game developer and wise man beyond his years mr. Brandon Pham oh you're so kind I am the less handsome host Brandon Pam hey John you're not supposed to acknowledge the insole plug it in on his podcast we're gonna have an honest conversation about the game in the street yes so how about I just ask you a quick question mr. Brandon Pham how long do they make a video game it's just so everyone who's listening can know I've been working in industry for over eight years I started

my career out in that teeny rim on by dr. Seuss I worked on various projects since then Lost Planet 3 XCOM and recently called duty advanced warfare Omega mid advanced warfare yeah yeah so I let's see dang it's been so long the first game that I'm known for is yards revenge is a DLC comment or you know Xbox 360 and ps3 game was a small I've heard of it yeah after that was Lost Planet 3 yes so we both worked on lots planet yes you did it's funny and then after that was I went to Call of Duty advanced warfare yeah so it's probably where I we have such a good relationship because we work together and what's college good yep and now I guess good now we podcast together Lost Planet 3 was our first project after college professor it was a fun project for as

long as it lasted yes oh you're talking about for you about me I was wondering why you smile is something illegal is a good project okay I'll see your video accurate for well cuz we're recording the podcast as they just need the voice well yeah yeah it's uh my faithful especially when a lot of exceed there you go uh so can you see me now yes but none of the listeners can see me so he's like yet it's private and intimate for no reason I thought that I like seeing the people I collected all right cool so moving forward once again everybody if you listen to this thank you very much for joining our podcast there were thousands and hundreds of thousands even a podcast to choose from you spending an hour with us we appreciate it thank you oh let me ask you this what makes us unique what's so special what we know great tea table I

mean hello so just so you guys know you're gonna get an unadulterated unfiltered and unspun serve you into the game industry I don't mean unspotted as in no one can ever give us money for a commercial because this that's fine but no one is ever gonna write us a cue card oh this game is the best game that you could possibly buy for like now we're we're here to give you the truth we've gone from school to independent game development to professional game development we've worked on small games big games we know the house wise reasons and every little nuance behind game development and a lot of people out there probably don't know these things they don't know you know the low down that we have the insight that we have and then all the connections that we have right so sure you can listen to a podcast from two journalists who play a lot of video games and you know no disrespect to them that's awesome like I

definitely like competition but in this sense we actually work in the industry we still work in the industry we work at companies that don't mind us doing this and we've got connections right like yeah my host with this podcast is to bring against the we troupe as well as the great stuff about the game the stream that you might have heard about you know bring on interesting people that can relate to not just being in games in for game it's people that either have gone into independent companies that form their own projects outside of triple-a transitioned into a self-funded type of environment for themselves where they're not at the whims of the corporate needs or our punishments so hopefully we will bring you that type of entertainment that you can relate to and hopefully also learn a thing or two you know so

let's let's take it back to the start Brennan why did you decide to go to school to learn how to make video games instead of just you know give it a shot and see what happens I gotta say I didn't know that it was a thing until I start flipping through magazines at Barnes and Nobles so I was duped in a way like I was I was baited by the AI Institute of California in Orange County I saw the ad in my junior year of high school I decided to check it out and went to the orientation they got me they said you know ninety thousand dollars and you can get a job and you just bought and so that I feel that was the first thing about the industry and I know I don't want to sound sour at Greek times but I think right now the beauty of the game industry is exactly this

moment where we're independent developers are able to make the game they wants and are in charge of what the creative needs that they didn't hungry for for all these years so it's an exciting time but uh yeah that's how I started off my career let me ask you a question so you said the artist Atun hasn't paid $90,000 or maybe the on-campus orientation pay $90,000 and when you graduate you'll get a job yes okay let me see this are you working in the game industry right now I am working so did they lie to you they promised exactly what you had yeah I I would say it's 99% all me and one force and AI I mean the truth is like 99% of students that we graduated with license you know Larry night when the college together did not make they are still looking for jobs yeah there's a lot of people who

stood right next to me and got their diploma who are still looking for their first legitimate job I'm not gonna lie it's their filling filling up my LinkedIn messages with three months what do you mean by that ask for a job that's what's up oh hey Brennan haven't talked to you like ten years hey man check out my portfolio I don't know slide it on the desk of somebody who can give me a job yeah well we need to hang out again just like old times it's getting pretty dangerous i'm i'm glad that linkedin lets you preview without clicking on it because they can see that you see it don't explain that like the little scene icon and you never respond back linkedin knows he knows they know what's up so I'm assuming based on your response that's you probably wouldn't go the college route if you do a second time I think I think now it is we have so much possibilities to to not only self

publish but self teach at a cheaper alternative you know the online web is growing every day and now people like us who are coming out of industry are directly connected students so I think it's a matter of time for AI and all those Institute's or establishments will stop clowning kids and kids who lives up to see that they have choices that we feel about like online alternatives I think it's pretty good I think the options that we got now have been plentiful and taught by industry professionals at their very own home so the convenience is there the the affordability is there and it's the time is right for this type of education I'll bet you man how do you feel so I I'm

about half in half right like I definitely know that I paid a whole lot of money to get this bachelor's degree in video game art and design and I know that I did a whole lot of work getting myself good at level design and you know building on my portfolio my network but I can't say that I was without opportunity that I wouldn't have had if I didn't go to AI like meeting some of the Career Service advisors who've been so adamant and trying to help me get placed when I first started and being so close and proximity to all these video game developers now granted I could have done that just by moving to California but I feel like having the safety net of the school allowed me to meet like-minded individuals in person like build actual real relationships with potential future video game developers and just kind of go through like a shitty struggle with people who were going through a shitty struggle at the same time you know like it's one thing to see a bunch of names on a website who are like students with you versus like

hey like this is Adam this is David this is mark we are in this concept art class together suffering all staying up till 2:00 a.m. trying to get this homework done so I'm on the fence like I think having an in-person education especially in the video game industry is awesome the way that it's currently being done terrible yeah I look at it like that I feel like the for-profit most of the emphasis is on the profit you know yeah and that's that's what's hurting right now that's why 1580 eyes won't be gonna shut down I think because they get sued for some I mean I don't really know the details on it but I just know that like 15 a eyes are shutting down they're getting sued by the government for taking like government grants or you know low-income student loan money or low-income qualifying student loan money knowing that these kids weren't gonna graduate work on it yeah it's pretty much I think you know they dictated load balance

secure these loans because his loans will be paid your Sallie Mae no Naviance and those students can't pay it back like yep one of the complaints was you had 500 graduating photographers at Philadelphia's Art Institute yep where are 500 photographers gonna tell in Philadelphia doesn't match up I think looking back and actually going through the industry and the educational system I'm starting to similarities that's how it's run like beginning to end he's being run by people who don't really enjoy the game history as far as development goes there more than English they're treating it more like a regular business where where it's not the passion it's my pocket so I mean of course there's benefits and cons to both of em you know running it other business making money off of it but I think I think we're at a time where it's opening

up to different a different way of doing it and still being able to be profitable yeah that's true I agree I'm looking forward to what education is going to be let's say 7 to 10 years from now I think there's a big paradigm shift especially in the creative space right I think there's a big paradigm shift in people going to actual college for a game design for a graphic arts for photography for these sorts of things - now this abundance of just quality solid online training materials and even online college courses you know that are becoming more accessible less about paying 130,000 dollars and more about just learning your trade like one of the things I complained about it going to a college was I didn't really touch game design until I was already a year and a half through the program I had used half of my student loan money and room and board money before I even get to the

classes for what I thought I wanted to do so could you imagine what would happen if I didn't go all the way through if I was like oh this is it for me I'm still on the hook for 45 plus thousand dollars yeah for class that you never really made your dancing and I think that's the change or that's the difference like the accessibility is different now and exposure of what each job in the industry is becoming more and more apparent with new students like they no plan of what each job entails and so now you can just pick and choose what kind of classes you want and that's the exciting part now you if you want to be a designer day one you don't have to draw rig oh it's all your money on that and you just go ahead and do it's on one on one as a game designer I can't tell you how many times I needed to animate I needed to draw life models yeah needed to model buildings Oh actually I can only one time out of all my jobs yeah I only ever had to model one time and that was at a startup studio and I only

needed to make one asset right I made a building yeah today yeah I would that's five thousand dollars of education I would have much rather have taken like seven to eight game design classes and just those classes and paid for just those classes to be honest to the point really at the point I mean with the school systems are set up this way right to fill up a three year program to get that degree that really doesn't mean anything so I think it actually is the back Larry requirements that are incentivizing the schools to create such bloated coursework I'll say yeah yeah well I mean let's say well let's talk about your origin story I haven't you you didn't really begin from high school as a looking game thing like what

happened no man I uh my long-term joke my long-running joke is at five years old I knew I was gonna be a doctor I had my fisher-price doctor said the little stethoscope with plastic band-aids that were like bracelets I had everything it was gonna be a doctor my sixth birthday my mom came home with a Nintendo and just messed up all those plans just messed it all up I've been a big gamer my entire life I've loved video games and I spent a lot of time by myself playing video games you know that was my first babysitter and first time I got a television I was so happy like my own TV to play my own games that I'll have to worry about interrupting other people shows what I wanted to play games and that carried on throughout my whole life but I also had a passion for business you know I said wasn't gonna be games or wasn't gonna be business which one am I gonna go into and I decided both I want to go into the business of games but I won't go into the game industry to learn about the game industry you know so yeah I went to Penn State for two years as a business

major before I realized that oh man they're kind of training me to be you know like a fortune 500 employee like I'm the second regional vice manager of northbound logistics you know like I have nine people that work under me I have a clipboard and I have a Palm Pilot that I use every day for no reason yep you know like I I didn't want that life and so that's when I decided to go to art school to make video games and dropped out of Penn State second year through and I went to the Art Institute of Orange County and that was probably one of the best decisions I've made in my life regardless of the expense the people that I met the relationships that I've formed the networks that I was able to build and also be a part of the experiences that I got just moving to California ahead of time as a student learning the area kind of getting set up and established while I was still under that you know safety net of a learning environment right where you have your rent paid you have all your classes to go to you have a very kind of structured simple life so long as you have the

discipline and then once that was done and I got a job it's like oh cool I get to move to Irvine or oh cool I get to move to Los Angeles like areas that I already knew that was already familiar with because I moved out to California but yeah that was it for me man I haven't looked back ever since once I graduated from school it was just trailblazing you know as a designer good stuff well yeah I think we have really cool stories but like the people listening now right like we're putting this podcast together because we aim to demystify what it's like to be in the industry kind of what kind of things do you think a one podcast about getting into the game industry staying in navigating and you know the who's who the game in sheet everything that we're gonna bring to the table can you think of something just all the time we had this is a challenge can you think of something off the top of your head that was like day one Golden Nugget noticed our knowledge like you can go back to Brandon Pham graduating this day like yeah you just got your diploma what would you say to

him first don't do it that's pretty much it don't do it so my first game job was was my real first job of anything like I worked at Christmas for a month while I went to college and then I pretty much spent the whole college working with school library so it's not really a job so my first real job is when I went over to to Cameron work my boss ACTU and I mean things were true like the things that are instructors or people in the industry was saying was true like there was news about sailors food is a very loose environment you know they get free games every week you know and buy the boxes and and it was cool it was fun it was exciting the first month though you know while I was giving the tour all I heard was this creep you're pretty clearly women's tank love eating I'm gonna stay late a lot just to prove that my time here is worth

with their time spent on me was worth it so I worked really hard and stayed late nights and so I would just dig through the fridge you know just looking for stuff and how I open it up it was like oh right and my favorite like stacked high dinner the prison dinner this is tabes providing president over you so high eight present dinner it's pretty much every day for the first month until like the last week I started to notice the amendments getting pretty late like they need to start refilling these throws that did it and then as I close the door there was a note on the fridge that says whoever's taking my dinner stop it's like pretty cuts out of net I was like oh [ __ ] I've been dating someone you know obviously eating someone's dinner and you know with that I was very embarrassed I looked around to make sure no one's see

that saw me you know and I looked at the the box I already took out and I'm you know it's like kind of like a send-off I finished that one I was not putting it back in I already opened up the wrapper yeah you already you know if you're on thin ice you may as well dance that's the only that's I got away with it that's more other story no you didn't because you just snitched on yourself yeah but I'm sure that guy doesn't know he I'm talking about yes you continuing to snitch on yourself but that's the first thing I remembered when I started the new job I bet defined how noobish I was how exciting it was a funny experience was and I created the whole process just moving to a new place starting your new life after college and things coming true I mean it was very fortunate that I

found a job after graduating I was thankful to work on such a cool game afterwards ooh and what's the first thing that you think that wanting to go after bragging apology yeah if I could go back to me graduating diploma day one the first thing I would tell myself is to save money hands down hands down that'll be the first thing I would tell myself it scared that's true like oh yeah yeah no I people can't see my hands but yes pretend you can see my hands so when I was working at my first job I was making salary and I was making this much and I'm like oh this is great like yeah I'm paid salary I never had a salary job before right like no matter what I do I get the same check like it's awesome so I was making this much and I was spending less than that let's just say I was spending this much so the distance in between my two hands I was like yes this is saving I'm saving money because I'm not spending everything that is not

saving money that's just not spending everything yeah and so when my project got cancelled at that studio and they laid off like 26 people that's when that little bit of savings that I was making every month became my only source of you know money that was my my month that was it that's all I had was that little bit of savings obviously you burn through that in unemployment and then you use credit cards so like oh well I'm putting food on my credit card and putting gas on my credit card and you rack up your credit card bills and then sooner or later you realize that you're about to be homeless cuz you have no income and a lot of bills you know see ya yep I think everyone has a layoff story and that's this how the industry is it's not right but it's it's a it's just part of the norm which is a terrible thing to think about that's one of the reasons why I'm so glad that there are starting to be action Apple you know created their

phone but they know they don't want anything to do with the gamers do the same thing in the game industry but they want nothing to destroy well what do you say they want nothing to do with the game industry they're making a lot of things for a game of Ellen like I'm starting to the metal and Swift enough well Swift is perhaps but I think metal ass they're after area Steve Steve Jobs left yeah he was pretty adamant like he was a bit you didn't like games he didn't want to see the this is a work of art being represented and associated with little toys but like and what's the biggest moneymaker yeah they're starting to realize that so I'm glad that that opened the doors I mean valve making steam is becoming like the PC meter and now Apple being a Pleader it's creating opportunities for you yeah well we need to see more of that we need to see more safe havens for industry

talent you know cause like one of the things I will say about the game industry and I know that you can vouch for this is like it's No Country for Old Men like if you don't make it as a designer to like creative director right like you're not gonna be some seven-year-old 60 year old 59 60 60 five-year-old designer right like yeah you know I just may be but like I have a hard time seeing you know the relevance and it's not I'm not attacking the age group I'm just saying this is an observation yeah out of all the companies I've worked for I have not seen designers past a certain age I'll just say that I thought they just happens yeah exactly like they just they take them out back in the a lot of the retirement let's touch on that really like the burnout rate is it's now no secret like game industry turns out a lot of developers well it's crunches ornaments like you

know you know salary is reasonable but at some point it just stops growing after its amount of years of experience I mean that's something I would love to talk to well you got how do you feel you know I haven't met anyone past fifty like in any discipline like the oldest I've met is around fifty and I don't think that will last any longer I mean but some young talents are coming in they're gonna be coming cheaper yes that's the problem this smells waiting for an opportunity to talk about when you brought up salary is the idea that and it happens in corporate America just like it happens in the game industry now as you're working for our company and as you get older you know you get better you have more talented you're refined you're faster so you're more valuable and companies usually give like one to three percent raise per year let's just say for the sake of math and you've been

in the industry now for 25 years right but but you're not graduating out of designer you're still just like a senior designer right and then here comes some like nineteen year old who started as a junior 22 now he's a regular designer 27 now he's a senior designer just like you his three percents add up to a lot less money than your at three percent alright and there you go there's a job gone it's so it's a tough thing to figure out I mean like I'm not saying I think the game industry is reaching a point where every pretty much every triple-a company is facing the same problem we're late they are looking out between the blinds and they're seeing that there's a lot of seniors in their office right now and there's zero growth like there's nowhere for them to go and just like anybody

who's worked in the industry for a long time you expect growth right if you're not growing that you're dying well so Brennan you got to keep in mind now there's various levels of senior sure sure I think about three years in to senior you'll have that speech with your manager you're just like hey I'm looking for growth what do you got well we can start looking at various degrees of seniority I was like Oh does my salutation know but you know it's more than that what can you do that you can we put more into but not get paid as much that's pretty much the speech you will get so what can you do for us without us paying you more what you should ask yourself it becomes so introspective where it comes borderline or bullshitting on both sides understand what's going on here's another situation that's kind of similar to that the old

lead quits so the assistant lead gets turned into the lead but his salary doesn't get converted to the lead salary right I'm like hey this manager quit so let's let's hire this guy who's like the closest to being the next manager but we're just gonna give him a raise and all the old guys responsibilities but we're not gonna give him the old guys salary nope yeah devaluing the position but the same time doing a lot of work it's a good trick that's a good trick oh when you see that one coming it's just like oh here it is right pays to and this is why they all the anyone that works Pat's I would say I think after maybe three years being an industry you pretty much hit a stride where you're coming in doing and

expecting to do the same type of stuff like yeah you know maybe at the beginning the project there'd be some creativity going on you're putting stuff out but once you nail that procedure you're pretty much expected with you it over and over over again because you're just pumping out assets mucking out levels you punking out animation whatever it is and so that gets pretty boring I mean the burnout rate becomes very apparent it starts right there like if you don't see any growth in your position your salary you're told to crunch more you're you're spending less time you're starting to have family right as you progress through your 20s and 30 and you're starting to face a problem where your salary isn't growing but members of your family is and you're just looking at it's like how long can I really do this I can't lose pictured myself at a

company or a triple-a company and be able to say 65 like the the like your talks with your managers becomes more and more more more interesting in a way where they're running out of things to ask you like you know what's your five-year plan it's a popular one and that's gonna suddenly turn to your plan because most companies don't last past two years on average now it's xxx duty especially are closing in left and right as development cost goes up so that's that's just a problem that's gonna explode upon itself yeah man I honestly I hate to say this but I hope that the Xbox one and the ps4 are the last generation of home console men personally yep because the way we're going you can't up the good system and expect

the same amount of money in off more people you're just putting more risk onto the project you're you can't the system is getting better and better more powerful stronger requires brilliance that requires Talent it requires effort in order to make the top-level quality on that system so therefore Studios have to hire more people and you have to train more people and you have to get bigger everything and bigger and better everything and if your game does not sell there goes your whole entire studio you know it's it's a sad picture but it's happening so often like what I think about the jump that we made from PlayStation 2 PlayStation 3 the graphics fidelity just shot up and I was like oh this is great look how cool everything is all man but the team sizes also grew exponentially as well you know you had a 40 person team turned into a hundred person team and then ps3 goes to ps4 and you have a hundred person team turn into a 300 person team I'm talking like big

games like like advanced warfare like we're talking that caught the first Call of Duty game did you see the team size being 300 something people not including outsourcing and all the other like freaking overseas stuff translation and all the companies that they work with like I bet you like almost 500 names probably roll across a credit screen from a big big triple a game like of all levels of titles and job responsibilities and go back to PlayStation 2 you don't see 500 you see 60 amazing you know and look at that like 60 people made a colleague eat a game and they might have probably sold like the same amount like 30 million copies around 50 or 60 same same price and then you blow it up to nowadays 200-250 cost just the same so what what happens right well the bonuses are smaller right things like that are not

going to be equal and you know with the team growing in that size you're you're more segmented into staying within your lane so your job becomes more and more repetitive because we have more and more people because more and more people means that job the game will shift faster and so you're the individual is just going to be stuck doing the same thing there's no room for growth because it's it's cramped it's a cramped space to spin this but keep your head down and finished again what's you're complaining about it's I you brought it you bring up a good point I hate magic management math yeah I think you know exactly what I'm talking about for the audience let me explain magic management math is for example when you ask somebody hey are you a chef and he says yes and you ask how long does it take you to cook a pancake and he says it takes me exactly 4 minutes and 30 seconds to cook a pancake and then you use magic

management math and you say hmm so that means if I have two chefs it's gonna take 2 minutes and 20 seconds to cook a pancake I have it's a great problem it doesn't work like that you know so ever works like never and I'm not I'm not saying that that's what producers do I'm just using that as an illustration as to why you can't just blow up the expectation and not think that the team size needs to grow with those expectations well that and you the more bodies you throw into it the more you devalue that individual the first thing that was seen here it doesn't matter as Mark it's just that senior equals to juniors that I stood higher and so you know if you put emphasis on manpower then the actual guys that's been in the industry that has value unvalued yes and I would oh it would be a sad day if somebody ever thought that they could

look at an Excel spreadsheet and determined talent and value just based on a number you know like oh well this person is quote unquote senior but these two juniors can replace the senior you know why someone is senior because they have experience they have been through things that the juniors have not so granted the juniors may be able to do models or they may be able to make designs or things like that but when it comes down to crunch times when it comes down to bottom of the ninth that people need to dig deep right people need to be extraordinarily creative people need to be extraordinarily efficient or extraordinarily effective who's gonna be the one that shows up for you right I mean I would put my bets on the person with the experience like hey I've been through shitty projects before I know how to get through such as such versus a junior may say holy crap this is all brand new to me I just want to model I don't know how to deal with these you know intercompany politics or any of the situations that you may deal with in a workplace I don't know well I mean I got to play the devil

death it I completely agree with you but like you're looking at the other side of the coin the with the man they're looking at a problem where hey I got a roomful of seniors that cost a lot of money don't swim around sure and now in the other room I have a bunch of juniors who are willing to put the extra hour if you are willing to be paid lower just to prove themselves so if I keep one senior and then manage ten juniors and my problem is solved yeah this there's a lot of companies that think that way and to each his own I guess is the best way to answer this one but since we're doing this podcast talking about the industry we do have to talk about both sides yep yep I mean of course you know the value of experience the value of being able to problem-solve based on experience I I'm just so thankful but there are so many choices now that seniors don't feel trapped like if they really want to

drive and make something and make a difference you know they'll have better luck in the smaller team will they be able to make things that they want without 10,000 people I want to compare let's say five art directories they're managing what you're doing ridiculous I think I remember a time like that where I had four leads for one thing that had to do and actually it okay / from all four leaves for one thing means that they don't have a single lead yeah pretty much if you have four our leads you don't have an art lead I use have extra body taking up oxygen for art leads means to me whoever is on top of managing those art leaves didn't have the gusto to just make the decision say you have the power anyone elses below you it's it's family what's that word where you give your family a job it's a

legal term where when you you're not supposed to give it favor ISM yeah well whatever that is I mean like you reach a certain point you've got a hate and love them at the same time you're facing real problem at you like this is not against any good leads out there which there are very good at least there's at least three men yeah at least three what I mean is like there's more badly significance in mine just based on my own experience do you really what you really believe that there's more badly than good leads all industry oh yeah of course something like that happen I don't know maybe because all this [ __ ] you got to learn how to sling something to keep its receive song like I think at a certain point you gotta have to start lying to

yourself so management never want to solve the problems that we are talking about like it's a clear problem but they have meetings the meetings so that they don't solve it right away but they can somehow figure out a way to make it look like they're solving the problem and you I'm sure the audience out there at seed a walker or walking by right now a meeting and you can just see gestures being made into the thing but six months later the same problem our silver now I feel that yeah and it really just comes down to they don't want to solve the issues within the studio like the issues that there's no reason why which I mean there are but too many people are taking breaks throughout the day who usually walks in twos and when we've been

through this we were twice right yeah I know exactly what you're talking about yeah pretty much any time we have a team meeting these groups of twos and threes to start leaving and having these walks around the block doesn't even matter where you walk you just keep on walking sometimes he does like walk around but who the longest path just because because I didn't finish what I was going to say and you're here to listen to what I'm going to say so that's about two more blocks of conversations but it's just one of those things that it's understood among our colleagues but management know it's kind of like in their own world sometimes like you know like they don't want to believe that they're bad guys and this is the thing I learned about that guys and I'm not saying they're done burnin believe he's ready I'm just saying well you know the bad guys in quotations of a student there were no human subs as the

villain I will addressing just leads in like bad leads one of the things that I can say is management is actually a skill like being a good leader versus a loss there's a difference between a leader and a boss right I'll definitely yeah and not what was known I'm sure but I mean like those words may get used interchangeably but they are not synonyms yes there's vast differences between leader and boss and in my mind management takes a skill like certain people just don't really have great management skills but you know what they were they were very very good artists or very good designers who just so happened to be at the top of the totem pole when the new lead needed to get picked well we're in an industry full of geeks and nerds right I'm a geek you're everyone can relate to this I mean we really like niches within society and so while we're going to art school while we're doing

this we kind of stay within our niche we don't really travel outside the classroom or outside of the workplace too much I mean of course there's a lot of us that have social lives and all these things but management skills is not a class that we've ever you know we ever use always outside skills and so I can understand why we have bad leads because you're certainly asked to leave a team to manage the group of people that used to work with and you don't wanna and you have all our artists have some kind of insecurities right within us and so when we're handed power most of time we abused it because we don't know how to handle it you want to drop your nuts on the table exactly drop it on all tables so I get it I don't agree with it but I get it I totally understand why well let me ask

you this you said most leaves are bad so that leads me to believe that you had some good leads of course lately so anyone listening on the podcast some maybe leads or some maybe people who are just disgruntled because they have bad leads what are the things that you see that have stood out as wow this person is a good leave like where did they you know go the extra mile or where did they I guess make themselves known as being a good lead I think a good lead is not just unique to begin he this goes across all types of disciplines all types of industries and it's pretty much a lead it's not particularly a person that is leading it's a comedy it's a comedy needs for the person he's managing mmm that to me is like the greatest quality of illegal where he just instead of like tongue people do of course he has to have that ability but it's more about listen it's like listening what does my

team need what does my what what concerns do they have how can I fix it how do I make your job easier so that maybe this come in and do your stuff without worrying about meeting lies mmm and secondly you know even if you don't have that brisk if your your this guy where I can drop it at a moment's notice and he can just shove me off the chair and do my work on top of what ever responsibilities happy for that to me is a really great like being able to perform when when it's necessary being able to pick up when your team cannot deliver and that's that's huge those two things to me it stands out in my past experience of what a great leader is how about you how do you feel so one of the things that I've seen are that I look for in a lead or in any sort of management position is strength yeah but

also not necessarily mercy but just and understanding and acknowledgement of how and whence you strength all right so like if someone is creating a problem in a workplace I don't want them to necessarily be confrontational about it but I want them to be able to identify like wow you know what this person is creating conflicts I need to go and handle that because it's bringing my team productivity down right let's see yeah I'm just gonna say that like and that characteristic is hard to find in a lot of people as well because a lot of people don't want to deal with conflicts or they don't want to deal with hey look you and you let's work this [ __ ] out well you know to me like hey come over here let's look you're coming in past 10 o'clock every day everyone else is here working we can't like there's hard conversations that need to be had and I don't like leads that can't just tell it like it is yeah like it's so important to look another adult in the face and just tell them the truth sometimes yeah you know

like that's a skill that apparently a lot of people don't have it's too scared to be confrontational but it's really like if you're expected uni the hard stuff we're expected we may think that is a mountain you can't keep it's disappointing I got my job we are 46 minutes in 17 seconds into the game to vet the game them Unchained podcast episode number one we are going off the top having a great time once again this is your host Larry Charles and Brandon man you're hella late listless I lost changed off let's take a quick break we're gonna run a commercial we will come right back and close out the podcast just want to thank everybody for watching we will be right back after this quick commercial break from our sponsor

Havener would you like to learn about making video games then you definitely need to check out game school online.com it's the number one place to learn about video game development we've got talented instructors who are currently industry professionals who are teaching classes and making tutorials to help you become a video game developer to date [Music] okay welcome back to the game dev Unchained podcast once again this is your host Larry Charles and Brandon BAM boom much better that time and we're gonna bring it home with one last quick topic I think I would like to end it with how do you make friends in the game industry from Cuba how do you so like that's a terrible question you haven't found what I'm trying to say is what I'm trying to say is there's new people watching this podcast who are probably going to be going into the game industry

for the first time right yeah you're gonna be working with multiple types of personalities now whether or not you like these individuals you still have to work with them so the question that I failed miserably at trying to ask is how is it that you can get to work with different types of people people that you may like people that you may not like and still get things done still work as a team I what's your take over I will drop on my own experience but I've seen it done this way as soon as you start a new job it's the things that you do outside of the job that actually creates better friendships in my opinion just sitting clear yeah I'll ask about techniques and stuff but it's designed to go out on lunch where you go and play basketball you ask to hang out after work things like that you want just normal things without pushing and making

it natural has been effective just don't try too hard don't you neared because that can go a long way and it will follow as far as trying to leave a company and then bill I mean between both of us like we have stories of people like legends that we heard that could be its own podcast we should probably do that just like yeah we can do a whole podcast of stories of people that we've heard and and we met like I would be five years hearing about a story and I finally would meet them just because how small the industry was you finally would work with someone like that it's just funny I'm still waiting to meet your buddy sandwich his name has been changed to protect the innocent by the way I'll take a stab at my own question too so when I think about

working in the game industry there are people you will like and they'll be easy to work with but sometimes they may be too easy to work with you may find yourself too excited to talk to an individual or to share stories and and fun and be around certain people where you could let your work slip right the trick is don't do that fine time like you said outside of work to develop those encouraging relationships so like yourself and I write like we're the best of friends and I was in your wedding and you'll be in mine right like it's a we're a dynamic duo I can't think of a time where either one of us has ever over indulged in the friendship while at work you know what I mean as easy as we could have just spent all day talking and laughing and stuff we always make sure that we had maybe a quick little 30 second 1 minute 2 minute talks during the work day take breaks when necessary but we got our stuff done that's the easy part the hard part is when you work with or near someone that you actually don't like right like I think we've

observed this for from both perspectives I think I've seen people come up to you and talk to you for like an hour this is laughs the people you don't like yeah thanks for just in there laughing in my misery I appreciate that oh talking about this sometime so I will just say my tactic for handling people I don't like is I have faith in human resources and protocol so in the event that somebody treats me wrong or that somebody oversteps a boundary I know that I don't necessarily have to go into explicit detail to handle the situation myself right like if I'm ever wronged I can bring that grievance up to the proper channels know that I've voiced my opinion and then they can handle it behind the scenes right like you can't always just get in people's face and tell them look you bother me this and that this and that right because some people can't handle that

type of thing some people would then look at you as the aggressor you know especially and I'll just say it I'm a big african-american individual I have to I hate that it's this way but I have to be very careful how I communicate with people because it's so easy for people to paint a negative picture of me oh it's very easy it's very easy for them to just say Larry did this and that and the story is believed sometimes I did it for fun and they believe me it's crazy so yes I actually if I know that I'm working with somebody who I don't get along with very well I know that there are systems in place that will handle grievances if they occur but - I also respect the fact that this person is considered a professional right so even if I can't stand him and he can't stand me if we have a deadline I hope that I can trust in his own ability to want to survive that he's going to do his job yeah and if he does not or if she does

not then if it gets to a point where like the whole team is being brought down like someone's not pulling their weight so therefore the whole team is losing or at least a noticeable amount of my team is losing then I bring it up to the lead like hey I don't know if you're paying attention but so-and-so is not really working to the best of their ability and then you don't stab them though you say maybe we should talk to them and see what's going on let's try to help the guy like always come from that angle first because you don't want to have yourself look like you're out to get people right you're expressing it as concern for the team and the individual that you're talking about even if you don't like them you still want the game six right the company still thought enough of that person to hire them so therefore at least give them the benefit of the doubt on the first time like hey let's see if there's something we can do to help we can do to help those are both positive things in a negative situation versus F that guy he's not working I'm gonna go tattle on him in my next

meeting and they're sitting there writing notes about you being aggressive or being you know not a team player or you know I would add to that I totally agree keep close attention to this psychos do the exact opposite you want if he--if crazy Lenny asked you out to lunch you go out to lunch you're gonna make sure that you get it cool all right and you know types that we're talking about at every word company there's gonna be a weirdo one that you don't know what's gonna go on if you say something bad if something goes off you want to make sure you're cool because this is a real thing all right that's my warning okay okay I gotta ask man how many crazy Lenny's have you worked with cuz you have like a whole strategy like all planned out crazy Lenny doesn't know that he's crazy and that's I gotta start with that and every company I've been that I've always been able to spot the crazy ones or you

know I'm just making sure that I'm good I'm safe like I would give him an extra high in the morning I would give them an extra compliment when it's unnecessary just making sure that crazy Lenny's happened so just be careful out there like this for you observant that's really what it is and our industry is it very we like working the dark you like being the computer the the more time that you spend behind the community better so the exceptionally really good ones are usually antisocial in a way where you just gotta be careful you just gotta be careful once a so if Larry's approach is just treat everyone nicely don't go confrontational right away and you know see other opposite other ways to deal with the situation it's always the safest bet and the other thing is I can't go confrontational right away because I lose even if I'm the victim what if I'm the victim yeah I saw okay

this isn't even video game related today but I saw something that turned my stomach so I was on you I was on Facebook at work on my second monitor not the work monitor the second bottom and there was a video posted up two guys arguing one looked like a big heavyset kind of like maybe like Arab guy or like I don't know where this from evening that kind of Persian or something and then like DJ Khaled like DJ he looks like DJ Khaled yeah and then the guy who's arguing with is a black guy right yeah yeah then they start fighting like they're really fighting like it's like a full-on like really trying to hurt each other fight and it goes on for about two minutes of fighting and these guys suck at fighting they're like they're just you know like throwing hands all over the place then the police show up to the video right I already know they grabbed the black dude and throw him to the ground court you gotta get it cut yes that he's on the ground minimum like neutralizing [ __ ] and then they kindly walk over to the

Arab guy and they're like asking him questions and making sure he's okay then they find out that he was involved in the fight and it was like me both of them then they're like oh shoot we look bad sorry sir can you please turn around so we can put some handcuffs on you so the dude turns himself around and they nicely put the handcuffs on no I was so sick when I saw that I was so sick and it's just like it's just old bad it just had happened and it's like oh man so I'm not saying that the game industry is racist not in any way I'm very fortunate to be african-american into business successful as I have and if I face racism we're not I'm not saying that the game industry is or is not racist I just want to say Larry's just you entering the industry we're up 2% up like want to thank you that's just really corny you're gonna let you eat a clutch it's

not a lot is starting to and I'm glad I can't really say if they're minorities than you want hell no are you in the game of the street man please you guys started the game initiative tell you about the grand you know the grandfather's of the game industry okay oh gee all right guys we had a great time entertaining you for this hour hopefully you learned a thing or two and even more importantly hopefully you're gonna stick around you're gonna get episodes regularly from us we want to appreciate you we appreciate you for sticking around and I'm gonna sign out before I make any more rambled words Brandon take it away tell the good folks what they want I'm glad you guys listen look forward to more episodes we're gonna talk to you in industry veterans about the conditions into either independent or you know their journey going through the game which we experience instant we're really here to

learn about what we can do to fix the problem so we're good until next time guys make sure you like comment and subscribe wherever you can however you can please show support to the podcast it goes a long way we promise you Oh peace [Music]