Roundtable News | Gen Z Impact on the Workplace | 329

foreign [Music] podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon Pham and with me a special guest Rick Graham how you doing Ray what's happened I was cracking I'm here uh this is a special episode once a month or a little longer than a month since I've spoken to you and uh it's to catch up on the latest game development news that is relatable to game developers out there these are opinions of Our Own uh please try not to get ray fired or me canceled uh so let's go ahead and get

into it man all right but uh you know the good folks out there haven't heard from you for a while what is up in San Francisco are you guys still alive over there yeah man we're still here I'm still you know um RTO our kill is a big topic these days a lot of people getting pulled back to the office and it's a huge topic and I know it's one we've talked about numerous times and um I'll definitely say the trends that I'm seeing a lot of what you've been saying has been pretty pretty accurate actually right before you repeat that yeah all right can you just repeat I didn't hear you too well last five minutes you're at everything very well I was saying switch part I'm seeing the trends sure okay well like I I definitely am hearing like and I you know you already know I vehemently disagree with this right I just couldn't

put it out there but I I'm hearing from Executives because I think everybody does talks the same [ __ ] and then they just repeat it right yeah and they're like oh yeah I should do that too right you know when it comes to remote employees yeah saying yeah your career is severely limited as a remote employee and and like stuff that like you really does not need to be true is just being reiterated right um now that kovid is is kind of something that people are put in there in their rear view mirror and not really worried about being in person they're like oh I'd much rather be in person with you and all managers should be managing people local to them then all of this right and uh and you know I manage a team of a lot of people yeah and uh and only two of them are in my city right so I manage a very remote globally distributed team and uh a lot of all of that stuff starts falling apart when you

are looking for people that are talented have skills and you are fighting against stiff competition right you have to be able to hire globally and so things like RTO and other things like that do impact that so you're saying like the the I still feel like your company is exceptional to the world you guys have always been remote first grabbing the most talented people there was a general setup kind of put in the like a strong Foundation to thrive for you guys uh being uh you know the an engine business um I think the original uh folks we're in Europe right and it kind of globalized after that and so it was part of the company ethos to kind of have like let's get the most talented

people and then let's make it work a lot of what we're seeing now is like companies that weren't set up like that they never had very much the opposite of strongly opposed right and then not putting that like strongly opposed to remote where like no way in hell like basically two months before the pandemic happened and you know I.T everybody managers middle managers just never just laughed in your face even if you suggested that and it was like career suicide you know you guys can I do this remote it's like are you freaking kidding me you get laughed out of the room what a joke and then for them to kind of act fast like hey you know for us to remain in business and we have to do something uh so I think a lot of those companies are just reverting back to their original thinking um and and you know that favoritism or in office

and the unwillingness to to make remote work uh we're just seeing the effects of that uh at least in the game industry kind of spread everywhere and everybody's like well we don't have to do this anymore all right so the good thing is the infrastructure is there and there are exceptions exceptional people that they're allowing right yeah well I also also do we say it's like it's reverting back um you said something else like that they're not allowing it anymore right yeah I think I think it's just like a lot of short-sightedness really you know um where people are not willing to try something new right uh and and even in some cases they they think it's it's it oh yeah

that's the other part they're they're all willing to try something new um and they want to revert back to the norm because they also because of the way the economy set up currently yeah yeah and the jobs that are out there is is kind of less and people get laid off left and right yeah they feel yeah yeah we could totally do this down now it's a safe time to do this because even if people bounce and quit yeah uh they there won't be much options out there for them they might have to just suck it up and stay right yeah the balance of power definitely is coming back to the employer is it's uh buyer's market again and so there's a lot of Leverage now uh that employers are are having uh to not deal with the but you know the [ __ ] the [ __ ] that's what I'm saying dude I was like where where are you on a farm no you gotta come over here you gotta go you gotta live next to us

two days at home two days but three days you gotta come back in the office uh but you know as I've said before the hybrid thing is just a Gateway back to full time in the office it's it's a Gateway it's a gateway drug right it's a game it's a it's the transition yeah exactly people are crawling back near the vicinity of these Mecca cities right yeah uh even San Francisco being [Music] uh a cesspool whatever you want to call it a crime and and drugs uh you know the AI uh trend is uh is kind of helping the city gain back a lot of the yeah yeah uh employers again it's it's yeah I think it's just the same thing though it's just um RTO and with everybody coming back it's just

a temporary thing you know um although these days when I go downtown San Francisco it's very it's very chill but it's it's like not a whole lot of people it's very relaxed like everybody talks about Cesspool homeless drugs all this kind of stuff right but in the areas that were bad when I was going down there before pandemic yeah like it's it's like almost a ghost town in a lot of those areas so um but of course Public Super still there your car will still get I'm sure the first episode of The Walking Dead was uh described in that same exact way it was quiet but my car was broken yeah my car is was broken into San Francisco years years ago right um so it's like to me it's like this is not a new occurrence right you you lease for your car it gonna get took yeah right so um but anyway but um yeah like it's it's a lot Chiller now than it was before pandemic even now right

um but then yeah now with RTO happening at many different companies across right you'll probably see more and more people coming back yeah yeah it's definitely uh for good reason I think it needs to to return that way I mean the city is clamoring for people I I feel like San Francisco is actually trying to make an effort of finally caving in saying yeah this is a problem finally you know uh it's the first step to to fixing things to admit that there's a problem I mean I mean the the problems that plague the city are big aren't like oh the police aren't doing their jobs it's yeah it's lack of social services lack of Education lack of proper infrastructure to help people and then therefore you get what you get right when you don't give two shits um that's what you end up with yeah Wow have fun over there

well you know we see the people reverting back uh the pendulum have completely shifted you know uh I'm even seeing things on LinkedIn the very much same way that people are are calling back into the city to work in person people who kind of went on this like uh uh uh rage quitting you know at the high epidemic to pursue like uh New Opportunities right uh basically spending Seven Ten Years at blizzard and then suddenly quitting during the height of like the unknown to join as said startup company with high prospects I'm starting to see them going back to like blizzard going back to Riot I'm seeing what that's maybe maybe if it's a company that got bought by embracer group or something uh but but most of the folks I know that are at like that started these little Indie remote first

companies so they're still there there's so many of the games yeah because they haven't hit a Mr Milestone yet all right they're five six months like oh crap this ain't working out you know game companies are hard coming up with no ideas are hard who knew yeah who knew right so I think people who weren't kind of built because there was a lot of falsehoods uh kind of kind of created in my opinion right there's this idea is like oh I can leave a super cushy a long 10-year type of job like blizzard and Riot et cetera et cetera right and go to the startup that gives me quote unquote the same things but like zero risk right uh I don't think anybody's going to start with zero risk I know I know but I don't think anybody would say that no no no no this one that's what I'm saying all they saw was the benefits

of a startup having a piece of something I can call my own without having sacrifice you know the benefits the salary that I was enjoying at this like multiple within our company but that's always that's always a trade-off right like if you go to go out and do something or your own that is the trade-off that you're you're gonna probably get paid less but you're hoping for a higher reward on the back end right like everybody like everybody that goes to that situation kind of takes a risk or I just want I just want the freedom the creative freedom to make something good that was the normal way what I'm saying is what people did during the high epidemic yeah because money was seemed to be like growing on trees right well that's the people started that's people starting the companies who are doing right right right but like the people who left their cushy job still kept their High salaries in a lot of these cases that I'm hearing they didn't give up the risks that most you know people would have before the pandemic oh yeah now they're finding out how hard it is and seeing like the

Troubles of you know how a new startup always encounter right the political side of things now like cash is running short everyone's pointing fingers you know so I'm starting to see like that group going reverting back and begging for their old jobs back kind of like buyers regret kind of thing buyers remorse yeah I'm interested to see how many people you've seen do that because I've not seen that a lot personally I I am I am I am the soothsayer okay what I say comes true six months later right when you're sitting and you're sitting around browsing your LinkedIn it's like oh [ __ ] the Brandon was off to something again I'm not chilling I'm not chilling on LinkedIn like that but okay amen hey Zuckerberg is falling me look at him his company is going back to profitable quarters again as soon as you started saying this medicine is dumb let me fire some people

and now he's like ready to fight Elon that's how much free time he has all you had to do is say AI Fire and Fire a bunch of people like every other tech company a i a i a i tap buyer but fire a bunch of people and oh cool he shed some unnecessary headcounts you know all those kind of influencers talking about how how great it is to go to like cafeteria's cafeteria all day I finally you know I mean he made the right call but I I'm starting to see at least something that we've been talking over the years why these tech companies right have just over inflated their employees you know with amenities right and no actually work I've done and look what happened dude they're like hey no more spa day Wednesdays you know no more sleeping pod Tuesdays you know how about get some

work done uh and it's been across the board like Google do you know one way to get employees to be more productive and do more work you know like with studies show how individual employees are more productive what they say they say that they're more productive at home personally on their own yeah yeah right yeah yeah if if you're doing solitary work you're more productive at home so if you want people to not be doing the the spas and the massage chairs and eating and playing pool and all the other nonsense the Mad distractions at the campus brings you yeah you should you should have them at home yeah this is what I say to that man I've been around that I think productive people were always pretty productive or more productive right if you put in the situation and people who are unproductive will cheat the system even more

just just just put to your head just imagine somebody who's super productive and then now they don't they have no longer have a two-hour commute no that's what I'm saying how much more productive can they be you know what I mean people lazy lazy people yeah you're already you're gonna weigh them out because they're not gonna do the job anyway they're gonna get weeded out anyway right when Rift time comes when firing time comes they'll be first to go right exactly what's happening uh but the people that but the people that are productive are productive at home yeah every month 10 000 jobs cut from Facebook Google yeah it was crazy I don't know where these people are going where are they going what are they doing they're going to the employment line it's some of them some of them are chilling with the service packages for a couple of months you know see how things go and then they go back out there yeah from what I've heard things aren't picking up until

late next year or something yeah probably probably probably probably January yeah January February yeah it's definitely tough out there I mean I'm talking to so many people I'm seeing these postings and all these risks if you do that if you're doing AI though you probably have a job like today that's the bubble for this year but every every year there seems to be a thing to kind of jump on uh and I just don't see how unless you're constantly hustling how sustainable that can be uh I mean we we both know people like that who's always like on the cusp of the next thing and they they make it out profitable but man it must be tiring costly trying to you know jump on the next Trend and the people who kind of stayed where they were uh before the pandemic I I feel like are are benefiting and

coasting the best right now uh in terms of not worrying about the ups and downs of uncertainty the inflation uh moving relocating to somewhere uh that is a lifelong decision right they kind of around what they were used to before and are generally happy I've been reading and I've been hearing about people who who went fully remote to a new remote company not really considering you know who exactly they're working with right just good just to kind of have this situation for themselves isolated really nice but now because the hybrid thing and all this they're they're finally having to congregate and work with others and they're they're basically admitting you know what I I like my friends from before I miss them uh you know because that's a huge part of being around and working with others is just the personality it's it's it's it's nice yeah it's nice to see people face to

face sometimes yeah I'll I'll say it like that um sometimes it's good to see people face to face uh if you have to collaborate on something together it's good to see people face to face um whether that requires RTO or full-time in the office or whatever is highly debatable right um but face-to-face being with people collaborating people is good when you need to do it yep what do you think about all these gen Z years uh coming out of this bubble saying that they're ready to uh to manage you know skip this whole you haven't heard about this so there's there's a group of genziers that are kind of coming to the workforce and where normally you know experience knowledge gets kind of built over the years and then you get to management position they're kind of bypassing that and saying you know what I can do all

this I can start managing people I want to work two days a week uh you know 50k a year so I can travel well that'd be kind of dope though two days a week 50k a year that's not bad yeah you want you want to be managed by some guy some kid who's only two days a week because that was well that's okay let's go let's be real yeah let's just be real be real be real the majority of the managers out there and you know speaking of a manager myself right I I have a lot to learn too still right and so I feel like the majority of the managers out there do not know what they're doing right yeah a lot of people get thrust into management positions not ready for what it really means right for their teams and all that kind of stuff right so like with a gen zero straight out of school say I think they came out of somebody be worse than some of the worst managers I've ever had no I don't know you think they actually can add certain

they might actually be better than the worst managers I've ever had like there's there's a lot of bad managers out there man a lot of really bad ones right so um so like so it's not so crazy for somebody to be like man I could do this better you know what I mean right um it's it's not that crazy uh to think that when oh like I pick up there's a lot of CEOs and Executives that don't know what they're doing I've got to talk to you guys about magic mine being a podcast host is pretty demanding you always have to stay sharp keep your thoughts clear and maintain a pretty high energy level to especially engage with guests so I've always been curious always looking to learn and share but I must admit there are days that I struggle with a bit of brain fog so my routine in the morning usually consists of waking up pretty raw and immediately moving into my morning exercises this is how I've always tried to stay

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it is no management things which which is valuable in its own way right but um but when it comes to like the discipline of the people that you were managing like understanding that deeply like a lot of managers don't understand that you know all right let's kind of dive into this a bit because this is interesting to me it sounds like you haven't hung out with a lot of 20 year olds lately that's what I'm hearing uh uh but like seriously yeah I agree with you obviously yeah we've been through the industry I I probably have more bad managers than good ones you know count on a single hand yeah you know the good managers that I remember yeah obviously training is not we don't go to school we don't go through college courses we don't do any of this stuff that other Industries require you to earn the high the higher position we kind of go by you know who do you like more and who's yeah you better you've been here a long time oh

you want to get paid more money well to get paid more more money you got to be a manager so yeah usually without us that we trust people that are unprepared completely into it yeah and then you mix that with you know the nerd complex with power uh you know the guilt power hungry right and then they use it they abuse it more than use it correctly right uh yes that's all true right but the idea I I I I welcome your your your your your welcoming of new oh no no no yes oh no no don't get me wrong it's ridiculous right yeah but but I'm saying uh like is it any more ridiculous than what we're currently doing and the answer and the answer is probably not I feel like you're trading one grenade for another well yeah baby

baby fear right to to uh entitlement it is attributed to this newer generation right it's just a thing where I I feel like I should come in I should be successful I want to travel which is great you know basically putting life work yeah yeah life above work and that is admirable to kind of try to swing it the other way but we've seen in in many scenarios when you trade one from one exaggeration another it's never it's it's never really like better right it's just one extreme for another just to kind of balance things out um um the the things that I'm dealing with that I'm seeing with younger hey kids is that you know I could see Brad it cussing out the people that work for a raida that's hilarious thing about this right quiet

quitting right that is that is a thing popular with younger but no but hold up but hold up that whole thing is dumb right why because when you go up look at what the description of it is it's basically it's basically just doing the bare minimum yeah and people have been mastering do the bare minimum at work for years this isn't this isn't a gen Z thing okay it isn't you've been like people have been to lie to my face to me that is still you know commendable the effort of lying and trying to hide you know no work being done also also like the necessary I saw an article and this goes back to where we're saying about managers right if someone could quite quit and you don't notice or they're still doing their job yeah that's a manager but like the Spanish fault like you're

under utilizing them or you're just like you're just not paying attention right um and that's bad all the way around right well along with this quiet code and we talked about this before I I know friends I know people that are probably still doing this maybe it's less possible now that everyone's doing hybrid they are trending towards that way that people were balancing two salary jobs three salary jobs you know they were they were uh yeah double dipping right um so that was called working working two jobs at the same time you know two eight hours but in in reality what that really means they're they're working half time per job right and if if nobody's firing them yeah yeah kudos to them man cheating the system and and I I don't I don't think working working twice as hard as you normally would is cheating anything

if you only had one job he would only be working half the day right on the one job right uh but he's like oh what I'm gonna do with my other four hours oh let me work this next job and it's the same thing with people that like work a full job and then go home and do side projects I would say it's okay but overall if we take a step back from the last two years and look at the games that were delayed pushed back not accomplished basically half-assed right and you look at you know the data just shows like yo you guys are not you're not you think that you're swinging it right but you're falling short clearly uh in mass and so like I just the idea that you know you're not just lying to the employee you're you're lying to yourself that you're saying that you're you're thinking that you're able to do this right obviously nobody was able to do it um for various reasons but this did not help you know to work half-ass half time um

and I always admire someone that can hustle and and push it and like you said yeah I agree you know if the manager doesn't see the ruse uh it is the manager's fault the company's fault but at the end what is the what is the net you know cost of of us basically in my opinion kind of destroying me and you right we're on the good side of this right obviously um but what people are doing and have been doing and what these projects delay and what we're seeing is investors once again uh all the money's drying up uh for for good projects for good people because of all these bad practices again right it'll take another two years three years that's not why that's not why the VC money and the money is drying up eh like the bloody the money is drying up

because sure economy interest rates dudes are like hey money is not growing on trees anymore so I have to hoard my money I have to cut expenses and so like I'm not gonna just let's just be real investing in a video game is crazy town right it is you you are taking a huge risk because it's a creative thing that can completely flop right you have to believe in the team this building you got to believe in the people that that's building it and you could still lose everything right and so when money's free it's much easier to just be like placing multiple bets like it like because like money's free yeah but then money dries up then then you have to be a little bit more picky and and really get to like like who who do I think out of these sporty people that want money from me who's really going to make it you know what I mean um that's really what it is like it has

nothing to do with working from home people slacking off or whatever right um there's been good game stuff come out you know Diablo Diablo 4 I'm playing it right now it's pretty damn good game uh was that was probably made mostly with people um it is and especially with all the foolishness that's been going on with blizzard right um right like you know it's a good game yeah yeah it's a good game three bone Skate 3 just came out seems like it's a good game that game it looks massive right um like you know and the thing is there's gonna be games that are going to be late there's good there's teams that weren't ready for for covet and that definitely did impact people's timelines and things like that but at the end of the day you just have you have to deliver a good product right and and that will see you through more more times you know um that's really what it is so I think so it's definitely some of that for sure yeah the Ebbs and flow I mean they've said many times the game industry is

Recession Proof it is growing have always been growing projected to be growing uh in the next five ten years if anything's getting stronger I mean I've been talking to a lot of people how you know making a game isn't just about making the game anymore it's like IP branding to movie entertainment TV series being critically acclaimed yeah it's basically every project can be have a Star Wars impact you know with merchandising now because you have to be able to extract the money from multiple different sources exactly so I mean that that I I feel yes those that money where it's not so familiar with industry and not as you know uh who are s who are more fresh right but those who are familiar are still parking their money in the games too because they know like hey dude you put in the right places this it's gonna happen it's gonna go off

I'm talking about those VC guys who you come across and their bio is pretty much like if you I don't [ __ ] with games it's like if you I [ __ ] hate games you guys suck you know is is the voicing of a guy who got burnt by a bunch of snakes that we both know um from Bad practice bad managers just bad promises um yeah well you have to you have to bet on a team that knows what they're doing you know and you have to vet that and like go like do you do you think these guys are going to be able to do it or will it be able to build a team will they waste my money does this idea any good this is the idea unique you know there's a lot there's a lot of different things you have to think about um and especially when you're like especially in the VC realm like game industry growing is one thing but like if you're out there looking for money somebody else spent their money on you yeah uh now couldn't be a worse time

yeah that and don't buy a car or house well you could buy all those things just buy them cash yeah you can't get loans anywhere yeah yeah we'll say man I'm seeing more and more Teslas it's like every other car now in Orange County it's so much that and the Peruvian every time every time we do this we talk about what you're experiencing at Orange County all right 100 it's not what is happening in the rest of the world like this is what I'm seeing now man yeah we're we're we're the trendsetters right for the rest of California right and I'm seeing like a Tesla every other car right in my neighborhood I talked about this the stupid review and truck right which I feel is going to get bankrupt sooner than later uh and then I'm seeing Range Rovers just trending again it's

like Range Rovers everywhere it's like does everyone as she the new ones look the new ones look really nice it's bad and Tesla's it's like what is going on where's his money that everyone's just having to buy all these ridiculous cars uh uh they're buying them during the pandemic yes yes something's going on yeah like some kind of like package that I didn't sign up for yeah uh but I mean it seems like everyone's good over here there's no inflation over here everyone's fine um actually Tesla Tesla car prices have gone down they've done discounts yeah so that definitely helped um but I mean they're still expensive we're talking about like 40 50k base baseball it's like it's my you people are acting as a it was crazy I was driving like my cousin has one I was driving with them yeah and this lady stopped it was like you know because I was in Toronto and uh unlike Orange

County Tesla's a very hard to find in Toronto actually like they're not every other car uh not at all right and so some lady stopped him and asked him like how much was the car you know and he's like oh it wasn't that expensive it was only 60k that is and I yeah and I was I was laughing so hard and he was like what like like he was he was genuinely perplexed and I was like I was like bro you just said sixty thousand dollar car wasn't that expensive yeah you are out of touch you're out of touch with what's going on right a 60 dollar card is super expensive it's a luxury car it's not a cheap car yeah it's not 100K sure yeah right um but 60 000 on a car it's an expensive car um yeah that's what I'm saying yeah everyone's driving around like as if it's just like a Honda Civic I bought my current car for one third yeah yeah at that price right same here dude I bought

my pilot 10 years ago yeah 32 or something yeah and I was like man that is super expensive you know everyone's rolling double that uh during inflation supposedly which is great I guess everyone's doing fine uh how happy for him you know one of those uh but overall the what I'm seeing right now happening in the game industry is that there's a lot of there was a lot of money flowing VCS are closing shops you know uh for reasons that he said for reasons that I think as well um people who were who left in her in a Skippy right during the pandemic you know change of Lifestyle uh are I'm starting to see a trend of returning to more safe houses it's probably because of inflation uncertainty right sure you know what Blizzard's still there right still there let's go back to these companies that kind of been through

these storms right uh and uh and I'm telling you I'm looking because you know because of what we do as my company I'm looking at these demos uh from these newer ones and you know the the same problems they've always been it's like yeah it's like this is exactly man it's like dude what are you doing it's the same thing no one has figured out like I think it's for the same reasons we always said you know the technology has gotten greater Fidelity is is more accessible Ambitions have gone higher and uh and so for those reasons you know uh it's to me it seems a lot harder to make games nowadays it that which it's hard to believe right because you think lesser people more experienced people easier tools means we're seeing these Indie companies any crowds are making it but because I

feel it's a mixture of super senior who's been kind of uh sheltered right it's the best way I can describe it in like these cushy jobs for a long time going out and about trying to do this thing that you know is basically at the core grinding right uh without the safety net uh they're not knowing how this deal with that you know to take risks they don't they have to take risks to do something new they don't want to take risks okay and so yeah oh yeah well especially if you have somebody else's money right yeah exactly that's because they're all like hey what are you gonna do what's your social we'll spend five tests on this project oh wait you don't have that funding I mean what's going on don't you want at blizzard S type of IP uh what can you make it three years yeah exactly so they're starting to see the

realities of limitations you know that they weren't used to and yeah I think that's really good though yeah honestly I think it's really good that's great yeah took out of the world uh try to make your own thing experience what that's like run your own company there's a lot of valuable skills you get from Mac yeah and like you know there's there's people yeah there's people I work with now that like have their own companies and and exited or didn't exit or failed or whatever and now they work at a at a big company because they're like yeah I did that I learned some things from it and now let me bring dad while I was here right and it's a little bit more safer um and I have kids and you know they got to go to college and all this kind of stuff right like so you know you see it's good to get that experience to go out there right um and yeah dirty pen and also like I already said during the pandemic I found a lot of people thought about mortality and and Now's the Time you know what I mean

to to try to do something so yeah well now is like never mind is what we're going through right now it's my bad I'm crawling back uh which I I think is great uh like you said overall to have more experience people to kind of come back into the workforce and introduce what they've learned and be motivated again or at the very least be thankful you know to contributing to a bigger company and also and also on the topic of like these kids these days don't want to work and all this kind of stuff you know who wants to work people that have their own company those those fools those fools worked their asses off right so so you know that they they're about that grind right so this is what I'm saying all right I know you're kind of like having this hopeful uh opinion of the these youngins showing showing something that we haven't been

able to crack right like I have I have no hopeful opinions but I miss not so down on it I guess well I mean you're saying that potentially they could be good managers maybe they have something to show no I would say I was saying it can't be any worse than some of the bad ones so let me let me tell you let me ask you this right so we're in an industry that constantly needs to innovate right every every two five years something needs to happen to push the industry forward we're a technology industry right if these young kids are not wanting to grind basically learn you know the skills necessary and and and and bringing that into the workplace and and go through the motion of like working well with others but instead like you know what I know I'm hey hey Ray I know technically I'm a associate engineer but I feel like I can manage you and the

rest of your team back you know and like these kind of covers get used to this conversation right this is gonna happen I've never heard this conversation but this this is the attitude of entertainment that's happening no but you know what's so weird right we you talk about you're talking about the entitled gen's ears all this kind of stuff right and then me in my case I I know a lot of gen zeros that are they're anxious all the time and they're afraid all the time and and everything is is like a big production it really worries them to the point where they're like oh man I can't even work today like I I I see a lot of those cases where people are just overcome with anxiety um yeah yeah you have to take a day off and well just like like yeah anything in the workplace could trigger it like there's some cases where you're like hey I want to promote you and that could trigger anxiety because it's like oh I'm not good enough right a lot of imposter

syndrome and things like this right that's what I see more so in the youngsters and you know I I teach kids I teach high school and college kids like every week right and it I see so much imposter syndrome and these kids a lot right and I and uh and then I people that I work with um younger people that I work with that are like lower lower level like fresh out of school or early on in their career super dope super good anxiety thinking they're trash and like having other anxiety issues uh impacting their job right I see that way more than overconfidence I guess I guess I hang out with cooler kids yeah I don't know I don't know well you're hanging out with kids with humility right which is great but what I do see I think we're kind of part of we're cutting putting together part of the the same puzzle here you're seeing

both extremes right so the the confidence quote unquote feel like we can run the place and the people who are who are qualified are just socially uh uh awkward right I think our lives our lives have always been online I have um have changed it's changed how the people communicate yeah I find a lot of like like I'm like did I used to mumble like this when I was young no seriously and I would like I I look at all my friends or just yeah I just look at all my friends I just look like all my friends around me when we were in high school did we Mumble no we were loud as hell always talking right like like you know like and I just like why is so many of y'all mumbling and can't communicate because they don't talk they don't talk on the phone anymore they just text right so like I think social media a lot of these has like has a role in a lot it's like how how has changed the culture a bit I I feel yeah um but

yeah it's it's it's yeah I never I've I've never experienced I I know some confident young folk but uh but they're not that confident to be like all right well that's CPA manager this is where the this is where I'm seeing it is like you go on YouTube right it's the number one social media right tick tock whatever right sure and everybody seems to know how to uh have some knowledge that they can teach everyone's a teacher online right everything everyone know is is a professional and super qualified that's the that's the influencer game right but that's if and if you're seeing the video now if you're seeing the video that's an influence that's a good number of followers right right every influencer is following the same pattern right because you gain your following and you can only get so much money off of the ad Revenue right now oh what's a really low

effort way of getting passive income I started selling my courses your courses no different than the next man's course but who cares right right because you have your following teaching things that's an easy way of making passive income but this is you don't do it you don't have to do anything when you were growing up right yeah you're older than me you you were growing up when I was growing up we idolized very profound people that didn't that did have authority right and and didn't just have a presence on mine yeah yeah but but what I'm saying is that these kids are idolizing the influencers they look yeah influencers as a way to live life it seems fantastic little do they know you know the actual work is being you know it's being run like a virtual business yeah there's a lot of work there's a lot of people it's a business right but what they see is just access and you know the easy part of it right because you know the idea of

me filming myself with one camera a webcam in most cases and just talking to it and now they're living the life you know uh riding in private jets they're traveling around the world it's like I want that you know and and have the freedom to do everything they don't see what's going on so they bring this into the workplace The Confident ones that feel like hey you know I have somewhat of a following I have people that listen to me maybe you should listen to me you know so that there's that angle and then the other ones like you said are who are watching this who aren't exactly trying to build that uh and you know they rely on their skills and they see like hey I'm not that I'm not the person speaking in front of a mic with authority you know I'm just a person watching so I can't I can't do that you know I can't lead or be in a position to to lead or or be uh someone of of influence or someone inspirational because I see what

that looks like and I don't have that Ray I'm sorry uh so those are the two The Colony and that's the exaggerated where I see it because I hang out with really cool people right and then you where you see it on the other side where they're hiding you know behind cameras and [ __ ] right uh but like nothing in between like I haven't really seen you know in the younger crowd Someone Like You someone like myself right I kind of been seeing that side or the other side yeah like hey you're telling me basically that you know everything that comes to 3D modeling and you've had what two two years of experience yeah I'd be surprised if there is some like I think that's like I I you know I've definitely interviewed somebody oh oh I won't say where when it was I definitely interviewed somebody and he was straight up he came into the

interview shaking he thinking he was the hottest thing since sliced bread yeah right and uh and he was like how long is this gonna take I've interviewed I have an interview with Google like a little bit later right like straight up like that yeah you interview engineers in the Bay Area man you must enjoy these guys all the time no no this was the this was one experience with that and I was just like I was like all right I'm gonna just crucify this kid yeah right you know and that's that's what happened right um and of course didn't he didn't get no offer and he was not interested in our role at all so I don't even know why he was even the interview right um but yeah yeah but it was just like I I experienced that once but that General like I I remember that story I talked about that story because it is a crazy outlier like it's not something that I've seen happen happen a lot um I'm telling you I would love that I

would love to see some kids roll it up to Brandon being like I'm a better 3D modeler than you yeah I would love that on the front lines dude it's not even that it's like I've seen many YouTubers you know yeah they don't even watch school anymore I'm gonna be real I'm gonna be real with you though on that front yeah you can learn a lot off of YouTube and you access now and you can learn a lot without going to school just all for you too yes um I've seen it you know my own my own family you know um of course learn so much so much off of YouTube not saying like and then you have to practice the craft and you have to like put in the effort and you have to do all of the work involved right hey I I am um I've always been a a championing the self-taught because I've seen those guys throughout

my career and they all always above the cut uh in the workforce they just have this mentality and discipline to always learn and always look at like the best technique the best things possible what the the difference I'm seeing now with kids who have way more access than before is that kind of what you said the the social part of it awful just completely awful um and personality at least with artists is like 50 51 of the job in my opinion so if I can sit next to you I can't talk to you I don't care how good you are at modeling zebras or substance or whatever like I don't want to talk to you and then the the you know there's so much more than just you know the particular software and making things look pretty right into making a game jumpable um that's the only thing you can learn on the job the problem now is that since

a lot of the jobs are remote you don't have the experience firsthand experience um there's there's littler patience to to train a junior uh uh to can a handhold and Mentor uh someone uh on a zoom call right versus walking by a desk and like hey let me show you something right so there's this huge gap that basically people are looking for mid-level and up right they're not looking for junior Associates it's just it's just too it slows down the pipeline right I don't have time for that who who wants to sit in the zoom call to do that uh as a senior like you don't want to do that you have to okay first like Zoom caller or not who cares right um there's ways of not making it a zoom call and you should invest in those things um but um what we especially at a senior level um I believe is our duty yeah right to

to teach the youth right otherwise especially the stuff that I do um it's a dying art like it's it's dying like literally like the people not necessarily literally but it's dying off the people that know how to do these things are all work at Unity or at Epic right um and and that's it and then game companies are looking for those people and can't find those people can't support their custom engines and then use uddy and epic and then new people come into those Studios and just use unity and epic I have no understanding of how these things work under the hood right it's it's legit a dying art and so we it's up to us to to teach the youth yeah the ways you know and it's always that and it's always that and teaching especially in a company in a for-profit business that has deadlines all that kind of stuff is going to make you slower always yeah right and so you just

have to know that and say what's the benefit the benefit is you're growing internally your own people that will one day become seniors so when your seniors die off you have seniors right behind them to fill their space you have succession plans but you have to have all the stuff in order right you know you have to hire Juniors to build them into seniors right because you cannot just if you want to hire a senior off the street super expensive et cetera et cetera right the CD has four other options they might not choose your your company because they have other options but a junior that grew up that you've molded whatever uh could be potentially loyal to you or they could go off and do something else but you've you've added good into the overall system right it's super important like I I feel really strongly about that and people um you know I've talked with people before they're like they said the same thing ah man I don't get no time yeah right um and you legit just have to make the time

an Old Timer yeah yeah well you see that you see you see that's what I would call myself you see the you know you don't see the Grays in in the hair right like I've been around yeah I've been around for a while and like straight up straight up like this is a young man's game this ain't for old people out here well this is what I'm saying this is what I'm saying this is the danger yeah although I know you you you are a dying breed that sees the bigger picture I feel like and you're hearing this most people don't the remote way of doing things comes with it of me first mentality uh versus Team first or company first right well think about it this way yeah well yeah there you go oh hold on stop no stop stop stop if you team first company for are you crazy well why here why why should that ever be why should I ever be in your

brain right like you have to first of all me as a old-timer I've learned that this is not the way to be doing things every balance there's a balance though here let me write this point let me finish my point yeah yeah if the company can't Thrive and survive if the if the knowledge isn't being passed and and and to train up the younger fellows or females right uh to kind of grow up in these roles that they'll replace right and it's a it's a cycle that needs to happen but because these remote jobs the mentality behind that movement is life over work balance right right it's not life work balance it's life over work balance and this is how you you you you you you make that happen right you emphasize right me clocking and clocking

out and I'm out of here but hold on Ray why don't you help you know John here who's new to this ministry you you helped John during your work hours if you don't help John outside your work hours it'll help John during your work hours yeah but if that takes if that takes three hours out of your seven hours yes things go slower Your Capacity is reduced you're an honest that's how this works you're an honest 40-hour work guy which is rare dude you're like no no unicorn most people are are three to four hours max a day come on man some days some days you should some days you go to work five hours yeah some days you're gonna work 20. some days you're gonna work eight right that's you dude you no you're gonna get your job done that's it that's the only thing that matters that's the only thing that's the only thing you got measure right now is the work you do you

what they call a professional and it's a Dying Breed I'm telling you man people who get [ __ ] done are thriving in this time there are people who've always gotten [ __ ] done are getting [ __ ] done there's no argument to that right they're actually doing better right and they're being valued uh in a lot of cases I maybe not being valued enough the people who are getting lazier which is news flash the majority right it's always that majority the bare minimum man they're doing the bare minimum and they're all about hey man I can't wait to go on that boat trip this weekend I already I already told you I already told you one one yeah if bare minimum is happening and the manager's not noticing the job's not getting done that's a problem well because most managers suck we already we already choose this two yeah life is more important than work of course the boat the boat trip on the weekend is

more important than your job however that job is paying for you to go on that boat right right so you just gotta make sure that the check is coming right right has to come right you're an engineer never listen never sacrifice never sacrifice yourself but I'm just saying let's look at the math right never do that how is this going to be sustainable as a company that requires you know High performers uh and and new fresh blood to kind of carry the torch yeah right now I think that's the biggest crisis in this era where performers are on their way out right you guys are you're tiring right the ways are being forgotten like I feel like the ways of the office you know office is like an ancient Relic right that that's fast becoming there's certain things that we have to

let go of right okay it's gonna be people in place to kind of help this transition that's what I'm wearing yeah well maybe this is a huge gap there's a huge gap where people who know how the function have their work life balance in check are leaving we have this new generation of minimum work as possible quiet quitting whatever and not getting the mentorship because you know the mentors are not giving their time right to kind of give the knowledge and there's gonna be I feel like the you know the the industry can only go bad uh this this sounds like this sounds like all sorts of bad management up and down everything we just covered yeah we're also talking about the game industry where where we always talk about you know oh work-life balance and like don't Crunch and crunch is bad and

all these things right and and then we then now we're talking about quiet quitting yeah this is what it means no crunching to not showing us all right no man I'm telling you we got to make up our minds which one is it right is it right now I should have good quality of life or do we want do we want dudes just like the work is my only thing and and I want to do the only thing is do this work and then when the bosses decide that you are no longer valuable they just chop you at a moment's notice and throw you out in the street like like which one is it you know the fair Shake is yeah 40 hours a week yes you know it's an old Industrial Age thinking right you have to do 40 apps but in some cases you know if you want to do cool things it takes time right there's no secret sauce to that I mean if you want to do cool things it takes time well especially no especially

in time especially games you have to you have to iterate right that's interesting conversate yeah around each other and figure it out right and I just feel like there's so much to that equation that's starting to disappear right uh for whatever reasons let's just say for whatever good or bad right it's disappearing I the youngins don't want to do it the oldies are leaving uh you know managers are still bad right I I if anything worse right if it's remote like if you were a bad manager on site I'm sorry man you're gonna be a worser manager off-site which is what I've seen yeah 100 over like shadowing you know hovering and using zoom in the worst ways right to kind of progress check people um so I I see more of this trend happening uh and then I see the crops of of students and and newcomers coming in I'm

like man this is getting worse you know this is getting worse yeah and and another is yes they can introduce Forward Thinking way or alternate perspectives that can be refreshing but in most ways in my opinion the repeating mistakes right simply because me and you have created all the mistakes possible at this point to making a game all right I mean how many rocks have we left unturned at this point at making terrible games you know I mean there's probably a few left between me and you we've made a lot of that games in the worst ways around the worst people right so these new guys are not gonna discover anything quite new right they're just gonna ReDiscover things that we've solved in some way or another but now we're not having the the ability to be around to tell them like hey you don't want to do

that um I will say I will say they got this note of young people and like overwhelming confidence um like I do experience some of that with with the kids I teach right yeah no no like like remembering no no no definitely anxiety is definitely the overwhelming thing right yeah um but like but what I do experience um and that's part of my role of what I do with these kids is uh you know for example one just one project that they're working on they're like we're gonna use Game maker and I'm like why no right um because you have me and there's other people your mentors a lot of these people are gonna know how to help you out not in gamemaker yeah because they have they have no idea how to use Game Maker right they're like students like I know game maker yeah of course it's all good I got this right I'm like word okay

you know I'll Trust you right do your thing that they come back and they show something it's functioning in game maker but they're like we're hitting some roadblocks you know it's and we really don't know how to get through them and we can't really get any help because nobody knows game maker oh shocking shocking I think I told you six weeks ago turns out to be true yeah and then they're like so with two weeks left we're gonna switch images to Unity of course and they have it working on the screen by the way you have a partially working on the screen in gamemaker hey bruh I I was like I was like what are you talking about right switching engines mid development it's the best thing ever what are you talking about like that's what I'm saying dude yeah yeah but but here's the thing I'm there yeah to give them some guidance on this FBI but like at least at least for this deadline that you have coming up it's

gonna stay where it's at right and then maybe if you want in the future after this deadline the switch is just going right on ahead you ain't doing that now no way right and here's all the reasons why that's a bad idea and it's always been a bad idea and every project that has ever done that is a bad idea right like you know it's just a bad idea don't do it right and so you're there to give them guidance right in their moments of extreme confidence right or I sometimes they might not even be confident about it but they're just like naive yeah yeah we gotta do it they just don't know any better you know what I mean but that's always been the case yeah that's what I'm saying that that exchange of experience that is being devalued by the newer kids because they feel like well it seems like you guys work your ass off for nothing and you're still trying to retire at 65 I don't want to do that that's obviously wrong they're throwing what they call it the the baby with the bath water like so they like nothing works right which is not true you know

nothing is black and white like that that's that's true but that's the same time too is like young folks do have might have some some new ideas to bring to them but you can't you gotta but you know that's where conversations have to happen for sure what you know this guy is on his way out and like [ __ ] you guys you know I've been burnt you know I've been bruised you know I'm damaged I'm ready to go uh good luck you know especially with all these catty attitude uh you know who who wants to help that I mean that that is the worst type to want to help right I mean how many cocky kids in generations of human history that that actually you know it the Dalai Lama is the only one that actually you know what let me just tell my time I'll just say this I cannot imagine Brandon as a kid was not cocky I'm sorry I just can't imagine it I that's why I'm sorry I know

how terrible I was you know I mean and these kids are are scaring me right what does that say I barely got a career right but yeah these kids have no chance I was terrible you know I was like a a a a a youthful Warrior trying to like change everything at this well-established company right I definitely you know I definitely I've went into situations when I was earlier in the industry and said some crazy [ __ ] wow wild [ __ ] right like it happens you know what I mean there's somebody there to be like yo sit down yeah be quiet right because it's happening in in different circumstances yeah Zoom call a disc a slack you know it's just not the same to me yeah time change yeah with with with what you said before we have Talent accessible at a global scale right at a click of a button how much time you're going to give this little

dweeb all right when you know a candidate just applied with the same exact job this is what I'm saying like how much patience are you gonna have to sit through and every hey let's let's work this out [Applause] that most people are experiencing right now right accessibility is great but it comes at a cost how much patience are you gonna have to train someone up in the old ways right yeah when you can just it's like it's it's like it's like when online dating became popular I can just date someone else right now it's just really quickly I can just click on the next profile I don't have to sit with you on this call and then listen to you wow it's gone to that point man this is the reality like

people are choices especially now that it's a buyer's market this is the reality if you have to people are expecting the minimum which is do your job 40 hours a week right and if you don't do that I feel like you're gonna have a hard time you know Landing back in reality that's just how it is because the people who are hiring for jobs the the people who are giving jobs out are Cut From the Same Cloth where where are the oldies here right and we have our old way of thinking it's like hey don't [ __ ] with me right I just I just want work to get done bro that's it exactly I'm telling you dude yeah this new generation aren't getting it done and what's worse is they're complaining how exhausted they have

anxiety they're reaching anxiety Heights quicker right and it's like yo just just fix the Collision you know I mean it's like what are you talking about it's like I also just think of it like all the anxiety topic I would say like they're they're definitely was you know yeah what we did somebody somebody I know said something oh like I was like what did we do back in the day because I didn't hear about all this anxiety stuff all the time whenever When We Were Young yeah I don't remember that yeah well my friend was like oh we just we just drank a lot [Music] but there's something about being around your peers laughing about it you know kind of relishing in each other's experience and pain that helps like a common comrade right but what we're seeing is like these kids are in isolation and they feel alone and

they feel like they're the only one going through it everyone seems to be doing fine and uh they're less inclined to share because there's a there's a it's embarrassing quote unquote right and what well they don't have to relate to another human being right yeah like well that's that's the part where again where the management comes in right you have to make space and then make it a place where like hey you're not performing right now I'm not seeing the [ __ ] I need to see from you yeah not [ __ ] get back to work what's going on yeah I mean you know how are we here uh yeah well after the uh second performance Improvement program that you implement right I mean gonna reach the limit no this is long before it hit plans right like I mean this is this is the first thing you do what's going on with you what's going on in your life like what's happening tell me and let's see what we could do right

yeah and then if that continues then like performance Improvement plan and all that right that's that's a different thing um but like I mean you just got to start with the basics like like what's going on right because some people just need to know that you care and then and then things will turn around and sometimes it won't and then you have to then act on it you know it's time most times it won't because the sneaky entitlement in the background that's happening it's like well everyone else is wrong obviously I'm right because I'm cool I'm awesome right there's this narrative where I'm the hero of this story right you're just you're just a side character I was like hold on I'm your boss it's like I'm I'm just seeing all sites of foolishness man and it this is trending right I'm seeing this with a very defined age group and it's not even that young I'm talking about like low 30s and Below like it's

not just 20s it's just this thinking for this block of people uh the pandemic definitely changed a few things uh and the remote thing accelerated very isolating personalities um I I hope things change man I really do I've always been a proponent I know it's difficult to kind of separate the high performers and let them keep doing what they're doing but also the mass that are lazy who don't know what they're doing they need to be back in the office man I know it's like the office wasn't a great place but at least it like it solved a lot of these unsolvable problems right now resume I just feel like these these people who are not good being isolated are

are not going to find a solution uh because you know there's a solution to isolation is congregation right so you just got to be around people you just gotta you gotta figure out you gotta figure out ways to do both you gotta figure out ways to to bring people in when you need to train them when you need to talk to them in person face to face when you need to yeah and then times where you're like okay go back go back to the farm Billy yeah I get to work you know what I mean like you just have to manage those things and I think that costs more money I think that's more expensive it costs more time it slows things down right but but it is definitely pro-worker I think everything needs to the interview process involves some type of CrossFit training to see who can see no but see hold on hold on see you are not an engineer we've been doing that for years for decades right uh so so the infamous whiteboarding

um interviews Right For Engineers are brutal right and it came to a point where people were like this is useless we shouldn't be do this anymore right and then some Old Guard is like ah we're gonna let anybody come up in here working out right you know uh he you can't reverse a string of linked lists for memory anymore you know like yeah come on man anyway but I I I'm interested to see how this unfold I I thought by now we'll kind of have like a full measure but the more I read articles because now they're they're starting to have the full data I think they're finally like seeing the the impact of all these decisions and how these companies are are figuring out and and basically analyzing this new this this this covid pandemic Workforce that's coming in um and dude I was in and out right it's like twenty dollars an hour now right I was like that's pretty good in Orange county is like twenty dollars

an hour as a star you can afford to live in a cardboard box but yeah yeah cool but I mean like twenty dollars I mean that was a that was entry level for 3D artists but then back when I'm speaking I was making stuff like that back in the day but yeah yeah but like the the it's great to see pride right in in these kids that are serving me burgers but yo you're serving Burgers bro on the attitude here yo hit it out in and out has pretty good benefits for their work is exceptional in and out if I wasn't a 3D artist I didn't have a degree it would be in and out or Costco I already thought about this right it's one of those two they said yeah they enjoy their job yeah but it's the attitude that's what I'm saying it's like you're still flipping burgers bro

very tasty the burger is very tasty it's delicious I love it I go there all the time I come I come with the same scathing I see I see that I see that it's calm down huh all right just give you give me my double double yeah you see my double double all right uh let's drop drop the snootiness but uh all right I mean we hit over a little hour it was always you know it's always a great pleasure to talk to you to catch up with you to kind of give you you know a little bit of the future right is how I say it sure sure and you come back five months later oh Brandon everything you said came true yeah of course just just because I said you were right once does that beat it will happen again you know you know what they say you know what they say a broke clock is right twice a day I'll take that man I'll take the thoughts uh proudly but uh awesome man uh keep San Francisco alive we need it

get out of here be out here uh as always how do people find you connect with you Twitter man Twitter what does Twitter do oh oh yeah that's right that is existing actually yeah don't even contact me there um just search for me on LinkedIn LinkedIn uh or uh X formerly known as Twitter No forever Twitter forever baby it's been here forever all right see you guys hello everybody Brandon here I want to talk to you today about something very special you've been on this wild ride together haven't we from my early days as a senior employee feeling a bit lost all the way to Leading multiple Studios transitioning to smaller Indie teams into the mobile industry and now running my own game studio for the last six years throughout this time you've been here listening and learning along with me sharing this never-ending journey of Discovery this year I'm kind of on this quest of meeting serial Studio Founders discussing Acquisitions or exploring

what it takes to grow Studio to over 100 Developers I've always tried to find an exciting topic to delve into and every year is a little different the focus is a little different because that's where I am in my career currently and I want to be able to share what I'm learning with you guys so I've always been to dedicate to asking the tough questions bringing you insightful answers from industry leaders and experts and now I want to share with you how I'm applying these answers to my own Journey this is why I'm excited to announce that for just 1.99 per month you can now subscribe to our exclusive content series these bonus episodes will give you a deeper look into my personal experiences and how I'm putting into practice what our esteemed guests are preaching it's more of a personal side of the journey that I hope will show you that we're all in this together and we're all continuously learning whether you're a game developer Studio founder or just a passionate gamer there's something in it for everyone by subscribing not only will you gain access to this exclusive content but you also be supporting the ongoing

production of the regular programming it helps keeps the lights on and ensures that I can continue bringing you top quality content and insight into the world of game development the links to the Subscribe are in the description your support means the world to me and helps me keep doing what I love sharing this journey with you so show some love hit that subscribe button and let's continue this adventure together thank you offer you continued support and as always stay tuned for more exciting content until next time this is Brandon signing off [Music] [Music]