Lost XP: Why Junior Game Developers Quit and How to Help

[Music] thank you thanks for being with us here today we're really pleased to be here with you to talk about school to work Transitions and also the experiences of early career game developers my name is Johanna Westar and I'm an associate professor at Western University which is in the other London we say London Ontario in Canada and I'm going to be presenting a little bit of research from two projects that I'm involved in as a part of this uh this panel and then we're going to turn it over to a much more Dynamic exchange with these three wonderful people that that I have up here with me who are going to introduce themselves and then we'll get started so do you want to go first hi my name is Pierre Lux I work at

rum HR and I'm also a teacher at Phuket a university in Montreal thank you my name is Sarah spiers and I'm the director of global development at the igda foundation and a development director at EA [Applause] [Music] fans oh my gosh what's going on oh hi everyone I'm Dr Jake and Vela I'm the executive director of the international game developers Association the igda awesome and I have already done the panel wrong because I was supposed to remind everyone to turn off your phones um and we will have q a at the end um and there are two microphones here that you can come to for that and I'm also to remind everyone uh to fill in the evaluation form at the end of the session uh so thank you in advance for that okay so this panel is gonna um dig into uh perhaps a paradox that we're seeing of Labor Supply and labor

demand in the game industry so on the supply side of things we see um over the last even 10 years a growing number of educational programs uh in game development writ large with an increasing number of students who are graduating with diplomas with undergraduate degrees graduate degrees in game development but we also are hearing um from a lot of those students and from Junior developers that it's really hard to find a first job in the industry but on the other side we're also hearing a lot from Studios who say that they're facing perennial labor shortages um and they can't find good talent uh and we also see in studios that there is a quite a um Recruitment and Retention problem um going on in in studios as well so I mean we do acknowledge of course that the game industry is Project based so we're going to have a slightly greater

tolerance for a little bit of churn because there is a lot of capital Mobility there's a lot of Labor Mobility but even within that context there seems to be quite a disconnect going on for this school to work transition and also perhaps in terms of the human resource management practices at Studios that are specifically geared towards early career or Junior game developers and and part of that challenge or that disconnect that Paradox is what um prompted me and some of my colleagues some of them who are sitting here today um to start some research looking into these issues um and so we have a project right now called the first three years um and we are looking to recruit students so if you're a student in the final year of your game program uh come and talk to us um but the intention is to interview students um just before they graduate and then also follow them for the next three years as they go out and and look for work and try to understand a little bit

better what's going on in those school to work Transitions and and hopefully uh build some greater understanding about about the supports that that could could better help students um and then another research project that I'm involved in is the developer satisfaction survey which is a survey that has been running for a long time it's something that that is a flagship program that the igda work in Partnership on and we've got many many years of data now from the developer satisfaction survey that is benchmarking really important Trends on some of these questions as well so looking at that um developer satisfaction survey data we ask we've asked over the years folks to answer how many years do you expect to remain with your current employer and what we have presented here is data from the 2015 survey the 2019 survey and also the 2021 survey and you

can see that many many game developers don't expect to be with their current employer for a long-term period of time and if we add up The Columns of the 2021 survey for less than one year one to three years and four to six years we see that 58 of the respondents do not imagine that they're going to be with their own current employer for longer than six years so we are really seeing evidence of that churn we also see that that big blue bar there with indefinitely under it back in 2015 about 24 percent of our respondents said well I'm going to be with my current employer indefinitely and we see a big shift in the 2019 and the 2021 data where now that that group is only around five percent so there's a greater uncertainty there um across the years to build on this a little bit from the

um first three years data that we're you know we're still interviewing students and so this is all um preliminary at this point but we um ask the students as as part of their interview what would make them leave a job in the game industry and then we also ask what would make you leave the industry all together and um we've pulled together the the most common uh themes or the most common groups of answers and the top one for why someone might leave a job is because of toxic culture and so students talk about that in a range of different ways um you know individual conflicts or personality challenges um problematic bosses problematic co-workers students talk about discrimination they talk about harassment they're aware of of some of these issues in the industry and and and those feel like deal breakers for them

um also talking about if they're working at a company that isn't a fit or it isn't representing their values and and their kind of personal goals or if they're working on a game project that isn't reflecting their values that's something that would make them consider leaving a job um the the second category that we see coming up a lot is the idea of a lack of respect and so students talk about um a lack of respect of themselves as an individual or themselves as a whole person um and so if they're not feeling like they can kind of be themselves and be respected for themselves as a whole person in a job that would be something that would prompt them to leave um also if they're in a job that isn't um kind of respecting or allowing them to make contributions in terms of their artistic uh or technical or creative skills that's something that that would make them leave a job as well and then the third most common uh theme is around work-life balance and so we do

hear from students that that's that's a really really big issue and a lot of students will say you know yeah I want to work in games is really important to me but I'm not gonna you know sacrifice my whole life for my family or or whatever to do that we hear similar answers when we ask okay what would make you leave the industry all together and we've grouped the kind of first category into something we're calling systemic issues at the moment but really captures a lot of that kind of toxic toxicity uh challenge um issues that students feel are not solvable by themselves perhaps or by any studio so they're really sort of looking at the industry and saying man you know these these issues are really too big they're never going to get fixed and so I'm going to leave and some of those issues really are around things like discrimination things like toxic workplaces Etc um that that just seem to be things that that will never change so it's

unfortunate because it's reflecting a little bit of a hopelessness in a way for for students um when they they face some of those issues the lack of work-life balance comes up again and also uh students recognize that they would leave the industry if they're seeing better opportunities in adjacent fields and maybe this is a shift our panel will kind of reflect on on some of this in uh in a minute or two but um the passion argument maybe isn't as strong for some of these students who are saying you know what I do have a lot of talents and I have transferable skills and I'm willing to leave the game industry if if I'm going to get a better opportunity elsewhere so we also in the DSs ask a question of students in particular we ask them how confident are you and your ability to find a first job in the game industry within six months of graduation and you can see here that they're not particularly confident and perhaps the data here is also getting worse year over year in the DSs and so in the 2021

data 43 percent of the students said they are not confident at all and 24 said that they're not too confident that they're going to be able to find a job so really seeing this this challenge for students in that space um and then again kind of putting that together with the first three years data those preliminary results um we are asking questions about whether these educational programs are actually preparing students well for the industry or you know many of them are cropping up but you know are they are they doing uh an appropriate job here um our Junior game developers ready to hit the ground running do students have a realistic job preview and we're hearing that very few of these programs have courses or classes that talk to students about working conditions in the industry or about workplace culture so they don't have a lot of experience or exposure on that front we see a really

mixed bag in terms of professionalization experiences like co-ops internships opportunities to connect with or liaise with industry there are there are some gaps there we hear on the on the positive side 50 of the students that we've talked to and we've interviewed just over 100 so far I do have uh experience working on games before they they graduate but that of course leaves 50 who don't um and of course many students have made games as part of their uh their program but because of the the constraints of an academic program they're often making them you know over a very short time period And so these games uh are really focused on rapid prototypes they often don't give students an opportunity to really see something to a full completion they haven't worked over the course of a kind of an entire game cycle they haven't been able to work on polish and definitely have been able to have

sort of experience things of the size and the scope that they might once they they shift over into the industry so with that framing um we're gonna turn over to the panel and just get a lot more experience uh of of what uh is is going on out there on the ground um we're going to kind of start talking about um the developers themselves so talk a little bit about um different motivations for our employment so these are some guiding questions here for our panel to uh to consider in terms of the career expectations and desires of early career developers what are they looking for uh what supports are are out there and uh I'll turn things over so who wants to jump in Sarah okay so at the igda foundation we have several programs that help people get into and stay in games and one of them is the Scholars Program and I've been associated with that program for several years and what's been interesting about it is that over time what students are communicating that they want is changing and that's

even reflected in the data that we're seeing at the beginning when I joined folks are really focused on finding a home that they could stay at and grow and like they're working on their favorite game and that's what they want to do but over time it's shifted to you know I know I'm gonna have to move every couple of years like I'm expecting this this is how I grow this is how I get the salary this is how I find a place in this industry and it's just so interesting because companies want people to stay they want that consistency they want to know that they're going to have those resources um but but that industry or or the folks entering the industry have different priorities now I'm happy to take the next part um in addition to expectations the igd the IGA we have we are like a launch pad for careers for early early developers Junior developers who want to advance and what we see is that they expect a sense of community in the

places that they go to the studios that they go to and oftentimes those communities need to be founded in inclusion diversity Equity inclusion of course but also in supporting the gaps in the educational experiences that they have so that they can grow that they have a professional growth track that they have mentorship so there are a lot of expectations for for from Junior developers when they're looking for that job um looking at the data I don't want to be the angry HR person but the data is very telling and it's quite alarming to see that trend of of those answers especially you know coming out of of this pandemic and you know I have a few gray hair I've been in industry for you know about 20 years and what I'm hearing in interviews and also from students that I'm teaching to um is quite different in terms of what people are looking for when it comes to considering a job or considering a job move and and these things change drastically what I feel has not changed for most Studios is how they express

themselves towards that community and you know what I'm hearing towards you know the new generation coming into the the industry you most of you are students here so what I'm hearing is quite different but it's also quite inspiring I'm hearing you know some colorful languages to or colorful language to describe this generation well there seemed to be a disconnect between you know what people want as they integrate a job and what um hiring managers have as expectations and you know we used to talk about growth advancement job security benefits and now I feel like you know things have shifted a bit we're talking a little bit more in depth about values Talent Development self-growth work-life balance diversity and inclusion and I feel also like the new generation getting into the workplace also want to know who and why they work for they want to know where the money goes what's the impact of the organization in their industry but also in the world and what

policies are put in place to kind of embrace those values and I feel like this kind of communication stream or that bridge between Studios and and Workforce has kind of been broken and we kind of need to kind of flip the tables here to to kind of readjust that and answer to a need that this new generation has as they integrate the workplace yeah I think that's a what you made me think of like a holistic approach that developers are searching in their job search and that that really goes back to the idea of their values and value alignment when you're looking for that job the expectation that your workplace will reflect who you are as a person because you spend so much time there and you make so many relationships in addition to that there's an expectation of building Capital not just your salary of course we we all want to ensure we can have a living wage if not more but also the social capital element the cultural capital elements that workplaces can provide folks who are just entering the industry

so that they can increase and grow and Elevate their career to to see how these companies are trying to attract the talent and like you were both mentioning we were essentially presenting these values of the folks who are currently in leadership but they had very different perspectives about what they wanted and we're trying to fit new Talent into this box and there is such a mismatch of what they're actually seeking and so you see a lot of this happen in conversations and interviews where people are asking you know what do you want from this company and they're expecting you know I want to be here I want to you know be the next rock star and and like really be the the like the game designer of this company blah blah blah and really what actually is happening is to say you know what are you folks are asking the companies like what are you doing for diversity Equity inclusion in your company you know who is my manager how are they going to support me and if they don't get the answers that they want they're leaving and so you know companies will be like why wait why why why is that such an important

thing because at the time what was important was that advancement right and you know that one word comes to mind and that's trust I feel like you know employees want to build trust towards them their employer and for that you kind of need to walk the talk when it comes to what you're putting forward in in terms of all those policies that are put in place and and how Studios really act as a a corporate Citizen and that's super important and that trust I feel is is kind of gained through transparency and that transparency to me has to be felt towards every aspect of the employee experience from defining a need to you know salary transparency to candidate experience and to career advancement and that transparency sometimes tend to be a little bit lost through corporate messaging and to me that's kind of where the disconnect is at the moment and especially with kovid um it's it's a lot harder to kind of communicate those values when you're not really feeling it you know when we talk

about the environments that attracts people it's not really about a happy hour and a pool table and a popcorn at lunch time you know it's it's not really about that anymore and when we're talking a little bit more in depth about you know Career Development and talent development this is where I find some studios have a hard time catching up it might be one of the the keys to kind of reverse that that Trend that give me a lot of feelings exactly yeah you know what I love the the talk on the expectations that that developers have and a lot of it does go back to that studio what they are doing what policies they're implementing how they're attracting diverse Talent how are they retaining diverse talent because really that's ultimately the issue at the end is how people are leaving and so um that might be a good segue into just kind of overview of Studio responsibilities um happy to happy to start that shocking the next slide Jake and it's like we've

rehearsed um uh it is on this this question right so obviously students themselves uh job Seekers have individual responsibility for their career trajectory right need to you know work hard in your program build your portfolio uh um finesse your skills uh for for interviews and and resumes and all that kind of stuff um but it's probably not fair to say that that employability is only on the shoulders of the student right that we need to kind of talk about all the stakeholders who are involved here and definitely we have educational institutions that are perhaps making promises to students about where they're where they're going to end up and then also the studios that that receive those students and and where does the responsibility lie in those groups for um picking up some of the slack here or trying to meet in the middle a little bit more on on these employment

challenges so peer Luke maybe we can go to you first because um you know you talk to Studios a lot you've got feelings about what you're what you're hearing from Studios and maybe their excuses um in in some of this space yes and that comes with you know many different aspects of this thing but coming out of kovid what I see as a trend is a lot less opportunities for junior talent I see Studios opening up a lot less internship tips a lot less entry level positions and I hear a lot of BS from Studios sometimes I'm sitting on the other side of the table and there's some you know some alarming things that I'm hearing from hiring managers and potential employers regarding the support so what I'm hearing is oh you know we're not gonna open up internships this summer because you know we're working hybrid or fully remote now and we can't really support the junior Talent we kind of want people that can hit the ground running and we're not able to Mentor them properly to me that doesn't that doesn't stick anymore

um I think of course are the systems optimized to support people in this kind of new context maybe not sometimes it's just about how you invest time and how you build proper systems communication challenge channels and proper you know integration programs to make sure that this new reality is adapted to you know making sure that people are well integrated but for a studio as as a corporate citizen um to say that you know they can't really support people because of this new context I hear a little bit of BS here but I'm I'm kind of confident that towards you know new channels and new you know communication stream we can we can make it happen and and open up those those Junior openings because this trend is is quite alarming oh there's so much to unpack there right yes I agree I mean just to kind of jump off of that too we're saying we're expecting people to join companies and hit the ground running it's so interesting that we're

expecting that out of our junior level developers when I see senior level director level folks come on come out onto companies and they're given six months to figure things out like why do they get extra time and when we're expecting people who are really just getting into their jobs to just know what they're going to do already right that's not fair and we're setting people up to fail and then we're going well they just didn't have what it takes or else maybe they were not cut out for this way oh we didn't need Junior Talent we needed senior Talent this whole time it it's hypocritical and we need to be cognizant of how we're setting up people to succeed or fail at the at companies right it's our responsibilities as folks who are managers as folks who are onboarding for other you know developers to make sure that we're being realistic with our expectations and mindful of how we're treating people coming to our companies because that's going to set the stage for the rest of their time there and perhaps the rest of their career amazing I agree 100 with everything you said and in addition to that kind of going back to something Pierre Luke had mentioned

it is BS it is I'm just going to call it out it is BS because a lot of the things you had mentioned that uh you know Studios will say they can't do or they're we can't you know get an intern or Focus too much it really starts with intentionality if you really focus on the priority of developing a strong Talent pipeline into your community into your studio you start with intentionality and intentionality will then get you to all right how do I actually support these developers who are coming to us and we should know that there is going to be additional ways of support we should be providing like a mentorship like progression plans Etc but it is BS and a lot of times it it's a technology problem not necessarily A people problem it's like get your Zoom accounts and get them on line and let them Shadow you know there's there's so many opportunities to change the way we support training and development internally um and then in addition to that I think I mentioned mentorship I can I can go

down that rabbit hole you don't have to do and be everything for your studio you can look to current resources and not reinvent the wheel for resources like mentorship or career development for example the igda provides a lot of these resources to individuals and Studios studios especially you know Indie Studios who don't have a ton of capacity look to others look to community organizations look to the resources that currently exist and see how you can implement the current resources out there into your studio practices do not reinvent the wheel because that's just more that's going to add fuel to the flame of but I don't have time and that that that doesn't fly so can you guys like you know if a studio said to you I mean but I don't have time right I've I've need to make this game it we need to ship it in X number of months um you know I need someone who's ready ready right now like is that is that a

valid statement do you think or or you know what what what's the answer to a studio who says that to you purely do you want to take that off what do you tell them well um as as we were saying it's it's kind of a very short-term uh approach to things that can be long-term I mean as an industry I see a lot of success stories from two then from students six six months in that perform Super well and sometimes yes the expectations are a little bit high but with the right support with the right time and with the right communication channels there there are a lot of super talented artists out there or programmers or developers or designers that can integrate our our Studios brilliantly it's just as you said it's it's it's it's a matter of systems Communications uh Chicken in mentorship and as a studio I think it is uh hour I say hour but many studios it is your responsibility to kind of rethink what talent development is how do you support

managers and equip managers that are usually expert in what they do but not really experts and people manager to kind of become that manager that can support that can lead with empathy and openness and availability and to kind of rethink the model on how we supervise people and how we train and develop our talent is I think is going to make people stick around a little bit more on the midterm perspective they will see this job as less of a transaction but more as you know a place when they can Thrive and in a place that cares and that can invest in them on the long term so having that you know that mentality of course yes sometimes we do need senior talent but there's a certain ratio yo that makes sense when you do have optimal communication challenge that that can work so um yeah I think kind of stepping back a little bit and looking at the long-term perspective of a project having a few extra Juniors I feel won't have a huge impact on the

quality of a project we also sometimes hear from Studios like onto the idea of kind of hiring uh more diverse Workforce as well that like well that's hard to do right I can't do that there aren't diverse applicants or I don't know where to look um Jake and do you want to weigh in on that I read my mind I was literally about to be like I want to talk about di right now um so that's a great question and kind of going back to the you know excuses board um it really is a matter of intentionality again I go back to that because if you're having trouble hiring diverse Talent often oftentimes it is likely the way you are going about your search there might be a lot of implicit bias look at your job postings are they gendered do they have inclusive language when you do interviews how are you conducting these interviews are you hosting like Zoom interviews with the video off so that you can really just focus on the content of the experience

and there is no way there's implicit bias um you know between what you're seeing is there are you screening applicants appropriately or are you using software to do so how are you reviewing portfolios all of those elements include opportunities for human bias and that's that's not a good thing that's that's a that's a problematic aspect to hiring for diverse and Equitable Talent so yeah I would say start with your processes look internally and reflect because oftentimes you can find where those gaps are and the talents out there if you if you're having trouble finding people look to organizations see I'm seeking support in reaching you know this particular group of folks or look globally we're a global industry we do not have to have everyone be in the same city or the same country especially with remote work there's absolutely no reason to just focus on one particular area

um the responsibility is is multi-sided right and so we've talked about um Studios we've bashed Studios a little bit here um but there's also the other side right of the responsibility of the educational institutions and I think Sarah you want to come in maybe on that I have thoughts about school um so what we're seeing more and more are schools that have game programs which is really exciting but the way that we are marketing games programs to our students can be really misleading um we see a lot of like oh come to our game program you're going to learn XYZ and we have people in these companies and they're doing these amazing things but what you're not being told is that that student that got into X company had to work two jobs on the side and they also had to do an extra project and maybe you know they happen to know somebody at one of these companies that's not being advertised to you um and so folks are coming through these programs thinking that they're going to get that job immediately and that's not

what actually happens and then on top of that we're actually seeing a mitch a mismatch of the quality of work coming out of these programs with what studios are wanting students to have and so at some point where you have to ask the question like do we you know require universities to push students to work even harder and to produce even more or do we talk to the studios and say please like have more realistic expectations and be willing to support and grow this talent and that's that kind of chicken and egg scenario we're dealing with right now um I mean overall I find that most educational programs will uh train great uh artists programmer designers technically I think something that's a little bit uh passed a little bit too fast in educational programs in general is all about soft skills what about emotional intelligence empathy navigating in chaos priority management self-care Stress Management Mental

Health leadership I mean I can I can name a few I can name a lot more but I find that in the educational system right now I think there's opportunity here to kind of bridge the gap between technical skills and soft skills and in today's era post covid from distance those skills are becoming necessary what we were looking for in terms of soft skills 10 years ago has dragged drastically changed and I find that those skills are kind of overseen in in educational programs that should be a little bit more present and then coming from education myself um I understand the complexities of curriculum approvals changing changing things in a degree program and ensuring it matches what is needed in Industry so most institutions will have it but if they if you if your institution does not require like some sort of employer Studio Advisory Board to support the development of curriculum that does

transition and does translate well for the student leaving the University or college and entering into the workforce then you need that that's absolutely imperative and we see community colleges at least in like North America or the US specifically community colleges do a very good job about that because they're often required but we're also seeing an emergence of alternative educational opportunities for students whether that's more training that's not necessarily school credit but it's a kind of experiential learning and then also the potential for apprenticeship models in education to really tie in the curriculum with the work being done and those are very important considerations that I think institutions should seriously consider moving forward and to help bridge this Gap that we're seeing seeing in in the first three years data too is is to this point of students are

doing a lot themselves around their educational program so um student clubs that are the ones running um game jams although game jams are problematic in their own way in terms of like crunch culture but that aside uh you know we've heard from some students who are saying like yeah we have connections with alumni but we kind of built that ourselves or yeah we um were required to do an internship but we had to find it ourselves and so there is a lot of this extra work actually that students are doing above and beyond what's going on in their courses um and and many of them will say to us well probably if I look at it that's that's the thing that got me the job it was it was that sort of hustle that I was doing um around the around the edges that that got me that networking contact or whatever it was and so so there's you know there's maybe an opportunity to kind of better integrate those efforts

and it's not to say that all those student-led initiatives aren't aren't wonderful and are building their own skills within students too right like learning how to how to do that is is building skills um but perhaps uh the the educational programs themselves need to take a little bit more onus or take a little bit more of that work off of students and and provide some of those those supports as well can I add something to that um and that oftentimes privileges those who have that extra time to go out and hustle because if we're talking about an equitable opportunity here people students who are providing personal care to you know maybe a family member or an elderly family member or students who are having to work two jobs just to afford food and electricity that's going to cut into their time to hustle and so oftentimes the people who can't Hustle are the people who don't necessarily need the hustle because they might have other strong Social Capital connections

and other opportunities um so yeah there's that element of equity that I think often goes overlooked in the how to you know spread out the opportunities for students great anyone else want to jump in on any of that stuff okay um so we're gonna go uh sort of to our uh last category here of of um q a or interventions from the panel um all these folks are here what what do you want people to leave with right so whether you're talking to students or whether you're talking to Studio leaders in the audience or government officials or or whoever else uh you know Community groups industry groups that might be out there um why is this an important topic why should we be talking about it now what what do you want the audience to leave with sure I can start um I like the the framing of the different sort of audiences so for students I would say you are doing enough you are doing amazing things keep

at it keep keep growing keep learning and you know reach for opportunities when you see them but you are you're not alone there are communities out there who can help you I'm here on behalf of igga of course I have to plug igda as a community and I can support and elevate your career and connect you to the global industry at large for developer or sorry for studios and education I would say like I mentioned you don't have to reinvent the wheel to implement inclusive policies or effective policies or mentorship models we are here as a resource for studios and education institutions as well and in fact we have many programs that support the resource development and dissemination in studios and education institutions through our academic and Studio affiliate programs so don't reinvent the wheel don't think you have to do everything on your own and you have to do everything tonight but be intentional about what is important what what gaps are in your

studio or education system that you need to fill to ensure the success of students and to ensure their attention of their employment in this industry because that is what this industry is going to rely on I'll do my one small plug again so for students definitely look for resources there are people who are there to help and support you like the igda foundation we have so many programs that uh you know out there to help students to help people transitioning into games from other Industries and for folks who are looking to grow into leadership roles definitely look for programs like that because they're going to have resources connections opportunities available to you that can help make sure that you feel supported and help you stay aligned with your values and then another this is a very tangible takeaway and it isn't going to solve everything overnight and it's definitely just one little piece of the puzzle but for those of you that are involved in studio leadership and or education I recommend reaching out and having some kind of professional advisory committee so maybe if you're in

a studio leadership role you are one of several people helping advise a university on what your expectations are while also learning about what universities can actually provide and then making sure that you have student on that board to help give their perspective and their voice to and make it a conversation make it something where you're asking questions of one another and getting a better understanding because it's that conversation that's going to spark change and help you with those first steps to creating a better environment for your Junior Developers um I would say a takeaway for this students out there keep speaking up uh the data that we've seen today is quite telling keep participating in those studies because any Studio manager in the room that sees this data is going to be at least feeling some feelings like I've felt today uh but it's it's quite telling and it's I think the first step into action seeing noticing it and kind of seeing it in such a clear way is

going to help the industry shift a bit and staying healthy and thriving um for any you know hiring managers out here or any Studio leadership can we remove the term not a fit from the interview process I think when it comes to diversity inclusion belonging and kind of creating that trust this not a fit kind of expression is full of biases and can you know interfere with wanting more Diversified backgrounds in within a team so the good news is is that you there's training for that um and it's any Studio has been responsibility to kind of create that awareness and initiate that conversation and you know we were talking about trust a lot earlier so I think rebuilding that trust kind of goes towards those small initiatives and those communication channels that I mean they're not broken but they've been um challenged uh in the last few years so I think those small initiatives at

their scale is um is kind of a a good move forward and um any Indie Studio owner in the room I think this one of the strains that you have at your scale is agility you can adapt you can turn around quickly so integrating those practices from the very early stages of your studio is is an amazing step towards um having a great game if we're thinking about um you know Junior game developers they get in the door maybe they're you're trying to keep them a little bit beyond the the one to three year time Horizon um you know what are some tips maybe that that Studios could do to try to retain those those workers especially if maybe they've they've come in with a slightly different expectation of of what the industry is like um then they they arrive and and here they are they're swimming a little bit um do you guys have any sort of takeaways or tips on on that that front

actually mentioned this a little bit Empower your people managers they should not just be you know critiquing technical skills they should be thinking about them as humans and asking them questions about long-term growth even if that long-term growth isn't actually at that company and I think that relationship will help go a long long way with retention because they're going to be excited that someone cares about them and they're going to want to stick with you for a little bit and even if they don't they're going to go on to their next workplace feeling more empowered because they know somebody was on their side um one expression that I like recently and that I've read about quite a lot um is radical transparency um being transparent through your you know business practices overall will have a huge impact on building that trust towards teams and that transparency can be applied in many different ways transparency and clarification on Mission Vision Values

and how decisions are made um in a very transparent way transparency in policies and you know salaries and Global compensation I think people should be hired for their skills and not their ability to negotiate that's another key having a very transparent and coherent salary structure so that people again feel uh trust towards the employer Talent Development transparency into how it is to evolve in another organization how we can move from one position to another and how you know what is invested in in a person in order for them to grow as a person but also to contribute to a project so I think that you know Global and radical transparency is uh is a nice key to kind of create that trust in that Bond and retain people so that they feel involved and um and and adhere to the values of the organization

both of those are amazing and so my my addition to that is create a community where someone feels like they belong that's that's my biggest thing and I think that's something that um Community organizations do really well but take that element and bring it internally and if you don't know how to do that reach out to community organizations who can help you with that because if someone feels like they belong somewhere they're going to feel empowered they're going to feel like you care about them and they're not going to want to leave because they feel like a professional home you know I don't want to blur the lines between like personal professional but really it is a sense of belonging professional belonging and you can do that through inclusive communities at your workplace but really Empower those communities don't don't just have communities to have communities Empower them let them make decisions or let them be at the decision-making table when we're talking about workplace culture or when we're talking about adopting new policies and processes for the studio empowerment empowerment empowerment yeah so that's

why I love what you'll said awesome um we wanted to leave you know sufficient opportunity for questions answers further discussion with the panel so if anyone has uh questions feel free to come to the mics foreign awesome let's start yeah at this mic hi um so this talk has been primarily focused around Educators and Developers um if diverse Studios that develop Junior Talent um are better they're more robust they're more likely to succeed or create a better environment um why are Publishers not creating meaningful incentives in which developers they take I've never heard of a publisher paying more or taking a smaller cut for Studios that are more diverse or have more Junior Talent um it seems like they're asking the developer to take on all the short-term risk in a project cycle business when

increased headcount and Burden rate generally makes a publisher less willing to fund your project is the responsibility all on the developers or is there more that Publishers can be doing great thanks for that question and so I'm just repeat it um for the for the recording you got it oh amazing because that was a long complicated question I was gonna struggle there so excellent there over to you so you know in a nutshell like where are the Publishers here where where who are ultimately the funders in in a lot of these environments yeah have an idea that did you have I was just going to say I definitely know some Publishers that prioritize Studios and projects who encapsulate that value of inclusion however that's a great point and I think there should certainly be more that Publishers do and we add Publishers to the equation into the retention aspect to do that however I would also want to say that Studios should still retain it should fall on the studio in the sense that they are ultimately responsible for

the the company the their inclusive policies and so yeah I love that question but yeah I've definitely seen that in practice in some aspects but not widespread agreed um on my end I mean one area of solution would be government instances um there I mean I'm from Canada so there's there's different things that are put in place when it comes to tax credits for research and development and training and development as well um the US has has some a little bit of that as well but I think to kind of better support Studios and encourage them to kind of invest into this uh this upcoming Workforce and and and onboarding and all those initiatives could be a good area of solution so I would you know and investigate and kind of explore that a little bit more we we can do better for sure but yeah I mean I think it's important to call out right that the the structure of the industry and and the way the industry is is arranged we would sort of

call it the the political economy of the game industry is based on a Model where funders are essentially squeezing developers right get things done in a shorter time with less budget and those things aren't particularly conducive then to Bringing on and developing Talent over over a longer um a longer pipeline so definitely this is a conversation that implicates the entire ecosystem of the industry which of course makes it a very challenging thing to solve and address but um but yeah very very important there yeah yeah thank you kind of the spiritual polar opposite to that question actually for devs on the ground like us for someone like me a producer right who's transitioning to mid-level for someone who wants to be a hiring manager who's planning to advance their career in in the direction of mentorship in the direction of inclusion what advice do you have for devs like us to Advocate to our bosses to our hiring

managers to our Publishers our companies to make room for those Junior devs in spaces where we don't necessarily have institutional power to do so who wants to grab that was three of you to go okay and this is a big one and one that I think is asked a lot and there's no one perfect one size fits-all answer I think there's a couple of ways that you can approach this um I'm going to speak from a production perspective because that is my background but what I like to do is look at the project as a whole and identify opportunities that we can advocate for hiring someone who is maybe specifically more junior or advocating for processes within the company that benefit people who maybe are newer to the industry I mean I think as producers and as people who um are are guardians of process like making sure that we are adhering to those processes to make it I'm trying to find the words here but basically making

sure that we are setting people up to succeed we're empowering them through those processes and advocating for process change when that does not work I think that some leadership folks are going to want data which is really hard to get sometimes but finding opportunity to present facts and figures and there's organizations that can actually help like I think the foundation or not Foundation I'm sorry the igda actually has papers and whatnot that can you you can bring to them um uh as data for hey you know if we hire folks um from X Y and Z we're presenting like these opportunities and it's going to benefit benefit us in these ways and the one last thing I will say about that because I think these folks may have some maybe more tangible instances is making sure that you are cultivating a space with the folks that you already have of psychological safety because you cannot bring people in to a company and expect them to succeed if the psychological safety is not there so maybe that's the

main piece of advice I have is especially as a production person especially trying to go into management is really focusing on that psychological safety piece you don't have to deliberately tell people that you're doing that either you can establish practices that that you know that help you and help folks kind of feel safer right so making sure everyone's heard of that retro right and that's going to be your first big step to getting people on board um some things I mean I guess more on the production side a more tangible way I've seen Studios implementing something called absorption absorption rates that means for the amount of senior talent and mentors that you have how many Juniors with data can we absorb so that it doesn't have too much of an impact on the production on the short-term perspective having that ratio and talking with data and and Excel documents um might be a good way to kind of scientifically evaluate the

the impact of of Junior talent in in a production but just the fact that you're aware of that today asking that question is an amazing just first step into bringing in the idea within your studio excellent very helpful thank you probably I would just also add like you don't have to do this work alone right so if you're not feeling individually empowered um just start talking with your co-workers right form a little group over lunch uh it doesn't have to be official at the start but collect people to your cause talk more about it and then you can you know you can go to your boss as a group down the road right so it takes time and and and don't don't do it by yourself yeah so I'm a high school student and I was wondering like as a person who's like trying to go into this industry and stuff uh you talked about soft skills earlier and I was trying to figure out how did you I guess uh portray those to when you're like in the middle of an interview or something because like I know they're going to be looking for them but how do you when you're just

being asked a bunch of questions portray that you have good communication skills yeah great question and awesome that you're here I think one quality that we're looking for as we're interviewing candidates that has a repercussion on all of the other qualities is uh humility and ability to receive feedback on a project I've seen assets being at version number 84. that means that someone was told 83 times to kind of redo the work so the ability to kind of always question yourself receive feedback and adapt in a certain direction even if you don't agree is one of the things that we will look first in an interview process just because if you if you can't receive feedback you you you will have a really hard time in this industry because it's all about iterations and new versions so that that first aspect if you are able to kind of have some introspection receive feedback adapt realign

um and then come back with with some new work is is kind of one of the first qualities we're looking for that will lead to empathy and listening and communication and and all that good stuff so that's a good first step this is kind of falling into that too being able to deal with conflict resolution which is a tough one that you learn your entire life but kind of that goes with the feedback but being able to communicate a time when you and someone else were not able to agree on something and how you resolve that is huge because that's going to happen no matter where you are at your stage of your career and that's something that we really love when we're hiring junior level Talent is just like you said that awareness right and and knowing that in game development there is inherently conflict built into some of the roles and so being able to navigate that is really really helpful and and you can just demonstrate that by answering a question because they'll ask you about like what's the time you failed and then just in responding

honestly about the steps you took and what you learned can go a long way and I would add real quick to that it's it's not about performing this heart or the soft skills it's about or articulating through the story that you tell them as as we just mentioned so it's all about storytelling we're creative industry if you can tell a story about the skills that is how you articulate thank you that was very helpful okay we'll go over here please hello I'm part of a group who graduated a year ago I'm one of the lucky few who got a job and I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I do enjoy my job and I'm treated well I can name about 10 15 people who I know who I'm biased because they're my friends but arguably had some of the strongest portfolios coming out of school who also did get a job but that first job experience has turned into a how can

we get the most out of this person because we really only need like six months eight months a year of work out of them so we're really going to get what we can and I'm wondering these these people are at the point where they're ready to like leave the industry already they've graduated with almost 200 Grand in student loans and their first experience has just devastated them so thoroughly that these amazing artists are ready to just get on out to completely abandon adjacent Industries and when I'm in the position I am oh not all employers are like that you know just apply to other jobs and they're like but there are no other jobs and I'm flipping the coin because you don't know until you're in there so I was wondering if you have any advice for someone like me how can I help keep my friends in this industry because this industry needs people like them they're good people thank you

I was just gonna say there is a lot of trauma in our work experiences and we we sometimes need a break that break doesn't necessarily have to be a break from the industry but maybe just a break from the particular Studio sometimes we need the real we need to live the reality of a good work culture to believe it exists and that's where the disconnection stems from so it is hard to say like they can do X Y and Z but I would personally say if you can find the them if you can find ways to help them focus on the best aspects of their experiences and realize that yes there are in fact ways they can be fulfilled at another company most likely and and if that takes a break from that role into another role and then back to that role that that could be something as well um that's really really difficult um and we see it a lot um a couple of things I recommend and I'm

borrowing this from a friend please remind them success is not linear and you're gonna Meander through this industry and you're going to be in places that are kind of games and kind of not games and jobs you love and you don't love and and also help them get to know others in the industry and in the community that can support them I'm stealing from you um it doesn't have to just be artist although it sounds like that would be super helpful but just hearing from other people can be really really empowering and they'll find that the more people they encounter they'll be folks who really want to support them and maybe they can help and provide resources to get them to a better place too don't feel like you need to shoulder the burden by yourself I know it's so so hard right but just being there for them and giving them the opportunity and pointing them in the right direction is so so powerful okay um I think we have about two more minutes left in the session I know there's lots of people with questions so

I do just want to say that we will all move over to I think it's room 204 after this so if your question didn't get asked please do come on over there and we can carry on with this conversation um but I think we probably have we can sneak in another one at least so uh so let me see how to word this I'm looking for advice for like if you are in a conversation where you're talking to somebody who's above you and you feel like there's a person that the company is failing that they're not going far enough to support that person and the person that you're speaking to is taking the opposite stance at like actually we've really gone out of our way to support that person and they're they're failing out of our actually very good support structure but also that was somebody who was fired so we can't actually give you any of the particularly so why we believe what our stance is how do you deal with that we're like I'm

trying to figure out what's really going on but I actually can't for legal reasons the reasons that are good but um it's also like I don't know I'm being told that this person was given the support that you're talking about that it's not Apparent from my point of view it's that's a good question I would say elements of that um if you can identify patterns in his like in his history of that studio then it's likely um you will find your answer in the patterns uh but if it's a one-off then that that is more difficult and that probably extends out of out of our scope here but I would say I'll ask questions um look into things ask questions that you can with your with your friend with your studio with others hey have you experienced support or how have you been supported in your role what are other opportunities of support that you've received things like that you might be able to come to a conclusion with that sort of evidence

yeah every situation like this is quite unique and there's so many factors that can influence kind of a decision from a manager or HR or whoever but um yeah what you said is is definitely right let's see if there's patterns and then um or is this an isolated case but this it's quite a complex question that I would have like a thousand follow-up questions for you so okay thank you um so we are at time and I just want to thank all of you for coming thank you so much to this great panel [Applause] [Music]