What happens to the UK games industry after Brexit?

[Music] I think it's fair to say that the specific three of brexit is still filed under TBD have a chair ergo on pre-printed she I'll sit with them I'll sit with these I lower myself that's fine owing the possibility that Teresa maybe comes up with some incredible unifying plan today we shall mark at home a breath for we just don't know exactly what full breaks is can happen or if it is you can happen at all so taking time to kind of consider each of those books we take more far longer we've got Stephanie at 20 minutes but what we can what we can talk about is what could happen and what how you can kind protect

yourself against it so to kick things off what's the next most again he's finding it you'll find it all right I'm going to sit down here so it's kick things off I I'd like you guys to quickly introduce yourself and and tell me sort of briefly what you believe is likely to happen what's the most likely outcome or the one on the panel okay fair enough fair and what you think is the most likely outcome for bricks it as it stands do a start out or you can Mike on there we go hello there we go that's it better hi my name is jazz pure well I'm an interactive entertainment lawyer at puroland partners and for the last many many months have been spending several a reading thinking and talking about brexit and oceans for the interactive entertainment industry I'm given what I'm about to say about my thoughts about Webroot it's gonna go I should also say

full disclosure that I'm a co-founder of games for EU which is a grassroots political campaigning group from within interactive entertainment which is fighting for a Pro remain voice within interactive entertainment and wider politics but that's just my personal view and most what I'll be talking about is talking about where briggsie is are than necessarily where we would like it to be going forward so having said that you have asked me whatever it's gonna go what do you think's gonna go so clearly we're any constitutional process when a political crisis right there is no majority for any route for the government's brexit Deal was voted down by 230 votes last week the government has until January 21st to be king a proposal actually is meant to be making properly but I've just heard from what Craig was saying that's not going to happen surprise right so by the end of the month he'll have to be a plan B put forward by the government but it doesn't seem likely that there is going to be

one so all the indications are the Parliament takes control SC way and then they'll be between two to three options put forward for Parliament to vote upon and if they can't we'll end up probably in a second referendum Craig hi there um so Craig Fletcher originally founded multi-play now a games industry investor advisor but on my other hat for full disclosure I'm also political candidate sighs I'm a member of the Lib Dems I've stood for election a couple of times and we're the only party that's adamantly campaigned for remaining in the EU and still are the only party has been for that what what do I think is likely to happen well echoing a lot of what jazz has just said I think I was on a call with Tom break last week and it sounds we very much believe that there is no majority in the Commons for any way forward so I think we're just gonna see a very messy continued mishandling by miss Mae and we'll see where we end up but I think the chances of a new

recommend referendum about 50/50 about now so it's a very good chubbier and a people's vote as it's commonly known I think that's probably the only way to to remove the deadlock and hopefully we'll be able to reverse course out of this okay let's disaster another mic please one more my mic here we go hello hi yeah I'm not a politician or a lawyer so I I'm I'm a CEO bulk interactive and about five years ago we start studio making bad first-person puzzlers on Xbox one and then after five years we've made a couple of games now and they've all kind of they've always been a little bit successful and I decided after brexit be increased rated decided to open a studio in Munich I didn't really we we're from Derby which is one of the highest places in the UK for voting button leave so it's

incredibly frustrating to be a game developer there and it's in Munich we almost started paying off and we managed to hire Europeans and that was just like working straight away so we're really coming on like what I think is gonna happen because I think both your answers bore down to you we don't know the second referendum would be a really good idea which is kind of what I feel that everyone in the room kind of agrees but um you know right now there are very real issues that we're experiencing as British people living in Europe and trying to open more stairs and all we're trying to remain incredibly proud British developers but yeah as in what's gonna happen we don't know don't know okay fair enough so possibly people's vote constitutional crisis don't know that's fine um so guys I've got is is even if we did just been directly Stace like tweezing me wait up as she on board of this won't do something else go to that um and and we

just stopped it and we had people's vote whatever how do we done damage we've all you've already seen investors scuffle or moving money elsewhere there's been there's definitely been a culture of color has to hostility towards foreign foreigners coming to the country one way or another do you think we've already done damage and have we seen damage from the games industry as yes Pacific Lee from decision I have as a direct example of so we'd only just left on the studio and we were we were hiring this great new before he ended up we were gonna hurt him we're often driving just to him he said guys I'm gonna pull out breakfast to answer and I don't and most infamous tree and we just happen to say well we've got this so in sort of three months Jen they just paid off but that was just right at the start so I'm

terrified of what's gonna happen later yeah so yeah it is very affecting honor so you've seen on a practical level already from a recruitment perspective its impact see I mean I mean Craig which as have you heard or seen of any specific example similar to that or yeah not specific apples nothing all right now but I've certainly heard it and not just in the games industry obviously by the game industry but it's a wider issue in in general I mean you can you tell by the NHS I mean the levels of nurses coming to the UK is a time load every and the thing is I've spoken to quite a few businesses that are really worried especially businesses that I think the highest when I had was eighty percent non UK staff sure and because we rely very heavily on highly skilled very mobile labor that will up sticks and move to Canada just as much as move to Germany and that that's that's a real problem uncertainty breeds this problem I do think if we were to revoke article 50 tomorrow a lot of damage has been done not just to the people wanting to come and work here but to the credibility of

the UK as a you know stable a stable place to come work and do business and investment impacted it has been impacted I mean if we found it easier to raise money for companies in the Netherlands than we have some of our okay yes companies because there's no uncertainty there uncertainty is the biggest thing investment yeah yeah let me try just with some of the positive fundamentals before talk about where we think stand right now so the games industry in the UK has still a number of fun mental resilience it has the English language it has talent it has the size of its local market it has its historical ties and they all give it about being a bridge between the US and the EU it's generated a lot of success and so it's still likely to be a plain one to come to work particularly still from an international perspective the UK's done really well to bring international businesses to the UK but

the problem is is that at least part of that was because of the UK's close links to the EU though the UK's sort of this sort of fuzzy feeling around the world that we're stable and more sensible and we get on with things and we have the rule of law and I wouldn't underestimate how our sort of that fuzzy feeling about the influences a lot of decisions over time and that's taken a knock so a combination of the uncertainty not knowing if we'll still be in the EU has implications and this feeling that maybe we're not the investable country that people thought we were and a knock now there are still investments happening there are still things happening but it gets harder so for example a number of IPOs have been put off in the UK of gaming companies because our brexit and those companies which have floated been raised have been having more questions about their resilience and the impact on the stock price if there's a crash out

brigs it so we are seeing impact and one of the problems we've got in the games industry is a lack of data and had any real surveys or any real analysis done but anecdotally it is harder to bring people across if you're if you're a successful monetization experts for free-to-play games and you've got your pick of choices of Europe gaming companies why would you come to the UK if it's not absolutely certain your family can still live here next year it's a problem yeah um okay I will come on to talent in a second because I think we've - my solutions are hedging here but before in the interests of balance you know on question time think of me as your Fiona Bruce if you will is it all is it just not as pretty or is it yeah a common feature locally a thicker Fiona Bruce that's what we're going for thank you um but it all make it to you by me Arthur are there any upsides you know if even a lot of promises from from very respectable gentlemen and ladies about what how amazing it's going to be either

could there be any upsides from from brexit if it does go ahead would the be anything is it like from if people talk about like Wemmick's ears with it is there anything conceivable that we can see is there could be right so the arguments that are put forward is that the UK would become more focused on free trade which means focusing with the developing countries it means more trade for example with with India with the US and in fairness those are countries which are seeing economic booms right now and if you look at for example say what the things one hears about on say Pocket Gamer right now there's a lot of interest in India there's known of interest in China so you can see how the odd made forward that we could have more privileged links with those countries going forward that's one argument I'm going to try to avoid knocking down the arguments I've just put forward but that's a no yes I'm just interested about another one another one that was put forward 2016 before the referendum was video games tax relief the argument that video games tax relief in the UK which applies to all different games

companies regardless of platform that's restricted by EU rules so the reason right the reason that it's at the level that it's at is you won't allow it to go higher so one of the arguments before in industry was without the EU controls any more could video games tax relief go higher and the significance of that is it's basically a subsidy of getting two games production so more games could be made more cheaply in the without EU state aid rules I'm not endorsing I those arguments but of the arguments that I heard those were the most convincing to make briggsie a success okay yeah that was the one I was gonna go with was you've removed the de minimis state aid limit and suddenly you become a Canada and Europe for video games development is that an option yeah and does that counteract all the other cancer plus so just just to keep skip on so I think we've saw that that is possible if it you know it's not gonna be over goes there but but but also in the situation we are now and then possibility does go ahead I think how

our company's kind of protect themselves in all of us so if you were talent recruitment is clearly as you say talent is the heart of this industry we need skills to people how can a UK company kind of hedge or protect against this use obviously you've Sapir you know you've done it you surpassed you'd over sit and that's work for you is that what more companies should be doing I mean it's got to be specific to every single for us where we were sold 30 25 year-olds and I didn't want to live in Darby anymore and so I was like I'm going to Munich yeah it's so it's you know it was about living in a nice place and we figured that okay well if we had a challenge to get talent we had to live in a really nice place to say hey if you come to us you can go skiing or whatever on the weekend yeah so that was the main reason but um there are benefits and so one thing that we're seeing now as a benefit is like having accounting rose and just it with with with sort of

realizing for the first time that working in pounds is is it's quite difficult when you're working with big numbers it's it's very it is really difficult like we're trying to decide our salaries the other day and I was like can we just at 3 p.m. because it's 3 pounds higher and like it was it was it's really difficult but in terms of you should other I don't think there's any negatives in trying it my advice was just um to speak I thought the the German haunted cities states have as much better we have games Bavaria Munich which does in might be all the new key but on you Mike's yeah Mike yeah okay is there anything specific that specific certainly advising companies about this very specific it's hard to make generalizations because if a company's got 100 percent UK workforce it's like well you probably want more looking at

hedging the currency risk than anything else forward contracts things like that in terms of hedging moving forward but review countries offering some quite interesting deals to in to tech businesses over I've heard that Portugal's offering Portugal citizenship to tech businesses moving over there for example what the rules are about that but some but your was diverse problem is if you move your UK workforce over to Munich there's no guarantee you can stay in the event of a no deal brexit for example you've got the reverse issue that we have in the UK so I think no one wants to see a no deal BRICS it because it's just a nightmare for everyone involved it on that we have been moving a lot of our UK staff and that's a very real issue for things like my driving licence as soon as breaks Adams becomes just invalid it says well so what I did was actually going didn't I just went and got a German European one so I'm gonna be much grey area where I've got a European license I shouldn't have but it's a German one I'll say a few things

so take your own legal advice bla bla bla bla as well as what these guys are saying about specific to your in circumstances peaking with the games for you voice because we're explicitly Pro remain we don't want to see you know deal breaks it but if you are gonna see you know deal breaks it you need to think about having an EU presence and you need to think about it now you need to think about setting up an office because if there is a no deal brexit you're obliged to teethe remember state you're obliged to have a local representative for dates protection reasons you're obliged almost certainly to start running your servers through European members European Union member state because otherwise the hassle you'll be involved will be nightmarish pony up for spending on lawyers and believe you me we don't want the money we don't want but you'd bit more seriously with with only a couple of months left if there isn't any an extension of article if we are looking at Odile Briggs erred most companies need to get into contingency planning is the multinationals will be okay because

most of the time they structure their arrangements to not to be dependent upon any one country right now but if you're a UK day up again gamedev of any size you need start thinking about someone with your accounts and sort with your lawyer and almost certainly have to have a local office set up and I take no pleasure in saying that okay we haven't because it's a really this is a speed panel this is obviously if base gone for hours and hours but I've got a couple of questions but as you got about four or five minutes left I thought I would throw anybody's got at any any questions or opinions I don't we've got any progress stirs your frita you're allowed to stay it's alright it's fine but it anyway anybody have a question they'd like to ask or or pose on the issue of brexit wherever you're from you happy from there's a hand there I can't quite see microphones coming yes sorry this is this massive showing light in my eyes hi there and my name is Vicky Potts from white pod Studios I'm based in Belfast I was wondering if you guys have any opinions or ideas on hybrids that would have an Irish gaming companies I think they don't know they don't know down the road let no one know pretty

much all the same situation cause Northern Ireland's part the UK so it can it all will be very similar to what we've just said to you listen very specific issues to talk about like the border and how all trade happen and it hard breaks it what happens do we go back to having checkpoints and things like that affect you personally over there we obviously no one wants to see that happening but they see everything for you in Northern Ireland I think there's a particular oh I'll venture one opinion which is you may actually end up being one of the most fortunate people in the room because on the basis that there is some form of resolution with the European Union we don't know what almost certainly that's gonna involve what's known as op and the backstop is basically shorthand for Northern Ireland remains in aspects of the European Union and the rest of the UK does not so actually from a continuity perspective your business may be better insulated than other businesses and actually one of the things I've just begun hearing about is a couple of videos from the main art from Great Britain talking about setting up in Belfast rather than then setting up in Belgium say for that

reason but it's still not something your business can really Bank upon because if there's a no deal brexit the Northern Ireland is impacted harder than anybody else okay fair enough good question okay we are gonna have to is any other questions I can't slightest blimey fine I'm just going to the last point I'm gonna have to hand over a separate panel I want to kind of go back to the initial introduction and and and so obviously at a moment you know Forex is up in the up in the area it's not a done deal and and and we have an opportunity to exert influence and and and bring our views to bear so jazz are now especially for you but I'm the others involved as well what can the games industry doesn't want to cibrex to do about it what can they actively do you know now to help help the crusade or the battle against against this this so for the games industry one of our great strengths and one of our great weaknesses is that we haven't cared about politics so whether you're in the audience and you are Pro grexit or you are anti Briggs at whichever it may be this whole process is showing that we

haven't had a voice fishery's despite the fact that our industry is two or three times bigger than fisheries fisheries is dominating the debate automotive in the bay in the way that the interactive entertainment industry and the creative industries have not so first and foremost make your view heard right to your MP right to your industry associations even if you are non UK national and you care about Briggs that you should still be writing and making your voice heard that's a point I'll say on a neutral basis now if like me and this is just my personal view you happen to be and he breaks it there's more you can be doing all of those things be writing about Briggs it write articles come and talk to me come and talk to George from games for you about how you can help specifically Montaigne industry but like I said whether you are for or against the impacts our industry in this country too much to not be involved so do that one thing do that one thing which is more than social media that asserts your voice and you'd be surprised if a knife-edge we're going to come to the next two or three weeks where every vote in parliament matters and all of them regardless of what they

say they are listening to what people say to them okay so I think on that note although it was it was short but it was very impactful I'm sure you can talk to jazz you can talk to it to Craig and an empty talk to Jose by his experiences our face it sounds like he's cleverly positioned to themselves to deal with all this but give a round of applause please for my my panel [Music]