ustwo games’ María Sayans On The Sustainable Strategy Behind The Monumental Game: Monument Valley

[Music] hello world welcome to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and this week as always the delightfully desk bound Miss Peggy and salts hello Peggy a pleasure as always delightfully desk bound I will be that for a little while still so I'm enjoying it um also enjoying just being able to do some shows with you in a row because uh uh over at Pocket Gamer we're still sharing some of the interviews I did during Ma and elsewhere with our guests but hey it's solo and solo isn't as much fun Brian this is very true but so you know what you go out there you attend all of these fantastic events and you bring back some of the very best guests and this week is no exception because uh this week I think we have something quite special we have Maria Cen she has 20 years in the games industry so it's going to be a show of pure gold

experience advice but in addition of course more importantly for us at the helm of us two games for the last five years and you know me the pun Patrol will get me someday Brian but it is Monumental a Monumental pleasure to have Maria pun intended because we're talking about the phenomenal success of Monument Valley so Maria here you are in our group what could be a better way to spend your morning right thank you it's a pleasure to be here and uh um I love uh I love puns I wish I could make puns even Bud pants it's uh kind of one of my uh development goals in life I'm a I'm a huge fan of us to and I'm I'm thrilled and delighted to to have you here because the studio is is one of the one of those that that really are doing something different with games you're you're creating titles that really touch people's hearts what does this tell us what what the the thinking behind the

company and what does this tell us about what games can be this is something that we ask ourselves very often and it's not like the company was born knowing exactly what it was going to make I think you know long before I joined the company the intention was you know to do things that challenged the medium things that pushed what games could be and I think that through making Monument Valley and uh other games later on like uh lend Alba Wild Life Adventure assembled with care Testa we we've kind of refined that understanding of um what from our perspective games can be we know games are fun but we know games can be so much more than fun um and we think about what are these Peak experiences of gaming right like when games make you feel powerful or make you feel you fall in love with another with a character or with another player uh um games create powerful memories they keep give you

moments of insight in and so we think about what are these Peak experiences and how can you package them in the most kind of compact and beautiful and uh uh accessible way possible and um and you know when I joined the company about five years ago probably uh the team was in the space of what's the difficult second album right the idea of like we've been they were so successful out of the gate with uh Monument Valley that it puts you into a a position that is in a way quite challenging will we ever do anything that's as good as that will we ever do anything that's different from that uh who are we if we are not that so on the one side we had like this desire to push ourselves but also the privilege of sitting on you know on the back of a very successful game um with a reputation but also with a very healthy financial position to be able to to take risks and do the games that um that we

want to make and um think our games always come from a very personal place and it's one of our um our pillars our product pillars is that they are made by people now when we named that pillar we were not thinking of AI um we were just thinking about uh the fact that they come from a personal place as opposed to um um as opposed to just a market research that identifies a uh a space in the market to be filled um but it comes from personal inspiration uh who knows eventually the fact that they made by people will come to uh be a differentiator in other ways um yeah but that's that's definitely a theme that's going uh through all of our Gams but we don't stop there um U we we then very quickly turn the the spotlight onto the player and we say okay this thing that comes from a very personal

Place how is it Universal how is it something that uh connects with many many people um and I part of that comes from our background um the origin of the company is in a client services business so from the very beginning uh as as game makers and the team had a very strong focus on um um on player stories and um on usability and uh first player experience um and testing and that and I think that that's something that in a way differentiates us from other um Indie companies that yes it comes from a very personal place but very quickly we put the spotlight onto the player uh and uh with the aspiration that this very personal thing is actually Universal is actually um and we can turn it into something that millions of people can enjoy it's clear that you've been successful but you know know you've told

us that a big part of your career has been trying to live up to Majestics promise it's obviously a game that impacted you personally and professionally do you feel that you've yet achieved what you set out to do um well I started in the industry in 2001 and uh this game Majestic was coming out um at that time and I don't think I don't think a lot of people remember this game um it was this idea of the game that plays you um it was the first kind of really trans media game you bought it as you played as a PC game came in a box but the minute you started playing it was connecting you to real websites and fake websites it was sending you emails he was making phone calls um it was connecting you to a cohort of other players as you Tred to figure out the um Mysteries of the game and solve the game um in and I think it opened my eyes to the idea of games that really interacted with players in a in a very

deep and personalized way to the idea of what online communities could do um to what um um this fact that you were referring to earlier that most of the game is actually happening in your head uh and not on the screen um and um and so it's been a reference for me um in terms of well in terms of you know I'm not a game designer myself but in terms of my ambition of and my my sort of my hopes what the what the industry could do and what games could become I think that and in answer to your question you know has uh I think to have have to answer it as an industry have we actually lived up to that I think we've lived up to that and more um and uh when I look back to 2001 and uh and and you know there were some amazing games back then but the diversity of

experiences the um the depth of Engagement that a game can have with a player and with a community it's uh it's I could not have imagined it and we probably could not have imagined that we would be looking at Monument Valley's 10th anniversary that is amazing it's a cultural phenomenon and you are about making as you said yourself these these games that are from the heart they're uplifting but the audience the audience has changed over that time what have you noticed to be the biggest changes or shifts in the audience in the last 10 years well just massively grown the number of people that play games um and um and it's become much more um you know much more diverse uh I think that when monent Valley came out uh it was void and supported by um by the power of of um

what you know what the App Store could do at the time and uh and what Apple support could do at the time and it reached an amazing um breath of audience but not most but most games didn't um and um but what we saw and I think maybe there Monument Valley was a um a sign of things to come was that uh it was already um much more diverse in terms of age you know people of all ages played Monument Valley um you know the typical gamer but also their you know young sibling or their child and their mom and their grandmother um and um it's something that you know we always hear about parents playing it with children and now we're hearing young adults saying oh I remember playing this as one of my first games

um and this being the only game I was allowed to play on the iPad when I was a kid I think from the very beginning the Monument Valley audience was very diverse but if I look at how that has translated outside of the industry and to other games that we play you can see that there is a much more much better gender balance there is a there's definitely an audience that is uh continuing to play games uh when in the past they might have aged out of games um and um you're seeing people coming into games particularly you saw that during covid that um people who may not have played games before were getting into gaming at the time and um so in terms of age and gender um it has become much more diverse and I've seen this kind of firsthand because when I was working at EA most of the titles that I was working on were very core uh with a very sort of traditional gamer audience I was working on the BioWare games um and that was quite in itself but I was

working on you know Dead Space um and um and and now what you see is a is a completely different audience and I think that's you know resulted and fed positively into a much more diverse offering different kinds of games um with very different Vibes and emotions and activities and ways of engaging so you know I I know it's hard to be so optimistic at this time in the industry but when you take the long-term view um it's it's really been a very positive uh Trend your strategy has played out over the 10 years you have been and stayed um very diverse and also very um very much involving the player we think about a lot right we go back to okay what is a true as to games game what are the core elements of that what type of games should we be making we have conversations about this very frequent ly um and I think throughout one of the

questions that we always ask ourselves is how do we change to stay the same how do we it's recognizing and it's the effort to recognize what's really cool about what you do about how you do it what's what are what's really important to you as a team as people and as game makers um and then how do you have to change to protect that because you can never do things the same way um you know when you're a team of eight people making Monument Valley to where we are now and we're like 45 people um we've obviously had to adapt but always with um with a view of what was that very important core that we wanted to protect interestingly because I'm a little bit of the data geek here in our show I'm always reading the reports you know what is it you know what does a what's a spender look like there's a report for Mis you know all about the profile of

the spender and there's another report out there talking about you know the demographics of players and it was interesting it suggested I won't say it is the last word but it was suggesting that uh guess what boomers are booming that's the group that's playing more than before and actually the younger demographic that everyone is focusing on when they build their games or at least you hear them talk about it is actually playing less because is of course short form video whatever else you know is competing for their time help me understand that from your perspective because that for me would spell opportunity and also some challenge how are you approaching that because of course Boomers that's an exciting opportunity there's a couple I I completely agree that um that those are important uh things to think about on the one side is younger people's time um being having more competition for um so I think there's there's a base of

um continued growth which is more people than ever are playing games um and um and even at a younger generation uh it is um it is more mainstream than than ever to to play games however you cannot take that for granted anymore because of you know so much competition for their attention um and particularly with short form video so you've got that right um and uh and then you've got kind of like an aging population particularly in Europe and North America uh over the next 10 20 years that's going to be one of the dominant kind of demographic H trends that we're going to have to to to reckon with um um and um and like I said earlier people are aging less out of gaming than they used to they're finding other ways to stay involved with gaming thanks to Mobile gaming that maybe takes less time thanks to Cozy games and

wholesome games that maybe respond to another way of uh playing as your taste evolve over time and uh again I mean Boomers to me it's you know H I'm thinking more like 45 and plus uh 45 plus women are one of the fastest growing if not the fastest growing segment in in in games um so when when you look at all of that together um we think about um some tastes that are evolving um and um a preference for kind of different types of experiences and uh and and this is why I think we're seeing uh such a increase in h holesome games and cozy games in our case we call this uplifting games um and I and I think it also connects with a younger audience uh it connects with a younger audience because um um genes are much more focused on and how do the values of this

company and how do the values of this game um you know reflect on you know or or or echo my own values and um and um and so they're much more thoughtful of the impact of um their consumption and the impact of their uh entertainment that they spend their time with so all of that together for us is you know you could look at these like as bits and pieces of micr trends but you could also take a step back and and look at it as something that says okay these cozy games and wholesome games that um have been perhaps like you know just very Indie um um they're they're about to become a much bigger um you know part of the industry over the coming years and you could argue you know hey Nintendo has been doing this for I don't know however many years uh The Sims has been doing this for however many years um but um but outside of that it hasn't been

recognized as uh an emotional need or um or a space that games really could uh nurture and expand and explore I I'm really interested in how the studio has changed over those 10 years um in terms of you know not necessarily it's view but how you approach games how you approach catering for those new audiences and the reality that the games can be on the market for in some cases more than a decade there's a very core um set of things that have stayed the same right um you know even just from the people right out of the eight original people that made Monument Valley six are still with the company um and uh not necessarily working on Monument Valley themselves they're kind of on on on other teams but that is kind of a big part of of of our culture of how we operate we the values have stayed

very much the same but as you grow as we've grown uh perhaps this have to be more effort on codifying those values uh and building structures around them um something like uh we became a borp uh we got certified as a borp um originally maybe four years ago I think it was and then again we recertified a couple of years ago as a as an independent company when we um split from from uh from the group that we were part of before um becoming a b Corp uh was a conscious effort to to commit to a set of values to commit to having using our business for positive impact on people um and and on planet to holding profit at the same level as consideration as people on planet um and um and it's something that became more important as part of the company growing um having like a shared that allowed us to

have like a shared um like a shared language and and and commitment between our shareholders the management team and and the employees and something that results in trust in better communication it comes with a lot of accountability a lot of uh transparency um and uh so I think that's one of the ways in which we have changes we have grown uh putting more thought into the takes the things that you take for granted as when you're a small team how do you kind of protect them and codify them uh and continue to nurture them as you grow we've gone from being a one team one game company to now having three teams in parallel and that's been very much about growth but a growth that was resilient and sustainable so that we could navigate the ups and downs of game development um more thoughtfully um and um you know sometimes the Temptation is put

everybody into one game and make it as big as possible um and we've kind of shied away from that and said okay no our games are games that can be made Maybe by a maximum peak of 20 people at Peak team size in maybe a maximum of two and a half years um rather than say and and that's kind of the shape um and and in and then work with teams to kind of take the pass on the Boton kind of like so people can move on from Project to project and you don't find yourself um uh so much dependent on the success of one single project so that's another way in which we've changed um we've brought in a people um to the company that have brought sort of expertise in other areas um and uh from you know working in other companies so we've um strengthened our our management team uh whether whether it's in production or gain

Direction um and um um yeah but in general I would say it it's something that we're very thoughtful about this balance of you know sort of sustainable growth versus um um yeah versus sort of maintaining the core of what we do I I'm intensely curious um if Monument Valley was coming out today do you think it would get the same kind of success or what we'd have to change whether it's business model or marketing you know what would you do differently I guess to to if you were bringing the game out in 2024 super hard question to answer right because obviously a game is a product of its time um and um but definitely the business model would be Unthinkable you know launching a a premium game on the app store today uh and expecting that it will reach a massive audience um if is uh just not the way things are working

so we would be thinking about the in like like we are thinking we're thinking about Monument Valley as a forever franchise we're thinking about it as a cross uh multiplatform franchise um we're partnering with um the uh distribution partners and platform partners that can help us reach that audience and we would be thinking more also about like um about um how the game engages um over time right the original Monument Valley was a game that you can play in an hour and a half um and it's beautiful and perfect but then it's done and um in and and that in today's uh world is a really difficult concept to um to reach not not that everything needs to be a game as a service not that everything needs to be sort of H chasing kind of the the free-to-play um uh structures of retention and

monetization um but but it's uh but given how distribution works and how business models work um and how awareness and Discovery work um uh streamers and influencers and Tik tokers um it's you have to provide more to engage uh a player to reach a broader uh audience it is fun to reflect on just how far the sector has come but how the core of the game you know the design can remain the same but it's all of the other challenges facing a studio around the outside as you've just said it it can be you know the same game the same experience for players but how you would have to approach it in this day and age is is just um almost the opposite of uh We've created something perfect and Jew like let's just put it out and see what people think so so I don't think it's a it's a

dirty word or it's a you know it's it's to think okay how is this game going to reach people how is it going to engage them how um how are people going to find out about it these are all things that you have to consider as you're building the game and um and and having worked with creative teams for you know over 20 years now I think that the best creative teams relish those challenges because because it the more that like you're defining boundaries and you're defining kind of the the the the nature of the of the challenge um it's part of their design space and uh and it doesn't take away from making a beautiful game um as long as you're doing it well right as long as you're not doing it just for the money uh um as long as you're kind of asking yourself the right question questions about why are we making this who is it

for what are we hoping um The Players feel when they play this what are we hoping they say about it as long as you're you're sort of have the right processes and the right team in place to look after the creative side having boundaries and challenges that come from the business model or the distribution is it's just it's just part of making games tell me for a moment more about your leadership style and how that has contributed to unlocking this potential but again at the same time also setting those boundaries you know you are the type of person I can feel it from this conversation see it from what your company has achieved you know it's about staying sustainable but also you know keeping the energy keeping the creativity levels High keeping the costs under control that's quite a Playbook

because I came to the industry um kind of from a corporate background before and although I played games I was never the I was never the gamer um I've always had to take myself out of the conversation a little bit I've always had to like from the very beginning it was clear I'm not the audience this is not about um it's not about me um and over time you know it it been very much about the gamers and the communities and and over time as time has passed more and more about the game makers um and so particularly coming into into us two games it was very clear I was asked to join to create space and room for our amazing teams to do their best work so a lot of kind of my leadership style ER which evolves over time right I mean and

I would say it's always it hasn't always been the same and I I definitely ER it it adapts to the environment that I'm in but you know you know currently in the last two games it's very much about um providing context ER and uh and and and helping guide the overall direction of the company helping uh bring uh some longer term strategic considerations uh into the making of uh of of the games but then creating the environment in which very talented very motivated people feel they want to do some of the best work of their careers because at the end of the day um that's like you know that's the biggest responsibility that we have we have you know we're taking people's time people are choosing to give you the next you know to give the company the next two or three or five or 10 years of

their life um if you create an environment in which they feel that they can grow that they can have an impact that they can um just you know flourish U then then that's kind of like where magic is going to happen uh and if you do that in a way that there is transparency and accountability so people know how much the games making games costs and how much money we make out of them and why we couldn't just you know take this decision or that decision what impact it would have if you um if you treat people like adults then that drive for creativity and making the best game possible is in in um is kind of aligned with um with where the company needs to go um and uh and what we need to do so yeah I think it's you know it's my leaders ship style is very much about transparency and being

human um and uh and about just really enjoying the people that I work with um and uh and just having that sense of um yeah impact on the work that we do as you said earlier it the company has grown it you have gone from a single single game Studio up to having three different teams working how has that worked out for for you and for the studio moving from that that single Focus onto multiple projects and and has that been simplified or Complicated by things like remote working I do think that we we find hybrid work uh you know you we're kind of two days in the studio three days remote and we find that works really well for us because we have small teams so if we had had 45 people working on one project as opposed to 20 and 10

and five or whatever it would be a lot harder um because smaller teams can keep themselves accountable um they can have a lot more uh transparency and I just uh so they they there is a um there's a lot more sense of individual impact on on on the project and a lot more clarity on uh on on what you need to do and how it impacts the project so I think having small teams helps um helps with that um and I think you know so one of the things that we're always very careful of is just managing our calendar uh we do a calendar audit at least once well probably once a year maybe a little bit more than that where we kill recurring meetings and say hey let's see if we can survive without having this caring meeting um and um and where we designed

the company calendar overall things you know when I first came in they told me oh um it's um we have flexible working hours and um um but lunch is between 12:30 and 1:30 I thought I'm a grownup nobody's going to tell me when to have lunch I'll have lunch whenever I want um what I missed and what I didn't realize is that um having Clarity on when breaks are a protects the Break um be make sure that um that there is a um you know people can be productive outside of those hours because things don't spill over um and but also it creates particularly when we're in the studio this amazing uh social thing where everybody eats around theable table or around two tables at

the same time and then we you know play video games for another half hour in our kind of big sitting room area um um so there's a lot more time for unstructured socializing and and and bonding so I think that's just one example of how we're very thoughtful about you know for example know Thursdays is like no meeting day um and although that's not perfectly 100% always maintained it's something that we try to stick to um um yeah so lots of little bits like that to design the how we work teamwork unlocking Talent that's important but of course the business model itself has another aspect because for many Publishers they're looking at this and premium has disappeared on mobile it's been replaced by subscription Services Apple arcade Netflix exactly the models that you've embraced as well but I'm just curious it works now um and

for your future release which we will chat about but in a way Monument Valley is this sort of this last big buy it and Own It game you know you have your paid for extra episodes but it is that do you miss those days and do you think they're going to come back our mindset has evolved um now we really think about the company as a multiplatform company and we think about our games as multiplatform games um so in a way the premium design is still very much how we think about games because we're going to bring them onto PC we're going to bring them onto console even though mobile is our home um and that's why I think there is a very good um reinforcing um kind of ecosystem between like launching something with apple arcade or with Netflix um and uh but also bringing it to PC and console the idea of Premium games on mobile um is is

is is gone unless you're like a party Game Party game and uh board games that seem to be doing quite well still and so I don't think that's necessarily coming back however premium experiences on mobile um are still a thing and uh and I think with you know with the right partners that understand that um er you you can get these games in front of very large audiences who appreciate it um and uh and I think one of the things that's going to have to evolve is is discoverability whether it's on the app store or um or inside these distribution um or subscription platforms whether it's on PC and console there has to be a much better um way for games to find their audiences I mean I think it's crazy that I can turn on Tik Tok and it's just it's like it can read my S immediately will kind of you know you

know 3 hours later I'm like oh my God yes this is all I wanted to know or I can turn on Netflix and and it will give me all these sort of you know shows that I uh uh that I'm interested in in watching and uh and yet most of the game distribution platforms are like you know this this will age me but I think of it as like the sear catalog it's like it's so oldfashioned um so this makes no sense to me and um and I think that that's one of the things that needs to change and I'm hoping that uh will change um um um and and and I think with that you're going to find that uh premium games and by that I mean games that are not geared towards monetizing every single second of your experience uh but games that are um er you know built to uh you know

provide you with a wonderful experience uh for however long you want to play it um that those you know will find uh will find an audience and we'll find the right audiences so I'm going to stay with crossplatform and your strategy first of all it's important to understand of course why claros platform there's always a motivation I want to understand your motivation so let's start there there's a couple of different motivations um one is that we want to reach as many people as possible um and it used to be that for the kind of games that we made mobile was the best way to reach as many people as possible um and um but now given the challenges that I was just discussing uh it isn't necessarily the case so PC and console bring us um you know allow us to broaden our a audience um the second

reason is because we can uh what I mean by that is um as audiences have a vault and taste have a vault with kind of it's become clear that the kind of games that we make deserve to be on PC and console and um and uh and have a place on PCM console and have an audience and and I would say the third reason is because the industry is still very snobbish um and launching a game on PC and console is what triggers a lot of coverage and being um an awards and um um you know I look at Alba a wildlife Adventure which we launched in 2020 at the end of 2020 and then we brought it to PC and console in 21 the vast majority of the coverage for that game uh whether it was press or um it was um

influencers and uh YouTubers Etc or even uh Awards later on all of that is about the PC and console games and yet the majority of the players are on mobile so this is why I say it's kind of like a positive reinforcement bringing the game to PC and console not only broadens your audience and diversifies your Revenue stream but it also generate allows you to speak directly to um to Consumers create a community and that but also it's like Pinocchio you're real Boyer kind of thing we're real game now because we're on PC and console and it just uh opens up opportunities that are not necessarily open to you um if you are a mobile game and particularly if you're a mobile game inside a subscription um uh service mobile is where the audience is there's also however a shift away from mobile for for

us to is is that what I'm perceiving or is that's what's happening or can you simply balance it all you know work across all the platforms I think it's it's it's about diversifying uh and make us be um less dependent on one or the other um um but I would say our core is still very much in in Mobile um and uh but I think that over time that uh you know the the the share of our revenue and the um the share of our focus at on PC and console will will increase you know what will the balance be five years from now I don't know um but we're definitely uh committed to kind of pursuing those you know all of those platforms together particularly when you're going to Market on mobile through subscription uh that is not

necessarily that revenue is is sometimes a little bit capped um and uh it provides you a lot of safety so PC and console is is kind of a way for us to uncap um a um that potential and uh be more um you know where an invest investing on market and investing in community can have the result of actually um generating more Revenue there before we we come to an end I do want to bring this right back to you to your games um and so what what is it that you have on the cards that you can talk about including potentially maybe the next Monument Valley can you tell us anything more about your current projects I think there'll be more on that uh soon but um we've been um yeah we've already been public that uh we are working on the next uh Monument Valley um and uh and I think that um you know I think we're looking to make our over 150

million fans all over the world uh are really looking forward to what's the next Monument Valley and so we're looking to make them very happy but also uh expand Beyond people who haven't played it yet in new generations so um and we're doing that together with Netflix so there'll be uh yeah more to say soon uh but that's about as far as I can read our team wants to talk about what went into Monument Valley because it's such a great experience so did you personally ever play ieko for example and does Monument Valley remind one of IO at some levels or you know what influence was it if at all as so I cannot answer that ER specifically of like how much of an influence IO was on um on the team at the time because I wasn't uh I wasn't part of the team uh back then however what I can say is I did play ion I love Dao um and uh I can

totally see uh where like where that similarity is being drawn uh you know it's a you know that idea of exploring these kind of um oh inspiring architecture and the idea and particularly on Monument Valley too where you've got the mother and the child and in IO you're like carrying like holding hands with the princess I think she was a princess um so there's definitely uh A vibe there um that uh that I think you can probably Trace I think another uh uh influence would have been uh Journey which came out in 2012 um and mon came out in 2014 but I think the game the team back then was very much um a wanting to do something absolutely beautiful on a mobile screen a mobile game that could where every um every screenshot could be a print and

and I don't know if you can see it behind me but uh I've got a couple more around me you know just beautiful uh beautiful uh screenshots of the game there was architecture was a very important uh influence on in the idea of impossibility which came later uh through the work of um you know inspiration from from uh eer uh so yeah I would say say that those are kind of some of the influences that uh that were there but yeah you know shout out to AO as well I definitely L that game back in the day would you mind telling us what is it that you're playing right now that's kind of obsessing you and um then finish off maybe with your favorite game of all time so what I'm playing right now uh you know the funny answer to that is dualingo yeah other than that um I think the the game that most recently caught like obsessed me was uh

tanil um in terms of my favorite of all times actually it's going to be Mass Effect 2 Mass Effect 2 was probably the my favorite game ever and and it was I was working on the BioWare games uh in marketing at the time I I just remember thinking this is a game yeah ostensibly it's a science fiction Opera right but it's a it's a story about what it is to be human yeah I absolutely love that game and I can second that Maria thank you so much and in addition to just transporting us into this wonderful world that you've been talking about you've also given us of course the concrete advice for a sustainable studio and I think that's just as important so on two counts we're so happy to have had you today thanks so much for sharing thank you my pleasure this show is is all about how to do your job better how to make an

amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter @ PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion HST for you as well on the Pocket Gamer Biz website tune in again for the next edition of

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