Tilting Point’s Enric Pedró On Leveraging IP On A Shoestring Budget

[Music] hello world welcome to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and our doanne of data the maven herself Piggy and Sals hello Peggy how are you I am fine you are so gracious when you introduce me every time Brian I have to think of something for you Maestro comes to mind but I have to more more imaginative than that so our guest today uh is going to talk about growth because that's what he does right he's Vice present of growth at tilting point he has a long career 15 years in advertising Mobile gaming uh he's also played a crucial role in the success of hits like SpongeBob crusty Cookoff right but his personal life is another story because he is about growth but in his personal life he's not afraid to literally go downhill not businesslike

but go downhill because he used to compete in downhill skiing many years ago maybe not so many uh the thrill and challenge of this sport taught him valuable lessons about focus and resilience I think we'll hear those as well so Enrique Pedra with a with a buildup like that how can this not be an awesome show welcome thank you for having me well thank you very much um enri welcome it's lovely to have you here um I I'm Keen to know more so tell us a little bit more about your your journey how you got into games and and what it's been like to see so many of your projects have such great Global success I always been um passionate about digital advertising and gaming I've been involved in as Peggy said earlier I've been involved in Mobile for many years now actually I go back before even um gaming working with one of the first um mmps in the space talking about many many many years ago so I've seen a lot of a lot of changes and yes I've always been an Aid gamer myself um now

I'm a a quote unquote proper adult so I don't have so much time for what I call proper gaming yet I still play some mobile games so I I just you know I have less time so I I still invest some time on mobile games although there are some mobile games that require a lot of your time and perhaps money so you need to be careful with that one too um but um I had yes as you mentioned earlier I have had the privilege to work with nowadays many well-known um IPS or branded games and it's it's always great to see um people talking about talking or or playing the games that you have been working on so it's uh it's one you know when I get asked a question not that often when I a question what do you like the most about the the job that you do is when I you know it's it can be as as simple as going throughout the the comments on the latest thoughts that we made about a game and seen that players that actually love to play the game that our team has

put together and they have this you know you can tell that there is behind the numbers and the cper installs and the retargeting campaigns there is actually a human being who is actually enjoying playing the games that we are um promoting or that my team is promoting so it's a you know it's a good pleasure of mine that you know sometimes I we tend to forget that we are in the business of um making or doing games and these games are meant to you know have make people have fun or to enjoy themselves playing on a on a mobile device and that's that's probably what Um passion me the most um right now is just um getting you know thinking that I'm empowering these people to get to know better and um more better and improved games that we point you you mentioned IP and and I I want to sort of dive into that if if we can because uh you're working on uh a an absolutely Monster uh license at the moment literally um with uh the new Godzilla

versus Kong um Titan Chasers game so can you you tell us more about how how that came to be and um there's a there's a great link here folks because uh I know for a fact that one of my favorite studios here in Scotland one of the most Northerly if not the most Northerly game studio in the country um hunted cow are the team behind it so how did you how did you come to be producing the this absolutely monster so um and yes G to the guys at hunted cows who they have been doing a great work so far we have been working with them with two titles already um the the latest one which has been a few years now it's a Warhammer chaos and Conquest um game so um they are now handson mostly on on working on this game as you all said it's um Godzilla versus gong which is indeed as the name States it's based on the wellknown IP um recently there's been a um a movie release there's been as well a TV show on Apple Plus so um we we are

lucky that um dap um is becoming again prevalent in the space and as such um we thought that it was a great opportunity to try to leverage our existing expertise in the Forex space or to put it um more specifically hunted cow's expertise in the Forex space to actually um at uh this well-known IP which hopefully helps us to engage an specific audience that we think fits well with this um with this game engine that we have already available as well as with with the IP that many people are um know or love it's a it's as I mentioned already it's a well-known IP actually I was I wasn't so aware on how much hype how many fans there are behind Kong and Godzilla down to knowing you know I have Star Trek behind me so you know all about the track is but I wasn't aware of the how many good big Godzilla and Kong

fans were and they are really into the lore so it's really it's great to see how the team is putting together all these lore which obviously needs to get the approval from the IP owner or legendary who is the LI the licenser of this game which goes along the lines of what um the movie is about um so obviously it's great to be an extension to col it somehow of what of this movie and hopefully we make um many fans happy with getting able to spend or invest some of their time in one one of their more um one one one of their most LOF um IPS is in the space how do smaller studos how do smaller companies um you know kind of really leverage that how do you get into IP if you're if you're not building your own original content you know how do smaller companies tap into the new cultural Trends and start to find licenses that they can potentially work with and you know what are what what are the risks and rewards it's a good point Brian because obviously um I am we are are coming or I'm coming from

tilting P obviously um big company or well-known company we have and you know people say of course this guy is coming with a big guns talking about being able to work with the legendary how I'm going to suppose I'm a small Studio I'm one guy or two small team and then I barely make the memes or ends meet at the end of the month I wish I I had the chance this are relable how the hell I'm going to be working with a legendary to create or to develop a Godzilla and versus K game that's not that's nothing I can learn from this and actually I it's I was thinking about it and and for a smaller developers there is still a chance that you can see it um you can currently see it if you go on um Tik Tok or YouTube you will see all these as ASMR videos for instance there is I actually was seeing it this morning there is a a trend I've been seeing for a few months now it's about cleaning carpets so you see a really dirty carpet and then you see someone who uses like def machines and like like okay like there's no way this carpet is going to be clean up and after six minutes of of

deep cleaning it becomes like a brand new carpet so guess what there are several game developers who are now promoting games which are based on clean carpets cleaning carpets so it's just they use the same the same they use the the the the idea of the SMR of like I'm cleaning carpets and I'm going to build a game based on cleaning carpets it doesn't sound too exciting yet when you see the the game play and it's like an extension or like a an extension it's you're leveraging an existing audience so it's probably close to what maybe um hyper casual might be but it's uh to your question Brian that's a great example on how a smaller Studio can leverage not necessarily h a big IP that is going to come and we can talk about it later on it comes obviously with a with a price and some legal and you know there it's it's it's complicated and it's a lot of time invested there but obviously for a smaller developer there is no need to get for you to get a license to do a cleaning car carpet game

so and same goes with um characters who might be um or not Brands but characters that are they have been available um in they have been public domain characters at least they have been available for centuries and as such you can still create or develop a game based on that so another example could be okay I cannot use Again Godzilla and K because these are characters owned by the IP licenser legendary but still I mean sure you can think about dra Frankenstein and the Le and moner L monster for in indeed you can sure you can well but many people have done a game about this yes but you can always find a spin or maybe think about the necess monsters but there is a a full repertoire of characters and IPS to call it somehow that are available for free in the space so that doesn't necessarily mean that you're stuck with having to deal with um high price points and minimum guarantees and royalty and what not you can still leverage public domain

characters or as I was saying earlier um content that is available that you know it's signals that are telling you or telling the developer hey there is a there is an audience or there's a potential audience fit here and I can think we can think of a a game engine or of a game mechanic that can fit that specific um that specific Trend so that's probably how I would that's probably that's how I would I would advise smaller teams to try to leverage these trans or um culture just wanted to zoom back out for a moment and be very clear about why well-known IP even if it's in the public domain like a Dracula why that is a good thing because Studios believe that when they leverage well-known IP they can impact the game's Market reception you know commercial hit um or player engagement we love these characters and we're going to play and it's going to be sort of a slam dunk here I just curious is that still the case or is the overall value of Ip

different is it something that's you know across the full funnel is it just to do great UA I mean what is the value of doing this what are you seeing it really depends on the type of IP integration that you're going to be leveraging um you I I would put just to simplify because you can get in a lot of deep into the detail um or the rabbit hole of Ip licensers but there I will um I will um categorize in two different two types one type is the the short license which is going to last two weeks a month and we can you um we can probably talk about later on about work that we have done with big brands or wellknown Brands and how we leverage that in specific games that is going to be a an i duration that last as I said two weeks a month and that probably has a more of a a UA component where we're trying to leverage a well-known Brown as like hey um we're leveraging this well no brand to you know tie it to our games in hopes that it's going to reduce for for instance the cost per insult and

perhaps if the if the integration is well well done well done quote unquote within the game it might see as well an an increase on LTV because players ultimately going to be spending more because hey I know this brand or I love this brand I'm going to spend or I love this influencer so I'm going to be buying their skin or I'm going to be buying their in-game item which is time limited and as such you're going to see first and a decrease on cost per install and as well you get more creative not freedom but necessarily but you had more creative repertoire for you to be able to leverage this brand and two within the in-game integration as I said earlier you get um the players like oh this is a limited time integation I love this character or this brand I'm going to buy this item because I love it period so you can see an increase L that's the first category which is the the front that probably most people have in mind will probably you see um tilting point and the likes doing where we keep they keep announcing these IP interations happening on an ongoing basis you can see this um happening um on

Google Play and and the App Store where you see a limited promotion or an event card of a specific event that only lasts two weeks or a month that's one the second one is a it's a long-term integration where the game is based on that license or that IP so um tilting p is well known for that to um you mentioned earlier Peggy about um SpongeBob crossov we released a new game a new game that was a months ago now another SpongeBob game called um Adventures um we have a a game for narcos we're developing a name for Godzilla we have an upcoming name game for Avatar not the blue guys the the cartoon and the the the um the nickan one um and so on and so forth so that's a different type of um IP integration obviously this is um we're leveraging a license um to um L and then we're using a game engine and we putting the license

on top so we think okay what's going to be the best license that going to fit our available game engine or the other way around we know that this license is open to do a game which game engines We Believe can fit to this narrative because I was I'm just putting it back to the example with the small developers and cleaning carpets it's unlikely I mean maybe proven wrong in a few months and then it's a great and it's a it's a mobile it's it's a game hit but I doubt you're going to see a game about cleaning a card based or turn based cleaning carpet game because it doesn't make any sense yet if you see a game which is an upper casual well I don't know problem maybe I give you a great idea there but I doubt you see the spin there it's qu UNL they going to see a CH based cleaning carpet game or you know it's going to be super Niche um and interesting game but I will be surprised if it's a commercial success happy to be proven wrong um on the other hand you could say like okay it's a a fast

cleaning game it's like a per casual where with your finger like you you know you are cleaning throughout the the carpet so the fast as you go um the more points you get and so on so that's a that's hyper casual type of game where you should there is a clear feel like okay like like it took me 20 seconds to put together to to think or like to do a a brainstorm on how I can I apply this cleaning carpet um content into a game the same goes with an IP or with a launch work that we do with a game based on an IP um where we say okay how this IP can fit into the game engine that we have or the other way around um we have no DPS available how we can make it work um if we can make it because don't get me wrong um you all hear about yes we're working with Godzilla and Avatar and SpongeBob but you don't you do not hear about all the license license source and all the IPS that we have checked that either they're not available or they're too expensive or they're not a good fit for the game engines that we have available at the there are opportunities

you pointed that out we can have you know the the characters we know we can look at tickt and get into some Trends and be very creative and yes a carpet cleaning game and who knows Enrique if we see a a flood of them we'll know where they came from you were the inspiration but that tells us that there is often overlooked sources of Ip that could be more accessible more affordable for smaller developers um maybe you can just go a little deeper in there for everyone who doesn't want to do a carpet cleaning game um and also a little bit of advice for the smaller Studios looking to use IP more creatively you talked about levels to which you can integrate it let's try and push the envelope a little bit Inspire our listeners and give them some thoughts about you know what can they take in terms of Ip and how far they can take it so um the first and and obvious one which I have been alluding into earlier is um does the IP or the IP or um the

I'm going to say Thea or the niche fits with the with my core target audience because either as a as a as a game developer you either have a game engine that you really you know you know you can fast turn around the game development of that set idea or or you're starting from a SC like hey I have six months a year a year and a half to develop um I say game engine that's like the game mechanic that you know on top we're going to add the IP so that's that's the first one um is obviously that as I was saying earlier too is that IP adaptable to um to gaming um I gave the example of the carpet cleaning you just come keep going to that there might be other ideas which might not be um so relatable to gaming yet keep going with a g with a clinic um with the cling genre I seen I know that is a a power washing game which has been super popular on Steam there is another game about managing a super Supermarket which is like literally you're putting you

know you're you're um you're a cashier and you're well you're a manager of a supermarket you need to manage the prices and just like um um charge people and what not so some of the ideas is like no no one will ever play that actually you might be be proven wrong so that's one and then um when it comes down to um let's say you you pinpoint an IP which maybe it's it could be a public domain cure which don't necessarily you you don't need to rely on any want to get the approval but to it could be um a cultur you can consider as well cultural cultural IPS local IPS which might be not well known worldwide or perhaps try or think about collaborating with emerging media personalities you don't you don't need to be working with Mr Beast because obviously the price te of Mr Beast is GNA be you know no one no one some can but not many can afford it but maybe you can come up with a um smaller media personality I content creators or influencers who have a

smaller um following following yet they know they you know that you can leverage this following to actually attract a bigger audience um to keep or to to play your game and it's easier to work with these smaller content creators influencers just because they are smaller they are starting they're really Keen to you know to them it's a great opportunity to get more exposure and to you as a small game developer it's a great it's a great great way to actually learn the ropes so don't you know don't start with the let start with you you probably won't be able to afford it but my suggestion recommendation would be start with a smaller IPS or smaller Med personalities and whatnot gather the insights see if it works for you and based on that if you get those insights and you see that it's helping you out then it makes sense to just keep raising the bar until you again not necess go after Mr Beast but you start talking to bigger um content creators who actually

has um a quite an expensive um price tag um ultimately um you want as well to explore um Niche or or classic um IPS that they come they might come with a lower cost it can be as well um an older an old movie or or Monopoly look look at that I mean my grandparents were playing that there you go there you go it could or it could be we call old but old could be the '90s right now um it's it's it hards to say it hurts me to say that but 90s are old now so you could still leveraging IPS from the 90s like can then heit that Target like sweet spot of um 40 45 plus which you know for instance is great for um casual puzzle games so hey I know that again going back to the to the audience feed um I know there is a puzzle casual game that fits my core audience that is a female 45 plus looking for like my quote unquote me time or Escape time so I'm

going to try to leverage I don't know a TV show that was about um cleaning up spaces I'm just making this app which was well well really well known in the UK I'm just you know going throughout the niche of the niche but you know there is a subset of or of this genre available in the UK which probably won't have a a really high price tag I don't know I'm just going to make this up 20K 30k and you know you can leverage that and you know that right of the B many of these um core audience are going to be like oh I used to remember that watching these um TV show when I was a teenager or when I was a kid with my mom back you know for summertime whatever it is and they you can ping on that Nostalgia element to get and follow them to um to play your game yeah and and and you know I'm going to go back to our friends at hunted cow because um so before they started working on the big glamorous you know um Hollywood IP a lot of the games they were producing were turn based um tactical War Games you know based on actual battles from the second World War and the Civil War oh my God if you want

to talk about a hardcore fan base um everything they produced around the American Civil War was just um astonishing um and a really you know hardcore game genre as well so again this is brilliantly valuable but I would like to kind of follow up and ask if there are Studios out there who are interested how do they go about it do you do you need a licensing agent is it lawyers or do you just hit Google and and kind of start looking for contacts what what what's the best way forward I can speak by experience from T te point we are lucky to have a super well burst um buas development team um who already have the context in place so and as such we we already they I'm it's not part of my job but it's part of my team's job at tiling Pond is that they they are constantly in touch with the different licensers and so they know okay not necessarily that this movie is coming out but hey this licenser is available or is willing to produce a new game um it could be I'm just going to I'm

just going to make up one example but you can like oh nickan already have a SpongeBob game I wonder were willing to do another SpongeBob game Well turns out there is five or six more SpongeBob games so yes back then that was um crossy crossy cof was one of the first ones now there are many more so that that shows you that not necessarily they already make or there is already one game available for set IP or license that doesn't mean that there not cannot be other IP or license based Games available and again one thing is you might remember the two categories I was mentioning earlier one thing is you producing a game that is fully based on that IP or license which it comes with a title and the whole game the characters are based on that IP the other one is like a shortterm two week uh two weeks or a month three months implementation where you really have the game engine you you act on top um that um that IP now um you would say oh well I don't have a a p development person or again we're a small a small team how do we

Crack the Code or how do we get started there are a few events in the space that are um licenser based events though I think I can't recall the game now the name now but the biggest one happens in Las Vegas um so you just go there and just get to talk um with the different licensers and you see what's available um there but again um Brian I know I keep repeating this but is this the there is there is a price cost that you need to make sure that like hey I'm not going to be able to invest so much on UA or I might have to cut down on my production cost on development cost or on Creative cost because a Chun of that investment goes into paying the lenser now when it comes down to the mo money obviously money talks but there are I don't I want to say creative ways because I'm not in we're not Reinventing the whe here but there might be different means for you to negotiate with an IPO licenser it could be that you are agreeing um with a a minimum guaranteed and then you're doing a

revenue share as in hey I'm gonna pay you in advance x amount and then I'm gonna make a percent I then I'm going to pay you a percentage based on the revenue that we both make after app stores commissions and whatnot or you can go right at the bat like hey I'm GNA do you know it's a quote unquote older IP and a such I rather pay you on a Reven we small studio so I rather pay you on a revenue share basis um and these are our projections on how well we think that this game is going to perform obviously um that's you as a developer you're going to be super excited about your game engine and you're going to put all these ideas together on how well it fits or can get feed your game engine and what not but you do think as well on the other side of the of the coin which is the brand itself does it you need to you need to think you need to demonstrate a clear alignment between um your game or the game engine or the the cab the IP collaboration that you you're going to develop as and the brand values um you want to have like a detailed marketing and engagement strategy

because it's it's going to be a lengthy process and you want to come with a homework done as in oh I will come back to you in a few weeks with how the ination goes no you already have like a pre-made um presentation with on how this IP integration is how do you think this IP integration is going to work in your G and how do you believe that this is going to benefit as well the brand or the or the licenser because ultimately as I mentioned earlier the licenser their job is to as the name states to license that IP so if you demonstrate to them hey for instance I'm I'm going to give you an angle hey if I'm making a game that is resonating with your core audience your brand is going to be more spoken about I'm going to do as well user acquisition so you're gonna I'm going to get more eyeballs to your brand and as such I might be pushing back or I might be pushing back I might be like the the Phoenix it's might resurging an IP or a brand that has been sleeping quote unquote for say 20 years and now

it's becoming popular again thanks to my game so you want to you know pick on those or selling points just to you pick a ball on the on the Brand's interest because maybe it's a a small U as you was leing Brian earlier maybe it's a small um small or not so wellknown cartoon back from 25 years ago and they were like why would you want to do another games like well because I know thanks to gaming or thanks to Mobile gaming I'm going to resurface these IP that's people going to be like oh yes I remember when I used to watch these cartoons when I was a kid so now I'm going to play the game and then I'm going to be probably buying the you know the um the limited edition of the comics they may have and what not so you can the toy the lunch boox the doy cover because again you you're pitching to an audience that now it's older so now they have um hopefully they have some um um disposable income not only to play your game and to spend on doing app purchases or to buy Js as well to go back to the to the brand itself and oh I'm actually

I'm going to buy the lunch boox or I'm going to buy the sealed um I don't know the the seal boxes that were giving away um when you were buying egg so that that collection perspective that you know if you you you're going after ultimately you're going after that Niche audience and some of that Niche audience is a super fan and that Super Fan you know you might be creating super fans who might feed back on that um liary itself that's obviously that's a good way to pitch it to the licenser on hey why makes sense for you to allow us to develop a mobile game and to be honest with you many of these IPS again I'm talking about the bigger IPS I'm talking about the smaller ones they never even they perhaps didn't they know about Mobile gaming but they never even bother to think how this applies to my brand because they never even thought that it was an option so that that's a really interesting point I was going to ask you about that so I'm really glad you brought it up which is um what what's the appetite out there for from

license holders are they aware of the mobile games Market you know are they you know familiar with Hyper casual and and essentially what the expectations should be for you know a a pitch coming for either something simple and Hyper casual or something you know far more um kind of longterm I'm going to give you a bit of a an ambiguous answer but the answer is it really depends on who is um who is on the other side of the of the conversation maybe if it's a a well ver a Prof if it's a if it's a younger profile as in someone who gets mobile someone who has a smartphone and has a Tik Tok account or um an Instagram account and what not they likely are already playing some mobile games or they're familiar with what mobile gaming entitles if it's an older profile sure Aller all the demographic do play as well mobile games but they might have a harder time to see how this can apply to their brand and why it makes sense to actually um Implement that brand on on their game ultimately

what you want to make is um make a great pitch on how you you you announ you keep that brand being prevalent throughout 10 so in the past it was oh I'm seeing my brand being advertised not advertised being spoken on TV and that was big news or I saw it on uh on the newspaper not because I pit for it but because there was an article about whatever happened so that was you know that was you fr the page and you see the framing on the wall because there was a big event back then now the fact that I'm having a mobile developer um creating a game and who's actually promoting this game it should be perceived as a as you know it's it's another medium that is available currently in the space in the in the in the in the in the in the 21st century so it's it was TV it was radio it was newspapers and now it's most a smartphones and mobile devices so sure you can have a YouTube channel sure you can um hope that maybe Netflix or Hulu f you and a documentary or whatever it is

but ultimately hey I have a a developer team who is really passionate about gaming and they are really keen on leveraging my brand so I can reach a potential audience who is not again it's not a YouTube channel it's not a Netflix it's it's throughout a game and look if I type my um brand name or my IP on the App Store of Google Play or throughout Google search the game is going to show up there so that's another mean for me to keep make that IP or brand prevalent throughout the years MH great way looking at just another medium those multi another multimedia it's where people are um so yeah you're on you're on all of the above and in a game it's just an extension of the brand obviously you want to make sure as a as a small developer a small developer as a developer that you you want to prove as well that you have the means of of making it happen and you again I was mentioning earlier you want to come with your homework prepared but unfortunately if you have never released a game then it really be hard for any brand to

take you seriously so obviously you need to start from the from the bottom which is like hey I released this game I don't know just get some key kpis or metrics that you can showcase hey I know what I'm doing or look I I created these um game at the end of um or like last year and we got I don't know 50,000 downloads to someone who is not super well burst in the mobile space $50,000 downloads might sound like don't get me wrong it's a lot of downloads but in the grand scheme of things it's not such a big number but yet for a small brand or licens like hey I got $50,000 on on this app and these is people who are playing I'm just going to make this app at least 10 minutes a day throughout seven days you know it's you multiply the time by the eyeballs and you get look I'm going to give you this much more exposure on a aroundand that actually you're not making a lot out of it but you need to start for summer right so at least you need to have some a portfolio or like if you go again to work with better well-known or bigger Brands you need to

have had first a chance to work with a smaller brand so you can showcase look I did this work with these guys and this is a smaller um entity or this is a smaller IP in Scotland and now I'm aiming for the big um cartoon us um cartoon base that in the '90s that was super popular it's a different leag on its own yet you need to come like with some pedigree if you want to call it somehow you've covered so many things in around branding and Licensing but for those smaller Studios um who have maybe had their first success their kind of their breakthrough is product placement is that kind of brand takeover a a possibility um or is is that something that's maybe a little too esoteric and outside your kind of your field that's a really good point and actually I was mentioning you right at the beginning of um of this podcast that um how I I started in advertising and mobile gaming my actually my master thesis was about in-game advertising back then I'm talking about many many years ago but back then I I yes the conclusion was

that it did not work but I'm happy to see that now that's is not the case anymore it does work it's just that you need to have the the thing about the product placement itself back then I was I my thesis I'm talking about again many years ago so excuse me for referring back to something so old but I was I was thinking or in my mind was like the the Ser like you're playing uh a football or a soccer game and you see the um the Billboards on the sides like that's a as far as you or maybe you see a racing game and you see the big Billboards on the road that's as as far as the uh the thesis went back then because we're talking about many unfortunately many many years ago now when you think about as we said Brian product placement hey it's like um I'm we're going to use the example of a game that we recently recently again I say recent but time flies we released last year which is called fashion verse which as the name States is about fashion and on that game um it makes it all sense you have brand um fashion brands who are quote unquote

advertising their items within the game why that's product plac because hey it's a it's a perfect fit I'm I'm putting together outfits for a certain events that that's what the game is about and as such I get to for instance speak a back uh a handback from Michael K first Michael K is going to be Stoke or super happy to get their um handbags placed on the game and two the player the fashion B player like oh I love Michael C or of course I know Michael C I've seen their m handbags a over the place and maybe I can I cannot afford them or maybe I do have one and I wish I had this other model or maybe you're talking about or this specific um handbag that you couldn't buy back then and now you can buy it throughout the game or maybe it's for free because you have some M car in game currency available so that's it's a perfect um Feit both for the brand who has to advertise with get top of the of mind for the player and two for the

player or for the game developer because they're leveraging uh a brand that is a spot on on the game that they developed clearly managing IP is a mammoth task you know you have to understand the fit has to fit with the mechanics and it always will depend you know do you want to do something that's just a quick integration with the game engine or something deeper so there's a lot to consider there but there's also a lot to consider when you're managing a team to achieve this and that has its unique challenges now what's interesting about You Enrique is that you have adopted a tilting Point first of all you have a process for this and secondly you've got one heck of a team because you've got more than 50 now so that's keeping them motivated working what are you doing to make that happen are there tools practices best practices you know how do you make collaboration possible because of course smaller Studios smaller teams things can get streamlined bigger teams

they can get stalled first and foremost um obviously is um to keep I mean that's that's an obvious one but just to keep everyone motivated but it's it's going back and and and it's going to be one of those things like duh of course but that basic stuff is what actually does make a difference is to make sure that everyone is clear on Mission and under core kpis as in what means that I'm doing not hry I mean I I I I think I have pretty clear what my role is but if I go to speak with a say a community manager or I go to speak myself I speak to the Le hey let's make sure that this profile of the your team is full align on what they're supposed to be doing the everyone every team member is really clear on what's their job Mission what are the key key metrics in how I am going to be measured or how I know that I'm doing the right job or that I'm actually effectively investing my time on what I'm supposed to be doing and and and on the other hand as well is be super clear on the

overall on the company on a company level what our um objectives and key results we invested actually um a decent amount of time we do it um on a yearly basis and they should be something new to everyone but again it's to the basics but it does really make a difference hey these are our objectives for 2024 these are the key results that we're going to be tracked to make sure that we are hitting these objectives so we break these down by department and by game team and then we have certain objectives which now you're trying to be like certain going to higher rather than mid level so you need to be like stretch levels and then you make sure that you know on an ongoing basis you check with your core team at least with my leads that we are working towards those key results and therefore towards those objectives now if we speak about um growth itself which is the department that I I oversee um in the past and this again this depends it really depends on

a on a company by company basis but what I realize throughout my years is that sure on most companies you have a UA profile and an ASO profile and an ad monetization profile and that that makes sense on a certain setup but when you are working and it applies both for big companies and a small companies and I do believe that actually it does work and that's hence I'm sharing it today um we decided about year and a half ago that instead of having these The Silo quote unquote um growth profiles we would put them under what we call a a a game growth manager so that's a profile that not only overseas UA but as well overseas AB optimization and AD monetization now people here in this podcast like well andry this is great but um it's impossible for a human being to be able to manage everything and yes that's true but that's why we have a team in place where you know you try to rely on other people but we try to

mitigate or to reduce to the to the zero the answer of like well that's not my responsibility because that's on ASO or that's that's because that's on admon or that's on product I'm specifically talking about growth because that's a department that I oversee but this applies throughout tilting pond in every Department sure again you have your kpis or your key responsibilities and that's what you're going to be measured upon but if you look into the GR schem things anything that your core game team does it's going to have it should have an impact on what whichever task or key result you have um ultimate so I'm I can go down to a community manager why do I care what product team does well you you actually care a lot because if you're not if the features that your core audience your community is asking are not Hur then your job is going to be a nightmare because you're going to be constantly you know replying back to angry C customers or angly players on why this feature is not fixed or why

this happen and so on and so forth and the are rare on if product quote unquote does a good job then they're going to be like oh we want to know more about what our core player base thinks about X Y and Z rather than only looking at the core numbers which we all do which is looking hey is LTV increasing is CPI reducing is my retention and why is my day 90 day high and so on and so forth yes these are core metrics But ultimately there are other metrics that you need to work alongside other team members within a within a game team a core game team because all of them are part of the game success so what ding Point what we do is we grow games and in such the realization that it came not long ago a year and a half ago is that we had going back to the growth Department we had or I had to make sure that I was breaking down those walls from the silos because there was no way like it was like an ongoing oh that's U team or that's the creative team or that's game team and

there know your team is the game team and as such you need to all be align in order to make this game a success and it could be x y and Z's and that's what that's what I've been working on for the last um three years now at point it's such a good strategy I'm so encouraged to hear that you're doing that because most of the companies I'm talking with they're like yeah we need to break down the silos and that's just it and you've done it and you've shown that it matter matters because everyone is on the same page it's about growth it's not are you admon and therefore achieving growth are you UA and therefore achieving growth it's like it is the business of the team and you need to keep repeating you know on a weekly basis on what's the the objectives what are the key results what's your mission but that's again going back to what I was mentioning 10 minutes ago that's why you want to be super clear on responsibilities but then as well to you know so everyone knows okay I know that this is happening so I know I have to talk to this profile because I know that there their their core key

responsibility yet this has a direct impact on how well I'm going to be doing because this is my key result as in if I don't get more players to my game and I'm going to get more ad views and as such my CPM might be high but my impression is going to be low so my key result on making x amount of that monetization is going to be unachievable so you know you have to backtrack to the to the basics yet when you when you put it in the paper is really easy when you get down to actually get to your team member to actually understanding it it's a matter of repetition and making you know being super clear on on the basics and with that you want to think as well that you're working with grownup or adults all doing their best to make their job their best to and as such when you come as well with that that um idea to as a starters then um things tend to work ultimately you want you want you want to you want to showcase what's the what's the the the guide will be the Northstar for your team because that's ultim as you well said Peggy em right you're I am maning over 50 people so you want to be that guide and ultimately as

a myself now piing on on on my behalf as a manager most of my time ends up being talking to my team or my leads to make sure that we are all align and then just what I told you know it's a sentence that I like to use quite often but like my job is to make their life easier in terms of work personal life I cannot get involved in that even if that's that's of their house and their time we spend our plenty of time through the webcams and a slack um but at this at work if there is an issue that you know stops you from making things happen let me let me know I I'm going to do my best to mitigate that because ultimately we're coming with a principle like maybe there's a misalignment between teams maybe there's a misunderstanding of what's your key result or maybe there is a a a different way to approach the same problem which is absolutely fine it's just you need to align with different team members the bigger um and you realize it when of course the company grows but maybe for a smaller um game teams like like maybe it's three four five people it gets to a point where

your team is going to grow you're going to be 10 15 20 30 people and these things would seem basic or like oh I wish we were back to the time where it was only five people and we were aligned if you're doing your job quot andquot properly as a leader then this this realization won't come to place because you're really going to keeping up with the same way that you were operating back then it's just that you need to adapt to the new circumstances which is having a bigger team therefore you need to make sure that everyone's line because just for this you know you have more people to manage before you go there are two questions we ask all of our guests the first is what are you playing right now what's obsessing you what's taking up all your time but you should be you know leading your people and the second uh question favorite game of all time so the one that I'm I've been playing because I I was seeing not not as much now because I download the game and I played it's called um The Legend um of mushrooms which is a clicker um um game which was been heavily advertised um for a while so I've been playing this you know throughout many other games that I have to keep um the eyes on

that's the one that I've been playing now the most but again this changes on a weekly basing I was I was playing as well the the cleaning carpet game earlier so there is that um my favorite mobile game of all time it's called The Binding of Isaac which is a roog a rooll like shooter game um it's hard but it's really fun I mean it's like a bit of a dark RoR there so if you never play it it's a rug like so so it's it's hard but it's really it's available on many platforms now and my most um the game I I want to see I I have I played many games but the one that I have the Fondest Memories is Battlefield Battlefield 1942 um that was like a I used to play a lot of Counter Strike and FPS and whatnot but that was one of the first ones where um objects were being destroyed throughout the the battle and that was like mind-blowing to me talking about many many many years ago though and RI it has been an absolute Joy it has been um mindblowing and I think

there's there's so much that we're going to be hearing about writing about on the site moving forward and I can't wait to get my hands on um Godzilla versus cotton Titan Chasers once it's out of soft launch all right thank you begging thank you Brian for having me really appreciate it this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast

and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shoes and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future