The Secret Sauce of Scaling Successfully with Joshua Wilson, CEO of SciPlay

[Music] welcome everybody to the deconstructor fun podcast i'm your host mishka kadkov and today i have a fantastic guest joshua wilson one of the first employees of sciplay and a couple of years ago you actually became the ceo of sciplay a publicly traded company joshua welcome to the podcast uh thank you thank you so much for having me i'm i'm very excited it's uh i'm looking to have some fun here all right all right that's that's the first time i hear that from a podcast podcast guest so let me let me try to deliver on that so just for the folks who are unfamiliar with mobile casino games of course we have a lot of listeners who are very familiar but not everybody in the mobile gaming space is familiar with the social casino kind of shy upon it but anyway it's an over 5 billion market in 5 billion in the western markets

this is based on my experience is most of the revenue is coming from american players the players are a bit more mature than in other genres and it's quite typical for the player to play several casino games at the same time kind of like in a real casino when the game goes cold you switch to a hot one in terms of revenue side play is twice as big as huge and third of the size of platika so that's how people can kind of put it into a perspective top games jackpot jackpot jackpot party 50 of the revenue goldfish casino about 15 and quick hit slots another 15 and then there's a big portfolio of all kinds of other games josh did i get it right yeah yeah pretty pretty much uh pretty much dead on i do think the market's closer to seven billion now so yeah think of that was it in net revenue or or uh or gross review i was talking about net oh well there you go that's better yet so so we are both correct yes

uh all right first things first you're based out of austin now can you tell everybody how amazing austin texas is austin is a city that until you've been here it's it's so hard to explain um i'll start with i i come from iowa originally so coming to austin was kind of a shock because it's so diverse like they have ethnic all over uh sexual gender all over like it is and so for me it was like wow this is like this is great like you never know who you're going to talk to and you just strike up so many amazing conversations every weekend every actually every day there's a band playing somewhere so if you want to go listen to live music go uh i'm a golfer and the golf courses here are crazy good and then like everyone else you know i did the the austin 20 because the food here

is so amazing like it's just everything just tastes so good you can't just eat a bite of it like you just keep going going um i'm loving it and by the way no winner other than funny enough i have saw i've been part of all three of the snowstorms and and they were pretty brutal they have some friends in austin that uh that you know the snowstorms were no joke no like it was uh once again from iowa for me they weren't so bad um i think a lot of people realized overnight that really big rear wheel drive trucks do not go well in snow i i really cannot say enough good things about austin um and really it's the people uh that's that's the part of this city that makes it thrive yeah yeah that's that's the thing you shouldn't be telling too many good things about austin so that no more people move moving because that's the bad thing about us is that there are too

many people moving in very true very true uh and you're you definitely see it and how it grows this way so fast yeah with the lake it's a nice place there's lakes there's you know the food is great not only the barbecues but everything else but uh but we're not here to talk about austin and by the way we're here to talk about social casino and as we're jumping into social casino i wanted to ask you about another location that i'm always wondering with social casino and that is israel why does it every social casino come company has a studio in israel given the fact that israel ain't vegas because you can't even have a casino in the whole country what what's the uh what's the secret sauce with uh with the casino companies social casino companies in israel no that's it's a great question and i wonder over time if if it wouldn't have evolved then people wouldn't answer it differently yeah um i'm a huge uh tel aviv fan um you know up until covet i was probably living about half of the year there um i

spent a fair amount of time there um but i think something that sets israel apart which is why you see so much social casino in social casino we get so much access to the player and the player wants to play such long sessions um because of that there's such a focus on live ops and there's such a focus on monetization and the culture in israel has developed that muscle probably better than anywhere else in the world also you look at their marketing capabilities yeah um they're basically the trend setter to the world and so what ends up happening is companies go there the ones that don't have slot knowledge their their slots are normally being built in the us uh uh uh upper uh euro

but they're they they know how to build slots so what they figured out is since the slot which is just a simple core loop that goes over and over and over again they don't need to build them they just need to find someone that can that takes care of the player in there and they do everything around that very well and so i think that's why people go there more often is because you know you have platika there moon active there uh huge now has an office there play studios has an office there we have a large office there and so that knowledge is just throughout uh it's amazing to be honest yeah yeah i just had to ask because it's such an it's such a weird thing like i've naturally spent time in israel as well but just knowing that there's no casinos and their best at casinos is like what's going on like you would assume that macau and vegas would be the best places because they're kind of leave living and breathing slots and poker and blackjack and it's even funnier yet when you go to a casino with a dessert and they're like

you're putting real money in this thing but once again it's you know it's not just about that it's about the entertainment time that you give them outside of that and yeah that muscle they've developed very well yeah amazing and operating on operating games so can you talk a little bit about sciplay's history because sciplay is uh less than three years old publicalistic um like how how does the company get listed so fast uh what happened because there must be a huge history before that yeah there is a huge history so you know the public entity is is three years old as you said but sciplay and it's its fundamentals of who we are the culture was actually created in 1998 um a group of gentlemen um put together a business in cedar falls iowa um to build slot machine games on cd-roms

and sell them to like targets walmarts office maxes and that was the business and they you know they became number one because they built better slot machines than everyone else was and that it grew the business grew the business in 2000 like three four we built our first online game so this is long before anyone had anything online for slot machines and it was a multiplayer but it was very two-dimensional parallaxing screen and but that got our our our hook into understanding there's an online concept where people will play this stuff socially then facebook came facebook came you know we built our first game there it took off

during this same time a company called wms which was you know about 20 percent of all the market share of all the slots on casino floors approached us to buy us a buy phantom and so we were acquired then by wms uh about a year and a half later wms was acquired by scientific games then scientific games acquired bali so at this point now it's like almost 31 32 of all the slots on the casino floor that arm of the business uh owned um and then our part of the business was taking off and doing so well that we decided it's like it might make more sense to spin us out as a separate public company and so this is where sci play was born no sciplay is like a mixture of all these companies that were bought together but really at the like its core it's still

the same founder culture mentality and we've been able to take that from you know when i started i think there were seven employees and today there's more than six hundred oh wow so from seven to six hundred and three years no no no no no no no from cedar falls yeah so since we've gone public i think it's about 400 to 600. no okay wow so got it so it's a it was a division inside scientific games yeah we were their social division inside of scientific games and were you the the guy who raised his hand when they asked who wants to be a public ceo of a social casino company you know or did you have to draw a stick you know i was like we were sitting there drawing straws and son of a bit no i i no when the opportunity came i was very very very excited um of course you know

we had been running the business with our executive chairman and uh the founder of the original business as a trio and um it was i was the best i was the right choice um being that where everyone else says barry was gonna stay with scientific games uh aaron uh was ready not didn't want to take on that next and so it just you know i'm happy i did it um very a lot of sleepless nights um but you know maybe wish covert wouldn't happen but other than that and possibly some privacy changes and things like that but the world changed so much in exactly three or four years yeah so i have to ask you what's the one best thing about being a ceo of a public gaming social gaming company and what is one of the worst things of being

i think the best part is that the entire company and all the workers get to see how we're doing they can pull it up see that stock they can see the value uh they get to see the headlines of the company that they work for you really get that brand and that brand is global now where when you're a private company you're less global you're normally only in that location and so like being part of building that building sciplay the brand itself and who we are to the world was probably the most gratifying i mean that's the thing that keeps my heart beating the the hard part is coming from a private company um your ability to say what you want and you know have more freedoms and acting um becomes quite a bit different the day

you become public um you know always have to think who's watching who's listening recording uh have i said this publicly does do people know um and it does take a significant amount of brain turning to think about your answers sometimes um you know that's to me the downside and you know being able to run as fast as you want when you're private is a benefit it's also a downfall because you don't get outside investors you don't get um you know money in that way but the freedom of being able to run as fast as you want and break things um is also better but i wouldn't change it for the world uh yeah honest it's been it's been a exciting ride it's been exciting to evolve the business evolve the structure bring in so many amazing employees

um but i just love watching the smile on an employee's face when their shirt says sci-fly and they compare it to the gym they wear it on an airplane they wear it they wear it and it just makes you proud it's like yeah i helped build that and how many times in your life do you get to do that yeah i know i know that that i mean i don't know that feeling but i know what you're talking about um i i have to ask how much um this is a this is something that i was always wondering is i've worked also at a public gaming companies and sometimes the narrative about how the company is doing is set by the analyst and the stock price and not the realities of the company like not the day-to-day uh that it doesn't reflect the day-to-day and i've i've been in a situation where people feel extremely happy because the stock price is going up and vice versa they feel really bad even though you would put in your quarterly results it's better than the last quarter it's better than the comparable quarter of the last year and the stock tanks and be like and

people like oh my god our company sucks it's like no it it doesn't they just don't believe in the future it's really hard like how do you how do you deal with that because i know that the social casino stocks have been have been hit pretty bad i mean sciplay is not amongst the worst correct uh but some of some have lost yeah half easily yeah more than that like 60 70 percent so i i kind of look at it i i tried to tell the employees executives everything else same the only thing you really really control is the performance of the business you really need to keep blinders on when you're looking at the stock and and to be honest it matters when you sell but if we're all long-term holders because we believe in the business the market does this no matter what you do and if you look at anything in the short term you'll get frustrated and so for us we're not focused on where is it

at today we're focused on where do we want to be two years from today and how what do we need to do today to get us there and so that's the way i want us to think and i think it's the way our company has to think um the market's the market like right now you can't that stacks down 10 some percent right now there's nothing you could do about it there's a war like it is what it is as far as you know the market goes you know we saw inflation last year that we've never seen and it's been such a long and that that's going to affect the market and so focus on what you can control and as long as everyone does that and you execute because don't get me wrong if you don't actually succeed in the numbers and growing then you actually deserve what happened um and so that's that is the best thing i could give or advice i could give

anyone is don't do things for short term do not try to write something you have no control over stick to your strategy stick to your morals your values and everything should take care of itself from there yeah yeah i understand it's a it's just hard for people to to see it that way who don't understand a stock market like which is majority of your employees they want that linear progression just like in any business so i'm just thinking like should you kind of like open up the stock history of zynga or glue and be like look they were here then they were there and then they were here it's just like and then they ended up here everything is fine just you know look at the i said look at the s s s s p 500 over time there are times where it's cut in half but it's still at an all-time high that you know it still grows it just this is why you can't look at some things as short-term investments and

hopefully the people that are working for us aren't looking at it as short-term investments they're looking at it as this is where i want to be the rest of my life so let's grow this thing over value and create a nest egg for myself exactly so regarding that what makes sciplay approach to gaming industry unique like what makes cypress unique company i have to start with culture at just the fundamental of who we are uh it's about the people um we want to have relationships we want to uh you know be together we want to win together you know um one of the mantras or one of the things that we would talk about is whenever we're going to hire someone it's 51 culture 49 talent and the meaning of that makes a lot of sense as long as you understand that 49

means a rock star but it means you will not let a bad apple into yours just because they're good at their job and because of that we have we maintain people we maintain them over time we're helping develop their career people make great games and great games provide great entertainment great entertainment means that you have the opportunity to have you know to get a customer on the back on the outside because we're an entertainment company we love to say games we love to say games but the reality is we people have so much free time if they open up facebook they're not playing your game they watch a movie they're not playing your game we're competing against we're entertainment and unless you can build entertaining reasons for people to come in doesn't matter but it starts with the culture and that builds to the

experience for the player so i think that's our secret sauce more than most companies i think most companies you know i'm a data company that i'm going to monetize every individual well that's that's great you'll probably make a lot of money but it's going to eventually implode because either your people won't be happy or you'll burn people out um you can have an idea of i'm just gonna have people all over the world and we're just gonna build a game well you have no loyalty and so this is why i think you any company that says we're people first i think has the chance to be a legacy busy business doesn't mean you don't do the other stuff and it doesn't mean you don't focus on the other stuff but should be derivative of talent not the other way around love it um so tell me how do you how do you lead

or is this the right way to say lead culture how do you how do you make sure that the culture that you want psy play to have is being executed not only in the austin uh a studio with 150 people but with uh with uh 450 people in in other cities and on other continents you got even studio here in finland you got one in israel so how do you make sure that that that um that the high level the culture is is what you want it to be you leave by example you can't preach something and not live it i believe that i need to be in every studio i will spend months and every studio especially the larger three that have the most employees every year um and when i'm there i'm there to serve i'm not there to be a boss i'm not there to be the manager i'm there to serve and when they ask for help you give help

when you are around you strike up conversations uh you also find ways to do things outside of the office because you want to strike bonds and so for me if i can make myself approachable to any person in the company i know i've done what i'm supposed to do because at that point they will see that i smile i ask questions i answer questions uh i will go get someone lunch uh we had a company event that was understaffed with bartenders so i wouldn't bartend it for two hours um because it's more important that they got what they want and they were happy and i was able to provide that and so if i can be a servant i think the company everything else will take care of itself super i mean lead by example build bonds stay approachable yeah

yeah wow okay well so let's move on in in your company scaling so it has scaled quite rapidly i mean for from from 400 to 600 um in 2020 in 2021 like last year there was over 100 new people that joined sciplay what's the sort of a secret sauce of scaling companies successful then oh wow uh that is a the trickiest question of all tricky questions because it was immensely easier pre-covet but let's talk about it now postcovid because that's that's the world we live in um onboarding onboarding onboarding and onboarding doesn't mean that you sit down and have a whole bunch of crap sitting at your desk that you get to take home and brag no onboarding is you come in and every person on your team comes and introduces themselves says hi uh different people for the first week

or so offer like hey do you want to have lunch together even if it's over video hey you know you take your lunch i'll take mine let's sit over video let's talk it's about striking that relationship now don't get me wrong you still have to have the onboarding of the job um but if you do that right it shouldn't be immensely difficult um what we you know most people seventy percent of their onboarding is almost the exact same thing where do i go where do i get code from where do i go get files from where do i like these are the normal questions that get asked let's create videos for them let's have videos sitting there that explain the the easy stuff that you just need to know and then while you're doing that we supplement the rest with onboarding the culture because that is first and foremost onboarding the culture

from there i mean retention because it doesn't matter how many people you hire if you can retain the ones that you brought in um i think you have to be very very fast in making sure that you made a good decision when you did bring someone in and then recruiting recruiting recruiting but i think recruiting and employee branding are very much like tied together the difference in our company over the last three years to today because sci play is now becoming more and more known especially in austin and israel where we no longer have to explain to people what we do when they come in they're like wow i see sciplay see on billboard hopefully they say i saw i saw your ceo on a podcast

it gets people excited to come work for your company um and so when they come in they have that good feeling already and so i think it's there's not a thing you can do it's like if you don't execute on everything right now people are going to leave anyways yeah onboarding retention and recruitment so regarding onboarding i was just thinking about like i've had the uh probably the worst onboarding ones i'm not going to mention the company they work really hard to uh to hire me but then uh when that actually happened i remember coming to the office and the office was on the other continent so it wasn't like close by okay and nobody even said hi like like i was just like i would come in and like there were a couple of people that knew that i was coming but but pretty much felt like alone like not only alone that i was on the other side of the world but

it was uh it was really weird so onboarding is super important because that's the first impression that's when you meet everybody that's when you you want to leave your first day feeling that i can't wait to come back to talk more to all these people absolutely like a hundred percent like you know they whether they say first first impression is 70 percent of any relationship it's the same thing with where you work i mean where you work you're in a relationship i mean it's it is like we spend more of our time with our colleagues most of us than we do our spouses and our kids and because eight hours a day the kids are all kids are only awake a few hours it is what it is like it is you don't if you don't work on your side to build that relationship and we can't expect the new person to be the one to facilitate that it has to be on our side and it's not about stuff

it's about attitude yeah how do you uh so i understand the recruitment and and employer branding those are important parts but what about retention like what are the uh the key elements for people retention because money is not like you can put in golden handcuffs on people but we know those people with golden handcuffs it's not you know they're they're they have the golden cages that's not the best best employee yeah 100 um once again the last two years changed the world again um the last two years we went from literally i could probably name every person in our company and i probably had shaken every person's hand to all of a sudden we have like 200 people and i've met in person 20 of them um because traveling like everything became more difficult less time in the office so on so on and so retention of employees change now you

also have the fact of at home work and if i'm going to work at home and someone just offers me more money i just take it and go because i already have that same work environment anyways um and so for us i think it's going to cut it caused us to change our priorities some companies are hey if you come work for us you get three meals a day if you come work from us we're gonna give you a phone here we're gonna i don't believe anyone went to work for items like that's not it's not how i grew up i don't believe it's the thought when anyone leaves a company rarely do they say it's because you didn't give me enough food um so we're going the opposite way and we're going to say we're going to take most of our culture money and we're going to invest it in management training career development career path mentorship

like we want to create a system that allows people to grow with our company and not sit back and wonder when i'm when when am i going to get promoted or what do i need to do which means you also have to have like candid feedback and you have to have good loops um on reviews and so where we didn't have to do that as much in the past because our culture was so great being together that loyalty is what drove it we're we're shifting because if you asked anyone number one my number one goal on my board is retention of employees that is number one it's not revenue it's not ebitda it's retention of employees and so every everything i do and every start is okay how is this how is this going to make a difference and i i wish i knew today that a hundred percent it's gonna work and let's go

um time's going to tell but i i feel like it's the best bet that a scipy could ever make is investing in people yeah so um i want to ask you regarding that because you're so easily accessible as a ceo how do you still in your company do you still push for work from home or kind of like a hybrid work or are you are you looking to get everybody back into the offices i hybrid is absolutely the direction um i i think the extremes are going to be done um i don't know you know like with that said two years ago everyone was in an office five days a week what happens two years from today i'm not sure but what i would say what i know right now is hybrid is the direction um we believe in hybrid because of our culture uh there are certain things that

we believe you have to be imp person in order to excel at uh communication um creativity um you know the best ideas don't happen during scheduled meetings the best ideas happen at random times at random conversations when someone sees something on a web page like and it's hard to do that without being in person and then last is bonds you cannot create a bond with someone just talking to them once a week for an hour over video that just doesn't happen and so for those reasons we believe in order to um fully invest in our core values which is what we do as a company we need to be in the office two to three days a week and then the other two are remote you know work where you want you know more individual contributor days is kind of how i think about it

um you know we we could be productive working from home i don't that's that i'm not doubting but we wouldn't be sciplay and so to me it's more important to be sciplay than it is to be just a revenue driving company that's uh that's a very you know i i very much like how you put it because i feel 100 the same way i've you know i do that the same in our own company and i haven't haven't invested in companies that that are 100 remote because it feels like they're contract i mean it works if you're on if you're some kind of a specialist organization consultants stuff like that of course but if you're trying to make something together uh i kind of don't believe in that and with the hybrid you have to be on location you have to be living in austin or somewhere nearby austin so you can come to the office couple of days a week regarding retention i was actually yeah so with retention i kind of i was i was out i was actually interviewing somebody today and uh

and i kind of wrote down some of the things about this stuff what i've found out is i don't know if you find this uh that work as well but but uh the person mentioned and many people have mentioned the same thing is like four things that that were really like making them retain first one was the communication inside the company uh meaning that that there's a certain type of communication style that's different with other people but uh but some people prefer very direct communication some people prefer others but but that's you kind of have to find the company that communicates the way you like safety to try so basically ability to learn new things ability to fail and trying something new ownership super important you you own what you make and you're not just a clog in the machine you can actually influence your work and and uh and final one was what you mentioned uh you mentioned bonds she mentioned uh friendships yeah uh which is like people mention it as an extra but it's not really it's actually pretty big because you become a part of a community it's not a plus thing it's

actually one of the most crucial things because if you work with people who you truly enjoy working with leaving that place would be extremely sad because you would be leaving friends like i think everything she said i i 100 i would the only thing i would also add is what does the company stand for yeah i think everything she said is probably mine one two three four and then also you know and being the ceo i get to say like what am i who do i stand for what do i stand for and so i i almost should change my original answer like you asked me what the great part is that great like i get to make a difference in communities on things that i'm very passionate about and so that that is the other thing i do think especially this newer generation that is coming into the workforce um they want to feel like they're making a difference yeah yes with everything

sometimes too much difference like not every food choice has to has to be about making a difference in the world um so uh when you're scaling sciplay how important it is not only you know like of course focusing on people is super important but how important is for you to focus on diversification of your portfolio because as i said i assume that uh that social casino is one of the uh one of one of those genres that are having trouble with uh with the privacy changes because it's a very whale driven uh not a lot of organics um you know and you know performance marketing is extremely important and cpi's being what they are so i'd say it's very very important um not because i don't believe social casino will continue to grow and i think we're going to continue being a market leader in growth um i have you know i i believe we'll continue beating that market um

one because we develop great games uh two because we run great games but also because our secret sauce on the you know the growth side or the marketing side gives us great returns which allows us to continue investing um it does make sense to continue to invest in other genres not because we have to but because i want to grow faster and i think that's more of the key to it is you know i start putting a tentacle out you know we bought ellictus which is an amazing amazing company the founders are like i i feel like they're myself like siblings like we just were cut from the same people it's amazing um but they have that mentality of go go go go we're going to grow we're going to do it as a team we're going to take market share um there are so many genres out there out there like that from puzzle to match

3. and the great news is most of them overlap with our player demographic you know and i know this because we mark it on their game like we're finding customers on candy crush we're finding customers um in their world which means we understand how they behave so if we get as we get into these markets we believe we can take the learnings and social casino is i think years ahead of where the others are and understanding their player um we monetize higher we convert more people the tenure of the people is longer like part of that is because how we treat them inside of our ecosystem it isn't you know when you get it especially when you get into a lot of people who just want to make games you know this is one of the fundamental things i see

um company goes builds a game as soon as they release that game they're thinking about their next game you're not thinking well i just built a business that can be here for 10 years how do i continue maintaining my customers for those 10 years and part of that is a company dna part of that is a individual dna but social casino never went that way social casino was always i'm gonna release this and this is going to be here for 10 years and so that put us so far ahead maybe even king did it right it put out candy crush it grew so far and then here comes two here comes candy saga here comes and now what they're doing is focusing on the first one because they realize that wow we could continue growing this like this is a franchise like this is the walmart of video games like this thing could grow forever and it's not that you shouldn't build new games

um but it shouldn't be at the sacrifice of something that could grow today otherwise all you're doing is replacing revenue that's most likely less profitable yeah yeah yeah so so you mentioned overlapping audiences and acquisition and that that's kind of like an important part and and we've had people from platika and they've discussed the same thing like it's very important to not only build your portfolio in the sense that you're selling to investors that hey we're going we're going to rpg and we're doing you know mid core or sports it's like it's it's much more methodical you're looking at where your audience is coming from and where you can where you can actually grow your own games by bringing these games into your portfolio and then of course the operational skills of acquisition and monetization is bar none yeah we feel like we have a competitive advantage as long as we stay inside of our demographic as we start going outside of our demographic it's not that we can't do it and it's we will be successful but we need to bring

in more talent that has experience in that so we can build that muscle memory internally also perfect uh before i let you go josh what are the plans for sciplay for the future and uh for listeners because this is a professional podcast so everybody listening works in games yeah uh what are your recruiting efforts like who are you looking for in in the future wow uh people people i know this is gonna sound cheesy so i'm gonna just start with it's gonna sound easy but i think it makes it i think it's okay um i think there's two kinds of people in there um there's a person that wants to learn something and when they decide they want to learn it they go home they google it they youtube it they pick up a book they go and they teach themselves and they go and they teach themselves and they go and then there's another type of person that wants to walk into a door and says what

are my check boxes for the next thing what are my checks what are you going to teach me and i want the first person i i want people that have the drive to make themselves the best they can be i want to support them in that i want to help them get it i want to unlock every door in the world but unless you have the passion to do it yourself it doesn't matter what i do like it just doesn't matter and so if you know we want more you know we want ua we want growth we want retention we want analysts we want product managers we want engineers growing in all all departments so i don't think a person is that i want a behavior and i think that's what we're doing is we're looking for people that have that hunger and that culture and you know we know once we get them that we can help groom them into greatness um but i think that's that that would be my recruiting pitch but it would also be

my thing to individuals that's that's how i ended up where i am today not because someone said you need to go do this you need to go do this it was that looks interesting i'm gonna go learn and you know i went from customer service to ceo yeah so um i'm gonna put in a link in the description of this podcast with open positions at sciplay but of course there's uh probably open applications so feel free to reach out uh and i do have to say josh that even though you're a public or a ceo of a public company and i've talked to several of those you're perhaps one of the most open ones if not the most open one so uh in terms of your your goal of being accessible yeah uh even through this podcast i think i think you're nailing it thank you thank you very much i i think it's important to be authentic and no like this is who sciplay is and i feel like this is who i am so yeah but

it's also important for listeners to understand who haven't worked in public companies that when like their limitations what you can say and um and it's difficult when when in the back of your mind you have to think about what if you're saying too much you start start sounding like a politician yeah so that that's a problem i agree all right thank you everybody for listening thank you josh for for joining the podcast