The future of mobile esports

[Music] yeah before we start probably good to do a very brief introduction of our panelists I am I've noted most of you here in the room have been following pretty much all of the talk so you probably have seen quite a few of the people here on the panel but brief introduction Nick Sherman of game insights I did a talk earlier which I think most of you have seen Heine from met mate before that she was with super evil Megacorp which most of you will probably know from the the Mobile eSports game vainglory so she could provide quite small so if like insights on that then we've got Kim from emoji games we could like talk a little bit more about sort of like trends in eSports and also how that this sort of like evolving into something called decentralized eSports so LAN needs no

further introduction it's just been speaking and representing jinkx TV and I know you've probably seen before during his earlier talk of eSports calm and before that he was with ESL so we have a sort of like a pretty frakked experienced and broad panel and who can talk in depth about eSports now the talks that you've seen earlier are partially about sort of like eSports in general to a large extent sort of like eSports on desktop or or console and what we hear to explore is like talk about the future of eSports but particularly talk about the future of eSports like on mobile most of the people here attending at PTC of mobile developers mobile publishers somehow involved in mobile and I think it would be interesting to see sort of like what trends are people seeing in the market where mobile is getting sort of like to

become like a large part of the the eSports pie and also I think which will be interesting for mobile developers is to think a little bit about like what can you you sort of like so if like so if like be part of that as a mobile developer and and what can you do to sort of like enhance the development of mobile eSports so I think it's probably good to Soph like start off with sums of questions for the panelists and I it would be great if you have questions to Soph like there will be time for questions I don't know what do you want to do that at the end or okay all right well in that case I think it would be more interesting if you have questions just raise your hand and someone will get you a mic okay so I think the more interactive the discussion is the more interesting it will be I'm so kicking off with the fennel I mean we've all seen the presentations and it's all

pretty clear that eSports is big business mobile games is big business and mobile eSport is is a growing business but the question is could it be a larger opportunity and just sort of like interested to hear your thoughts on if so what is there to be done to sort of like make mobile eSports sort of like bigger than it currently is and maybe we could kick off with you on it we have 40 minutes right yeah I think I've mentioned some of those points in in my presentation already I think there are reasons why mobile eSports hasn't really kicked off yet and some of them are technical so latency and and connectivity stability is like two major issues in Mobile eSports but also the difference in devices input and and how

you actually perform a game with a mobile device and then I also think just haven't been the right games yet in eSports some of them were like adoptions or like ways to try out how to actually do that how to move it from PC to mobile but I think the the real success factor is really going to be that one guy or that one team that starts focusing on similar but very different experience that you can have on a mobile device when it comes to playing competitively and we all know it's super complicated it would be much easier someone asked the question about one versus one it would be much easier if it was just one versus one but instead it's it's rather going to be a team so four versus four or five versus five game and that adds

so much more complexity and realizing that on a mobile device is much more difficult and on on the PC now I don't want to take too much time for this one question but but I think there is a lot of opportunity for mobile eSports and we just have to find the right approach and think since Mobile is much more casual than a PC or PC gaming I think that's also possible or maybe the right way to look at it how can I develop a more casual mobile esports type of experience but still keep up to the key requirements that I talked about earlier earlier like it has to be skilled skill based it has to have a steep learning curve and all these these things to actually make this eSports experience happen yeah I think I think there's one

point that I also want to make I think speaking about the future of mobile eSports you kind of have to look at it a little bit east and west in the East I think it's already happening I was just digging some data I mean King of glory which is the the eastern version of arena valor they're peaking at 20 million viewers for their eSports so it's already happening there and there's a lot of viewership perhaps because the region is more more kind of mobile dominant to begin with but in the West I agree with all the points that you make I think there's we're still waiting for that right title and we're still waiting for that right format I think even with vainglory I think one of the big mistakes we made with our eSports we were so stuck with what Sports is that we kind of didn't look at innovating enough because in the end people don't want to watch eSports especially a mobile game for eight hours straight so think we thinking the format into more of a I don't know what the solution is if it's a video on-demand type of thing or like more snippets and you know keep it a little bit more shorter I think clash royale is doing a lot on this side but anyway yep and I

think that's where mobile developers should maybe sort of like start to think a little bit like about innovation so I'm the different format that is a little bit more like fewer friendly and maybe sort of like technically more suitable for for mobile so in a way when I heard questions about well why can't it be like a 1vs1 type of eSports game or why can't it be turn-based I mean I guess if you get the game right there's no reason why it could it be I mean I take a game like chess I mean it's hugely popular I mean someone at some point might nail it in the right way and it might even be interesting to you so if like watch I don't know what your thoughts are wrong yeah thank you so what I think is that the problem is not in on the game side because what I think is that any game could be eSports any competitive game could be eSports but the problem is

visit the mobile eSports in particular is that we need to wait until people will take it seriously because I can't imagine the kid who says to his mom I am NOT going to college I will play mobile phone right because eSports is a kind of profession you should you know focus just on this thing and you know drop all the other activities you had before you had to spend you had spent not hours but days and weeks for example attending your bootcamp with the teammates and that's something you should take real issues and again now I cannot imagine that situation that's why I'm happy to disagree finally I like pencils where there's some disagreement you're right when you when

you talk about like the pro level in eSports but I think we're esports still developing right now is to to the casual and mainstream level and just like in traditional sports not everyone has to be in a training camp or week to play the the finals of Champions League or to be successful in the Premier League or Bundesliga I think that it where eSports is going right now is the more mainstream side where you don't have to do exactly what you just described only if you become an aspiring a pro gamer and if you're really going to end up as a programmer in one of the top teams but there's there are so many people out there that don't necessarily want to be that but they will will still want to enjoy these boards playing competitively and all the social aspects that we heard about that gaming and eSports is about so I think yes true for a high end pro

side of things but I think we're gonna see much much more than that in the future yes exactly but that's not about professional eSports I mean it's exactly something mainstream for example I'm a runner like I ran marathons but I am not a professional one okay so I cannot compete for winning marathon but I just enjoy participating so that's this kind of stuff yeah and you know even if you if you don't want to be the best in math on you would still compare your times to your friends that do the same so they would do the same kind of sports on a much lower level so the competition and the comparison would always be there but you would never want to be like the fastest man in the world right yeah so it's still about the definition maneet about the definition of what is eSports and I think that the point that are animated it's it's not necessarily about being the pro pros of like top tier player and and also I think the point

that Solon made you her talk Eastport is getting a lot more about sort like the social interaction and I think mobile developers might be in my view it's off like at a slight advantage there because they're so used to sort of like catering for an or for an audience which is all about social and social interaction so be be curious to hear sort of like what you guys are seeing in the slightly more casual social end of competitive gaming and eSports okay and I said my name you can see that came it's the most of Koreans 30% surnames Kim so when I walk on the street maybe you're Korean yes I'm Korea so in other when you see the Korea this is some kind of back to this night this is 2018 so back to the 20 years ago it's 1997 1998 at the time what's happening in Korea

and you see the Wikipedia there's a Asian finance crisis happen this is something like or the bang bang crop in Asia is very wrong long story 20 more than 20 years ago so at the time another at the time if you think I was in Korea so something a kind of happened so people they don't want kind of stopped any financial expense they stopped it like a traveling they stopped it everything this is what's important kind of saving the coast but what how to do it you know the people they want to enjoy the time this is a way suddenly beating started this name is a PC bang bang stamp of the room so may they made some kind of some space they set up the computer system and they just plug in the LAN cable and then at the time Corey said happened this is very important Starcraft yeah circled over there and the equals this is true to factor is there

something happen because stack of sucker bit over there and the PC bang over there is combined is chemical happen and all of teenager I wasn't innate about all people there crash the crazy there love play that game is together so they don't want to go outside because then you go outside during the air color they spend a lot of money but just play the game the charge by our this very cost saving and they very enjoy this is kind of turning point in City East but the story isn't yet big Tony pointed 1997-1998 from the Korea and then this is a big impress to the teenagers is yes oh my god this is so one of the eSports but very funny thing when I was at the time 20 years ago this is an eSports my friend bear laughing they are laughing do you think about this eSports hahaha this left hand but nowadays when you mentioned an east boot is better than she where fence is very something like a nice into something so this is something

text time more than 20 years yeah this timing is more than 20 years and sure I wasn't living in UK around 8 years when I passed to the hito airport at the time I'm holding the Korean passport and when I passed immigration they giving to question always officer what do you do just eight years ago eight to ten years ago what do you do my job is selling the mobile game and she said the officer what what is mobile game yes I said my job is selling the mobile game and she said yeah I heard I thought my son played the game on the mobile phone just just time 8 to 10 years just time to eight eight to ten years and nowadays when you measure the mobile can we all people know it with what's a mobile game there's a reason innovation is suppose a PC and Starcraft 2 started 20 years ago nowadays time past 20 years and the

mobile game which is just started last seven to eight years I think this next need a time you know the I know the many issues as a baby I have to maybe open some information because another main picture in the photo mobile industry like a union see the you are using the most opening the Android handset from the Google and the iOS from the Apple but another something behind this thing they want to control it behind no to I just say the two monopolies I'll do pretty the 2d operate is the kind of any social gaming platform and you start the company I want to show it they carried yep so it's okay so getting a little bit back mobile social and and eSport is about saw-like viewing and sharing and be curious to hear a little bit more from salon and high knee about like how

to get sort of like media involved and and I mean particularly how high a did that at vainglory look like the challenge is there because I think that could be quite enlightening for game developers and and also from salon or like our mobile developers sort of like overlooking like traditional TV and are they missing a trick here I can go first I mean to talk about the vainglory side so I may be kind of the social side I think something that we really leaned heavily on and I think that was the one of the things that we did right was the community level and the casual tourneys that were happening outside of anything official and then once we started working on our own official program we actually utilized a lot of that know-how and I hired hired two guys to actually actually join the company and I think kind of the mobile social aspect where it's easy for people to play a game together in a room because we all have our phones out anyway I do think that plays into it and

then with with regard to your your media a question I do think there's a lot of interest from the press on mobile eSports it's just kind of kind of like what the eff like a lot of people so if you can tell a good story about like no no like this is legit this is real and then especially once we started getting like teams involved like cloud and eyes and stuff we had good turnout and we worked with jinx TV for a London event as well and it was great so actually it's fun that gene vainglory is the only mobile game developer who contacted jinx broadcast tournament with a real event and something that we could create content event and we content around and we send a team what I find it interesting is that we just discussed how each part is how big it is when actually how many of us do have a gaming computer at home and something that allows you to play why how many of us have mobile in our pockets and we can play all day long and whenever we want I also think that people are over thinking

the eSports games on mobile and there might not be a title as big as dota 2 league of Legends but I to me there will be more mobile games and different games and different communities maybe smaller than the ones we see on PC but I really think that the and I know for sure that there's an appetite for mobile games on traditional and on media and she's very recently we had very little content available for her to broadcast as a TV channel we need high quality content we need week on broadcast a mobile screen basically it is changing and we are as media also ready to push it and bought and promote it as much as we can it makes sense for everyone traditional media is consumed on mobile it's on it's only natural for us to broadcast and promote this kind of content and and and Arnim maybe you guys look like look like to tie in to that so if you're a mobile developer and you've got a competitive

game and you start to see sort of like pick up from the community that they're organizing their own little sort of like matches and tournaments I mean what suits off like game developers look to do sort of like next if they want to sort of like so if like amp up the volume of their of their game first of all I think what Solon said is absolutely right so you don't necessarily have to know target and aim to become the next daughter to a league of Legends that's really not necessary and and from a game developer perspective I think I always like to call it you have to be eSports ready so you should not try to develop an eSports title but if you have eSports in mind because your gameplay is designed in the right way you should prepare for the necessary steps that need to be taken so there's technical aspects you have to take into consideration which I think by now most people are aware of there's a few more things you need to

take into consideration because it's mobile so you have to find multiplayer back-end solutions that that help you cope with the problems of a mobile device when it's not turn-based but I think the biggest the biggest hurdles are is how to deal with the community and how to involve the community into where your game is actually going and it's to me it's like live operations of a standard free-to-play game but more complex mmm because it requires even more resources and it requires even more listening and caring then you normally do when you have a working monetization model and you say well these few people here I don't care too much about their complaints because you know everybody else loves it but the community and especially in the in the early stages of your game they will decide whether the game will take the root of eSports or

whether it won't so working with them and using them and this has been said a couple of times use your community and make them part of your team so integrate them as an external extension of of your team to do community to become shout Carter shoutcasters streamers moderators some of them may even become your new community managers and some of them will eventually become producers if you grow even bigger like we've seen with Nick's example where suddenly you know you you're running not only go for Cap's online but you turn them into live events and yes you can use you can use tournament organizers and production companies but you also have to have knowledge and experience in-house to deal with all these things and you have to use them as a feedback channel to to how you want to you know further develop your game and structure your game as it

grows and becomes more of an eSports have some selectivity from opinion it's not totally different slightly actually eight years ago I made it similar platform the name is spoken arena and I had the auto plan for me I spent a lot of money to make a whole system like iOS Android everything I made it the problem was when I walk with Twitter I came and I need a game developer I didn't make it I didn't about the game I just provided a platform like eject a social function everything I just added the problem was when I work with together that I delivered all of I for free to our bridges partner its game developer they say no I cannot use it so I said is there any problem and any function is not enough something no no no this is not important the important is relation with Google and Apple to the main key why because a new work is a pro they

they say oh why don't use apple juice a game center and another another game came support they said we cannot use this one why because if you don't adapt your platform the power is to relation is Google app Google Google guru team why because of this top game developer there is the feature that came on the App Store this is a way how to disable the cost marketing saving just a reality so the reason I talk to this company modern Street for years and then talking and talking and I decided maybe stopped this service I lost a lot of money more than 5 million US dollars 5 million you know do you can guess about how many people I hire a lot of people a to the marketing I just talking and then in the talking and talking and sorry in that five man 4 million for me 2 million yesterday this is something like very suffering this is something I have some a little anger like something

like Google and after why they're always cut and kill and something the behind something like up so this is something something behind some reason with the compared to PC a lot of freedom you know there's a lot of freedom I can do them you know you see the Thompson condition you Aaron Google store epi' to suit or something event the marketing they need oh yeah agreement okay yeah sort of like that that was some time ago I think so for games on mobile that ISIF like being played competitively and I'm massively popular I'm I don't know hiney we're a year so if like seeing similar problems but I I guess for most games that's we sort of past that point I would hope yeah I mean I think Apple and Google are incredibly important relationships especially for for you know getting downloads and getting I don't mean van Gloria has a has a deep love affair with Apple which has been very good for us but on the community building side I do

think there's amazing tools nowadays there's the discourse there's the Twitter's there's the forums even if you're a mobile game you can do so much outside of Google and Apple and I think especially for the eSports side there's there's tournament for example that's really good there's there's a ton of different and often free tools to use for for that side yeah just for you temper you know that I want to try something a ban and I must submit the I must pass the Google app or another agreement now prove it this is delay they don't give an answer I just wanted to tell what happened just okay just fixed a time like this detecting event after fall after two months and then they don't give any clear answer to and sometimes the three months delay and then we're very offset and then you know I want to contact with them you cannot contact only sent the email I want to know contact to their phone number no phone number just closely hiding and this is something real situation you know the I couldn't I need the event is impossible okay we

have to await iOS this is something different point we ended up and you see the PC this is a lot prettier can we can control it but this is what is what is this is the main point another tweet something or like something is okay cat your game is fine casual event something like girl like something very casual game and they're not not connected their penis it's not related their business is fine but any related deputies they always block it like or something any peak something is nowadays another one of you know the venue I saw the article Pocket Gamer the fortress is to downloading a lot is the apk deliberately HP apk file you know the thesis or something right the right decision why because the main keys we have to another kind of sacred by the Google and Apple store and then next step is a lot of freedom you can control it it's a kind of who who can control the power so if it is I mean

it's I mean I like to sort of keep it so if luck to the future of eSport rather than the future of the apps towards the future if suppose especially most of people using the mobile phone there's a future is suppose the key is is kind of independent from the Apple and Google again you can control the power after that you can do whatever just kind of community and then this is my opinion so maybe some people may be different feel but this is a rage rage against goggle and Apple I don't know I think we have panels about the the App Store discussions at pretty much every mobile conference and I think it's yes we have we know there are problems there are hurdles big hurdles overcome but it's on a different level I think I think what we are trying to do here is to figure out how in a game and we have to do all the relationships like honey said with

with the big guys but how to turn a competitive multiplayer game into an eSports and I don't think that Google and Apple are like the the hurdles because you already have to jump over those hurdles before you can start talk about eSports so if you aren't I said this earlier in my presentation your game has to have a viable monetization model it needs to you know be well balanced so you can make money with it before you can even you know think about investing into eSports but I'm pretty sure I can confirm that in the beginning you only paid into eSports so it was just paying and not making my yes that's total true so and it's of course I mean again I have many complaints about platforms because as I said gonzo boom unfortunately has this the

board guns in its name and it's a huge pain for us and even if not taking the name but even the icon of the application is also always a problem because we tend to you know every once in a while I mean put in you I can enter the store and it's always a problem because for example in Google first of all they told us that we cannot use real weapons so on the icon so we put on the icon a guy who just aimed with his fingers ok like that ok so after that they said that we cannot use this guy because he's aiming in a real person so ok we make him aiming into the target so then they said us that we cannot use this icon because the target a kind of

similar to a real person I mean the forward oh the target so it's always always some kind of thing but it has nothing to do with the eSports to be honest yeah so maybe I'm a see some questions popping up in the room and I as we only have some like less than 10 minutes the good see stuff like address a few of the questions in the room sort of hurt myself for asking this but I'm going to ask about for tonight because Ram Ismail who was talking yesterday about how it's not a game that was like specifically made for mobile phones and it suffers from many of the limitations you were mentioning like you obviously get connectivity issues if you're on the go etc but it's like the number one game right now and what do you think we can learn from it so like instead of trying to think about how good the perfect game for mobile phones be if me you have to think as well like can we get things from games from other platforms and turn this into sort of big

eSports maybe in mobile phones as well do you mind if I quickly to me and I'm so I'm Mac I'm at the marketing segments in jinks and to me for tonight is brilliant example of how a marketing strategy works perfectly a fortnight became popular suddenly when someone it's ninja with Drake started playing and everyone started talking about it and suddenly it's okay to be a gamer and you're not a nerd if you spend two hours playing on your mobile and I think it is brilliant that they didn't try to reach only the eSports in but they presented themselves to the casual gamers as very good eSports games and they made it okay for everyone to play and certainly everyone thinks that they are his pals gamers and they are just actually playing fortnight to add to that a little bit with regard to what can we learn from other platforms on mobile I think honestly we can learn that that multi-platform can work but a direct port from PC to mobile never

works I mean vainglory I think it's a MOBA that was made for touch but it's still very much a PC format of a game which comes with complexities on the performance side it was fine because the engine was so good proprietary tech so I do think like one thing that is very very important for mobile eSport and if you want to become a viable mobile expert is figure out how to get the tech bit to work and if you want to talk about Wi-Fi and getting Layton's free Wi-Fi at events I have the guys who could do that but there's a lot of like that kind of stuff I think we could we can learn but in the end taking taking a game from another platform importing it does it work maybe you guys disagree with me but yeah kind of have to be mobile first and in my point of view hey thank you first of all for a really good panel I'd be enjoying your goal actually I'm doing a mobile eSports offline tournament here in Finland which started last week lasting for eight weeks and ending at the game Expo finals my idea

behind that is actually building up the mobile eSports culture I would love to hear what is your I like how do you see what's the what's the biggest ingredient of building the culture because now actually we have interested publishers companies we got community doing things but what do you see is the most important thing actually build up the culture three things in my opinion get money involved if you have a big prize tournament people are for sure gonna be interested if there's a hundred thousand euros on the line like even my mom might be interested right to get the press involved getting getting the mainstream media getting some sort of angle for like MTV three all motive it to give a damn I think think is critical and then three have fun make it super fun and make it inclusive I think one one thing that with eSports that bothers me is how polished it is and how kind of

it looks like it you have to be so good to get there that I'm kind of you know push to back but if you can make it more inclusive and more fun I think that's the three things I don't know you I know you might have extra yeah I think that word production quality is being used a lot especially for the big events and and you'll see thousands of complaints if something goes wrong no matter what tournament organizer we talk about but I've been at events in the u.s. that were very community driven that were even based on playing on super old consult and and TV monitors I hadn't seen in years and probably my father hadn't seen but like super old basic equipment but you could see that the community there was having such a fun in such a blast and it didn't really have like this super organized tournament structure so people were playing in small teams they could qualify for a lot

around in the end they would play on stage and they had a lot of fun it even was live on on twitch TV and a couple of hundred in for the final even thousand people watched and I think that shows that if you do the right thing for the right title then just get the community involved use social media as much as you can and try to to do that that we heard about earlier it's about the people the people are coming there to have fun the people are there to you know to socialize to speak to other people so try to make them interact try to get them deeply involved at some of those events you would see people that come out of their caves that normally just don't go out but they do this because it's their thing it's their game and they too want to be social maybe they are not the most social people in the world but if you just happen to find the right approach and be inclusive I like that a lot then

it can work that's sorry hello yeah I think earlier on there was a point raised between Anna and Nikita and I think that was probably one of the best points about the future of mobile eSports I think a lot of people right now view it as something that's very professional like a lot of cameras highly polished big rigs but going back to the casual side of it and if you think the future does look casual how does that look are there like eSports arenas and are they popping up in your town or in your high street or is it just people playing from home and if it's just people playing from home like how do you define mobile eSports is is it people gathering in the same place or or is it just people playing from home and it has to get more people will start playing at home and this is how you

actually build a community and get their interest and you have to be able to provide an online platform for people to do that and not only just play but again interact and become social about it but what we see everywhere in the world is these little arenas or clubs where people come together and play or eSports bars and play together and start doing just a local very easy tournaments on a weekend so they know Saturday afternoon they can go to that eSports bar and play their favorite game with other people and they have to sign up first so it's very mmm handmade organized tournaments but it gets people involved and over time things will just grow into into more organized structures into bigger events and eventually become something bigger and as we heard it doesn't necessarily have to be the 15,000 people arena event but if one day you suddenly have two hundred thousand people in a room 200 people in a room

that watch your your tournament then you'd be super happy because it's it's an achievement and it's an it's an evolution in what you're doing and and I can tell you back in the early days of eSports in the early ESL events when we had 200 people either watching online or being in one room together or at Gamescom or something like that we were so proud we couldn't have been any prouder this was like the biggest achievement of our lifetimes and suddenly it wasn't 200 anymore it was 500 and we couldn't believe it was 500 and it went on and on like this and now we have these numbers of millions of people at a weekend this is like something we never dreamt maybe we dreamt off but we never thought would realize okay this'll help I think I'm being cued here that we are about to wrap up do we have one last question or

yeah so we have a game called battle and soil which where we think is kind of eSports friendly and if you haven't downloaded it yet and played it yet then you definitely should it's available on the very popular Google and app stores but yeah my main question which has kind of been touched upon just now I was like what do you think are the key steps to take to get started and like what are the main lessons that you've learned or like any any takeaways from like any failings that you don't regret doing but you've learned a lot from it yeah I think like going back the first eSport event we did and that's probably the one that I remember with like most love and is the first one because we actually didn't have any professional partner later on we work with ESL and stuff but we we just reached out to her community was like hey community volunteers who wants to build an eSport event together with us and that's what we did it was in

eSport arena in Santa Ana back then which hadn't even launched and it was like one of my developers on the camera and you know a couple of friends of ours doing the shoutcasting and like what one of our our CFO was the was the camera operator of our in-game camera it was just volunteer based like even the makeup people were from our community and I think that like it did two things it showed that one our community wants this and two that there is potential here because we had a full house we had ton of people show up and for like people to volunteer their time and hours not only to watch that but to produce the the eSport with us it was just amazing and we still have I'm still close friends with all with a lot of the bing glory community side so I think that was one thing we did well and then too I think we went too quickly from that to working with ESL and stuff which is fantastic like those events were the best that we had production wise but then as we got kind of very professional

very quickly we lost some of that community touch and feel in my opinion and I we should have kind of scaled it with a little bit more patience but you know when you're ambitious and young and doing crazy stuff you just want to go hard but that's maybe one of the things is like take it you know take baby steps maybe it's going from 200 to 500 and then to a thousand and not from 200 to 5,000 yeah be patient is something that is super important because you know things usually don't happen overnight and there's so many things you have to take into consideration and the growth of your player base and spectator base will actually mean that it becomes more complex to fulfill the expectations of this drawing audience and it's much easier to work with 200 people and make them happy then working with five thousand fifty thousand five million and so on now on the other hand don't be afraid of making mistakes as long as you're ready to learn from it and be very communicative about it with the community so tell them oh we

figured out we made this mistake we're doing this slightly different now please stay tuned or help us trying to find a solution for this problem and as long as you include the community into those decisions and maybe also into those mistakes they will realize oh it's not that easy it wasn't just your mistake it was also the community's mistake so include the community don't be afraid of making mistakes but you know I'll step by step and don't try to to run wait okay thanks very much thanks guys and yeah thank you yeah round of applause for pizza yawn honor and it keeps us alone and Heidi please thank you thanks guys that was great [Music]