Slipknot's Clown: Building Games Like You Build a Band

Our culture is so ruthless. Just flip on you. Won't even give you a chance. You got to respect the culture one- on-one and really know what it means. I don't go out on stage wondering how many people are out there. I go out there for me and if I'm lucky, I can make eye contact with several
and feel together I'm there to help them get through their life issues. Life is a heavy toll and I want to do good. People need help. I need help. Everybody needs help. [music]
Hello everyone and welcome to Deconstructor of Fun Deep Dive Interview Series. I'm your host Jen Dano. We're joined by a guest who needs no introduction in music but is quickly becoming one of the most interesting new voices in game creation. Sean Clown Craan, co-founder of Slipnot, artist, filmmaker, and now game developer. In

this episode, we dive into a growing trend shaking up in the industry. Artists, musicians, and celebrities who grew up gaming are no longer just endorsing games. They're building studios and investing their own money to create them. What does this mean for the future of game development, creative risk-taking, and the kinds of worlds players will explore next? Clown walks us through the origin of Vern Earth, his new multiode Minecraft realm. A realm like this is a first for Minecraft, and while it's not an official partnership, he's staying in bounds and honoring Minecraft's wishes. Also, kudos to an old friend, Eric Reynolds, who's fostering that relationship, bringing together artist and game company. Good job, Eric. We also touch on the importance of collaboration between artists and developers and how he aims to create a digital space that fosters empathy and community. Clown reflects on his personal experience with grief and how

they influence his creative work, emphasizing the need for authenticity in art. He also highlights the significance of respecting the gaming culture while integrating his unique artistic vision into Verner. It's a conversation about creativity, control, community, and the new wave of unexpected developers reshaping the landscape. As a Metal fan, it was an absolute joy, honor, and privilege to be able to talk to someone at the forefront of what is really just amazing artistry and and now game development. Here is the podcast. Have fun. In today's hyperco competitive digital landscape, understanding your app's journey from discovery to download isn't just insightful. It's the difference between scaling and stagnating. Enter Appslier, the undisputed leader in mobile attribution and marketing analytics. They've mastered the science of making every ad dollar work harder by revealing exactly where your players

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deconstructorof fun.com. Hello everyone and welcome to Deconstructor of Fun deep dive interview series. Today I have Shaun Clown Craan. He is the co-founder and percussionist of the Grammyinning metal band Slipnot and the creative force behind the band's iconic masks and visual identity. He's a multi-disciplinary creator spanning music, film, and now game development, which is why he's here today. Having just launched Ver, a custom multimode Minecraft realm built on over 100 million blocks. Is that true? 100 million? Probably more by this time, right?
Yes. By the way, thank you for having me. [laughter] I'm really glad to be here. So, jumping right in with you. Uh to me that's a small number looking at it now a and knowing just like what a world generator does generate for the experience and it it just is all out. So I I think that's

probably a small number at this moment.
I imagine so.
Yeah.
So Ver continues to be your legacy of merging dark surrealist artistry with new frontiers in creative technology. So, when I checked out the trailer for this, not only are the visuals unlike anything I've seen in a Minecraft realm, but the music is also strikingly haunting with its use of cello. And I noticed this because I am a former chist myself. So, thank you for joining the podcast and also thank you for the cello love. Much appreciated.
Thanks again for having me. Um, you know, gaming and music have gone hand in hand since the beginning of time. I was obviously into music before I was into gaming. I remember when Atari came out the very first day. I was already on this earth and and rolling around with music and um the two have always been together. So the trailer there's no way

to explain what I've done. It's impossible. It takes time and interest. And I look forward to taking the time as people gain the interest to be able to speak the lore of the overall thing. The trailer is very, you know, it doesn't really tell a lot, but that's the beginning of this whole vision. And it is a very surreal mixed media. It's about everything that I've ever tried to accomplish from pros to scoring. I I'm really big into scoring. And a lot of my friends that spend a lot of time with me, they always tell me I should score more. And you know, it's a very complex industry to just go score. But I really love to build atmosphere. And I'm going to use a lot of, you know, classical abilities to do that. Uh, writing. I have a lot of good friends who I believe are masters

of music and we get to sit around and contemplate scores and ambience whether it's light or dark and I get to have it all be driven by a story and and a vision that starts kind of with a thought and then a color and then it goes from there.
I actually wanted to ask you about your gaming background. So, in our pre-in, what I was really impressed with, I had no idea, is the depth and the just the breadth of how much gamedev and modding experience you actually have. I mean, you immediately went from basically a noob to S tier in terms of game industry credibility on our call. I was like, we need to start with this cuz I want the audience to know that you really have been doing this for over 30 years. Can you talk about your early experience with, you know, gamedev and with modding?
It probably all started when I was in uh sixth grade. That would have been 1982.

And I can remember a Macintosh computer coming into the classroom and there was only so many. And at that point, you know, I'm sorry, I don't remember dates, names, or like types, you know, but it was the type that took a five and a half floppy disc, the bigger one.
Yeah. The Apple 2 Pro. That's what I had.
And I remember that the first part of it was to do some very um simple things to get you around learning what you are about to get into. Uh, and one of the things that we did was we made a spider. And the spider would move weird like this. And it just blew my mind that something in your head that you could identify could be brought up on a digital screen. And to that point, I had only had experience with TVs. So now we got

computers. So now you move up to our parents who decide what they will get you for Christmas or your birthday. So all of us got different platforms. One friend got Atari. I had an int television. We all had different stuff. Quake was really the beginning of everything for me because of so many things. A Trent Resner was asked to do all the audio. That blew my mind that people that are deep in music would be asked to collab with their brains. I mean, that's a big thing for a company to ask an artist
what the gun is going to sound like, what the footsteps are going to sound like, what's the lightning going to sound like. They gave him a lot of trust. It must mean they loved his mind and what he had to offer. So that was a big attraction and got me going. But what really got me going was that ID

offered OpenGL.
And by that time, you know, Slipnot was already going in a very raw early form. So I was learning everything. I was learning musical programs. I was learning film programs, writing programs, and HTML programs. Right when I was getting into HTML, Flash dropped. So, I had to learn that.
And none of these things I learned all the way, but enough to pick it up. The only thing that I couldn't stay with this whole career was the HTML, the coding, and the websites. I pretty much, in my opinion, sort of took all the other programs as far as you can take them.
Editing programs like Premiere for film, ProTools, etc., etc. But when OpenGL came out and the culture of Doom and Doom 2 and Wolfenstein and

and now Quake, I had this epiphany and I want to share this with everybody. So the OpenGL was the ability for someone to recognize that there was a grenade launcher. The grenade launcher, I believe, held seven to nine grenades. Well, because people could code now and do their own thing, they took the Rottwaller that chases you down in the game and they replaced it with the grenade. So now you were using the grenade launcher shooting rottw wallers and the rawallers would chase you down and jump at you. So when my best friend would run by and I would shoot empty the grenade launcher, seven to nine rottwallers would chase him down and I would just sit back and watch this player trying to get away from these bots. And then someone took the grenade launcher and we start grenade launchering ourselves up in the air and

I finally learned how to do it. And then they had a catapult thing going and I realized that ID knew we were going to be up there. They had put lights and structures all around in hidden places knowing that we were going to be up there. And I thought that's the greatest reward. That's that's like Christmas. That's 365 days of making the wish and then giving it and then everybody just being blown away. They literally took time in their business to be artistic and go against the corporate ladder and give away the coding for the future of everything. And I was one of them that got hooked. So we used to make our own skins. I've put pictures of my friends on the wall just make them very angry. So anyway, it it

absolutely started with Atari. Well, look, it started with Defender, Robbitron, Stargate, Moon Patrol, uh Track and Field, Pac-Man, Miss Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, of course, Pinball, all that air hockey, all these things. Uh we used to ditch lunch and run up to a a grocery store and and play quarter games, but in television was a little harder than our Atari. So that that brought my thinking up more. But really OpenGL, Trent, id, Wolfenstein, Doom 1, Doom 2, then the revelation of Quake just blew my brain. then getting in the band utilizing all the programs and you know I'm not a big template guy. So if we're doing something for the band online I won't let anybody really bring me a template.

I expect the coding to take place. I expect us to go crack out this template as far as we can. So I'm very interested in the development but you know I don't pretend like I can sit down right now in a visual basic or something and make a lot but I can learn and I have a lot of friends around me who love it and we love just getting our hands wet. And lastly then we joined that organization Unity.
Uhhuh. And Unity, if people do or don't know, at that time when I joined, it was brand new and it was offered to the general public. I signed up for a year, but we immediately paid for a world generator. And then I remember buying a whole bunch of palm trees. And I remember my mind was blown because if you think about it, when all the people got the tech of developing, they all went for these big jobs, but there were

still these people that were wanting to stick around for games and someone who would devote their time making a palm tree and would sell it to the likes of me royaltyfree for $2.99. And I said, I I tell my friend, I want every palm tree they sell. And so we started making it and we got right to the time when we got players. We could play each other on it. And then I had a lot of shifts in life and things got rerouted and I landed into a platform called Critters that was based off a Minecraft engine,
but they were an NFT project. And I don't think they probably ever thought it was going to last the whole time because Minecraft I don't think they like the NFT thing. I think I don't know when they were closing doors, you know, I was like, "Hey, can I get

this? Can I pick it back up?" And and you guys got a wonderful thing and they said in a in a real nice manner, they were like, "No, you can't have it." [laughter] So, I called a real good friend and we bought a server and now here we are 5 years later. And I know that sounds like a lot, but obviously when you have as many years as I do into it at this point, there's a little bit of an upbringing. You know, we could spend a half an hour on every one of those subjects from the computer in sixth grade all the way up to Unity and the the wonderful engine that Minecraft allows and that offers, you know, which is just so wonderful.
Yeah. I love that you hit on, you know, you're an early modder and then you really went into the creator marketplace, you know, experiencing that on Unity and that you have lived through so many of these different eras of gaming and and the other thing that I think is interesting is you were in a whole different area of this from a

business perspective and from a Slipnot perspective. So, as a brand collaborator, what you were able to do with Slipnot, it shows your deep understanding of players, of communities and of gamedev because, you know, back when, oh my god, I I had Guitar Hero and Rock Band. I lived through that era. I think I've played many a Slipnot song in Guitar Hero 3 and Rock Band 3. You worked with Smite in 2022, Dead by Daylight in 2024, Fortnite Festival, which I believe has one of the hardest drumming tracks of any drum song on Fortnite Festival, and then I think you had a few other things with Sega and the Boneless. Uh, but my question comes from in a sense a deep empathy for you as a creative. Often times studios and marketing people like me and game devs, we have a lot of limitations, whether it's time, whether it's tech. So, what advice would you give to those listening, many of those folks today, which are game devs, how do they get the best out of doing a collaboration with an artist or a creative like you who

actually is looking out for it from a creative standpoint and not only everyone would like to make money and that's great, but I think what I always hear from you is how much creative you really want to put into it. So, what advice would you give to people who want to work with folks like you?
Well, thank you for that question. It's a very it's a great question. It's an important question. Um I like the word you used opening up uh limits and I want to start there. That's the number one problem between the left and the right brain is the limits. You start with you know the subconscious of thought and then everybody wants to make it tangible. So it takes the artist to, you know, even if they're a business person or a dev, if they have the initial story, the idea, that's intellectual property, that's data. That's what we're all doing here. It might be the whole reason we are here is to produce data. So what happens? Why all the fences? Why

do the fences go up? Is it the artist is you know not focused can't multitask grandiose you know doesn't understand the fundamental object of money the monetary you know uh what about all these facts of it needs to reach a certain price point and it's got to sell so many by this day or we're just going to drop it you know.
Yep. I've lived this whole thing from the beginning, but everybody needs to understand it. In my career, it started in a practice room with a bunch of friends, and it's never ever been as good as then. Never. Never. Not once
has it ever been better than in that room dreaming the good dream and loving the good love and almost wanting it is almost better than having it because of these limits. You wouldn't believe the limits that everybody wants to put

on an idea that's supposed to change the world, change how people view things, give them a moment because they're dedicating their lifetime to you. You would think that more people would want to listen to the artist because the artist is opening the flower to all the potential. So, it's really the other people's jobs to handle that money, handle that calendar, handle all those deposits and withdrawals, but get out of the consciousness and the subconscious of the color of the art because it's what's driving the whole program.
So, for instance, in the movie business, I've directed a movie. As a director, I've got to take a movie up to a final edit that I sign off on, that I love,
that I want to give to the world.

But it doesn't matter because the companies to be, by no fault of their own, have an investment. They need to do what they believe is right for the project. It's not necessarily good or bad. It's what they feel is best for what we're doing. So, my edit goes away because I'm just the director. I didn't write the script. and all this and they fundamentally have these ideas they might view that I'm overlooking but there's no communication really there's no compromise why did they even let me make an edit to begin with that's a waste of time and waste of money so if you really think about it the limit is the fence and I would say that the leftrainers need to understand that the rightrainers understand that anything worth doing is worth doing for money
because none of what I'm doing is free. In fact, it's just the opposite.
You know, I think people would be very

surprised if I told them what I have into this in order to change their minds in my opinion on how they view the version of, you know, an engine that I've turned upside down for you to see my way. Now, we're going to get that data. I'm going to have hard data to show all the left braers and say, "Hey, you want to put limits, but you don't even have a category for this. I have data being collected just to be able to help take down those fences so I can continue to be an artist and offer what I think." And here's the most ironic thing, and you'll know this.
The resistance is it just hits immediately.
But then,
yeah, in your face.
In your face. But the minute the minute it sees the light and someone can make a penny, then it's a good idea.
You know, if we know that, then it seems

like most of what we invest should be in the human condition that is thinking up these things. Now, I may be a rarity. I may not be a rarity. I actually don't know how many people like myself are out in the game space trying to do what I'm doing or I'm doing what they're doing. I don't have those numbers, but I know it's not a lot because it's difficult and I know you have to be in a position to more or less put your middle finger up and say I'm doing this. And that's what I've done for the last well eight years, but for the last four years, everyone around me has seen me right before I've gone on stage. I've literally had my stuff on and I'm building a cobblestone wall to keep some to keep some zombies out of my, you know, my carrot field or something.
I love that you are like playing in your world in your Minecraft realm like literally and you walk on stage to

perform. I I I want a video of that.
Well, it gets deeper because I'm able to make a lot of things work in tandem. So I can be in the bus working on that and I can actually give permission to someone who could be quite literally been working with me in that environment and now
has gotten tickets from me personally. They're on my list. I throw in some merch, a few sticks of mine. I have people that are with me, greet them, get them good parking, and then well, they are there to enjoy the show and I'm blessed that they'll consider another art that I am trying to
give. So, I the music, the human, and the digital screen, they're all this fascinating thing that works together.

And I was always going to get into it because I'm going to I'm going to mod the computer. I'm going to handshake the human. And I'm going to respect the culture. Culture first.
Culture first. I And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But what I what I love about what you're saying, let me just dissect this a little bit. Number one is respect. And it's a two-way street. You respect that people need to make money, but the people that make money need to respect that the creative coming from you needs room to breathe and and you need to be listened to. And so I think in the call that we had before, I was like I was like, I'm sorry I'm a marketer. I have to market you. I was giving you some advice of like, hey, contractually, and I give this to both sides. Really come to some expectations about an understanding of what is the level of cooperation that is expected from both sides. That way everyone can flex their style to each other. That way you know how much you know what are the

development or the or the engine or the timing li limitations that you might have in the ideas that you're going to bring and then they understand from you like how far out of the box are you going to know. So giving each other a little bit of a playing field to work from. I also said like rounds of edits right like you know it can't be endless. So, let's say there's four rounds of edits that we can all work through to get to what it is or do you want to work on the skin or the sound? You know, really identifying these things. I think for game devs and for marketers and for business people really think that these collaborations can be more than a label slap. They can be a true integration and creativity that I think ultimately the culture of the fans are going to feel in the final product that will make it sell better.
You're absolutely right. I mean, revision, um, I use that word a lot. I'm and anybody I work with, I I try to really press the idea of revision because nothing in our head is really

original. You know, it's all been said in some familiar way. Uh, which is interesting. That's one of those things that's right directly in front of you
that we don't pay attention to. Why Why has everything been done somehow somewhere? Why? Why? Why is that? You know, I I I would like a real answer on that. But but revision, not only does it get you right where you need to be, but it also keeps you loose to not having expectations of anything.
So, for instance, I'm looking at a name right now for my culture, the culture that's going into Verner. uh because there is a big culture. I've already last night I was playing with them and I'll share a quick story. This girl uh she asked me to come see her house. So I went over there and it was a beautiful place and I was very impressed

that they're building so high up in the air and they have these wood planks going down and it's just really fascinating. It's everything I could ever want. And I was walking around and all of a sudden I see a couple stones and and I got to be honest, I expected this. Okay, one was for Joey Jord, one was for Paul Gray and it and it had little sayings to them and and in my heart, you know, obviously I you know, I put my head down for a second and I'm extremely touched. But what I wasn't ready for and what I wasn't expecting was looking over to the right and a sign saying leave flowers in memory.
Oh.
And then I looked down and around and I was surrounded by flowers everywhere. Flowers. People had already brought flowers and filled up all the block. There was I had to look where to put my flowers. Was I going to leave one for

each of them? Was it going to be a different flower? Was it going to be the same flower? One got close to Paul, one was a little further away from Joey. I was upset about that. I was like, I want them right there. But then I was like, no,
I'm just as equal to the culture. This is the whole reason I'm doing this is to set my flower next to your flower, and it doesn't need to be any closer
than yours. And so I shed a tear and I took a photo. I'm telling you that because unless you revise, you can't get there. Unless respect is such a hard word,
you know that that Rword's a hard one.
I really try to not look at anything as good or bad. I just try to get into the energy of what's best. For instance, you and I are doing something right now and we're just trying to do it the best we can.
And that's what I try to do. I don't I don't think the way you're doing it is

right or wrong. I just want us to do it the best way we can for what we're doing. I mean, if I gave in to everyone that wanted to to try and get me to multitask or not to have artistic schizophrenia or not to have flights of fantasy or not talk all the time or not share the art, you would never ever have a human being dedicating their human lifetime in a digital space made by the likes of me to leave tombstones and a thought that says says, "Leave a flower.
This is what I do because that is real
and I only want to be touched and involved in real real life." And that's probably why most gaming companies can't figure it out. When I was getting the business, I I've got like four video games that I've got

trademarked and it's always the same story. their stress. They don't even want to talk about the idea
unless I have $25 million
and two two years to get started. Now, I tell them, "Hey, I know you're not wrong, but you didn't even want to hear the idea.
So, it sounds like you already have the idea. You're going to go with something you think that's going to win. Good luck with that. I'm not going to buy it because it's going to be like everything else and I'm going to be frustrated and I'm going to stand up and do my best to put my pictures of my friends up on the wall to piss them off when they're gaming. So, it is hard to get with a company
that understands that way of thinking. Limits, fences, revision, left and right brain, business, not business, money, no money. But we can all put the giant star

as the art, the mind, the idea, the story. Both sides should get there first.
Yeah. And I feel for you. It actually leads me into my next question. But but but before that, I just wanted to when we talked last time too, I said EA's original vision is can a computer make you cry? And I think while the word might not be respect that you I I think the word empathy might be something that makes sense is your creative aspirations at this stage in your career are how do I create a digital space where everyone has empathy for each other and they can express an emotion inside of this digital experience that you can share with many many people around the world that can't physically in a sense always be connected. I mean, luckily for you, I mean, one thing you said to me, too, was you have this innate sense to understand the vibe of, you know, 90,000 people standing in front of you at a concert. You know, how to tap into that in a physical space. I think what's cool is

you're figuring out how to do that now in the digital space. So, let me ask you about this, which is you've evolved again, right? You've evolved in a sense from your modding to your music and now you're a part of this growing wave of artists and celebrities building their own development shop. You just talked about how difficult it is to work with a company and raise all the money. So, you have your own shop. From your perspective, what changes do you think the influx of creatorled studios will bring to game innovation, to culture, to expectations from players? You were touching on a lot of this, but what else do you want to say now that you're your own boss? I'd like to start by saying that art has always been we to me and anybody that knows me and works closely with me knows that they can't break me of that. I I still to this day try to get everyone involved in anything I'm doing that that that could be just something I'm passionate about. So,

I'd like to see it more where the industry is out looking for people like me.
We are.
Yeah. I mean, I'm looking for partners, but the partners I want are the ones that love it and they're the only ones that'll get the gig because I don't have the ability to offer what I possess. It's not up to me. I'm literally just a small small part of this whole thing, but I'm a large voice. So, of course, I want partners because I want to take this as far as I can. one of my friends, we we worked this together and we spent weeks already on behavioral health where we want people that spend a lot of their time online, we want to reward them with literal time with a therapist of their choice. Since therapists now can be

online and you can do Zooms. So, we're trying to figure out a healthy way that would be good to do, but let's say you get on burner and you're grinding for 50 hours. You know, the culture has given you back 2 hours of therapy. I don't know. I I don't know the numbers or the exchange. But the point is is I can't tell you how many times I've gone online because I've been very manic or manic depressed or just had real grieving issues and I need art and music. [clears throat]
I need hard saturation and more importantly I just need people you know sometimes sometimes you can't get with your culture face to face. Sometimes you can't even do it on the computer. So I guess I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wish in the olden days ANR guys would come to bars to venues to look at new

vans and they would even talk amongst themselves. Hey, are you interested in this band? No, no, I think we're going to pass. You know, that was a whole thing. And the industry's changed so much. I wonder if they care more about streaming. I don't know. You know, but what I could tell you is I wish all these people that want to make video games because this the question you asked me. It would been so nice for me to have my perfect fit as partners been there from the beginning while I'm trying to get my voice out because it's taken me four years to convince the tech,
my developers, all my people. Trust me, trust me.
For like for example, I have a T-Rex that I made. All right. I made a T-Rex for Ver. So, I don't want to spoil it, but you know, when you think you're playing the normal game, out of nowhere, you know, you get gobbled up by a T-Rex. And it's
Oh, that's awesome.
That's what they gain. That's what they gain. And And I fortunately for me, I

was taught by wonderful parents to care about the business, to to always ask why. I don't pay homage to the business like it's everything to me. I just ask why. I ask good questions. And I just make sure the business is good so it can stay open for everyone and it can do its thing. And if it helps me and my family, well then I'm blessed because do you know how hard this has been and how hard it's going to continue to be? I got to worry about being hacked every minute.
I got to worry about people being
potentially doing saying bad things, doing bad things. I got to regulate. I mean, it's a labor of love, but I do it because it's needed and I need it and I spent a lot of time in there. So, yeah. I wish the industry would send their scouts out that they don't [laughter] Doesn't doesn't EA have a scout that's supposed to knock on my door and say, "Hey, hey, you can't be

this clever clown. You can't do this. You You shouldn't be allowed to do any of this. we're going to go take this from you right now so you can't have it. It doesn't happen. That's the That's the Cinderella story. Um, but what happens is I'll just keep working and right people will be around and the right things will happen and I will hold the floodgates for my culture and the culture of Minecraft and the culture that's soon to be Vern. I released it on my dad's birthday and next December 1st I'm going to do the first Vern Con, if you would. And I don't care if it's 20 people,
but I'm going to sit on a chair and I'm going to explain in questions in a little more detail. And I promise you,
people are going to come as their characters. So maybe those companies can come to that. They'll go, "What are you doing?" I'll be like, "I don't know. I just rented this room. I don't even have catering. [laughter] I have this room for four hours. We're going to sit up on these BS chairs and

answer questions." And that's going to be the first annual one. And we'll see after that. So the companies would come in and go, "No, no, no. You're going to have catering. We're going to market." You know, they they would help. So it would be nice both brains getting together. And there's probably been a lot of failure. I hate that word. I don't like to use that word, but there's probably been a lot of failure in the gaming industry with a lot of grandiose, beautiful ideas from human beings that just didn't make the mark. Could have been the energy outside. Yeah. Could have been the energy outside, you know, it could have been the weather. It's not always money, okay? It could be the atmosphere that causes the people not to be interested. This is a whole thing going on here and I'm tapped in.
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
I said it eight different ways just to make it very quick. I just think collabing is important in this business. doesn't happen like it does in music

where people can be featured and do remixes and producers and directors and film and it doesn't really happen and I understand time is money. I I get it. You know, you got to have a developer working today and you got to wake up tomorrow and see that thing working. But you know what? That's not how dreams work. That's not how culture is and that's definitely not how love is.
Love does not operate on those terms. It doesn't. And that's really powerful I think when you think about what you as an artist or these you know Imagine Dragons is another band that has become a game studio and you know with with because of I used to work at Riot and you know they were deeply deeply involved with Riot for many years and they got enamored with games. I I see this all the time and what I think is super powerful is it's the blending of to your word culture or fandom that comes together to make something bigger than the whole you know it's like a it's a voltron or it's a gaul something is

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chose this particular theme and why you chose the Minecraft platform as the place where you wanted to have your first kind of experience in game development and really setting up your company?
Long story short, um, and I'm not trying to reach any low points here. I'm not trying to be, you know, get anybody feeling low or anything. I'm just I was asked a question. I'm going to answer this. It is what it is.
Yeah. So, my I grew up I grew up looking at covers of science fiction books and if you know science fiction and you know the 70s and 80s and you know these wonderful artists that created these covers uh not unlike the the movie Heavy Metal. So, my imagination I'm an only child so I only live in my imagination. So when I got older, my mom was she was going to pass from dementia and Alzheimer's and I had to take over her. I had to watch over my mom and I saw her fading rapidly. So I

asked her, I said, "Mom, did you ever write your own um story, seeing how you've read thousands of books, you've deciphered different languages, different planets, different flowers, different I mean, what is your brain about, you know, she could read Dune twice in a day and if you've ever seen the original Yeah, I'm not making this up. I'm being honest. That was my mom's favorite book was Dune. She had multiple master's degrees. She loved to read. She loved to learn. And that's how she powered through that stuff. And she said, "Well, you know, I have a lot of stuff." And you know, and I said, "Well, mom, I'm going to need you to write that down before you disappear." And this is how we talk in my family. We go deep. I'm all the way in. So my mom's like, "Okay." So through Alzheimer's and dementia, I'd get four notebooks, just scattered brain, just the way it needed

to be because it was left for me to decipher.
And my mom obviously wanted me to be a part of it cuz I'm going to have to finish it. And I've begun that now. But anyway, it's called The Bubble World. So, I told my friend who's working on Ver Earth with me that I wanted to get involved in Unity because I wanted to make bubble world and I wanted to be a player versus player and I want to make a whole world and I wanted human beings to develop a culture with me on how I'm viewing things and how they're about ready to view things. So, if the fire is supposed to go up, I'm making it go down. these kind of things. Just model it. Mod
everything in the game was in my yard. I took pictures of my grass, put it in the game. Took pictures of rocks, put it in the game. Then somewhere along the line, there was two things going on. Uh, well,

all four of my children had grown up playing Minecraft in ways I can't even imagine. I would just sit there and watch him and ask him [clears throat] questions.
Me, too. And I'd be like, "You're just throwing block." I'm like, "You're just" I'm like, "You're just throwing block. What are you doing?" And they're like, "Dad, you know," and I'm like, "I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it." And but I love it. I'm like, "You guys are freaking me out what you're doing. Like, you're amazing. Your minds are unbelievable." and someone turned me on to the critters platform and you would earn I think it was called sand by playing and then you could turn your sand in and buy a plot
and I had earned a plot. I had bought a plot and a character. you had to buy a character and they were NFTTS and what happened was I was building something with my friend and somebody came over and started messing with me so we killed them and I said well I don't want to do that anymore I don't want to

hurt anybody in the game and I don't know if that guy was friendly or not but I don't know how I'm playing and I've always wanted to play this so me and my friend built a wall all the way up so no one could get in and that's when it started. So I started getting all these plots next to each other and then I called it the dome.
Mhm.
And then the dome is in Vernear. And Vern
Oh, that's awesome.
Vern is part of the bubble world. So the bubble world's like a solar system of thought. Vern Earth is an orbiting planet and all things are from there. So, dedication to my mother, dedication to all four children for blowing their dad's mind with their social skills in there, their ability to work with people, to build,

to compromise, to create. And then, you know, I got in the NFT world, and that's fun. I love that world. And it dove me into Minecraft. And then I found my way. And then my daughter passed and I had to take a break from everything. And that I knew that Vern Earth was going to be the place that I could I know this sounds weird, but like the best way I can say it is there are cemeteries on Earth
that you can get in your car and drive to a different state to see a family member and spend time. And maybe on a day they tell us to go and do that.
Yeah.
I I can't do that. I'm not going to do that. My daughter's on my mind every day,
all day long, and will be for the rest of my life.
So, I need artistic things like music. I need my band. I need to be able to play

with my brothers to be able to get that whatever it is, love, pain, whatever it is, performing. So, Verers is that for me, it's the sole proprietorship, you know what I mean? So, it's me and me alone with like one other person and a developing team. And as people will see, I can't give things away, but I use it as a place to be able to recognize people that are important in my life
and recognize that they've passed and sort of have a memorial because everybody's got to experience it. But I have a place now, you know, it's digital. I I don't necessarily have to share with anyone around me and my reality and I can live how I need to live in there and I can help others. So, it's helped me a lot with the grieving as much as
I mean there's no help but

I can I I can spend a lot of time thinking about the things I have to think and then also be in a familiar space
that was a a protected space for my child. So, it's just like it's home, you know? It's a it's a weird it's a weird thing to explain, but it's not only because of Gabrielle, my daughter who passed away. It's not only because of my mom. It's also because of me. It's also because of the wonderful culture that has allowed me to enter this realm of art. I have so many legions of people that just love on what you know Slipnot does and I'm only one night I'm only one nth of that
okay I'm just one little thing of the ingredients of that
and that is so special will never be again
the businesses that we're talking about they can't make it
they can't make so they can't even come

close
to the genuiness of it so that's what we And that's what I'm doing. And that's what Vernear was supposed to be and is. It's dedicated to my lineage and the people. My mom is the first person I saw draw and she taught me to write poetry and put my feelings also allowed me to play drums along with my dad of course. Um, so they were just always forthright with the creation part, you know, uh,
being creative, speaking your mind, not compromising, never giving in, not believing in failure, believing in being a teacher and a student, getting through life all day, every day as both
and then you really win, you know. So I spend a lot more time listening honestly to more things these days because I just want to learn more. Well, f first thank you for I mean that that's deeply personal and thank you for sharing. I think you showing your vulnerability and

you showing your heart and soul that goes into this project is what allows it to just emanate the creativity that you have and your care for the people in your life and the care for your players. And I I actually wanted to translate that into my final question which is about kind of the players. So, I'm just deeply impressed by your ability to do I call it player first values. It's it's kind of what I call it in gaming. You call it kind of serving your culture. By the way, this this is not obvious to most game developers, which is why you you likely have a dissonance with a lot of the different people in the industry because being so in touch with your fans and your audience and the fandom isn't always obvious to business people. they think we can just magically make it and they don't realize that it takes so much effort to really understand deeply the need and to be in that. So I wanted you to tell me a little bit more about how

you develop your relationship with your players, how you're anticipating doing that in Vern Earth on your your Discord or your I mean you had great examples. I mean just again like thank you for giving mental health resources inside of your game to giving you know those access to special experiences with Slipnot. I mean, these are fantastic examples. How else do you look at, you know, serving the culture? And I know you can't talk about the name yet, but one of the things I was pushing you on is like, you need to you need to name it. You need to give them a name. And so, I know you can't say it yet. You'll follow up with me later, but talk to me more about like how you work with your culture.
Honestly, I wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for my culture. I'm so proud to be in that culture. I was probably one of the first people in the culture and it's such a beautiful thing. My culture gets looked down upon a lot because
it does.
It might appear from the outside to be

rough around the edges, but you know, my culture always comes through with flying, accurate, beautiful numbers of peace and and love, if you will. and real real power, real fierce.
Absolutely.
But the culture I belong to is good and does great things. And the joke is on the industry. It's it's so easy. The reason I am the way I am and the reason why I believe the culture is the way it is and what we're doing is that I will not do anything on this planet for anybody else unless I believe in it. That much means that I don't do anything for anybody else but myself.
Okay? I don't I don't make music for the culture. I don't make music for another band member or a label or or whatever. We

make it for ourselves. The band as a whole makes it for ourselves. And because we do that for ourselves first, each and every one of us, we come together and we make this thing called slip knot. And what happens there is that the culture learns very quickly they can trust us because I'm not doing anything for anybody else but me. And if I'm doing it for me, you can trust me. I might make mistakes. We might make mistakes. But I'm going to do everything in my power to never lie, to never steal, to never cheat. And I'm going to do exactly what I want to do on the planet. And therefore, I've always believed that our culture is like, "That's right.
You know, they do what they want, therefore we love it. We don't have to question them. They do what they want, so we just take it."
And that's my culture. That's the culture I am in. And they turn their

backs on the industry all the time because it's apparent.
Yeah.
What these certain people's criteria is it's so you can smell it and my
Yeah. The sellout. Yeah.
Oh, our culture is so ruthless. Just flip on you. Won't even give you a chance. Your product won't even make it out. You think you know. You got to respect the culture one- on-one and really know what it means. And I I fortunately know what it means because I'm a part of it and I gotta be. I don't go out on stage wondering how many people are out there. I go out there for me. And if I'm lucky, I can make eye contact with several and feel together. And you know what? When they're out there, I imagine they're not expecting to make eye contact. They're there to get it all. I'm there to help them get through their life issues. I I recognize

it. Life is a heavy toll and I want to do good. People need help. I need help. Everybody needs help, you know. So,
yeah,
it's harder to really pinpoint my culture because it's just authentic. It's real. It wasn't made up. It wasn't fabricated. And I'm just actually lucky and blessed to still be a part of it and have it be as strong and you know I trust my culture. I've been in a bad way before and have people watching from afar and me worry about these people and then ask them who are you and what are you watching? They're like clown just want to see if you're going to get home. Okay. And I'm like
a
So I'm like let me buy you breakfast.
You know then we go eat breakfast and I learn a few things. They learn a few things. There's a handshake, a hug, maybe a pass. Later in life, you know, it's just it's easy. Like last night, I took some of them. I go, "Hey, you guys want to see

something?" And I took them underneath this giant statue they made of Joey. I made a tunnel under a under the water over to another area. And I made this big weirdo clown tunnel. It's got a vibe [laughter] and that's what I think people are going to find interesting as my art mine in the game. I do weird things. I go against the game. I make my own block. I make my own bots. I do all these weird things for no reason because it's who I am. But anyway, they were all blown away with it, but within 30 seconds, they were all back doing what they were doing before.
Yeah. And I was like,
I'm so at home here. I was genuinely excited to share with them. They were generally excited to have it shared and to see it, but they were generally ready to go back

to their sin. And I was like, I can exist here with them with barely any pressure.
And this is this is what I set out to do. And
um I'm just really lucky God music, you know, the frequency, the art form known as frequency has, you know, pretty much opened my life to success in enjoyment and it just brings people together and I'm just very thankful for that. And I'm I'm even more thankful for the people that have chosen to utilize us for themselves. It's a gift, you know. It's it's nothing I you know, it's it's it's special.
The number one thing I hear from you is authenticity is is really the key to this is being yourself. Is you know, there's an element of people trusting you. That your art and what you create is done for the right reasons. You're

never going to sell them out. You're always bringing your authentic self and looking out for their best interest. really trying to push things for the good of the thing that you're making versus selling out or or any other reason. And I think if you maintain that outlook, by the way, I don't think you can not do that. It's just in you innately to do that, that that's going to be a key for your gaming success as well because already your community is really seeing that they follow you. They get to a chance to experience those things with you. And and the thing just about, you know, culture outside with metal, like so I grew up, you know, a huge Metallica and Mega Death fan. Slipnot came a little later for me after my we're we're actually of the same generation. I'm Gen X, but but you know, for me it was like, you know, Kill Them All and Metallica and then, you know, all of the early Meade stuff. And then as I got a little bit older, I I think I told you the story. I became friends with the band Anthrax because Charlie

Benante, the drummer, and you know, the rest of the guys were just huge Star Wars fans. And so anytime they would come to Cincinnati, we would have them to the office, we would give them toys, and then they'd bring us to a show. And so one show was with Panta, who again, I'm from Dallas, so huge Panta fan. And I'm a woman obviously and there are actually women at the shows, but I had never felt more protected, more looked out for than being surrounded by these headbanging, you know, massive things going on. All they could do was look out for me. And I think that is a misconception that a lot of people have of the metal culture is, you know, I even hear a friend of mine works at Fender and they've even thrown around, oh well, metal is racist. Like there you I'm like, what? What? like you I I cannot tell you a more inclusive culture, you know, and many of us in any community or any culture. I think we're starting to make generalizations about one another and you know, so the thing that I'm taking away from you is is

really magical. Actually, I wish more people could hear your story because I think they would realize number one, metal has a lot of inclusivity to it and a lot of like very positive vibes to it. And number two is the creativity that you're bringing to your Vern Earth realm and the work that you're doing in gaming is also allowing, you know, other people to have room for positive interactions. And so one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast with you was to get this message out that defies expectations in in many different ways. And so I actually wanted to will probably end up closing here. Um it was just an absolute pleasure for me as a metal fan. Uh thank you for your three decades plus of service in music and now in gaming. Uh the creativity is amazing and you've inspired so many people and you will continue to inspire so many people in a positive way. Uh, anything to to wrap up, clown? I I've just loved having this chat with you.
Well, one, uh, thank you so much, uh,

for having me. I had a really good time because these are really important questions to me. I'd like to just close with that. Um, you know, art is everything to me and art is such a loose word. I I don't really like to call myself an artist, you know. know, I I just like to create and I feel like if I'm put on a pedestal as an artist, I might stop creating and might get real bad. So, I I just I love being given the opportunity to continue to share creativity. So, uh one thing I didn't touch on with you that is a very very big thing is that, you know, as people are going to figure out, it's not a slip knot server. you know, it's a
it's a it's a verer server.
There's a a ladder there. You know, there's server, then there's the engine,

then there's the human who pays the bills, then there's developers. You know, there's a lot there. So, what I want to say is in my earliest conversations with hiring people that were literally going to put a space up in the air in a server for me. It was important for them to understand that I was going to work harder to meet the culture of Minecraft that doesn't know who Slipnot is because Minecraft
is true
way bigger than Slipnot.
You know what I'm saying? And that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. That's that's not an insult to Slipnot. We're just talking about a game that it takes all ages. So, it's really can be big. So, what I'm saying is it's very important for me to also embrace the culture of true Mcrafters. And when I was

designing Verers, we I always made it very important to respect the people that love that and not to take away, you know, most of what they worship about it. So, I just wanted to detail out things I thought maybe they thought might be a fresh change. I do use the word culture as singular, but right now there's two cultures that are going to collide. There's going to be obvious what I do in my music culture, and then there's going to be the Minecraft gaming culture, and they're going to interact together. And I've already seen people that love Slipnot that don't know how to play the game. And now they're having a good time and they're being taught how to build and how to do things, how to mine correctly by Soda people who are not

bragging about being a part of that. They're not like trying to make it a thing. They're literally like, "Hey, this is what you do with a name tag. You need a name though."
Yeah.
And the person's like, "I'm sorry. I'm really embarrassed. I never played it, but I get to play alongside here. It's a dream. And I'm like, here we go. This is what life needs to be. You just get all people talking together. And with me, there's going to be a culture of the hardcore Minecraft. Huge. And And then you got my built-in thing. And we just get to have a we get to have a collab. And then in the end comes the name that I'm gonna tell you in the next couple days. And in the end,
can't wait.
Getting them both together deserves a brand new name for a singular culture that came of plurals. So I just think it's important to uh recognize so many different groups of people

coming together uh under verers. And rock and roll sees no skin color, no doesn't mess with people's faith. It definitely doesn't mess with people's politics. I can't imagine those things being involved with what we do together when we perform.
Yeah.
I mean, you're talking about like a panter show back in the day. I mean, you know what's going on.
I mean, what's going on there is how the certain parts of the city exist. the next day. If you don't let those human beings
have that,
you know, you might you might not get your sandwich, you might not get your deposit or your withdrawal, you know. I mean,
you know,
we run the planet.
The good music runs the planet, you know. I mean, it's uh it's uh good music's made with love and people feel it. And um anyway, thank you for your

time. It's been great. Uh, I'm hoping very soon you're probably going to want to talk to me again because it'll mean things are moving right along in a positive way and you might feel compelled to have to talk to me again because it's reached another level and that would be exciting. So, I look forward to talking to you again some other time.
I can't wait to do that. I wish you all of the best. I love that you're bringing everyone together, slip knot non-mcrafter with Mcrafter. I think that speaks, you know, a lot of volumes to, you know, again, the unexpected impact of the creativity that you're having and and a little bit of a force for good. So, Clown, this was awesome. Thanks. And thanks everyone. We will see you next time.
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