Panel: Future Of Retargeting - Hopes & Expectations.

[Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. So I would like to rewelcome Vera to the stage and she is going to be joined by Otto and Mate. So give them a round of applause.
Did you go to the party last night?
Yeah. Yes. Sorry. Sorry if my voice is down because some karaoke happened yesterday. So but that's the thing that but you should have at this time of year. Are you saying that we shouldn't make too many questions today?
Well, let's see. Let's see. Now, actually, this might be the most honest questions ever.

I love it. That's good. It's going to be an honest panel then. Um, it's so so glad to have you here today. Um, this is my first time moderating a panel. So, thank you for your patience in advance. Um it's really really great to meet you um more like closely now because we haven't really chatted before um actually and we had some really nice conversations before about retargeting what you're doing. So super excited and diving a little bit deeper into that today. Um would you like to just introduce yourself to the audience briefly? What you're doing right now in terms of retargeting? Um how exactly are you you approaching retargeting both at Fingersoft auto and matchup at Pixel Federation? How's your current retargeting exposure?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, my name is Oto Simulan. I work at Fingersoft as a head of player acquisition and monetization. Uh I I say that I'm kind of like this handwaving guy because uh I have the campaign managers who actually run the campaigns. So, I I don't do things

handson. But, uh overall, so uh about a little bit about my team. So uh we have this kind of big hybrid team of of like which consist I we say that we have the whole funnel in in our team. So that's starting from the user acquisition, campaign management uh to ASO and then jumping the game side uh AIP and and ad monetization and then we have uh data also kind of like tying that up together and that basically defines also somehow our approach also the retargeting because the funnel thinking is that uh it it's not like a it's not a line it's more like a circle so that you can like do the funnel again when when the user leaves from the game. So then you can also retarget them with the user acquisition campaigns and kind of like uh improving on that that what where the user left in the game and what new knew you are having just what you were saying in your presentation. Yeah.
That uh what you what kind of like what

do you want to highlight from the for example with an update new content uh what the user was engaging before so showing that in a funnel like on the next round and second round and third round and so on. So that is basically my idea of the approach that going into product side and understanding what happens over there and and then like showing that over there and what we do in the retargeting. So that is definitely something that we are we are really working on and I have to admit that we are not that good at it. I I think it's like similar thing as AI that everybody thinks that everybody else is doing it perfectly and and we are not. So I think retargeting is similar thing that
I think a lot of people are in the same boat.
Yeah. with retargeting. So you're good.
Yeah. So basically that's that's
amazing. It's more of like a full circle. The team is all involved in everything which I think works really well because then everyone is hands-on and knows exactly what's happening from the moment you get the user your first fresh user acquisition or or you know um first player and then all the circle

around the on the life cycle what happens all the way up until you're ready to retarget them. Um is it the same for you Bachelor or do you have a team that specializes in in retargeting?
Not really honestly. Uh it's it's it's a very tricky tricky uh topic for us because uh I don't think we've ever been able to do it like effectively and it's it's a struggle honestly. It's a struggle. Um the retargeting campaigns that we run we have to do like cycles and waves of the of the campaigns because we need for the audience to be able to like drop out of the games and then we can approach the that like the pool of audience. So yeah that it's uh it's just it's just very very challenging but I we do not have like a dedicated team to do that but it's just like regular UA people that they do these kinds of things but at the same time it's uh every time when I'm for example talking talking with the uh people that are representing the vendors from the retargeting area it's u I don't know like how to approach the

conversation because it's a tricky it's a tricky topic. We are very open-minded people. We can we can help you out hopefully finding the right setup. Um do you feel that you you mentioned about how you you can't have an evergreen retargeting campaign? Is that because you feel like your audience isn't big enough if you were to continuously always run retargeting so you need to continuously stop it and go back to it again? Is that what happens? Okay.
Exactly like that.
Yeah. And do you know what like if that is what works for some games then that's fine. Um obviously the the ideal scenario and the dream is that you run retargeting alongside your user acquisition campaigns like always the evergreen campaigns but it doesn't really have to be that way as well right if that doesn't work for you then that's also fine um so talking about challenges then and that is one that you have right um ultra is is there like any challenges that you feeling with you just saying that you starting retargeting as well and you kind of trying to find your feet around it are there any challenges that are coming out of it for retargeting in specific that you feel like current it's

been a little bit harder to navigate.
Yeah, like overall I think like as as you said in the presentation also like there's like 10% of like users are after 30 days. That's quite optimistic number in my opinion. So uh out of that 10% like kind of like know that uh in mobile games uh one to two% 2% is like good who actually using real money. So you narrow down the audience to a so small
to your payers.
Yeah. Payers and then when you have like want to respect all the kind of like and all that kind of stuff with the data. So then
what what you have at hand is like it narrows down to a very small audience. So then it's like very challenging like
if if kind of like thinking all of these so at the end of the day you have like so small group of users that you try to get back to your game even though they might be the best uh purchasers and and kind of like your best users.
So it it kind of like pays most likely

withdrawals might be like you you're getting your investment back
but that's super challenging to find those users and it might be that you it might not be successful and 100%
and and the problem is that the campaigns might not be kind of like if you feeding the data for the campaign so it might be that the campaigns are not finding anything. Yeah, for sure. Um, one of the things that I was saying as well, and I have this conversation with with um, advertisers quite a lot is when you first start a retargeting campaign, um, how granular should you go? And a lot of the times with the advertisers that we speak with, they have a very specific idea already of what they want to do. And they'll be like, you know, I want to target 100 LTV only, only this country, only this time range. And the more specific you you you are, especially at the start, the harder it will become um because then you might be missing out the opportunity of actually exploring users that you wouldn't thinking that would bring value back to to the game. Um and also you're not allowing the algorithm um if your

partners are that you're working with to actually explore and learn from users at that very early stage which is really really important. So, I feel like one of the key tips that I would say on retargeting itself when you first start as you're in that phase is to just be as open-minded as possible. Um, and allow yourself to explore a little bit more out because the audience will become limited once you put all the little layers on top of it. You know, all the IDFA restrictions, it will become harder for sure.
Um, has any retargeting worked? I feel like we need to bring some positive vibes to the rim.
Yeah, I think some of that work. Yeah,
good.
No, for real. Um, we've been running retargeting campaigns like every now and then. Like not a lot of them, but some some of them worked. I can say like some of them worked, but it's uh it's a very vicious cycle.
It's a very very very tricky topic, but I can say yeah, some
you see some good results um regardless of obviously the the bumpy road.

Yeah, exactly. But I think you have to go like the extra mile and like prepare everything for that particular cohort of players. So So they do feel that difference. So there's something new awaiting for them like uh within the game or the whole the uh the e ecosystem and uh and then yeah
the strategy itself right is where you need to put a little bit more planning and time um versus your typical user acquisition where you could just plug it in.
Yeah. I I think like overall like in like typical user acquisition campaign there's a lot of users like old users but we might not know about it. Yes. So if you're thinking like we are having clamp racing games which have like over two billion downloads. So out of all of those so most likely when we get the user they already know the game they play been playing that game. But how we
give them something meaningful over there like why would they come back? Why wouldn't they like install something else? For sure.
You can like be like, "Uh, yeah, I remember when you were a kid. I'm playing this." So, kind of like

going into that direction.
Yeah. Well, we'll make you pay again. Yeah, exactly.
There's definitely retargeting happening even though like with the normal campaign. So, how do we kind of like shift the mindset towards like we really really doing that or do we need to actually?
Yeah, exactly. Because one of the things that we talk a lot about as well is you're not running retargeting, but you're spending so heavily on us acquisition. you are essentially paying for those users again. You're just paying more for them because it's like they never existed but they do. So, you know, once you find the setup that works with retargeting, it's just a way of getting the users back at much lower cost. Um, otherwise it will just end up in your user acquisition campaigns most likely and you'll just pay more. Um, what do you think about audience segmentation? We talked about I talked a little bit about this on my presentation as well. Um are you currently being like just testing different things in terms of the kind of users that you are going for for retargeting or are you focusing on LTV like churn risk using retargeting

for retention like anything in particular?
Um definitely focusing on the LTV from the pixel side.
Yeah. because we want to bring down those users with at the end of the day it's like it's always about the LTV for us LTV
doesn't make sense if if it is not like so it's always a business so uh yeah definitely looking for the LTV and uh we doing what we can in terms of secondization this an interesting topic but yeah we we are trying to approach that as uh as clever as possible and uh yeah just make those whatever return offers is as interesting as to the like specific segment of of countries.
Yeah. Do you are you currently using specific retargeting creatives on retargeting campaigns?
Well, I want to say like more like more like offers you
offers. Yeah. So the the the message itself the offer will be more tailored. Um
and by offers this is the term that we

use within pixel but offers mean like the inner purchases but
Yeah. Exactly. Got it. Okay. Perfect. Makes sense.
Yeah. I I think also like uh what what we are doing so we always highlight the new content in in our user acquisition campaigns and kind of like
is the idea of like as as I said like we know that there's huge amount of old users who might be interested so kind of like all thinking like we we highlight new stuff always over there so that's basically segmentation already over there
that's a very good way of thinking of it right because even when I talked at creative back then and and I said UA creative doesn't work for retarget targeting but actually that is a very nice way of approaching it. If you most of your creative is to highlight what's new, then that would really fit for both sides as well, right? So the message seems a bit more appropriate for even in users that are older users.
Yeah. And even though we know like a lot of kind of the segmentation on the on the AIP sales side and and offers like what we give so based on on the how the user has been playing, what they kind of

like engaging with. So they might be getting the similar offers. So why not applying that same thing for our user acquisition that we we actually have created those audiences already for monetization purposes. So why why not retargeting also
got a you're doing all the work already basically
um and how do you measure success in retargeting? So row
we
you already said this
are there any other like key indicators that you kind of focus on? So you know obviously rows is is primary and I'd say that everyone experiences the same but are there any other metrics that you are exploring anything else that is key for you in terms of like certain type of users that you want to bring back and you're also measuring that
I think one one thing that I'm not I'm not sure if we are good at it but I I think we should be it's the incrementality so that if we bring those users back so does it like somehow generate more users like also with the kind of like in-game features like

social features, do they engage with those? So kind of like if we have the super good user, can they actually bring more good users with their community or whatever? So that is something that at least I I think that would be meaningful if if going very deep on that
for sure. Yeah, I think that incrementality has been really really popular over the past year um in general. So um yeah, definitely. Um, in terms of retargeting a new way, how do you treat it differently um, on your day-to-day? Do you have like a spec are you currently do you have a specifically specific um, strategy for retargeting campaigns versus UA like are your teams working on it specifically just for retargeting or are you just looking at it as a whole and working together as a whole? So uh for example we do not have like dedicated team to run the retargeting campaigns but we do approach those campaigns differently like different creatives for sure. What we try to do is like just like you say auto is uh try to

highlight like different content like what's being changed within the game what might be interesting for the players that already know what's going on like they they don't they don't need the basics they just need to know like what am I getting from this by returning to this game. Me myself, for example, I'm not sure if I've been approached by like a successful retargeting campaign because I I don't think I've ever returned to a game, honestly. Like once I'm done, like this is it. But I'm a like a difficult person when it come
once you leave, you leave. That's it.
Yeah, that's it. Like this was your last chance. There's no no coming back.
Different so different creative different store listings for example as well because um
Yeah, that that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, that I think that matters because um even like how to approach those users organically.
Yeah,
they don't need to see the basics within the store. They need to see like what's happening in the game now like what's being changed, what's the where is it heading for them because they they pretty much got the idea. So different

approach definitely
for sure. I
I think like it is that we do it without even knowing it. So that's maybe maybe part of similar thing as with the AI that you actually are using it even though you think look I'm I'm not doing anything with that. So it it is somehow behind that you do. Yeah.
Yeah. So same thing with the retargeting actually we do a lot of things without kind of for different reasons but then actually that is aiming towards like the old users and we want to get them back. So in that sense like like for example the store listings and and highlighting the new content. So why would we highlight if if if it wouldn't be for retargeting?
That is so interesting because then you know a lot of the times you say oh actually I'm not running retargeting or retargeting doesn't work but actually a lot of what you do is retargeting related. It's just not directly in a retargeting.
My point B basically is that we are not doing that that much separately but it is like part of the everything. So
yeah got it. Um, and how do you work

with your product teams when it comes to what your strategy is going to be? Um, so are you feeding back into product what might not be working? Say that if you, you know, you notice a retargeting campaign does not work. Um, for some reason is not coming back at all. We have the best creative, the best offer. Are you feeding that back into your product teams um, as well? Do you work together?
Yeah. Yeah, we try to like that's been like the big big challenge back in the days that we have separate teams like we have the monetization team and then we have a product team, we have UA team and product team. So how do you link those together and and now we have this kind of like growthly thinking uh internally that we have a person in my team who is actually working in a product team and and getting stuff to the road maps. So that is kind of like linking everything that we are doing to the actual product road map and and that gives back the feedback like what what is happening.
Amazing.
And and what we would need in for our campaigns and that's been very

successful in like
Absolutely. I think it's the way going forward for sure.
Um what about you um Matt? Is it the same thing with you guys? You work quite closely with product or
Yeah. So luckily on the product side everybody's super super cautious and they AB test pretty much everything. So whenever they introduce a new offer and or try there's like like major change within the within the product
everything's being AB tested and uh we just pretty much rely on the data. So uh
luckily there's no like passion calls no like I don't I feel like this let's do it like that. No none of that.
That is so good because when product isn't part of the picture it just becomes so hard right it's like two different people working through two completely different goals. Um so it's really nice that you have that and you guys work together. Yeah. And I think like about the product, so it's it's how would you do retargeting and give give something if the product doesn't work?
If it doesn't work, if it's not responsive for that, like if you don't have the like the welcome back offers

and gifts. So
for sure, we blame it on the product.
Yeah.
Um so because retargeting hasn't been very successful for you both yet, um how do you see the future retargeting? wise. Um, is there anything that you think really lacks surf and you know e even in terms of a product you because I'm sure you've tried probably I'm not sure you have if you tried a lot of different partners yet and if you at that stage yet but match I know you mentioning you're speaking with different vendors and and out there and is it that you have found that there's not a product yet that is exactly what you need. Is it something that is lacking in terms of retargeting and specific? Okay, let me ask you a question back. Like what what would it take to get you back in a game that you kind of disliked over time?
So, I actually love looking at this because very very recently I was just working with an advertiser that we were starting our retargeting campaigns and they said to me um we just want to focus

on um new installers as in someone that has deleted the game. they played in the past. We have their data. They deleted the game. Um, and we want you to target them. And if they um have the game and you target them, we won't attribute that to you. Which to me, like this doesn't really make sense retargeting wise because it's a it's a whole cycle, right? You are not just focusing on users that don't have the game anymore because that's that's almost like user acquisition if it's very old, right? Um, we didn't have like a limitation on users that we were targeting. So these users were inactive from day 90 like forever like the whole list. So it's massive itself, right?
And then I was like you know like those users deleted the game 90 days ago. Like do do they want to come back? Like why they've deleted the game and then the story about it was like the game is very emotional. It's a football game. Um it's really emotional. They put a lot of effort into it. If they delete it, they delete it. They do not want to come back. So I'm like right I'm getting like

given the worst task in the world. Like how am I going to make this happen? and I didn't make it happen because we have launched the campaign and these users were not coming back but the users that were coming back were the ones that were inactive for more than 90 days but still had the app in the game.
So while it's their idea was that only less than 10% of the users still have the app in the game. So we didn't have to worry about that. That came to actually not be true. Um based on the the data that we had and the analysis that we did on their both attributed and unattributed postpack data, we actually came to see that more than half of the users still had the app even though it was more than 90 days and they were coming back to their game and they were spending um through this retargeting campaign. So there's a way of convincing them they will come
um and and we saw that with this. But what we did see was that the ones that had had deleted it were definitely a very small percentage of the ones that

still had had had the app. So I feel like when if you get to a stage where the user is has given up fully on your game, they've deleted a game, I feel like it's definitely harder and you should definitely treat those differently. Um but if they still have the app in in in their mobile, it means that there's still some feeling there, you know, and they might still come back.
Yeah,
agree. Um, from my perspective, for example, what would it take would be like just give me like an offer that I that wouldn't like make me accept it and I just go back to the game. Just give me like a head start to for example unrelated but World of Warcraft does this. Uh so when you start like a new character and you are like previous 10 10 expansions you have missed you can like boost your character for like a sometimes for free sometimes well usually for money but for sometimes for free. That's a good incentive to have for example to return to a game just to be able to catch up like right at that moment and just catch up with the community themselves because everybody's talking like

like high-end stuff and uh you're not able to cope with that because you're kind of missed the last 10 years of that
basic. Yeah, exactly. It makes absolutely sense and all it's and I feel like with retargeting out as well, it's quite sentimental and I was saying back then that social casino does this really well, but um it's really just like speaking to your users directly. What is it that is going to move the needle? What are they going to feel? Um it's it's it's it's all quite like it's very personalized when they look at it. The message really really needs to be key. Agree with the offer 100%. And if you can afford to do that, it really really helps. And we see that creatives with offer. A lot of the times people ask me this like is it worth to have an offer on creative? 100%. If you open to do that and if your product team can support um that as well having offers to claim on creative really helps with retargeting in particular. Yes.
Yeah.
Have you tested that at all on your end in terms of like offers or do you feel like it's not something?
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's as I said like it's kind of like happening all the

time.
Yeah. Yeah but but yeah something you asking like uh what should be done and how to like move forward with this. So what we would like to have because we are leveraging a lot with our like old user and with our data existing data and and then like how if there's like a ask that okay you start to now you have to start collecting data now it's like what do we do with everything like what we already have we want to use that so somehow combining that that we don't have to start from zero with with our old game because we all the time every minute we are having more and more old users like like and and and then kind of like we we don't actually know like how many there are like new users. So we would like to use data that we already have about those
available. Are you very good with that, aren't you? Cuz yesterday you were mentioning that something to me that I found really really curious which was the the good boy event.
Yes.
I found this hilarious. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, I have this kind of like an idea on on

like well everybody you you mentioned in the presentation also that the MMP should be like good and all the postback events should be there. So, uh how we we started looking at this is that uh there are like certain points in a game that we want kind of like the signal events that okay let's say they reach level 20 they engage with the uh social features they watch rewarded videos. So let's say there would be 10 of different these like good conversion events and if let's say seven out of them 10 like the user is filling all these so you could like release a good boy event which says so so that uh that they are valuable users that we would put put in like a different audience like okay this is the user type we want to look for you don't have to like combine all of those like uh small events but then like trigger those in on on product side
your gold mine and I think that's amazing for retargeting.
Yes.
Like you know your data well that's

great you're already doing all the segmentation.
Amazing. Um with privacy changes not going anywhere and hopefully we are a bit more relief with Android because it seems like that's not not moving forward at least for now but on iOS um it doesn't feel like nothing is changing. How do you feel about retargeting um an iOS in particular? Because if we talk about retargeting being hard when
I feel bad about iOS all overall. So the same
are are you doing it at all? Have you tried it or you just like given up on it?
Yep. We are very Android heavy. So I would say that we are not
you're lucky.
Yeah. Yeah. You're lucky in that sense but kind of iOS is challenging and we admitted that for everyone basically.
Yeah. Exactly. Is iOS like quite heavy for you? I I honestly don't know for sure like what's the status on that within pixel but
you gave up.
Yeah for us.
Uh have you tested so with iOS obviously the if if IDFA is not present the audience is even smaller which is

obviously a challenge if your audience is also small which already small which you mentioned. Um, have you tested any probabilistic retargeting um in programmatic where where RDFA doesn't need to be present at all?
No, to be honest,
I'm just really curious. Um, yeah, if anyone in the audience
Yeah, if anyone knows like how to do that,
please, I might have a job for you.
I feel like there was a period where everyone was talking about proistic retargeting on iOS and it's like, yeah, great. You know, we don't need to to know the IDFA. Obviously, like there's some loops around it, but I'm yet to hear someone saying like this really really works for me and it's great even though I personally we we do not offer proistic solution at RTB House. Um but yeah, I feel like it's all still a very very gray area. Um how do you think retargeting will evolve over the next you know year um year and a half going forward? And do you think AI will have any impact on it at all? I think AI might be good for like

detecting these good boy events without us like uh
you're having to do it yourself
specifically like defining them but could be like the AI defines us like this is this is this is
good boy even though kind of like
or good user yeah
uh 100% honestly to I think it's going to because I'm like a huge like AI fan when it comes to saving up on auto like tests that I find very very tedious and I don't want to do them. Please take care of that. Um I think it's going to play a major major part in the retic as well. And what I mean by that is like just how I see it just just put put the archetype of the person or their like what they like into the AI and let me the AI tell me like what might they like next like like what's the next step when they
Right. Yeah. Like kind of try and preempt what should come.
Exactly. Um, one thing that someone asked me yesterday actually this and I

haven't thought about it at all was like, "Oh, it it's a new advertiser that we were on boarding and they asked me, can you just put like all the information of the audience into your AI and will it just tell us what's best to do strategy wise?"
Yeah.
And I actually have not thought about this at all.
How would it know if we don't know? So kind of like how how do you how do you teach the AI if you don't log like all of us? Yeah, sure. But uh sounds great because you obviously retargeting retargeting means effort at the start, right? I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Uh I would love to like I I always say retargeting is easy but the very start it's not. You are a testimony to it as well. It's not in terms of you have to put some time in it and being that you or working with a partner that can do that for you which is also pos possible but obviously you need to put more effort than you would in in use acquisition especially in trying to find the right strategy right the right segmentation the right audience and I feel that that's probably where AI will

help us out a little bit more as oppos have to do so much testing
that's my hope yeah
yeah exactly fingers crossed for that um are there any myths or or misconceptions um in retargeting that you would like to call out
I think we already called out that means that everybody thinks that everybody else is doing but then they at the end of the day they understand that actually a lot of stuff that we are doing is is for the retargeting but we are not talking it like we are not using the term but kind of using like oh the old users might enjoy this so that's already
retarding so I that is like that kind of like
uh we are not doing it
but we still are
to some extent.
Yeah, like a lot of I think the base conception of P pixel acceleration games is that they're pretty much run on live ops like the the kind of aspect of the game. Um, and it's a retention and like

a retarget mechanic by it by it by the concept and by just promoting the stuff. I think that might be like like a retargeting side project of mine that I do. So just letting all like all the people all the all the users all the players know like this is happening within the game but not necessarily like exactly just like it's like not using the term like not really calling like retargeting but like just keep them informed and kind of like hey this this offers on the table in case you're interested go
treat them differently have something for them. Yeah 100%. Yeah it makes sense. I think from my end I I probably have quite a few because I hear so many all the time. I'm just exposed to it. Uh but I would say like the two that I hear the most are um most popular one to not work with more than one um partner in retargeting um because it would just kind of cannibalize they will just kind ofize each other. It is not true. Um we really really see as well

that um the value that a partner can bring can be very different from another partner. Um and also competition is good. Like I've haven't heard about anyone that does their best if they aren't the only ones working for it.
At least the CP go higher if there's some competition.
So just have some natural competition going because your partners should be under pressure. Uh I should not say that but it is true.
You said it. Yes.
Uh you want to have someone that will do better than you. I think that's like the main one for sure. um in terms of uh yeah what what I hear like on a day-to-day or the other one will be you know users might come organically and if I'm spending on retargeting then my inactivity window should be really long to make sure that I'm not actually tapping users that will organically come back to the game um and that is not true and data tells us that and you know in my presentation I also tapped on how the number of users that you lose right on your first 3 days then 30 days for mobile is even more aggressive I like 11%. Um, so yeah, those users will not

come back. There's a lot of offers for them out there. Um, you know, that will make it more interesting. So, it's really important to be on top of that. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, we kind of like reaching to an end and we have a few minutes left for any questions as well. Um, does anyone have any questions for um, Otto or Macho or myself that you would like to ask? someone. Oh, we have one over there.
I was going to say they they put you off of retargeting because they just had such bad experience.
Hi, uh I'm Martin from Bond. We are a creative uh studio or design design agency and and uh also um designing IPs for games. Um but um we have recently actually we we've kind of built our own proprietary AI strategist in a way. um our strategists are using this tool to very quickly mine the world for for

example fan truths. So um we were working with one client and it's also this kind of role playinging type of game and of course us just not playing those type of games. we weren't able to know anything about what these players what might excite them and what the truths are when they're playing the games like what are they actually doing in the games and this AI very quickly outlined like 50 super deep fan truths uh from about these players about the uh what was it RN Resis uh all kinds of like really strange things that we didn't know anything about and we could use that in our creative work. Are you couldn't that also be used in you were talking about this like exciting them again with like new features from the games or what are what are they playing in other games currently could that be combined with retargeting I'm just wondering like quickly mining the world from these fan truths and then
yes I think definitely that is exactly what we would like to do and what we are

trying to do is to understanding the audience kind of like much deeper than whether they are purchasers or not that's like a very dummy split. So that understand that what what are actually their motivations in in a game like why do they want to grind for like certain vehicle for like 100 hours in a game why why would they do that like what's the actual like uh motiv motivation on that. So understanding the audience much deeper. So would help in in those campaigns that what we are actually promising them like okay now you can do that even like 200 hours in this like it it even even better now so what what is the actual the proposal what we are giving for them. So that is that is a good point. Yep, I agree 100% in terms of understanding the audience. That's why we only been doing tycoons for example successfully because that's the only one like how we know how to do it and we

know like what those people like and uh we took it a bit further in terms of for example we invited like I think top 10 I want to say players but miss the L sometimes um uh to the office and uh treated them for the whole week and I wanted to see like what they like how they act and how they interact with the we do we have like a small train diarama within the office do they like this content do they not like this content it was like a like a real time AB test experiment at the same time but like it was like it's a pleasure to have them nice people super like them but at the same time it was really really interesting to see like how they like what do they think of the game and it was a nice way of finding out like it's more than a game for them it's more like a like what do they actually like and it's it was more more about the uh social interactions like how does the game take them out of their world like the everyday uh what they need to do. So um that was

like a nice step forward as well. I'm not sure if AI would ever tell you that but there you go. In this case you have the actual people's feedback right so it's like a testimony that uh AI is amazing for a lot of things and they super interesting what you mentioned there as well actually how like you probably can use AI as well to understand what is it that users are enjoying from ad even like from your pisset what is it that users are enjoying and that is working and helping them convert that you then can adapt to your game so that's like a really interesting way of looking at it but then having people's real testimony
and like that's you know we can't forget about that yeah
yeah absolutely I I want to add also we it actually went out into the internet and min data from there. So it was going directly into Reddit servers that was about that game. It was going to uh it was reading stuff from Discord and all over the internet and it was kind of you know compressing all that down into like 50 really
strong insights.
Love that way.
Yeah, that's really cool.
Nice.

Does anyone else have any questions? Oh, just right there as well. Brilliant. Hello, thank you for the insights. Uh, both of you have games that are have sequels. So, Hill Climb Racing has one, two, three hopefully. And then, uh, Train Station 3 just came out after Train Station 2. So, how do you get the users who had churned in your previous game into the new sequel so that they can enjoy the new features that you have provided?
Amazing question. Thank you, Amin. um a challenging one to be honest. At the same time like the the sequel is always kind of going to eat up the like part of the audience of that previous one for sure and that's going to happen and uh it just need to kind of position those games differently and just maybe because for example transition 2 is done in a very very specific art style and a very specific it like tycoon mechanics as

well. the the the third one has been done of like a different artsy. So that might be approaching still a niche very very niche kind of audience yet like a different different part of that audience. So we just need to outline and highlight the uniques of the game and then make sure like u like this we know you like trains for example but is this like the types of games that you might like with when it comes to trains is like the specific art style they looking for and I know I can tell you for for a fact like the train fans that we have they're very very very significantly curious about the details of of what's what's there like if there's not something's not matching with reality they gonna let you know. We've also tried to understand like what is actually the overlapping audience between like Hill Climb Bing one and Hill Grand Pressing 2 and it always comes back to that it's not that big as as you would assume that kind of like the sequel would always cannibalize the kind of like the

original one but the main purpose for SQL is is to bring new audience that would be engaging like interested in in multiplayer and then then you can you can always go back to the game the original one that you can play offline in an airplane. So those like completely two different games even though very familiar mechanic like why would you have like a thousands of different like match three games. So because there is something different in those so kind of like and and then for different audiences. So I I would treat also like sequels also like uh separate games like different games with with different features.
Cool. Um, I think that is all we have time for today, but can we give our lovely panelists a round of applause, please?
Thank you.
And an extra round of applause for Vera because she's been talking for an hour and 20 minutes straight. So, well done. Go rest your voice or do have some more

meetings, whatever you want to do. Of course, the world's your oyster. The conference is your oyster. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]