Retargeting Masterclass: From Angry Birds to AI Ads

[music] [music] Hello world. Welcome back to the Pocket Gamer Podcast with your hosts, me, Brian Baglo, and our regent of retargeting, Miss Peggy Ansults. Peggy, it has been an absolute age. You're looking fabulous. How are you?
Thank you, Brian. It has indeed. It's been a lot of travel, a lot of places, uh, even a touchdown at Google AppSummit in Dublin. But it's interesting because wherever you go, you're hearing about the topics that we're covering here. So, the topics we've been doing here, everything we've been doing on the podcast has been absolutely on the money.
So, who do we have today and what are we talking about
today? We're talking about retargeting because that is like the way to stop wasting spend. You re-engage smarter in a smarter way. You build player loyalty that lasts. And I had to look at it from

both perspectives. So two experts in their own right. We have Canara Sigura and perhaps you wave for us. Canara, there you are. Lead UA manager at ROIO. He brings us realworld lessons from some of the titles that he's worked on. Bryant. So very important for our audience. And Nick Blake, head of growth at Bigabid. Welcome, Nick. Because you work with studios worldwide to do exactly what I'm talking about, turn data into more efficient re-engagement. So great to have you both.
Thank you so much. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here. Um, so before before we go diving in, one of the things that Peggy and I know is that we have a really broad audience. We've got some real subject matter experts out there, but we've also got some developers who are maybe working on their their first ever title. So, let's let's start simple. So, if you're not kneedeep in your UA, how do you explain retargeting to somebody? Canaro, how do you define it and why has it become such an important part of the your strategy

at Romeo?
The retargeting uh is a basically uh you reacquire back the user who already acquired before. So it's not completely new user but you know previously play your game for us uh we have a lot of portfolio games know a lot of you know evergreen games. So it is a very important for us uh to do like a retargeting campaign uh in a paid way but also the organic way.
Nick from your kind of broader market view what's changed in 2025? Why is retargeting suddenly the mustave rather than a nice to have?
There's been a couple of things really. I mean there's been the ongoing problem that a lot of game developers have been facing where the payback window has has been uh extending as money's become tighter generally across the board. Um that means that you know looking into LTV and and smarter ways of investing that money is and and looking at things a bit more holistically has become important. Um and also in particularly

this this year um whereas previously because of uh the the problems with IDFA uh a lot of people weren't doing any retargeting on iOS uh there's been more pro probabilistic retargeting. So that's opened iOS back up and that was you know I uh say it's pioneered by bigger bid but now it's uh it's available through a lot of other partners as well. this is just like one of those boxes you're going to need to to tick in 2026. That must be a bit more surprising, at least maybe for you, Nick, because um you know, as you said, it you were one of the first, but now now it's a wave.
Correct. Yeah, it's it's because it is it's so much I mean people want to be smarter with that spend. They want to, you know, look at getting users back. These are people that at some point have engaged in your app. there there is uh an element of I'm trying to optimize and

enhance my overall spend and the and the LTV I've got with my users. So bringing them back and into your ecosystem is it is as important as going out to find those new users.
So can to pick up on that point you know about it's being the as efficient as possible and minimizing that that kind of wasted spend for ROI what what does that actually look like? How how do you go about it?
Yeah. So, so again like you know uh our port video game uh some of the game has like you know 10 years history uh and uh you know some some of the our player like you know they used to play in a different device maybe 10 years ago and you know they buy new new new phone maybe like a week ago and know they they just you know see they download a game. So one of the challenge uh of the retargeting is like you know data tracking uh because like you know uh if they change you know devices uh or something like you know it's it's very difficult to track the uh data. So that that's you know kind of you know the challenge you know we always like you know facing on the rediting side and uh

on another side uh we call it the reactivation. So basically this means that you know uh someone download the game but you know stop playing. So like know we want them to you know come back to the game and uh you know sometime we show like you know like a different uh like know creative like you know we more focus on like a new future uh in a game or you know some of the interesting event uh and uh you know like we use like you know several you know touch point stimulate them to you know come back to the game
that that makes a whole lot of sense to me I think that's that's one of the key things that I'm hearing is that if you have them in your ecosystem value them and make sure that you are looking after them Well, so um Ned, from your side, how do studios sort of deal with this ecosystem and and recognize maybe diagnose cannibalization? You know, is that something you're seeing a lot and and how do we tackle that? Yeah, it's I would say Brian that it's it's sometimes

it it's it's one of the objections that was there in the past with retargeting um and the belief possibly that the the users would have come back organically and that's where in uh incrementality measurement is is really important and that's something that [snorts] uh is allowing studios uh and developers to to really evaluate ates uh the success of that and answer the question of would this user have come back without seeing an ad.
We could do a show just about incrementality testing easily and Canaro your learnings as well. But for those in our audience again because we want to teach we want to make this actionable and doable because retargeting is such a hot topic and they have to look at incrementality testing as a way as well to prove that it is working. So, I'll start with you, Nick, about just applying a practical mindset to this problem. Do you have some thoughts about

um what they can do if they're not data scientists or don't have a huge team as they do at ROI?
Yes, that's uh again that's that's a good way of approaching. There are rabbit holes to go down here. There are multiple different approaches that can be taken just from um geosplitting or um uh PSA ads as well. But we take the approach of uh ghost bidding or a hold out group where you have a certain uh percentage of of your audience that you we would run through the dynamics of the auction and then at the last minute not show an ad. It's difficult to do if you're doing this yourself. It's difficult to actually uh to to make that effective. So asking one of your partners to do this for you and with transparent reporting on it is an is a far easier and actually more robust and statistically

significant way of of getting you the answers.
I've heard about that. It's very important to not show the ad. But there are approaches where I don't know, maybe the maybe the managers are are messing up somewhere, but for some reason they go through the motions and then that's what ruins the test because they essentially didn't go through it all the way.
Yeah, correct. It's it's the I mean the other way where the ad is being shown uh as I said before would be having the PSA ads but in that case you're actually having to spend on the ad whereas with the uh the uh ghost ad methodology it's not costing you it's costing you an opportunity cost because there there is an element of your users that uh that aren't therefore being exposed to an ad but not actually in the placement of the ad.
But then you have better data and you have better results. That's the whole idea with the test. Canara, just following up on that, you know, how have you been approaching this at ROI? Are you a fan of the the ghost adder? How do

you test, you know, what's incremental and what isn't? Because it's that lift, those numbers that matters.
So, what we do is the first uh we defined our target audience. So, let's say non-payer inactive 30 days. Then we divide uh this audience into the two groups. So one is a control another variant one and then uh we uh run the retargeting campaign like one group let's say kind of for the variant one and see that you know what's the uh return rate uh control versus variant and then we can define that you know what is the impact of you know running campaign. That's you know how we uh evaluate uh the incrementality of the retirement campaign.
So it's always that control group versus another. And I think that Brian this is something also that you know our audience is going to be learning and

doing more in the future as well. You know it's not just about segmentation player types player behavior. It's um you know what happens if we don't do anything at all opposed to what happens if we do focus on this if we do reignite this relationship with our players. very much. So, Peggy, it was something that that you said, Nick, which was all about the opportunity cost. You know, I think it's there's a lot of hesitancy and there's a lot of kind of I guess um trepidation for some developers about uh wasting an opportunity to re-engage, retarget, but without that kind of baseline, without that that sort of really practical sense of what your players are going to respond to, then you know, you're still very much um guessing.
That's right, Brian. It is uh it is important for for developers to to not waste this opportunity and and and to be

bold in their decision- making. Uh because as as I mentioned before, lifetime values is what you're really optimizing towards and maximizing uh the the investment that you've already made to acquire a user. So that's hesitancy is a allowing someone else to to to get to them to get them into their uh environment. Uh and b uh you really want to be able to demonstrate that it's working. So using incrementality is is a way where you know that that decisioning is actually adding value that that dollar spent is providing uh providing uplift.
That's a great segue to you can because this is exactly the thinking that you've had in how you frame this. You know you've looked at your portfolio and you've ran some AB tests and titles and finding you know which are the players

to focus on. you know which ones are inactive, which ones come back organically. It was at some level surprising. You would think that a certain level of inactivity would be the one to focus on, but you found something completely different.
Yes. So we've conducted uh one experiment uh with one of the port video game uh and know basically what we did is that uh we divided user to like you know few uh past to know inactive window. So some of the they like you know like a seven days uh 14 days 30 days 60 days and we run AB test. So you know like a control group and the variant what we saw is that some certain inactive window let's say because two you know 14 days actually know their returning user return rate it's is a higher than you know uh like know seven days with you know retargeting ads. That's a kind of surprise for us because uh we know like you know seven days is

kind of you know best but you know can be a little bit wasted because you know people uh come back to the game organically but you know what we see like you know the 14 day is a kind of a uh the sweet spot of the inactive window with you know paid uh like retaliation campaign.
So that's very different. I mean 14 days that's uh that's an interesting window because I think it has something to do with maybe you know you are top of mind and you are staying top of mind if you wait for a different window or you adjust that retargeting window um it does have an impact what did you see when you were when you were you know adjusting that um the impact that it had on efficiency or result
I think like you know this like know inactive window like what's sweet spot of uh the inactive window can be different uh for the each of game you know depending on the gender depending on your audience uh so like you know I think the one of the most important

lesson uh from this experiment is that you know like you know different inactive window can work in a different way so we need to experiment and you know we need to find out you know what is an optimal setup for each of games. Nick, so from your perspective, if you look across different uh genres, types of game, are you seeing a similar pattern or does the timing of when to re-engage depend on genre, game, target audience, etc.
I hate to be it depends, but it really it really does unfortunately the success of the game, the genre, um you know, where are people um tending to to drop off? there might be a particular stage within a game that that becomes less appealing to the user and they're they're dropping off there. If you're finding that out, it's probably a good idea to do some development on the game and and try and get them to overcome that. But it is um it really does uh

depend on on the data that we're seeing and that we would see. the advertisers are sending us postbacks where we can then fully analyze where we see the uni users in that flow and then we can understand and segment them in in different ways and then you would have different messaging to different uh to different users. Some it might be you know we might have some very long idle days of 180 days plus or even longer. Um, some it will be quicker. You know, they might have downloaded the game, got dist, you know, life happens, got distracted, something like that, and then and then didn't get back to it. So, you bring them back. There really are different strategies and nuances that that that will depend ultimately on uh the particular users of that game. for the smaller teams out there without necessarily the sort of the data resources that that you have, is there a an easy way for them to begin to identify their own kind of sweet spot for for their particular game or

portfolio?
Typically like you would looking at 7 to 14 days plus is a is quite a common one. Uh 3 to seven again is a reasonably common one as well. you know, just just starting there and seeing the effectiveness of it. Again, measuring it well. Uh so that um you're you know, you you do see the value, you understand the value and what that's bringing back. But it it it would be start and test and then move on to the next one if you're if you're a small um developer.
We have some benchmarks there. We're hearing 14 days from Canara. We're having even three to seven. You're mentioning Nick. I've heard some people say you start retargeting the moment you acquire. So there's uh there's a lot of different models to consider, but I think the message here, Brian, throughout is saying exactly that. Consider your model and start testing and looking because you've acquired them and you can keep them. It's just a

matter of of nudges in the right way at the right time.
Exactly. So Peggy, you know, and we we do hear this a lot. Be aware of your data. focus on your player. Do everything you can um to keep them engaged and to make sure they they feel special and lovely and warm and welcome.
That's it. Don't miss an opportunity. And that's exactly it because it comes down to the creative, you know, you don't have to re-acquire them and tell them all about the game. They know about the game. They were in your game, you know, and so you have to show them something different or say it in a different way. And you have a great example on one of the games that you were working on. Tell me a little bit about what made that work for you. we we've changed the icon on the devices uh and then like you know on on the next day like know we see like you know returning user than uh the the previous update and uh I think that's you know it's a great way uh for the kind of reactivation organically

and I've seen like you know uh some of the developer mainly like hyper casual or you know ever evergreen uh type of game developer they doing this kind of stuff you know each update they introduce a new icon which like you know looks like you know uh the different from the previous icon. So then like you can imagine like you know you download a game maybe months ago and you're checking the devices and see that you see like you know unfamiliar icon and that's you know caught your attention right and you might tap it and then like you know you return to the game and you see like you know what's that new update and then you may play play the game again right so I think that's you know kind of like know behind like know logic behind uh but you know that's kind of the simple change like you know can effect on the know organic returning user rate.
And what did you see? What was the boost in organic returns?
We saw like you know two two to three times more uh organic returning user. that's you know significant enough and

you know that's you know like we we we are kind of convinced like okay like we have to change the icon um every time for the new new update or you know important event because you know we don't want to miss like you know these like you know organic return users
that's such a a clever move and for such a small sort of creative outlay um and speaking from experience you know I've got Dualingo currently guilt tripping me into going back to learning German by the series of increasingly bleak um icons on my phone. Yes, I absolutely feel that it's a it's a great approach. Cano Nick, what trends are you seeing in in how games and studios are are refreshing their visuals?
If there's an a particular event or an upgrade that you've done within the app as well, that's a timely way to to remind people of what's happening and and feeds very well into your your development cycle. But definitely like just small creative changes can and and any copy changes can shift

the needle quite a lot in terms of improving CPI and conversion rate. Um it ultimately the key to it is the volume of testing and test you know having a a a strong cadence uh and test and learn test and learn. Obviously, it's going to depend depending on developer and and size of team and and ability to produce and iterate some of the creative. Again, a lot of your partners will be able to assist you uh on that front as well. It's it's very very important to to change you different things and we see lots of changes in characters, icons, anything like that that will then improve just anything that uh gets over ad fatigue.
These are small these are doable things. Yes, that's I think the the good news here is
AI is making them even more doable.
But it is the point that it is about the creatives and you have like this this wonderful pallet at some level Canaro is

you can look at icons, you could look at videos, playables, you know, everything. Um maybe you can share a little bit the formats, the approaches that you've seen give you the strongest lift. We heard about the icon but I'm sure that being encouraged by that you know you're experimenting with others. What can you share? Yeah. So in terms of format uh maybe like you know Nick knows you know better than me. Uh and they know this like you know always know depend know partner you work with. So we know DSP partners or network partner uh they they don't work on the video and also like playables. Uh but I think most important thing is is like message here. Uh so we've created uh one static animated creative with reward and it works pretty well. you know you can imagine like you have some some some of gems or coin and you know come back to the game you get this I think it's look for the red campaign the format uh is of course you know it's important but also know

message it's you know it's more important
can you're absolutely correct you know it's using everything at your disposal in the in the simplest uh opportunities to catch your players attention Nick are you seeing studios starting to really build playbooks for all of this kind of activity. And you know, are they looking at what to refresh, how to test, how often, or is it just still very much sort of case by case?
You know, can some of Canaro's titles, they've got some incredibly wellknown uh characters that are, you know, a huge huge assets. You The last day of China Joy, when you've got members of the public dressing up as their favorite mobile characters and turning up at the event, you can see the loyalty that that has. So you if you have that sort of brand strength then you you it's you know you really must be uh utilizing that and you can change with various different things in terms of the video and uh and and the copy you would use for those those type of things.

Otherwise if you if you're not blessed with such um strong uh characters and assets uh UGC is also very good. We've seen a big increase in that across some genres. Um, but as I said before, the the main thing on the playbook is is just test test often, find out what works and then keep going. It is definitely not set and rest. You got to you got to keep working at it.
But we do know that it does work. So, it's worthwhile. You know, it makes it just makes sense. You're talking about what's a reason to return to the game and you're making that very clear and very compelling. Yeah, I think the message is going to really uh like depending on like you know like the event you want to push like you know game day uh you know like life tangible games like you know it's like a depends on like a lot of things but you know I think it's wise to think about you know what kind of message you want to deliver to user and what's the reason like you

know they come back to the game
again always thinking about the player Brian you know why come back don't don't sell it again
what I'm hearing from both of our guests is it's not about reacquiring users, it's about reminding them why they were there in the first place, what they loved about the game. Is is that fair? Um, Canaro Nick, is is that kind of what you're saying? Is that that is that your approach? It's just, hey guys, we're here. This is really fun. You should play us again.
Exactly. Yeah. People get uh people get distracted. People have a lot of options. Uh people forget and there's there's a recency bias to everything. So if you can remind someone why you know make it top of mind that you used to enjoy spending time in you know within our app within this type of game that uh that's just giving them that jolt to come back.
Segmentation does come back there at some level and in prepar you called it your secret weapon. So I'm intrigued, right? What are some of the combinations you can share of audience and creative

maybe that you've tested on some of your titles or proven most effective at ROI?
So I think segmentation is the one of the most important uh factor for redundant campaign because this is like you know something like a game developer can control and ask partner hey like know this is a list of audits we want to we want to we want to target. So of course like you know there's also uh involvement from the network side but still like know we have so much control on that you know which audience we want to bring them back and what's the expectation from these audience what's know like LTB expectation uh what is like returning like rate uh that's something that we have more control so this is why can I think that segmentation is like really important uh for the retention campaign.
Uh just adding on to to what Kentaro said, working with your your partner DSP, it's important that there is an

element of trust within data sharing. The DSP understands exactly who are the best users and where do they sit and having that visibility will mean that your retargeting dollars are being used effectively. So sharing uh sharing postbacks is not uh something that it's something that is becoming uh more acceptable. It was something that that people were quite protective about in the past and we do see it and for for understandable reasons. Um I mean in gaming it's a bit easier. I know that in uh fintech or some other areas there are some uh there are some other difficulties around um data compliance but giving working with your partner on on that and work seeing it treating it like a partnership whereas you're both working together ultimately to maximize the lifetime value that you're getting from your users.
Nick I I just want to um pick you up on

that. So, so you you mentioned lifetime value, but when you look across your clients, how big a factor is the actual game life cycle um when it comes to retargeting, is this something that you can apply across the entire duration of a a game, whether it's, you know, years or decades or are there other, you know, bigger drivers um affecting the success of any retargeting?
I mean, g game life cycle is definitely important and we are I mean, we work with uh with developers and on titles that are old. they they've been around a long time there, you know, they're some of the classics that that most people will have played. Um, but there's still value in getting those users back for uh for the developers. So, it that that's definitely there. Sometimes if a game is pretty new and your UA spend is is pretty big, you tend to see people staying away from that. uh and they they'll wait till it's it's had a little bit uh more uh longevity before they uh

before they start to bring um retargeting back into play properly. Um but as it as for it being the biggest factor, it's certainly right up there and ultimately is the user base big enough? Do you have enough monthly uh active users or daily active users to be able to statistically get the best returns and make it worth your while?
How about you, Canara? I mean, he's talking about the life cycle and that's a huge factor. You know, it is about extending the game life cycle and of course it's tougher than ever to launch a breakout hit from the get-go. So, you know, how does this figure in how you approach bringing players back? I think like you know segmentation uh is important like you know we want to you know bring back you know a payer or like you know well user or like you know non-payer but you know like engaged user so depending on like a context here uh but you know for for us like you know uh

it's quite crucial uh to to to keep the engaged user as much as we can and like another context here is kind of messaging so We have a few exciting event maybe like every quarter for each of you know portfolio games that time like you know we we run some of the retellent campaign and you know kind of appealing uh to the old users that hey like you know we have the new update exciting come back to the game that you know we're doing you know consistently. So just maybe wrap it up with a couple of rapidfire questions and I'll start with you can the common misconception about retargeting something surprising here about retargeting. I believed in that uh like you know like a shorter uh shorter inactive window like people more come back and you know it doesn't make sense to the retelling campaign but I know we found that you know at least like you know for some of our game uh like running retardant campaign for

inactive two weeks you know 14 days it does make sense like you know we see some value we have some you know uh business impact no revenue uplift so that's you know kind of you know surprise for me and you know that's kind of you know uh makes me think that okay each of the game has a different setup we need to test uh you know test test test until find optimal setup
he was surprised by that window it's 14 days you know that means go allin because there's a lot to gain where do you see studios over underinvesting right now when it comes to re-engagement and what is your message to them based on that Yeah, over overinvesting is probably because they're not measuring it properly, but uh I would say that they they might also be doubling down on preconceived ideas of of what works and we've talked about the life cycle of the game and how that develops. Well, as that develops, so will the different user segments that you you should be

looking at. So, um measuring and measuring incrementality is is a very important part of that. uh and underinvesting again I would say it people that are are not really uh having a strong cadence in terms of their creative strategy um and aren't are really just assuming that uh organically all of their users are coming back that they're really the the areas that you you need to be avoiding as well.
Uh gentlemen it's been an absolutely fascinating discussion. It's an area that we don't hear nearly enough about when it comes to, you know, making sure that your game can compete effectively and survive in today's ultra competitive market. And I think there's an awful lot in there for our listeners to take away. Um, however, we do have to bring things to a close. But before we let you go, there are two questions we ask all of our guests, and I'm going to ask you both the same, which is, what is it that you're playing right now when you maybe should be working and focusing on retargeting? Um, so what's obsessing you

right now? Doesn't have to be mobile. And then second question is your favorite game of all time. So we come to you first.
I'm a dad and I have three years old daughter. So probably know that's the kind of the game I'm playing now and know I spending most of time.
I I hear you. I have a 9-year-old son. So it's like everything is Roblox.
Yeah. know she's she's very into that as like you know like a Disney cartoons
and and so favorite game of all time
I'm from Japan so I grew up with you know like a Nintendo uh Sega Capcom Namco and uh yeah I like you know uh I like a Pokemon like you know as as a as a you know Japanese boy uh I also like uh some of you know Sonic Sonic title but maybe old titles know that's you know my favorite they're very your choices and you know
look at look at your hosts it's like we are we are of a similar vintage we we

were there
Sonic one you know um so great choices thank you very much and and Nick how about yourself
uh at the moment I'm playing uh a game called Pocket Champs uh it's a sort of a game where you get this little character to to to play different uh different games I again it was like sat on uh sat at home and saw my son playing it and then I downloaded it and stuff. Uh and my favorite game of all time is uh Grand Theft Auto and I am very very much looking forward to GTA 6 when that comes out. Uh probably more excited about that than I should be.
I was there. It's GTA 1. I was the I was the writer Nick. So I I left before it got good, but I understand it's gone on to do quite well without me. So
it's not bad, I think. Yeah, I think their revenues are not bad. Yeah,
it seems to have a bit of a cult following. I think it's fair to say. Um,

well, gentlemen, that that that is fantastic. Thank you again for all of your time, for bringing your expertise and insight into the whole retargeting um topic and I do think there's going to be an awful lot for our audience to unpack.
Absolutely. I just want to also a big plus one for me because this is going to be a top topic, Brian. this isn't the last time we're going to look at it and uh it is important in 2026 because all wins count. So, thank you so much for giving us a blueprint, a little bit of a playbook to follow as we move in and take advantage of this opportunity. Thanks so much.
Thank you. [clears throat]
Yeah, thank you. [music]
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