Now Is the Time! Workers in Games Are Ready to Form Unions

[Music] to get started um just a quick note we have a signup sheet that's circulating so if you could please fill it out so that we can keep in touch that would be absolutely fantastic so that's going around the room right now just fill it out and we'll get in touch with you uh but welcome everybody uh I'd like to welcome you to our panel discussion and also introduce myself my name is Chrissy fouth and I am an international representative and an organizer with the International Alliance of theatrical stage employees that's a long word uh otherwise known as the iatc aka the entertainment Union previously I spent 17 years working in series television animation and in 2022 I came together with my co-workers to form a union at our studio which was a place in New York called tip Mouse you might know us um that led to my

involvement with organizing and working with the iatc to help workers and games form unions at their own Studios I'm joined today by my fellow panelists Andrew Lauren viie and Dan and we're all here to discuss about to discuss today why now is the time for us to unionize and how we can get started today we're also here to address any questions that you might have first of all I would like to extend an extreme thank you to our Union k at Local 16 the stage hands and trade show workers who are behind the scenes of GDC working hard this week to make this event a success so a big round of applause for all of their incredible work this week we're so happy to be at a union event in a union town so why is now the time for us to form unions with all the things that are going on in the news it seems like every day there's yet another announcement of

layoffs at a games company workers are getting cut from their jobs regardless of how long they've dedicated their life to working at a company or how well they've performed at their job people are scared that they're next that their livelihood could be taken away at any time which is exactly why we should form unions now forming a union gives you the right to have consent over your working conditions why should we continue to live our lives in fear of the layoff Hammer coming down when we can stand strong together and protect protect ourselves from the unilateral changes that get made without our input we're the ones that affects the most so why do we not have a say should we wait until things are good and then we become complacent to form our unions in good times and in bad we deserve a seat at the table so first off what is a union a union is you it's an organization formed by you and your co-workers coming together to use your power as a worker to negotiate with with your employer

about the things that matter to you are you forced to work crunch do you have the ability to negotiate an annual raise forming a union creates an ability for you and your co-workers to bargain with your employer to improve your working conditions so what isn't a union they're not a separate group that operates without the will of the workers they represent unions are democratically run organizations that are run by those in their ranks also that's a picture of my tip Mouse crew if you find me in there it's a we's Waldo so the first step to forming a union is talking to one of your co-workers to see how they feel about a union try talking to someone you already know and trust and ask them if they too are concerned about the way things are going at your company or your futures in the games industry do they feel they have the power to negotiate for change on an individual level or would coming together with your co-workers to win a seat at the negotiating table with your boss be a better approach you can reach out to an organizer at ioi or at gamew workers.org or at or at our booth this week we're at

uh p1861 uh to help you get started we'll be with you every step of the way to offer guidance training and our strategy to win organizing your workplace is complicated if it were easy we would have done it already right teaming up with an organizer at aoi helps us strategize the best way for us to win we'll talk to all of your co-workers who are eligible to vote in an nlrb election and find out if we have a super majority of support for a union by talking to them oneon-one and then we will file for a petition at oh my God my notes why they disappeared okay um we'll file for an for a petition with the National Labor Relations Board um at which point your boss has two options one of them is to voluntarily recognize you as a union they basically say I believe you you have the numbers that you say you have uh and we get to the negotiation table as soon as possible or they could force us to an election with the National Labor Relations Board which gives them a period of time for them to launch an anti-union campaign a which can sway

some people into voting no for their Union um but with our strategy to win um we can still win your union regardless of an anti-union campaign so aoi or the IIA for short is the International Alliance of theatrical stage employees also known as the entertainment Union as I said we represent over 160,000 workers in jobs like animation design visual effects camera stage Live Events and even trade show just like GDC with our strategy and organizing methods we've been successful in areas of entertainment where unions historically have not been present before in visual effects we formed the first aoi visual effects Union at Marvel Studios in August of 2023 followed shortly thereafter by visual effects workers at Disney and more recently at Jame James Cameron's studio for the new Avatar movies we've won at an animation studio in a right to work state Powerhouse animation in Texas as well as at Gladius studios in Puerto Rico I wonder if any of y'all are here I don't think so so bummer we've also recently

won for remote animation workers at Disney who live all across the country and work fully remote remote for the studio the most poignant one we have for game workers is that we have formed a union at work in man entertainment which viie was a part of and he is here today to talk about that effort as well so today we're here to talk to you about what you can do right now to start forming a national gamew worker Union what are the things we're currently facing and how can we use our power as laborers to change it for the better how can we frame this as a win-win for everyone involved including our employers we'll talk about why we aren't able to enact change as things stand right now we'll also discuss the things that have been holding us back from moving forward with a union for games and how we can overcome the false narratives we've heard for so long to move forward with the truth and win so with me today are the people who work in games just like you and are also working to change the industry for the better so to kick off our discussion today I would love to pass it over to our four incredible panelists who are helping

work towards a national gamew worker Union so I would love to kick it off to Lauren to introduce herself hello check check hey um I'm Lauren um I'm an animation director and I've been in games for about seven years and I think uh I really love this industry and I want it to thrive and grow and be better than it is so that's I think this is the essential way to make that happen hell yeah hell yeah hell yeah I'm Matthew Vick I'm a project manager at work command interactive I've been in the games industry for 10 almost 11 years uh and we're here to just tell you and I can tell you for a fact all of you are capable of forming unions at your Studios it's possible and it's doable and it's fun love that Andrew hi uh my name's Andrew Baki I've been in the industry for oh gosh 15 years now um and my sort

of radicalization moment was the uh ABK walkouts over the lawsuits and the allegations that came out and the thing that was really frustrating about that was knowing that this was an attempt to sort of sweep things under the rug and and get these stories out of the press and these were stories that needed to be told and over my time in the industry there has been some positive change but there are still a lot of things that suck and uh the only way we're going to fix those things is by using our Collective uh Power to uh get what we want um hi everyone I'm Dan beglov I'm a narrative designer at sensorium and team Gramps I've been in the industry for about three years so I'm still relatively new and that is actually the reason why I started volunteering with the eia which is to represent the interests of newcomers and juniors in the industry especially those those have marginalized backgrounds because um as

my experience and I'm sure others experience has shown uh those people are very uh vulnerable to exploitation due to their passion um for games and um I want people to uh be able to enter the industry with um with like a long career and um like a long and safe career basically yeah as you can tell these people are absolutely incredible and I'm so priv privileged to be up here with them today um so Dan kind of going off of what you were just talking about um what are some things within uh Union contracts that you've heard of or seen before that you think could help protect workers who are entering the workforce yeah one thing is standards around applications uh specifically around tests um as a game writer I'm sure if there's any game writers or narrative designers in the

audience you have uh filled out an unpaid writing test uh and have maybe multiple uh and that's something that is I I find pretty unethical and uh I would like to change that and the IIA has um shown in film and TV that this uh like writing tests can be paid uh and because it's labor so it has to be compensated and essentially just streamlining the process of flying to the industry which can be very obtuse and kind of opaque at times yeah definitely um you know kind of going off of that as well Andrew um thinking about what something that union workers get uh through their contract would be beneficial to you yeah absolutely the thing that I being in the industry for a while what what's the average statistic now it's like SE I think it used to be five and now it's 7 years for like the average tenure in the

game industry that number needs to be way higher and a lot of that comes from stability security talking about things like health care that when if you lose your job that you can still get your medications that you need or uh have being able to retire right being able to collect uh we have some people have 401ks some people have but there's no there are no guarantees there's no real sort of long-term stab other than what you're able to kind of uh claw out for yourself and even just and having these things and not having them sort of swept out from under your feet like quick show of hands who here has like cool Company benefits and perks that are then taken away or changed or removed uh and you did you get it did you get a say in those things changing yeah I didn't think so yeah I think that is a a great segue

into something that I'll ask Lauren about um you know a lot of people who work in animation because you're also an animator right oh absolutely uh I mean that's how I became interested and involved with the IAS because as an animator um you know there's a whole uh animation Guild in Los Angeles and uh I was always jealous of all of the power that they had with their employers and I thought well why don't we have that in games and I'm I'm an animator too and uh I want my fellow co-workers to have that power as well um so yeah yeah definitely and I I think viie that also resonates with you right uh yeah but I I can't relate to Andrew's issue right now because um I don't have to worry about a lot of my benefits being taken away we got our uh recognition our Union recognized past in the past October and while we're still in contract negotiation and that could

take a while um in the short term all of our Ben benefits that we have they are locked in our company can't change them so [Applause] yeah so recently uh was the Activision Blizzard or some company they had like their remote working policy revoked right and that's something everyone's worried about and at our company we still have that remote work policy and we're taking advantage of it uh we have a very generous vacation package just lots of really great great benefits that were always like something we were worried about disappearing and that worry is gone um and it's incredibly empowering because we take so much ownership over our work we work on games uh with small teams we put our Heart and souls into these things and when you put so much ownership into your work like it just made sense for our company especially that you would put that same amount of care into your working conditions we have owner ship over our

working conditions and it feels great yes H I love a hell yeah um so going off of that viie I'm just going to throw it right back to you um but you what what now that you have your union you have the ability to negotiate terms around your job so what was it like before that um so we have a kind of small company culture um our CEO we'd hang out with them pretty regularly some of our executive staff like we go on Hikes together um so we always just kind of thought if you wanted changes in the company well we just talk to our friends you know we're hanging out with them all the time we can make asks but we found over time like just changes didn't happen that way you can ask for things but friends are well within their rights to say no because you know it's a you know nice relationship you have with a friend and they felt they could just say no the only time we really really found things that our company change was when

we accidentally found ourselves doing Collective action um one year uh we decided hey let's just share salary numbers because we feel like some of us aren't getting paid enough so all of us got together and we just started sharing what everyone made and we found out oh some people are they're making a good amount of money and it was never like oh you're making too much it was always like oh you should ask for more so we shared this information and we all ended up having like really nice raises that year because we were able to go into those negotiations with that knowledge um yeah you should all do it at your workplace you should try it out it's wonderful um we also had uh parking passes revoked at one point uh they didn't want to because you know remote work policy not everyone was coming in uh they decided okay well we'll just take them back and we'll reimburse you for parking well at our company not the best at reimbursement at the time and all of us had just independently of each

other emailed the same message to our CEOs to our producers because we didn't know who made the decision and all of a sudden within an hour this was like changed they took that back so when we found all these you know bits of collective action working over time all of a sudden once the union question came up it was will this work well it's historically worked at our company in the past and we've all benefited from it so why would this turn out any different 100% um so I'm going to throw it over to you Andrew um as someone who doesn't work under a Union contract have you found any venues for yourself to make change at your workplace uh venues yes but are they effective uh not at all the the the analogy I like using is that it's like a a a Pachinko machine right but all but there's no way to win where everyone's doing active you know the the CEOs are listening they've got an open door policy come in and tell us your wos

and your problems and we'll hold active listening sessions and and we'll we'll definitely make some changes around here right and then what happens right maybe you get some token gestures but by and large it kind of falls on deaf ears and there's also the fear that you're kind of ending up on someone's list uh and so there's a there's sort of a power Dynamic and a social pressure there to to not really voice your actual concerns in that case and I think that really the only Power that we have as individuals still that is commonly practiced in our industry is quit leave you have to go to a place where the grass is greener where that level of corporate BS that they have is more palatable than whatever you're currently dealing with at your current workplace and it's just this crapshoot of is this going to be the next company that can take care of me or

am I going to have to just keep hopping around so it is really sort of a a a trap that you can fall into if you're uh not if you're not paying attention to it Lauren do you feel like that is something similar to what you've experienced yeah very similar um back when I was kind of a junior just getting started um I was unaware of all the different ways that an employer can take advantage of you um and I realized that the whole studio was going through a tough time cuz everyone was kind of complaining and mumbling amongst ourselves about things and management had uh started quote unquote listening to us and kind of gave us these meetings they're like we want to hear what's uh what you're what you guys are dealing with and we want to try to help you out um and I was naive and thought Oh that's awesome they're listening to us you know I can sit next to the uh CFO and and say like this or that like we need to change this and I felt like I was being heard

but uh a month two months three months passed nothing changed there was no actual accountability for my uh employers um and that was very frustrating and and I want to add too like even when things did change and when it seemed like they did listen that's great but again the count there is no like real accountability that they have to that they have to do anything that you say or that you want them to do so yeah and Dan as as somebody who's new right feeling that ability to hold your employer accountable for stuff is kind of a challenge right yeah absolutely uh so in in my short tenure in the industry so far I've been pretty lucky to have uh people who are interested in my professional development on like the managerial side but at the end of the day um if the organization isn't interested in changing things then um like one manager can't really do much so

Collective action is really the only way to get kind of pressure like on the collect like on the like I guess the industry scale like setting the precedent for things to change because like at the end of the day one person can only do so much true um so with that in mind you know if we're going to our employers to ask for these changes collectively right we form our Union and we're ready to ask for change how can we frame that as like a good thing for both sides so um collective bargaining between workers and management sets a precedent right it sets a standard um and standards create stability and stability is needed for long-term like productive growth for companies so any com any company that's interested in long-term growth uh and like a beneficial relationship with its

workers needs to have some sort of agreement and like a union agreement is exactly that kind of agreement definitely um how does that resonate with you viie I want to look at this a little bit from my boss's perspective because you know running a business is a morally complex sort of situation making the best business decisions are not always like the best moral decisions um and it's a balancing act of you know trying to do right by your not just the people that you employ but the people that you hopefully want to keep employed over the long term and sometimes they think it's okay to maybe the people who are going to be leaving maybe not treat them so well but for the rest of us like we don't see it that way but management isn't seeing it from our perspective all the time they have to worry about the decisions they need to make and they're going to justify their actions for that greater good that they're doing um one of the things that

uh is going to happen once our unions like go through we have the contract is we're going to have a labor committee uh and this is very standard for a lot of unions where it's a group of co-workers that we're just going to trust uh to communicate with management and management will have to talk to them so if there's any major changes that happen or even just every six months or so like you know hey we have an influx of money what's a good way to you know manage this well let's talk with the labor committee and figure out a way to move move this stuff around um it gives us a seat at the table so that management really does have to listen they're not doing this from a weird Black Box where they're thinking about everyone is just like components of this business mathematics they have to look Us in the face and they need to see if they can make those judgments uh and I think that'll end up pretty good for everybody yeah definitely um Lauren I think that also you've mentioned things in the past to me about similar things that Dan was

talking to about sustainability but also like diversity within games can you elaborate on that yeah totally um I think I diversity is is just a small piece of the pie but I think it's probably one of the most important pieces uh and if we can if we can bargain to have a more diverse industry as a whole we'll have a more profitable industry as a whole um we make games that people Play All Around the Globe and everybody wants to see themselves represented and you can't make something if it's not coming from a genuine place like if if we're not a diverse Workforce then we can't create a diverse uh craft we can't we can't make diverse games um so if we can start to do that if I think a union is what we need to help us start to do that more and more uh then we'll have a more profitable industry as a whole would you agree with that andw do you think that um

ultimately forming unions will help us kind of like diversify within games uh definitely especially in the sense that by create to kind of um what Dan and was talking about in in this answer and Lauren in the previous answer the idea that you're being able to hold your employer accountable for the promises that they sell you right when they try to get you over there and they've got their mission statement on their website and their values and their pillars that they believe in but then when push comes to shove they're more than willing to uh conveniently ignore those because it's not legally binding right you're it's just a puff piece on a website so when you're able to get these uh when you're able to hold an employer accountable and when the employer is willing to allow themselves to be held accountable in a negotiating setting then at at the very

least you have a dynamic where I think that is an attractive thing for an employer to offer because if I'm going to go look for a company and the company promises me something and they say and we'll put it in writing legally we are going to give you these perks and there's nothing you know and there's nothing that we can do about it without your say so I think that that will attract a lot of talent in uh the industry because they know that there's that Safety and Security there well said Andrew um so kind of going off of that thinking about how like there's that myth that we're forming unions because we're here to like rip it to the ground and set it on fire and start everything all over but what we're really trying to do here is build sustainability and and longevity in our careers so like what's a what's a common misconception that you had about unions before you started getting involved yeah but the the one the the big one is the idea that the union is

this alien you're you're swapping out the company contract for this alien thirdparty contract that the union is this this entity that's going to come in and sweep you off your feet and solve all of your current problems but replace them with another set of problems and the big thing that was eye openening for me about that was uh I found out that that is anti-un propaganda that is called third partying and that is absolutely a tactic that they use to divide and conquer where they say no no no the union is uh this other that is going to come in and and just muck everything up and you don't you don't get any guarantees and learning that the union is something that you form with your co-workers from the ground up uh you're you're there the every step of the way and that's really empowering yeah absolutely um viie as somebody who's organized their workplace I'd love

to know what you thought was a misconception about unions um a concept misconception that I got uh bombarded with every time I had one-on-one conversations with my co-workers uh was the idea that joining a union had like a series of like you know one two three here are the things that happen now that we're a union here are the things that we have to accept people wondered well is it going to be like in teachers unions like are we going to have tenure and then like it's going to be hard to like go of somebody or something are we going to have like all these crazy regulations of who can do what like I'm not allowed to touch a chair because I'm not in this right Union um and really we had to keep telling them no it's what we want we're the ones that are setting those conditions and now that we're going through a lot of the a long process creating that contract we have long conversations with you guys about the way that we want our workplace to run and the way that we like it uh and I

think we've confused you guys on a few things at least um but it the contract is incredibly specific to our workplace it's incredibly specific to our culture um and that's just been a really great thing to see yeah definitely um Lauren what makes you what what what did you have as as as a thing that you didn't fully understand about unions before you started yeah before I learned about unions I kind of also thought it was this third party situation where um it was just yet another uh big group that was going to take advantage of my passion right like we we're all passionate workers you know why else would be we be putting up with this crazy industry right we love what we do we're passionate some of us are creative some of us are technical it doesn't matter what we do but we love we love it and that's easy to exploit unfortunately and that's been my experience um a lot of the time so far and I kind of was weary of unions cuz I'm like oh great

it's just another entity that's going to you know exploit my passion and I don't want another one to deal with right um but yeah I mean as everyone else has been saying uh I was pleasantly surprised to learn that um that the union is us and uh as long as we're all participating and we're all learning together how this works and and literally like the union is us we're not going to exploit ourselves so yeah definitely Dan again as somebody who's who's new and is concerned about exploitation is that something that you were concerned about before you got involved yeah absolutely um as someone yeah who's entering the industry I'm always like it it it's natural to be wary about like a big organization kind of stepping in and like dictating your interests basically but that's again not at all uh what a union is a union is uh us the work workers it is up to us to establish it it is up to us to negotiate

it and it is up to us to um maintain it uh i' also like to touch on another thing um a lot of people who are even like interested in unionizing and have like beliefs about like Collective action uh see kind of striking as uh the be all and end all of unions like uh something that's something that really comes up in the media a lot when unions are mentioned as like specifically like last year uh but that is not nearly everything that a union can like help you with uh it is a last resort that has proven effective but Union can offer you so much more than that like from negotiating your healthare benefits uh like all sorts of mutual Aid are something that a union can help you with if you uh put in the work to establish and maintain it absolutely 100% um so kind of like diverting to a whole another subject now but um viie I'd like to ask you why the was the choice for you uh so it's kind of a

special case for us uh working work Comm man interactive we work with a lot of clients like uh Disney uh Marvel Nickelodeon uh and we kind of noticed they all had associations not only through the uh unionizing efforts through the VFX that we were aware of so like Marvel Disney uh you know Avatar are involved with that but also you know many of our we worked with some of the showrunners on some of these shows and we knew that they were like animation Guild members so we were like oh maybe if we work with the iatc maybe they'll reach out like once we go public and they did we got so many nice messages from so many of these different people um I won't name any names I won't name any companies but like they didn't just send them to us they sent them to my CEO saying congratulations on your game Union yeah 100% um Lauren I feel like you have that

connection to Folks at the animation Guild but for for games work why do you believe the IIA is best position uh there's a lot of reasons but yeah obviously I can see uh that there the I is well well versed in crafts right um specifically animation I I see how things are going there and I they I know that they understand the kind of work that we do in games um and then I I also have just been really impressed by like the ia's uh uh strategy of like informing right we're here now like just learning and and making sure that all of the workers understand what a union is um because I think a union is so much stronger when we're all a big part of it otherwise like I I I don't know I wouldn't want to be part of a union that just like does the work for everyone CU then no one would understand and we wouldn't have the power that is the point it's the whole point of a union so I I really really uh get behind that

aspect of the IIA that it really is the workers and um they're there to help us and inform us how this even works and make sure we're prepared so yeah it's cool unionism is highly participatory um Andrew is somebody who doesn't necessarily have that connection to folks who work in already established Iasi crafts how do you feel about the IIA uh yeah the thing that I like about uh the IIA is that ultimately they know the games industry even if they don't know that yet in the sense that making games is a highly create I'm I'm preaching to the choir here right but uh yeah you're uh games are art right highly creative highly uh these these beautiful works that are made it's also highly technical you need very specific skill sets you need to learn how to use an editor or

you need to learn how to make your own editor or you know all of these different things and and disciplines and there's this spectrum of uh creative craft to technical discipline that games it lives and breathes all the time and navigating that and forming a union you need to be a it it needs to the union needs to work for all of us right it needs to work work for the super creative designers it needs to work for the super crunchy programmers it needs to work for artists and all of these different disciplines that come together to make a game and uh navigating that water and making sure that one group isn't left out in these negotiations uh is something that I think that the the IIA has experience with with VFX unions and the animation Guild and things like that definitely um how about you Dan as a narrative designer how does the I resonate with you um I would like to

just uh Echo Andrew's point about like benefits like that this should benefit everyone from like the most crunchy programmers to narrative designers and artists um but I think like I particularly respect iat's bottomup approach to making sure everyone in the studio gets a voice uh and gets the opportunity to vote on their Union um and I think the long-term goal is to establish uh a industrywide Union presence that can stand up to management demands across companies and I think the Ia has the best strategy to achieve that with holistically getting in as many people as possible like one Studio at a time hell yeah um I say hell yeah a lot I apologize um so a question for all of the panelists and also for everybody in the audience um if you had a union vote today would you

vote Yes hell yeah hell yeah raise those hands love to see it let's do a vote right now everybody we're a union we did it this is great um just small fires just small fires um well that's fantastic I'm so glad that there's so many of you in this room that are open and supportive of of forming unions and we can't do this work without you we have to do it together um it's y'all at your Studios forming your unions uh we're here to help and support and make sure that happens uh but we can't do it without you um so I'd love to open it to the floor for questions if anybody has any please step up to the mics that are available oh I love it a long line let's start on the left side and then we'll go to the right side there um

so I work as a sound designer um out of Canada um and a lot of my work is typically through contract it's very hard to get inous work um so I'm just wondering like what power do I have as a contractor if any power at all to make unionization happen or or work for me in any way does anybody want to answer that oh so the question was uh what power do you have as a contractor to be able to form a union at your company or or just in general like working through my life as a contractor how to Union or how can I facilitate unionization yeah I can take that um yeah not quite the same power as like full-time employees but like way more than you think you can establish uh uh an agreement with the company that you're working at uh if you and your contracts uh co-workers I mean you have to reach out to the other contractors if you reach out to your employer and say hey uh we are only going to work under these set conditions uh you can do that

and they can have you they'll I mean they don't have to go with that but you can you know do stuff to make sure that like they'll go along with it not necessarily strike you can do like a one-day thing you can even just like you know hey let's just tamper down stuff a little bit um I have seen this happen with some other uh uh game folks otherwi in other areas of the industry um I've talked to them about it and it's honestly the same process you are just talking to people you trust fellow contractors you're talking to them one by one you're getting a game planned together and then once you're ready you go ahead and announce um you can reach out to ayatti and they're going to have all the recommendations for how you can go about that process um and they'll have some amazing resources to make sure that you guys are trained and you can handle that properly they did an amazing job training us uh and we felt really prepared so I'm I'm sure you'd be uh in good hands also um correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that ioty is like

all of our pre-existing Union contracts are largely uh contract based anyways contract based employees so yeah um that's a lot of entertainment work is gig work it's Project based it's contract based and um historically for over a hundred years we've written contracts for workers who are under that Project based sort of working model um but definitely come by our booth and we can talk more about that great thanks what yeah over on this side um the previous questioner was from Canada and the first letter of AI is international um so what can aoti do to help with unionizing Studios and coordinating unionization that are across countries I feel like I'm just going to answer that um so uh the inat you're right is inter is international we are international in the United States Canada and Puerto Rico um but that does not necessarily mean that we do not work globally to help people AC around the

globe form unions in their countries um labor law varies wildly from country to country and our jurisdiction remains within the United States Canada and Puerto Rico um so that's like the law language we know um but we have consistent conversations with a group called uni Global which is a global unionization effort um because again like we're talking about game workers worldwide and we want to make sure that labor around the globe is is protected um all workers deserve rights regardless of of their location so it is a really important conversation to be having to talk about unions in other countries and how we can collaborate great question I love that we were also talking with the uh the I I forget the acronym but the the great Brit the the one in the UK right the inter independent workers of Great Britain yes um they're awesome folks let's go on this side hi um I know there's a massive line so I'm definitely going to try to keep it short but um I'm I'm currently a student and um I feel

like I really um enjoyed hearing you guys talk about uh people who are newer in the industry um just because I feel like a lot of the time they're kind of left out of the conversation um I feel like it's pretty fair to say as a student um a lot of a lot of us feel like feel like it's really easy to take advantage of students um just because there's this sort of like desperation and like fear that like plagues a lot of students trying to break in you know there's so many it's kind of a very messy messy time like I feel like that's fair to say um so I was just kind of curious um specifically about like Dan's um experience is kind of someone newer to the industry about whether you've faced like kind of um what kind of reaction was given to you when you kind of expressed interest in un unionization um or if there was even some kind of like push back to that interest and then how II supports um just a little bit more information maybe but how II supports like people newer to the industry or people trying to break in um or like kind of where to where to start if

that's where you are thank you yeah uh absolutely um great question yeah I would love to take that um so as students and newer people in the industry you're entering like a very opaque like I said and sometimes pretty hostile place right but um the thing is your peers as students they will end up like getting jobs some of them and once you have a job you are a worker that can unionize and as a student right now you can start having these conversations with people um because a union like starting a union is all conversation based uh and like since you're like preparing to enter the industry you can start learning about your rights as a worker so that when you do enter the industry you don't fall prey to like the exploitation that um some like management uh inflicts on a newer and like people and students uh but also just like keeping in contact with

everyone in your network once they get jobs at Studios talk to them about unionizing in the meantime like learn about it and get ready to start doing it once you do the workforce but also um ioi has been incredibly supportive um like I've since I've started volunteering at the AC at ioi they've been incredibly supportive of um me as like as a junior um narrative designer and they've like consistently heard me out about like the particular interests that like newer people in the industry have had as opposed to like veterans it's a very different set of concerns but at the end of the day we are all workers and we all want to um have the industry that benefits us all form unions yes form a student union I always told my students that you have unpaid internships yes yeah thank you for mentioning that um yeah as a student you do also have like a right to form a

union especially like if you are employed in any capacity you can unionize yeah yeah and with regards to like retaliation or like that that fear that that is something that employers can have have traditionally relied on to kind of keep you quiet and uh the important thing is knowing your rights they they cannot threaten you with with firing over organizing that is a that is a protected right that you have so by learning like Dan was saying learning these things and knowing knowing what you're allowed to do uh will just give you that much more of a leg up so the it the the union busting Playbook is uh remarkably stale for the the companies they pull out they've been pulling the same tricks for the last hundred years or so and uh yeah and I and ioi knows how to combat those hell yeah I'm still terrified but but thank you that was great you can do it hell yeah we'll take

this one so I wanted to ask a very similar question um how have has aat say uh treated the idea of maybe going at a guild level for you know career paths because there is so much turnover there are small companies that'll maybe make one g game and then disappear and there'll be 30 other companies in that town you're going to hop around between all these companies you can't make a union every time you need a union that you are already in that'll help you get into places stay in places and afterwards oh I I would okay you're looking at me I'll answer it um so uh a great model for us to look at for that sort of idea is is the animation Guild and while there are really large employers within that there are also really small employers within it um so it's not to exclude small employers and it's also not to say that if one shutters that the there aren't others

that are part of that Union that that those union workers can go to um you know it it's about building that large network with employers of all sizes small to large so that we can have that Mobility to go from place to place and still be Union um and while that doesn't happen overnight we need the people that are working at those Studios to form the unions at their Studios so that we can have that kind of like mobility within jobs does that answer you your question or do you want to add I add go you go oh okay um so a matter of creating an industrywide Union for game workers doesn't involve just going to that end point uh there is a lot of work involved with just getting independent companies to go along because once you have unions set up at certain shops like all of a sudden like the demands that they make they become standardized across the industry and you see that like in a lot of different Industries if you look

historically uh the things that workers fight for eventually just kind of become taken for granted you know weekends that came out of you know Union efforts you know workers you know revolting in the streets making sure that it happened um when we reach the point where we have like an industrywide Guild like that's kind of the point where like you are dealing with uh the Publishers have to to start having their own like Union to try to like fight against our power um that is a long goal uh that probably is going to come faster than I imagine I'm very conservative when it comes to this sort of stuff and my I a lot of my co-workers are way more accelerationist about it than I am um it's a thing that'll happen but there's a lot of really amazing transformational things that are going to happen when these just happen at company company company so those are the steps I'm I'm really excited about you look at these places as like they'll rise and fall uh I don't

see it falling I see those workers all of a sudden going to other places where they're like well I'm used to this I'm used to having these work conditions and I have the tools necessary to fight for it again uh and make it faster this time make it better this is something that's going to spread like wildfire you didn't need me to answer that yeah um Lauren did you want to add anything to that I I want to hear more questions I I think it's a good place to end so side to on top of to add on top of that what what about um like okay so to add to of both that and the international question what and what if it what if it's some like an organization that's technically not not a union but can but can operate like like one to try to like basically an an unofficial Union to try to bypass the

the whole thing with with different countries having different an unofficial Union yeah to bypass like the the whole thing about about different counts having different labor laws all that um that's really that's a really in-depth question um I have a bunch of other IIA reps here who could definitely help answer that so I would encourage you to meet us out in the hall we all have these shirts on um so that I can get the best answer for for you okay I apologize that I don't have that answer for you right now um we'll go to this side hey uh so I'm actually with I local 28 up in Portland Oregon we glad to have you and we do stage and trade and it is so exciting to be here and see you guys here because it means that what we get the good stuff we get you guys are going to get oh yeah and that you can do it II can help you do it and it's worth it but I got a question too yeah

absolutely so the question is basically how does aoi support workers through more contentious organization or labor dispute issues what are some examples of [Music] that I don't want to go into the examples of that I mean you don't have to give examples but okay um or just say yeah I I will say and I'm going to give a lot of credit to my CEO um we don't have as many contentious issues as I think like we were expecting um once you have a big organization kind of enter in like there's a level of respect there that like I wasn't ready for our CEO lets our Union know ahead of time about like almost anything uh that's going on anything where they think the union might need to get involved um it's been a little bit more chivalrous than I was expecting going in um as far as the contentious issues they got lawyers who are very good at talking uh and they are

very good at communicating with us and letting us so letting us know uh what the company said um it's you know we'll have things happen um but it's just been like a very smooth process for the most part like I don't I don't worry day-to-day about a lot of things they worry about it sorry keeps me up at night two in the morning once I'm pretty sure yeah that's okay um yeah I mean we have the the power of the of all the um IA behind it so our legal team um our organizing team um we're all here to help and support uh and facilitate as much as we can so um yeah 100% behind it hey well thank you very much yeah I appreciate you being here uh we'll have time for just one more question I apologize but anybody else who's still in line please I encourage you to meet us out in the hallway or come by our booth to ask your questions to us direct LLY because we're we're here to help and answer your questions so please definitely come by

we'll hang out in the hallway afterwards really sorry I really appreciate what you guys do I appreciate the twitch streams the Outreach the talk thank you um I'm actually just here to say if any of you work at Electronic Arts or if you know anyone who works at Electronic Arts come talk to me okay thank you love that love that get in [Applause] there we got time yeah if he was the last one um Mulligan Mullan it ah Magic the Gathering reference nice love it all righty Andrew Jorgenson Junior game design student at Indiana University Indianapolis um um as someone with uh neurodivergent uh disabilities and stuff I feel that um for those for those individuals like myself that are attending here today um I feel that um that that when it comes

to um like entering the industry particularly like um with like game design programming and stuff we tend like it like a major issue for individuals like us is like overthinking and stuff and it kind of hinders our ability to like um you know kind of gives us you know insecurities or you know hurting our confidence when it comes to like you know growing in soft game programming and stuff and like because there's so many different variables and stuff of like do we need to add this does this need to be refined and stuff and and it's just I'm like I was just curious about whether or not um whether or not there is a need for neurode Divergent you know members of the gaming industry Community to be represented by ioty in the near future yes ABS absolutely absolutely I think that's a very important aspect of the yeah it's an important aspect of of the diversity that I think a a unions like us can can make sure that we can

represent and and write into our contracts so absolutely it's very important yeah yeah CU sometimes you know with overthinking and stuff we can get so you know wrapped up in overthinking that we can't even think we can't even you know program anything because like we're just oh I don't know what to do it's like individuals like us we can relate to that can we yeah yeah it's like so I'm like would you mind if I added something to that too yes go ahead I am like a neurod Divergent person and like thank you for like asking those question is also like a very important thing to ask uh but like a Union contract can ensure that you have accomodations as a neurod Divergent individual that their um your employer can't impose things on you that would be especially difficult on you as a member of the neurod Divergent Community which includes like uh specific dead or um even like being able to be in the

office which like for uh neur Devion people or like physically disabled folks can be really difficult so um having a Union contract will definitely like help you as then you're a Divergent person I say as someone who is also that yeah absolutely we need uh representation and like you you you say you're worried about overthinking it but really what we are all game developers here and what do game developers do best we solve really complex problems and we overthink a ton right who I I can think of no better group of people to dismantle a find a broken system figure out what's wrong with it dismantle it and build a new system that is robust accounts for all of the different players in the game is uh you know a tested and approved and has all of the pieces needed to be like

an actual because that's that's our job that's our day-to-day job so I'm really excited to see what happens when game developers really start digging in getting rolling up their sleeves and digging into uh the particulars of of rebuilding this system in a way that works for all of us [Applause] um also just a quick note before I wrap this up for today um that uh sign in sheet is still circulating so if you haven't signed in please do sorry evaluations evaluations fill out the evaluations oh fill out the evaluations yes do that too um also we're going to have a party tomorrow night uh at Tempest bar and box if you have not rsvpd please do if you got a Zen that QR code in the Zen will take you to a link link up top page hell yeah right there Diana um and uh it will take you to a

link up top page where you can find all of our stuff this week um but please come by our booth let's talk let's talk more about this because like this doesn't happen without you it's got to happen with you um and again big thank you to the Local 16 folks who are here working this event and uh look forward to seeing y'all in the halls and at our booth p1861 we will see you all again very soon thank you [Music]