Nick Button-Brown on Studio Funding | What's Really Happening in 2026

Each time I've had a problem with my startups, the people that have helped me the most have been the angels. Um, they've been the ones that were there. They've been through it. They could they could give you the stories. They gave you support. They welcome to the pocket gamer.biz podcast. I'm your host Peggy Ansalts and of course Craig. Having you back is a joy. We have been doing this series our top 50 mobile games and now we're going to look at the power I think behind who's shaping the business of games. So first of all just great to have you and uh hope it's been good in your world.
It's always good to be on the podcast. Uh as a British person obviously have to now talk about the weather. The clocks have changed which is always confusing. I'm now in my 30s. I won't say just how close to my 40s I am. [clears throat] And uh and throughout my life, I've never actually realized when do the clocks go back and when do they go forward. So every year I ask the same

question. Uh but yeah, it's now dipped to below 10. So I've got the got the heating on finally. You know, big big topic of discussion in the UK.
I was going to say it was like a big gift. It was like I woke up on Sunday. It's like, hey, look at that. I slept in. But it doesn't matter. I am good. So, we are in a good place and I'm excited because joining us is someone I said it's sort of like the power behind those amazing companies because we have Nick Button Brown who's been building the ecosystem. We're going to find out what that means. But first of all, Nick, I have to tell people who you are because I was blown away. It's one of the longest, most impressive and and sort of broad bios I've ever seen because you've led global teams at EA. You've helped improbable to scale and raise $600 million, guided sensible object into and through its sale to Niantic. And these days, well, you're not resting on your laurels because

you'd share outright gains, sit on the boards of Coherence 106, Adeno, another company that I have high on the radar. You advise founders, funds, studios around the world through the games angels and also co-chair of the UK video games council working to position UK's position as a global hub for innovation and investment. So I just have to ask the question on my mind is like one how do you do it and two can we have what you drink in the morning? [laughter] Well, I did a careers speech at my son's school and I was talking about, you know, portfolio careers, how to manage that, and one of the kids came up with the coldest question I've ever had, which like, "So, are you okay with the fact you're never going to make a game again?" Like,
no, now you say it like that, I'm definitely not. But, yeah, I mean, the the way I deal with it is I don't make stuff anymore. I I I help other people

make things. I help other people shape things, Nick. You know, that's just it. You help people and I think that, you know, it depends on your passion for games. Some people are just like very deeply into it and not making a game would be like that would not be the way to go. But look at what you've done. You managed to stay at the center of so many exciting projects, investing, advising, mentoring. I also saw you in LinkedIn recently with your mission, you know, to um to create and motivate people in the UK for a games hub. So, I have to ask you, what keeps you motivated?
Um, the games industry has been great to me. I mean, I I I kind of went outside to tech for a bit and I didn't enjoy it. I came back to games because games are my people. Games are the people that I understand that I want to work with. So, I've reached the stage of my life where it's time to give back. And so, this is me trying to help other companies, give them give them a slightly better chance,

at least help them not make the same mistakes that I made. Um, you know, if I can save a company one single mistake, that can be the difference between failure and success. So yeah, I I think it's it's up to it's up to us to make sure that the next generation has the best chance of success. But yes, there is a fundamental acceptance that it's not going to be me making them anymore. And I I am normally okay with that. Let's just not dwell on it too much.
Well, can I get back to the question of what you what you do? I mean, I just love to know what your daily routine looks like or if you're drinking some tea or coffee or substance I need to get my hands on. [laughter] Um, I I I it's it is it's connecting people. It's finding opportunities. It's finding ways that people can help each other and just trying to facilitate and and help magic things happen. That

wasn't very eloquent. I apologize for that. I think it was just honest, but uh we'll we'll keep with that. I mean, Craig, I think you know Nick a bit. He's been chatting out there. He's been chatting with you and chatting at PGC events. Is that how the two of you connected? I'm just curious.
We've we've met a couple times usually, I think, through PGC. I remember you from your improbable days. I was at Develop I think at that time. We interviewed you a few times way back when for magazines from anyone ever remembers print.
Wow. Um, but uh I guess like uh we won't dwell on it too much after this then I guess but like you've obviously been at you've been at Improbable EA Cryotics. So like when was the point where you decided you're going to step into more an investor role or had I guess had you kind of been starting to do that anyway and then you just sort of
I don't want to say fell into it but then that became your focus. as I was leaving Improbable, I think I came I

came to the realization that I wasn't very good at working for other people. Um, which which to me was this amazing realization and I was talking about it, you know, I kind of really I bared my soul to my wife and my wife went, "Yeah." Like, well, you've only just realized that you're not very good at working for other people. I'm like, "Thanks, sweetie. Could have told me that 10 years ago and saved me a lot of pain." Um so coming out of that I decided to start helping other companies had a few startups helped set up a few startups. Some of them were good some of them did very well. Some of them were valiant efforts that it doesn't quite work out. Um, and so I kind of shifted to not doing anything full-time and just kind of helping out and spreading myself around a few different companies on the basis that that period of time I could help them much more than if I was trying to be somewhere full-time. Um coming out of that then I started talking to cool

other startups and started doing a little bit of investing which during lockdown I'd been I each time I've had a problem with my startups the people that had helped me the most have been the angels. Um they've been the ones that were there. They'd been through it. They could they could give you the stories. They gave you support. They gave you advice. But it was really based on yeah I've been there and done that. And so in lockdown decided to put a few of the angels that had invested in me with a few of the other people that were uh kind of investing in games companies and we formed the games angels. The games angels is it is a poorly managed badly administered collection of games industry veterans who sometimes invest in games companies but always give help. Um, you know, it's it's it's experienced people that work within the games industry. They can make connections, give advice,

and at the very least say, "Don't do that. I did that. It didn't work." Um, so make your own fresh new mistakes.
Like obviously it's been a tough few years for the industry like as we all know. I won't go into like loads of detail. Obviously, studio closures, layoffs,
generally like a lack of in investment. So in like where do you see things at the moment from I guess from an investment standpoint as we're kind of going into 2026 it feels like just anecdotally and I obviously seen some reports but just from covering stories um there's a lot more generally a lot more investment coming back or some more investment coming back. Where do you think things are? Is it still uh studios still finding it really tough? Is that is that what you're hearing or things improve?
It's definitely studios are finding it tough. There is more investment coming back in. There are it feels like angels are investing. Um at the same time I

think there's less venture capital investment that there was but there's more private equity coming in. So with each with one hand you take away and with the other hand you give back. Um, I'm seeing more investment from um, publishers again, which for a while publishers just weren't investing at all. They weren't funding any games. And now you're starting to see not large amounts. Um, there's a sweet spot. They definitely like smaller projects. There's a, you know, if you're a, if you're making a AAA game, it's particularly hard to get money at the moment.
But yeah, I think there are green shoots. Um, it's not across the board. What I'm seeing a lot more of, and I like this, is is kind of hustlers making it work. So whereas, you know, three years ago, you could go in, yeah, I worked on League of Legends, give me 10 million dollars. Um, and that was, you know, that that was a way people raised money off the back of that. You're now seeing kind of hybrid rounds where

people are working it. They're taking a bit of angel money. They're adding in a bit of uh non-games money, maybe some grants, maybe a few small funds. And you know, there's a couple of companies that have raised really interesting hybrid rounds. So uh Ritter at Brain Spark raised 1.3 million. Um Emily at JCO raised 950K. You know, these are they've worked for them and they've had to work for them. It hasn't been handed to them. They've worked. They've worked. they've worked and they've produced these these kind of rounds that give both those companies a good chance.
Is there something you have to put in like your uh in your pitch deck? Like what what do you think is the most interesting to investors right now? So for example, does someone have to say and there's an AI element to our business like like back to the metaverse blockchain now it's AI?
Yeah. Yeah, you kind of do. Um right now certainly there are groups of investors there is money available for AI related things. It it died off for a bit but

it's coming back as people are starting to look for the the second generation of AI. Um I I'm going to mention Susan at 106. Uh she's using AI to make hyperpersonalized games. Um that's a that's a kind of that is a thing that couldn't have been done before. That is a thing that couldn't have been done without AI. And that for me is the next generation of AI. So yeah, there are certain magic buzzwords. Um it does piss me off. I'm sorry. Uh it does. I I did when when Alex and I were at Sensible Object, we had one day when we were a bit pissed off. So we decided to go through and put every buzzword we could think of into our deck. And we just it was just, you know, the the I'm trying to say it without a rude word. It was Yeah, it was buzzword bingo. There we go. That's that's the that's the non rude version of it.
And um and we pitched it and we pitched

it to somebody we didn't really care about and they loved it.
And at that moment, a little bit of our souls died.
Um
Oh my goodness.
Yeah,
it says so much though about the industry. I mean, I want to I want to get back to the question that you raised as well, Craig. You know, what is gaining traction? So, yeah. Okay. Now we've got buzzword bingo. I hope we didn't give anybody out there ideas because that's that's that's that's a sad way to go. But um
any press release I get [laughter]
exactly it's AI or AI powered AI enabled now have second gen AI but particular genres monetization models leadership styles what is really attracting or getting traction you know monetization I'm hearing so much about hybrid of course you just talked about a hybrid approach to um to leadership to finding funding it seems as if it's a a bit of everything out there but are there any clear areas?

Uh, no there's not. It's not like if you if you are doing this thing then you will do all right. Um, it it's I mean I'm seeing free to start as I'm seeing a lot of companies kind of using the term free to start now as a as a replacement for freeto play or as an alternative to freeto play. Um I things that I like I like cross media things. The this idea that you're creating a central experience that can be experienced anyway ultimately it can be through your smart TV and your mobile phone and you know maybe it's a set of goggles at some stage. Um definitely investors like something that feels new and innovative. So if you're pitching to investors, you can't you can't come out with a here is what's been done many times before because you'll get the feedback. So what's what makes you unique? What makes you special? What makes you protectable? And what they mean by that is what is your advantage that means that you will be

successful over the other 10 companies in there. If you can't make that argument, you're not going to be successful in raising money. Um but often that can be it's a new thing. It's a thing that hasn't been done before. Um, well, that also means it's an unproven thing, which means there's no guarantee it will be successful.
And what about their own cred? You said before, you know, you could just say, "Hey, I was I used to work on League of Legends. Here I am. I'm investable." What's different about um people who are pitching how they need to be presenting themselves?
Um, I I think it is uh I'm I'm going to mention Ridda. uh she I had a call with her um and I I wasn't paying any attention to it. I was fitting it in between a couple of other meetings actually walking down Farington Road
and she got me within 30 seconds.
Within 30 seconds, she did a pitch so good. I was like, "Yeah." And all of a

sudden,
I'm on her side. I'm working with her. So, she came up with a clarity of vision that was so fantastic. Um well, she just managed to pitch it to Dragon's Den. So, she was on Dragon's Den um the end of last week and got three angels behind it.
Wow.
So, that's how good she is at pitching. So, it's it's how to get to that credible emotional story, the thing that makes me go, "Yeah, I want to be part of that." Um, so how quickly can you get to the Yeah, I want to be part of that part of your pitch.
Well, there's a story in there. I'll just go into that for a moment which is actually kind of positive here because I've been reading things like press play the book from uh Bastian Bergman who was also on the podcast recently you know and it's like we are wired to play so accepting that as the premise then it could be that all these studios maybe the smaller ones the developers you know their future is in thinking of ways to harness gaming mechanics not necessarily

only focus on the game. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that since we could be at the beginning of something big and something positive for a change.
Yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of the social sorry, I'm a big proponent of the social and cultural impact of games. I think there are one of the examples is I do believe multiplayer is one of the principal cures for loneliness in a world where you're making connections through social media. They're very shallow. They're not real. They don't feel like real friends. A person that you play an online game with is a friend. You have a shared experience. And in a world where loneliness is is a terrible problem for the NHS, I think using games as a way to treat that problem for the NHS is something we we want more of. What I want is some research to show that, you

know, my gut reaction that that's right actually yields results. Um, do I ever see the day where the NHS will prescribe
playing Call of Duty? Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but [snorts] there are things, you know, overcooked and there's just really I I played 120 hours of a campaign with my son on Boulders Gate Boulders Gate 3 and it was fantastic. You know, we had a real shared experience together that we will never forget. Um yeah, surely that helps people who are lonely.
Yeah, I agree. I I mean uh we're going way off topic now, but anecdotally I I've met like friends of mine like just just through online which sounds kind of I think some people that sounds kind of crazy [laughter] but actually it's actually like you say it's kind of a good
you can you can have a lot of good social interactions online not just the headline
I do I play games every week with a friend of mine and we just you know

we're playing games we're doing different games or we're just chatting as well we're living life. We're talking about what's going on in each other's lives in a way that
let's be honest, men don't often do. Um, I know that's a a kind of a bit of a stereotype, but it was certainly true for me. And yet, once a week, I sit down, play whatever game we decide to pull out of the pile, and, you know, we share things. Um, so, sorry, yes, I have gone completely off topic. Um, but I do think that's that's what we need to talk more about. I think as as a games industry um and this kind of leverages into the government work as a games industry we talk about look how much money games make what we don't talk about is the positive changes to people's lives. Um
and I think we need to talk more about those positive changes. So what is like uh I mean you mentioned there's a few avenues but what is your advice for for people that don't have much experience or they're underrepresented in the industry but

they're trying to start a new business and they're looking for investment. What is the advice?
Um I'd definitely look at the accelerator schemes. There are a few. Um sign up to them, get the support, get the help, get the connections. Um
okay,
build your networks. This is a hard thing if you're a more introverted founder. Um although I do it's not a linear scale between extroversion and introversion. You have to find a way to talk to people, build relationships with people. But it can be in your own style. You don't have to be a I can stand up in front of 500 people and and build it that way. But if it is I can go around an industry party and talk to people. Um I'm just deciding whether to tell this story. I'm going to go with it. You can always edit it out. So, one of the I once pitched to somebody at the Orionals at GDC. Um, which for those that don't know that

is definitely not okay. And it was somebody that knew me and I pitched a concept to him at the but that was because I had there was, you know, 20 seconds where he was there and couldn't escape. Um, so, [laughter] okay, that's that's story does not make me look good, does it? Maybe I shouldn't have told that story. Um, you have to find what works for you, but you have to be able to get out there and talk to people. If you genuinely are a founder that is so that that is unable to talk to people and connect in that way, you've got to match with somebody that can do it for you. Um, you have to build those networks, work those networks, find those opportunities, join whatever communities you can join. Join the games industry Slack, sign up to Colin McDonald's email, which tells about a kind of great funding opportunities. You need to do all those things. You need to turn up to Pocket Gamer and and attend all the streams that tell you how to how to build a company and and learn from the

people that have been there and done it before. Not because they did it right, but at least learn from the things that they did wrong.
Yeah, we had actually pocket game Barcelona, we had a lit literal elevator pitch.
There's a bunch of us in there and then someone had started was doing a new game
in the elevator. They did
and by the time it got to the bottom, they finished their pitch. It was very impressive. Um, and I remember it as well. Like they took their opportunity and I remember it. See, I think that's one of the
That's kind of an example.
I think it's one of the advantages the Americans have over the Europeans because their buildings are much higher. So, you have much longer for your elevator pitch.
I love how real this con this conversation is, but I do want to look back to the ecosystem for a point because we are talking about what's possible and some of the comparisons. So, you know, it is about getting involved in groups. Um, and you're involved in those groups. you're telling us about BAFTA, now the UK video games

council. So, you're shaping broader ecosystems through these groups. How does the UK compare to other markets right now? And and and and what needs to uh to maybe be different because you have, as I mentioned before, on LinkedIn, I supported it and shared it. I thought it was amazing, you know, the call to say, you know, games growth relief, we need it. Um, I think the UK is very good at creativity. You know, you look across the creative industries. It's not just games. We have lots of people that can come up with fantastic ideas. And the ecosystem is there are some opportunities for early stage companies to set up. There's funding. There's uh there there's ways that you can get going. As an industry, we're not great at scaling. So we have lots of good startups and it's difficult to build beyond that. Um so that's why we've been

working on this uh gains growth tax credit which is to benefit particularly those companies that are scaling and building and give them an opportunity and from a UK point of view to keep that value in the UK.
You know the moment you sell out to a publisher or a VC that publisher or VC is not in the UK then the value has gone abroad. We're about to see the largest media launch ever,
which is GTA.
And it was created in the UK, but how the value that is held in the UK now compared to what it was is so much less. So from a national point of view, we need to find a way to keep more of that value in the UK and allow it to build and grow and become the next GTA. Wouldn't it be fantastic if the next GTA is also a UK property, but it's actually all land owned in the UK? And that's not I'm not nothing negative against Take Two. Um just from a government point of view, how can we keep that money here? And so one of the reasons why we set up the video games council was to try and

advise government in a more direct way. It's not a representative body of the industry. It's not trying to replace Tiger or Yuki, but it's trying to talk directly to government from people that have been there and done it. Um, and so, you know, it's not lobbying, it's not it's not policy people, but it is people that have that are running companies, are dealing with those problems every day and talking to ministers and kind of saying, "Here is what we need to do." And the first thing that we picked was the games growth tax credit because I think that will make a significant difference if we can get it through. Um, we are still in discussion. Yeah, it's we the the proposal was submitted to the Treasury. It's going through uh government review. I don't know if it will get it or not. Um one of the interesting things when we're talking to government, other industries are much better at working with them than we are. Other industries will

promote tax credits for their industry. We know about the independent film tax credit. uh maybe a similar one in TV but they get to send in Benedict Cumberbatch you know and Benedict Cumberbatch will go and shake hands and we don't have that kind of celebrity but also we don't we don't engage with them in that way so to show government what we could do [clears throat] we did that two days
so we just put out a call to sign a letter for two days to show that we are an industry that can mobilize and support each other and I think it it worked you know we had more than 200 people sign up in two 200 companies sign up in two days and a lot of those companies did not stand to benefit from what we were doing. Um the grow the games growth tax credit will not benefit people like Media Molecule that signed up to it. They signed up to it because it was the right thing to do. And I don't think many industries do that. And I think we've got to enjoy and work with the fact that we are I think we're nice people. I know. Okay,

that sounds weird. I do think we're nice people. I I went to tech. I didn't like tech. I came back to games because we help each other and support each other. And I think we need to do more of that. But we also need to make it institutional and make it clear to governments that we can do that. And that's that's going to be our method of showing support rather than sending in Benedict Cumberbatch. I love Benedict Cumberbatch. He's an amazing actor. I
was going to say we could send you in, Nick.
[laughter]
U I guess the the question that I've heard for a while now. I think um it is Ian Livingstone who kind of brings it up probably the most I've personally heard which is uh UK companies often sell to
foreign companies companies abroad. So, but like does you can help local companies scale, but isn't ultimately if I was to purely think of this as a business thing. An exit is kind of a success, right? So, and maybe there's

just not that many options to do that within the UK regardless of of what you kind of do with video games council. So like how do you actually keep all keep that intellectual property I guess ultimately and companies owned in the UK like isn't it just a globalization thing that you can't really stop if that makes sense. Um I mean there there are there are strong publishers in the UK. There are strong listed publishers in the UK. Yes, we have gone through a phase of then selling them off. Um which isn't ideal from a UK point of view. From a personal company point of view, entirely understand it. From a UK point of view, Kodi selling out to EA was not was not great in terms of value creation. Um but if we're looking realistically, there's a lot of private equity companies in the UK. That's value then that might stay in the UK. What we can do is we can list in London. You've got a good company that's doing quite

well. It can list in London. It can go public in London. We've seen it before. We've seen a bunch of investors make money from companies like Sumo and Cody's who have gone public. They got good returns and they're sitting there with that money waiting for the next thing to put it into. What we need to do is as a nation present the next things for those investors to put into. One of the things that I'm I'm really concerned about at the moment is if you look at um UK pension funds. So UK pension funds have a lot of investment power. We are as a nation the inward investment of UK pension funds is really low. So the the percentage that is invested in UK companies is really really small compared to other compan other countries. If you look at Sweden, their Swedish games industry was in part built from the investment from Swedish pension funds. Um, so what what's what's the next thing to talk about? Maybe there's a way of linking the tax credits that UK

pension funds get from the UK government to actually driving more of that investment back into the UK. And all of a sudden, we've got a an amount of capital that is then available to build those next companies, those next IPs, those next value creations, those next businesses. And and it can stay in the UK. Um, and and the UK can get the rewards from those. It can get the upside. It can get the opportunities. And it can get the jobs. Let's not forget this is fundamentally about jobs. Um, sorry, you're now I'm I'm just going through my campaigns one by one. Um, I'll I'll talk about business education next. That's my next one.
I I I'll be honest. I was literally gonna my I was trying to form the next question in my head, which which was um I think the video games council would deal with this potentially as well, but correct me if I'm wrong, and it's something that Gina Jackson uh has been bringing up a lot, which is kind of the skills gap. Tiger's obviously talked

about it as well. Uh, and I was having explain to me, I'm probably names around now, but Oscar Clark, I think, was explaining to me similar to what you're saying about film, how they just engage better with government. And so there's actually programs for addressing skills gap issues, which means people that are already working, but they want to get to the next level. There's actually training for them, whereas the games industry just kind of lacks this completely. Is that something that would be on the video games council's sort of agenda in like in that capacity.
Absolutely. Um yes, it's it's a key thing is how to produce more rounded companies. Um I'm going to make a gross stereotype and and I know this is this is a stereotype but I got this from an American um and as American VC um you know the question was why do American companies have a higher valuation and their response was well from the start they think about the

business. So whenever you're talking to a founders there's there's just this idea of making money is fundamental to who they are. Um whereas a European or a British company will come out with I want to make the most amazing thing and it might be a great pitch about the most amazing thing but it doesn't have that underlying this is a solid business that will last for 20 years.
Um and I think we can fix that.
I think that you know those are skills that can be learned. We we can teach how to build better business plans. We can teach how to pitch better. we can we can bring some of those skills back into those companies and help them manage those companies better other than we just want to make a really great thing. And I love people to want to make a really great thing, but I want to make a really great thing that actually will drive a business for 10 years. Um because as soon as they finish that really great thing, you want them to be able to go on to the next really great thing because the first really great thing you learn a lot from. The second

really great thing, maybe you get to take advantage of those lessons. Maybe it's the third one. Maybe it's Roio was product 39. You know, they were an overnight success on game 39.
Um, and we need we need to build companies that can keep going in that way and keep surviving but keep getting the chance to go again.
Um, and and there are skills and I love what Gina is doing.
Interject there though. I mean, it's it's because being American in in the room here, I'm not always excited about our focus in America on the business because that can stifle the next big thing because we also tend to be a bit safe, you know. I mean, I just look at the Hollywood sequel sequel sequel sequel to a sequel and by number four or five, you know, it is dead in the water, but it was a safe bet. So, maybe somewhere in the middle.
Yeah. But I I don't think we're going to lose that. there is a fundamental

Britishness which is I want to make something new. I want to make something creative. I want to come up with a new idea. So I don't think you're ever going to take away that that kind of cultural sensibility of I want to make an amazing thing.
But yeah, I don't want to go to the stage where we're only ever working on,
you know, game 17.
Um I spent a long time at EA. It's a great business model. [snorts]
[laughter]
This is like how do you really uh get there? Like you say like there's some things we could do but what is what is it we can do? Like what is it you can I guess speak with government about that could be implemented to uh improve like that business education so that founders know precisely I guess how to pitch their business and exactly kind of things they should be aiming for.
I I mean there there's a lot of different things you already highlighted Gina's work. Gina's Gina's done some amazing work to try and kind of improve and highlight the skills. There are people out there doing amazing things

and we can give them some help. We don't have to create this all from scratch. Um, you know, UK Games Fund is a fantastic entity and they they do amazing things and there are things that we can do to tweak how they get their money that can give a greater number of uh companies an opportunity to do better. Um, so it is it's taking a lot of the things out there and maybe making them a bit better. And if we each day make something a little bit better, then you know in a few years time we look back and we've made things a lot better.
I just one more question about the video games council which is do you how have you found it I guess generally so far? I'm sure you going to say it was all been delightful I guess but like I guess the industry has long had sort of challenges dealing with government compared to other industries as we've said. So, how do you feel about it at the moment? And do you feel like this kind of structure that's now being built with kind of Yuki and Tigers, the trade bodies uh is going to help for future

parliaments and governments as well? I mean, I hope so. We we have uh Labor governments at the moment that are actually really supportive of video games. They uh you know, video games was was highlighted as one of the growth areas in the creative sector plan. Um, we've never had that before as an industry. We we've always struggled with even explaining what games is. But now you've got MPs that are actively trying to engage with us. You've got local mayers who are putting money aside in their budget to fund accelerators and to to improve learning. I think we're at a great point of time with this government and we we should take advantage of that. Um, and so we're that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to build relationships and structures and understandings which hopefully we can help them deliver the growth narrative that they need to deliver.

It may also be coming all together at some level, Nick, because I touched upon this earlier, but you know, it's uh it's bigger than games, right? It's games with film, with fashion, education. I mean, it's mind-blowing how it is impacting um all levels of society. So, you know, that's changing. Um, and so maybe also governments and investors are starting to value what games are becoming is my question to you. And what are they becoming? You know, is this something where we're seeing a new creative tech entertainment industry perhaps?
I I I do agree and I think there are lots of interesting interactions between different industries. A lot of the interesting spaces are in between those and how you take advantage of, you know, how you take games into medtech, how you uh I've already mentioned games within education, how you're taking IP creation

and bringing that into games, how you're looking at interesting collaborations between film, TV, and games, how you're presenting a central experience which can be all over the world. I mean, I I love social media games. This what what's the opportunity within social media to create different kinds of experiences. They're not the same experiences. They're not what we did 10 years ago, but they are different evolving experiences that will change over time. I know I'm not going to come up with them, but I maybe help the company that is going to come up with. So maybe there's also some education there for the investors as well, helping them understand what impact or what profitable growth is in a time where it's not just about the games they were investing in before. You know, it's going to be bigger. So maybe they need to have vision as well. Not everyone's like you, Nick.
Well, so I did some roundts with some

investors that haven't invested in games and partially I wanted to understand why they hadn't invested in games. I thought I knew the answer. I thought the answer was they didn't understand the risk of games. You know, it was just a lack of education. If I could tell them about games, then they will invest in games. And that wasn't the answer.
That wasn't what came back. What came back
was games companies are not as professional. So, um
Oh, so they're looking they're looking at uh life sciences. They invest in life sciences. They don't understand life sciences in the way that they don't understand games. But what happens is the life sciences come with here is a whole bunch of here is a business plan. Here is a 10-year plan. Here is a set of contingencies. Here is a sea level that's all planned out. Here is a fullyfledged functioning organization. And too often games companies come out with look we're making a shiny thing.

Um, so
true, [laughter] true. Okay.
So, it's not it it's it is about educating, but it's not about educating them to understand games. They don't understand most of the other things they invest in. I'll probably get in trouble for saying that, but it's about presenting in a way where we look comparable to other industries. And that's how we get money from private equity, from investment funds, by playing the game a little.
Yeah. It makes me feel slightly dirty, but we need to do it.
No, but it it makes total sense because you know what you know and these investors, they understand what they see. You know, they want the PowerPoint. They want the trappings of what seems to be order in chaos. You know, Seale knows what they're doing. Um, looks very Yeah, just looks very confident. Maybe that's something else that we have to absolutely
it is that confidence.

Yes. And it's the storytelling part of it and it's but it's the not just the great creative product. It's how is it a long-term business that will will build reward for those investors or those pension funds or those angels or even the grant authorities. How can we make sure that they're getting the reward from what they're doing that they want to receive? So uh I guess uh for the final question uh we'd like to do some I guess some fun uh questions at the end but uh I guess firstly what big question but what's your favorite game of all time?
Oh now that's too big a question favorite games for favorite moments. Um I
Super Monkey Ball because it's got monkeys involved. I mean how is that not a winner? Um, I love Space Channel 5. Space Channel 5 is is it's it's kind of one of my guilty pleasures, but then, you know, I played 120 hours of Boulders

Gate 3 with my son, and I love that. Um, Lego Marvel, I mean, I took all my both my kids through the Lego games, Lego Harry Potter, Lego Star Wars, you know, that style of shared experience with them.
Um,
yeah. and and then every now and again somebody reminds me of a game that I've worked on and it's like, "Oh, that was a shame that didn't quite be as successful as I would have liked it to be." I love Time Spencers 2. Time Spencers 2 is a great game.
Oh, classic. Do you have any at the moment? Do you have any go-to games?
I I I'm quite enjoying Peak at the moment. Uh and and slightly weirdly, my daughter came back. We started playing Fortnite. Um so doing trios in Fortnite.
Back on Fortnite. Now, clearly I I don't have the the Twitch receptors anymore, so I'm a support role while the my two kids go off and do the actual fighting. Um, but it's still kind of fun. Um, so yeah, what what I the games that I love

are co-op games, games where I'm working together with somebody. Games where I'm having that shared experience.
Oh, that's real nice. So shared experiences and quirky games. [laughter]
I mean, Super Monkey Ball, it's got monkeys in bulls. How is that not awesome? It's just like what what what else you need really? [laughter]
Fix all the right boxes. Fix all the right boxes. Well, speaking about experience, Nick, this has been and I'll be American. An awesome experience talking with you. Really and truly. Um Craig, got to thank you again. you bring them in on our show and you can pick them and I think that this is going to have people really talking and if they haven't been sort of like taking notes and thinking about it, there's so much valuable advice here. I can only thank you for sharing, Nick.
Well, look, thank you so much for the time. It's lovely to chat.
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