Mega Studio’s Adam Jaffe On The Impressive Benefits Of Incentivised Traffic

[Music] hello world welcome to the pg. biz podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and the effervescent and futuristic Miss Peggy anels hello Peggy how are you I'm doing well Brian and thanks so much for the intro because that's what it's about it's about the future I mean here we are we are in q1 it's an amazing year this is going to be a great series it's going to give people a road map for all of that which is what we do we look at the topics that you need we're looking at Mega Trends in the year and it just dawned on me we have a guest who is Mega because he is the founder of Mega studio right so there is a tie there it's not just me stretching it nicely done nicely done and that is the name I didn't make it up and our guest Adam jaffy Adam it is great to have you because you are

that right we're talking about Mega you have had nearly 30 experiences in growth in marketing when I'm reading LinkedIn and from platica to social point it just runs like a thread throughout what you're doing that you are deeply deeply into gamification I think we're lucky to have you today so great to have you Adam thanks guys thanks Brian thanks bigs absolutely fantastic to be here looking forward to this talk so I'm I'm thrilled that you're here and would love to hear H more about you about Mega and what you're doing so so let's start with you you're in Barcelona um so what took you to Barcelona and tell us a little bit more about Mega yeah so I I mean I started my career in gaming about 16 17 years ago in the real money Casino space in Israel and then I caught a lucky Break by joining pla very early it was the number 10 employee and built and ran the marketing department by myself for the first year of the company um which was insane we were on tons of platforms

just grew that business and then uh in 2014 I was offered the opportunity um to move to Barcelona to become the VP of marketing at Social point and that's what it originally brought me out here and beautiful city for those of you who've been here I think that was basically their intention at the beginning they were like Hey listen come to Barcelona and I'm thinking there's no way we're going to move my wife is pregnant I've got a small child like the jokes on these guys and here I am and as far as Mega Studio goes um about 3 years ago I founded the studio basically we set up as a pseudo gaming agency um with the orientation to basically provide gaming services from coming up with ideas for for games all the way through to L operations and and throughout that thread one of the kind of core tenants is is this idea of of gamification right do more with what you have so you know a lot of businesses rely heavily on of course marketing spend to acquire users and that's expensive and it's not getting any cheaper and so gamification is a way of helping to align essentially

what you're doing to how you can be more profitable by creating more engaging you know environments and I think that actually ties in well with the themes that we're going to be talking about today specifically around incentivized traffic and how you can help guide users motivations to take certain actions and and El list certain responses so you know what what led you down the gamification route so I was working with Jam City at the time um I'd had my own startup and we were not doing super well and so I needed to make a bit of cash from the side and so I ended up joining J city as a consultant helping them on the marketing side with a whole kind of marketing creative strategy and I was given the opportunity um because of my marketing background they wanted to bring back some of their old sort of Legacy titles and they sent me down to Argentina to help kind of oversee a couple of games that were based there which was their sort of Legacy studio and it was the first time that I was given sub a substantial budget for marketing but then I was also put in charge of the product road map and it was a very different experience in the sense that I wasn't Bound by by your

traditional like this is my marketing guy and I have to like talk to the product team and figure out what they're doing like no I I had everything what I was basically looking at is okay we need marketing dollars we know how much would how much cost for us to acquire a user we know kind of L generalized kpis and now we look at the product to basically try to optimize that payback period and it was through that process of building out specific features that would then allocate to to monetization or retention that we really started to dig into this idea of how does a feature really Define a group of motivational characteristics and from this I went on to to become the COO of another live op Studio that was based in Romania and then that's kind of what what led me to this and since then I've kind of brought that concept to a lot of different companies helping them take existing games and truly really trying to sit down and say you have this type of motivation but you don't have a feature to support it you know you seems like you have a very competitive product but you don't have any leaderboards to basically Propel players or push players

in a more visually competitive nature or you have um a game like like a match three for example but you don't have any like skill training style um components like for example the star system where you can say oh yeah you did very well on this level which may not sound like a like a core feature but users who really like Perfection and corre and getting that like three star system they'll spend money for for that you know to save that progress in AKA like the out of mov purchase so so it was about kind of diving into this world of understanding that a certain feature really ties into a certain motivation and and this is the gamification loop right how you figure out what what motivates a player and have enough of those touch points to to push your product forward but I want to just go back for a moment to the whole idea here of incent rewarded gamification you know it's clearly an opportunity for game devs and we'll be talking about that but to grasp it you have to also get past and you hinted at it Brian you know

there's that little stigma about this type of traffic so clue Us in here Adam what's the biggest misconception about this yeah I think the biggest misconception is that it's all fraud and that you know you're basically paying for for boosting your your position in the app store which is essentially how it all started right I mean if you think of these companies Back in the Day 2010 12 13 14 whatever you know where you say hey we'll get you to the top of the App Store with X number of downloads you basically just paid for that um I think that's how people initially approached it and then they took it to the next level which was Hey listen you know pay for the install but then we'll also pay for an event like reach level 15 and you'll get an even bigger payout which again places all the onus and an emphasis on on the developer we we we burden we sorry we take on full Full ownership and we take on the full burden of responsibility in terms of payback and again a lot of fraud was taking place there because the the publisher had really zero risk as long as they're sending traffic there was nothing to sort of keep them keep them honest in

that context but that whole system has really shifted dramatically in the last couple of years and you have a lot of companies now which are taking the rewarded and the incentive away from The Advertiser and they're placing it back on their shoulders you know for example you might have a company that has you know yes you'll pay me on a CPI so you pay me the advertising company on a CPI but the user knows that if they reach a certain level they're going to get a reward from me from the publisher so I'll give them a $5 gift card or I'll give them a voucher or I'll give them something so the incentive the onus of the incentive shifts slightly away from The Advertiser the game developer and onto the shoulders of the publisher you know the the media company this transition of burden of responsibility has really led to a kind of Renaissance in this traffic Source because now you've got two parties who are really concentrated on the quality I mean I know now companies that that run incent Network NS that do proper kyc like a

bank you know because they're so concerned about having quality inventory and that just never that was like completely unheard of and in fact it's actually probably even more relevant in terms of of quality than your your typical non- incense stuff because the incentive is can in certain cases negatively affect the business if you get a lot of people doing you know fraudulent activity it can affect the advertiser relationship but also on the publisher side so both parties are now much more Vigilant and and it's created a pretty interesting ecosystem where companies in the past may have not thought about incentives like a proper you know UA Channel now you're seeing companies spending hundreds of millions of dollars and it's a completely viable channel for both roaz which is of course the key metric that most companies are looking for but also for bringing quality users I mean roaz is typically a lag indicator on that but you know you see companies now really building an entire business model around incentivized traffic that is to say you also need to understand the traffic itself it doesn't behave the same as

other traffic sources and so I know a lot of companies will set out with this idea like okay we're spending millions of dollars all over the place oh we haven't really touched and sent let's bring it in we've heard it's great and then it doesn't work for them and they're like okay that's it it's done and the reality is is that it often or more typically doesn't work because the game itself isn't designed for that type of traffic and there's a certain kind of vibe and and and setup that you want to put down in order to maximize the value you get that type of traffic Source I get the mechanics of reward and I've been watching it you know as long as you have but uh this shift this change now that is something important and that's something that Studios need to understand if they're going to use this as a UA channel so what do they need to understand about the traffic what's the nuts and bolts here of making this work so it varies you know between IOS and Android you know I think in the one side I'm not going to call the deprecation of of idfa but the the significant uction of that as a as a deterministic

indicator um for for tracking has caused and played havoc on the behavioral targeting side and what incentivize so you tend to have you know lower cpms on on iOS just because of the sort of blind nature of of that product not to mention in the incentivized side and this is this remains true regardless of whether you had at or not um most if not all incentivized traffic is going to come from web so it's not coming from from inapp because iOS of course doesn't allow companies like Tapjoy or fluent or anybody to have that SDK for games you can still have incent you can still earn money from incentivized offers for example for for Content like take a subscription to this like to to sirusxm or to uh Disney that's okay but for some reason the promotion of games still has a kind of weird connotation in Apple Android totally fine so you can have your own app you can build out it a whole platform based on that so when thinking about how to that these are really different sources and how to how to leverage these traffic sources you

have to understand that a person is going to enter your product not because of your product they're going they have a very clear trajectory and it's like I need to get from point A to point B and when I get to point B I receive my gift card my payout my voucher my whatever and so I need to have that that sense and so as game developers the problem has been historically that you paid for an install and then that's basically we're like okay some people might be interested in the game but the reality is is that they have a very low low retention past day two or three but with these new traffic sources and this new kind of system built in you can have basically much better looking quality traffic than you might even find in a in a non- incent type environment the problem you have with that is that those users are still going for a specific goal and that goal is not necessarily to play your game but to reach a specific point and so it's up to the game designer to understand that Hey listen I've got now a captive audience who is going to play my game game and play it a

lot in certain cases and get to this very kind of clear Mark in sand and so I want to make sure that my experience for example might have a lot more ad heavy relationship right they're not maybe going to convert as much to paying customers although they may and in certain types of games you actually do see very good conversion rate of paying customer if they know that they need to get to that if they if they equivalent the sorry if they equate the value of the purchase to lower than the value that they're going to generate they'll make a purchase and so you get a kind of more Savvy style individual which you can completely leverage and and make usage of and so it's about understanding that you put a path forward for a user and now you have a n guarantee that that person will follow that path unlike most games where it's much more I don't call it open world it's not exactly the case but you have a lot less control over how a person is going to interact with your product unless you completely rail your tutorial type you know environment in which case you're going to churn most players nobody likes that but incent doesn't like that you get that that

railed environment and that's that's a key differentiator so Adam that that's really interesting and I think one of the key things here is that what you're talking about when it comes to incentivization within a game is it's taking it out of the hands of the marketing team and involving the designers and developers and making it a far more integral part of the reward mechanism within the game is that is that what you're saying absolutely if you think about this sort of pipe now as you know sort of a destination known you know a typical marketer might choose a certain level or an event to say okay this is the level that we that we might need but then the game designer might have an entirely different perspective on that for example and what you see a lot is a sort of bifurcation of of the user Journey one is going to get this sort of the typical game environment whereas an incentivized user will get typically a lot more ads that there's because you almost guaranteed that they're going to follow that journey and it becomes a kind of Arbitrage game at that point you sort of know what your cpms are you know more or less how many impressions but there's a second characteristic here

which is something in game we call the artificial pinch point it's the moment in a premium experience when a user either has to wait or pay and if they have to wait they're going to they need to come back and if they pay they can continue on in the process and so setting up your your incentivized event to be sort of post artificial pincho is a very strong way for the user to experience a lot of of value in the game and I've seen this happen in a lot of products a good incentivized setup sees the user monetized aggressively through ads hit that that wall right and they think okay I'm not going to pay I'm not that's some what I'm here for they leave they come back but then now they're coming back for a second session and now what happens in typical game environment well your live offs kicks in so now you have your welcome bonuses and you have a tournament maybe starting and all of this new things are happening and then the person hits that event and they get their little credit but they've now amassed all of these resources and things and they have maybe 10 or 15 more minutes of gameplay available aailable to them and they go on to continue

playing and then they may even forget about the credit event and just continue on in in the gaming experience and so the historical context was focus on the marketer that's the main objective now I see incentive as needing both the marketing team and the product team to come together to really align on the clear PL path that you want that person to take so we we're talking about again another point that we hear we hear um reasonably often which is the whole concept of the metag game you know it's no longer just what's happening within each level or what's happening within each each particular campaign but it's looking at the the game in its broadest possible sense and and really kind of the focus is now on the player and segmenting your player so that the every single one of them whether they're incentivized or not are getting the kind of the maximum what they what they want out of that game to increase that LTV you know increase your R and and just really keep everyone as happy as is possible yeah yeah absolutely and and there are certain companies that that

have even more information you know there companies that do surveys before you get to that traffic Source excuse me before they send that that user on and in those types of instances you can actually generate your own sort of device graph or behavioral targeting asking questions that are more relevant so companies that have surveys I always encourage my the advertisers that I deal with like see what kind of questions are being asked like how much information do you know about the user have can you ask them a question like do you like match three games or are you interested in these types of games and if you can funnel that kind of traffic you also have the ability today to put in more than one event to pay out on so you might have multiple campaigns with multiple endpoints so maybe you have a catchall style traffic where you're like look if it's broad we can just s everybody this event it's more or less what we want but and you're talking very very much about this idea of of meta drivers and we think about this idea of gamification so we might find that a certain traffic source that you're purchasing from is has a certain type of user and you know that your game

for example is more of a competitive product and what you really want to do is you want to match that incoming user with the event that maximizes your sort of moment of of meta so if we have a leaderboard type of instance which is going to become available at level four well then maybe you should put that sort of credit event after level four so that the user will experience that part of your game because you feel that that traffic Source might drive that type of user to your product it's a little bit different kind of methodology of thinking but if you think about each type of feature you have in your product as tying into a specific metad driver or in this context a specific user motivation and users are sort of numbers of users are motivated by different things if you have a better sense of the incoming traffic then you can apply certain level types or different events that might behoove that individual more to to convert and that's a little bit what you get to do with incent you don't really get to do that with non- incent traffic because you don't have a clear sense of where that person's going to end up whereas here

you're like I'm going to draw you on this line I'm going to push you right here and I'm hoping that that is going to be the moment where you realize oh I actually really enjoyed this experience and now they have a leaderboard and I'm super into that so I'm going to keep playing and kick off into a whole new campaign or whatever it might be sounds like a whole new idea and whole new area to sort of let go and be creative and try to figure this out because you're building a pathway to profits in a sense Maybe not that they're going to convert but you're going to make money and you can architect this and you can guide this and this gets really interesting uh but it can be also really challenging what are maybe some uh I wouldn't say the coolest events but maybe the events maybe the triggers maybe those moments that you could offer to really sort of inspire these companies to think a little bit out of the box because this is a whole new skill set it's a really complex question because there isn't one sort of golden metric you know it's not

like oh reach level X and you'll be you'll be great you know every game is a little bit different but I think that's also the beautiful part about this type of traffic source is that it it requires you to really sit down and look at the product that you're either promoting or or want to buy traffic for right and and to really say okay listen I know the kind of traffic I'm going to get is X and I have no Illusions about the kind of quality I'm I'm about to receive but that doesn't mean that I can't build the right path find that moment in my game which I feel personally sort of highlights the best of of all the world all of what we have without being so far from that install position that we just don't even get anybody clicking on the offer for example and so there is a kind of fine-tuning you know if you for example if I have an insult and then I know that this is going to take me two days to get to this point and that's my credit event or my the moment where I can make a per you know I get my cash reward or whatever it might be well two days is a long time you might just have a lot of drop off there and and even

before that happens a person might read the offer language and they might think I don't really want to wait two days seems like a long time I might be much more willing to take something that I can achieve in in a couple hours you know and and so it's important that on the face of it you make your your offer competitive in terms of the language so you're choosing an event which feels close so rather than say something like reach level 600 you'll say you know get to world two and those may be the same thing but in the mind of the user that has a different connotation and the second thing is pairing the event with in a sort of an effective time range and so and and making sure that that user has a sense that they can achieve it but that there is these this sort of stop Gap that's introduced AKA your artificial pinch point that we talked about have to ask a followup since you've worked with so many companies and I'm talking about surprises like what has blown your mind I think what was interesting to me was just how willing most most incentive users are to engage with whatever

mechanic you've presented to them it's been my experience in the past that incentive traffic is is a is a very high high top of funnel style experience in which most players if not all players will turn immediately upon you know installing the product and so you get this very kind of trickle down effect and it's not a very profitable mechanism but when you start to see these companies pulling their those users deeper and deeper into your funnels I'm always shocked at just how willing they are to watch 40 ads you know or even make purchases or go to the 30th or 50th level in one session and so you start to see these retention rates day five day six day seven of 20 30 40% higher than even your non- incense stuff and you're like wow this is actually an incredibly lucrative traffic source and that you can then you know sort of manipulate that process more effectively and I think that's that's what's always that always strikes me as like oh wow you know like I wouldn't be willing to do that but then all of a

sudden I get this incentive and I'm like yeah I will do all of it plus whatever else you throw at me well you're saying is that you know this is actually simplifying things for developers because when you know your user you know the incentive that your user has for coming into your game you can deploy all of your strategy all your tactics within the game to not only get them there but keep them thereafter yeah and it becomes a little bit of wack-o to a degree right like you're trying to figure F out right what's the right strategy and what's the right mechanism in order to engage because with incentivized traffic you know you're you're trying to basically use your game applied elements to mask the traffic that you brought in so you're like I came in for this I I've always talk about you know I came for this but I stayed for that and that's typical for basically all games right I came because I saw this amazing banner and I thought wow and then I stayed because there's a cool chat room and I'm like really engaged in this or a collectible system or whatever that meta thing is that's why I'm actually playing the game and and spending money and incentivize traffic is a little bit the

same right you recognize that a person is not coming in for your game they're coming in to for some other purpose to receive coins or reward or whatever in some other product and so it's up to you as the game designer and along with the marketing team to be like okay what foot do we put forward what gamified element do we place in front of this user in order to remove that you know oh I got to just turn and balance back to the game I was playing and and keep them engaged in the prodct that that I have them with sure that I have them in now and so yeah it's it's it is a very interesting opportunity because you can test a lot of different things you can go and say listen maybe it's better to put them in front of the leaderboard first or maybe we can you know send them down the collectible route or maybe we'll put them in the tournament and you can start to gauge what feature has a higher sticking point as an initial starting point for a user and so there is a way that you can use incentivize traffic to basically pinpoint and push us directly to a feature and say Let's See How They engag let's put that credit event just after this feature and see did we see an uptic roll as okay let's AB test let's go to that other feature

and see how that performed over the first one and then this can give you a sense of whether those features are should be ordered differently or or changed up and I and I don't think anybody really uses incentivized traffic in this way or at least they are starting to become more aware of the possibilities that this traffic provides I just want to get an understanding of the Arsenal so to speak of capabilities for game devs because leaderboard got that you know Stars accomplishments got that but this is evolving this is getting really really interesting so I guess the ways of motivating people are expanding yeah absolutely I mean you can think about your traditional feature set right I mean you have this thing called player archetypes and it's a very helpful sort of graphic as as you'll see to help you understand whether your user base falls into one of these categories because once you understand that meta driver you can start to build features which would support that and of course

in in casual or I would say free-to-play games our goal is to have as many of those motivational triggers as we can because we never know the exact user type right you know uh are you a competitive individual are you a social engineer are you looking for you know collection s like you don't know what's going to move that individual and to make that purchase and so you might as well have as many of those as as possible the problem is is that you want to make sure that they they balance each other out you know so now you don't have one op system that just you know kind of breaks everything where does that fall into the kind of umbrella with with incentivized traffic as as we've been talking about I think where we find ourselves today is that unlike in the past you actually have a way of putting a user directly into the path of whatever feature you want and depending on how you've seen and you can do breadcrumb analysis you know you can look at you know I just this feature what was the you know kind of what was the the chain or the link that got that individual there and you can kind of

help guide that incent user through that journey and introducing all kind of different monetization points but you can really see okay if I got a user to this point knowing full well they have no intention of playing my game Beyond this point is this feature strong enough to convert that user into a into a long-term player and then you get to start to see the impact of certain features as they relate to that maybe that fatou or that onboarding experience or whatever it might be in incentivized traffic you don't really get that why because you're already you're not motivated beforehand I don't know why you came to my game maybe you clicked on my banner maybe you like the art maybe there there's a hundred reasons why you might have actually clicked and installed my game right and so I don't really I cannot presuppose your motivation but with incentivize traffic I know exactly why you came you came because you're going to get something else in somebody else's game and so it's my job as a game designer to actually entice you to stay you know to like you know sort of delight you at something that you found and be like wow I didn't even realize this thing was here and

it's because of that that gives us a little bit more control over the type of traffic that we're buying all things Beal course what is the future of incentivized traffic where do you see this going um you know mplay believes it's going to be about real life rewards IE cash is what's what's your view yeah I mean people want people want to earn money and you know this industry has been built on the back of users since its Inception right I mean think about I'm buying eyeballs I'm generating you know you think of the an entire hyper casual business was built on the back of ads and and there's a lot of businesses who it's just you know you know passing the buck on to the next guy you know like I have an ad that you know it's Arbitrage at the end of the day and I think users never really understand their value right if I have a guy who spent $1,000 in my game he's worth a lot of money in ad views or whatever and so there's an incentive for me to want to try and make make money from him but then from the users perspective they never really understand that they actually get no advant you know advantageous position for having that

kind of high ecpm they don't even know that and so I see the future as being a little bit more democratized in the sharing of Revenue like if I'm earning all this money from you maybe you can earn some money too by taking you know taking these actions and because the app stores are becoming so congested and things like features no longer kind of carry the same way people are looking for cheaper alternatives that they can be that can be more consistent and so as we move into 2024 and as idfa becomes less relevant as Google ID becomes now is a little bit in Peril you know most of these companies when it comes to this type of of traffic will start to look at that and say okay I've got a different like a user's willing to do a lot more for example a user is willing to accept a cookie right if I tell you in order to get your cash out you need to have tracking enabled they will enable tracking on the on the product they go to the way in which which a person is going to view incentivized traffic is no longer going to be just a source of

traffic that I need to kind of trick into playing my game it's going to be no actually I'm going to be able to know a lot more about these users I'm going to be able to track their behavior much more effectively and I'm going to be able to see how certain features and certain ad units and certain monetization tactics either improve or not my my business and my LTV at the end of the day and I can Benchmark that against incentivized traffic non-incentivized traffic you know organic traffic whatever it might be it's another signal it's not even just another source of Revenue which it is but way I'm hearing you talk about it the signal is really important here too yeah it's it's one of the few moments where a game developer can really speak to an individual prior to them entering their product and then have a generalized sense of okay I have these people coming and actually know exactly why they're here it's it's this we work in a very strange industry in which basically nobody ever meets their

customer physically or even virtually and and so you never really understand why like why are you here what are you doing yeah there's some companies that have internal survey teams and you know looking for Consumer insights and yada but again always biased and always a little bit you know kind of a percentage of whatever versus like a store you walk into a store you're like how can I help you I'm looking for this like okay it's over there okay now you go over to this direction and then you're like huh a lot of people are coming in for that one thing hm maybe if I put it in the front of the store I get even more people coming in oh no now they're just looking at it at the window actually was that they were looking at that thing and they were getting all the way to the back of my store and they were passing all these other things that were really exciting and then that's what what actually got them so I should put like I mean we always talk about this in the US right like why do they put the milk in the back of the store everybody needs milk and actually turns out not to be because of this because they needed to be cold and they can't transfer to the front but it has this unintended consequence which is that if you got to get milk you're going to walk all all the way to the back of the store and you're going to walk by all these different products and

that's a big draw and I think incentivized traffic can be seen similarly understanding this is also getting away from that other stigma which was if I have ads in my game if I have too many of this or that I'm doing something to the experience this is like adapting the experience to the user so no one's really going to be that ticked off that they're seeing this because their behavior says you know you're a completionist or you want to accomplish this in the game so here here's your chance back when we were all children and we were watching TV and there were advertisements on TV you watched them because you didn't have an alternative or you enjoyed the program you didn't change the channel necessarily because you were enjoying the program you wanted to how many times that you like run to the bathroom you know in between commercial breaks so that you could get back to whatever you know you know you stayed because you you enjoyed the content and and so ad breaks were placed in important moments and people understood that look I'm going to put this here because it's a cliff fer and now you're going to you're going to come back when when we come back you'll be

back and I think game developers kind of lost a little bit of that thinking process right like when should I show an ad how do I integrate this into my process and and they became some went One Direction which is like we'll just throw as many ads as possible and then it doesn't matter then again you your retention suffers but if you have a good product and you do it effectively it doesn't matter player people want to play your game and they'll watch the ads in order to play so I think that stigma is is dying out but on the other hand games aren't as Innovative as it used to be if I'm completely honest um but that's for another topic of conversation there's a whole show in that that's a different show entirely we could keep going I think for the rest of the afternoon if if we really tried because this is a topic that I think both Peggy and I are finding deeply deeply fascinating however we're going to have to call a halt to it for the time being um before we say goodbye as we do have a couple of questions we ask all of our guests the first is um what

game are you playing right now what's obsessing you you know what are you spending a lot of time on when maybe you should be going out and networking and having a coffee with people and then the second one what's your favorite game of all time okay well the game that I'm playing at the moment is not a new game it's fact it's a it's an extension from Call of Duty from 2013 uh which is like it's just a local play I play with the guys in my office it's like uh you know kill the aliens and get to the sort of get to the end and we haven't managed to get to the end yet so it's I'm doing it more because I'm you know just want to connect with the guys in my office and have a little break from the kind of Mayhem of the day and then my favorite game of all time man that is that's a tricky one I mean I think probably the one I mean you see the poster behind me Super Mario brother is fre just in terms of like nostalgic kind of like where it hits in the Heart Like I hear that music that that game had everything for me um so I probably G to have to say that Super Mario Brothers 3 this has been I have to say a great

great show Adam it has given us insights into not just different ways to design a game but also monetize a game that's where all the focus is right now because that is where the challenge is so insights like this they are helpful and I side with Brian we will definitely have you back because our audience appreciates that I think that's why they come here and they'll get more of you as well so thanks for taking the time absolute pleasure this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach

out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion HST for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian Bago I'm Peggy an saltz and that's a wrap until next [Music] week