LIVE | Roundtable News: Blizzard & Meta going down in flames

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what's up everybody welcome to another episode of game dev unchained the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof i am your host brandon fam and you smell it correctly it is ray graham with another roundtable news episode what's up ray how you doing what's happening brandon i'm doing all right i'm here it's been a while man uh a lot of things have happened uh you know every time we talk there's always there seems to be always a new variant and we seem to dodge it just fine uh actually my oldest kid just had is going through covet right now he had it last thursday yeah at this point at this point if any kids go to school they're probably they're probably gonna get it yeah

yeah it's kicking it pretty well you know i mean it seems uh i think he got it from my youngest they seem to have the same similar symptoms a 24-hour fever uh the young one kicks it like goes through his system pretty fast he only goes through the fever thing and the older one has a little bit of tiredness some some uh air-headedness what they call that brain fog brain [ __ ] yeah yeah but he you know takes about a day or two so it is one of those things that seems to be like it goes through every group of friends that we have uh as a right yeah you seem to have dodged it completely right you haven't even had once yeah all i can say is i haven't had any symptoms and i've never tested positive right but yeah um i've been keeping a relatively low profile i've done some traveling and gone to some places right but um but it definitely kept it pretty pretty

low haven't been out in like large crowds um so yeah it's it's i've been i've been lucky so far that way you're actually becoming that small percentage that i know that hasn't had like i went through it once uh i guess sort of twice maybe i don't know sometimes i get an itchy throat i was like i think i have it but i don't really all right yeah like i tell everybody like in in february 2020 i had a real bad fever before like everything locked down i had a bad fever for like two days right but it could have just been the flu it could have just been a fever pruning like you know but it it kind of suspiciously happened around the same time that kovid was running rampant right yeah same with us we february i had our whole family kind of had like this bad fever that kind of went through everybody but having gone through it uh once covet is a little bit different

yeah like it was that's what people say if you if you had it you would know and and so like i think i just had a fever at that point yeah you do go through a check it's it's different from a few because you know none of the symptoms really blend so much for me that it was like 24 hours of fever 24 hours tiredness it was just going down the check boxes yeah but anyways um i'm sick of talking about kuvid i'm kind of in the attitude i was like who cares at this point it's like come come at me bro right so i think that's generally kind of everybody just kind of noticing how the crowds are infinitely large everywhere we go now and anyone that says it it's not kind of like close the door quarantine hide forever attitude it's like oh yeah of course right it's uh you know for people who just lived their life and traveled and vacation as normal during those two years you know uh

they feel just fine you know hearing all these things but for the people who kind of hid in their houses like i did yeah i'm kind of a little upset man i'm like this is it well you have to you have to understand that's all we have no you have to understand that before the vaccines it was really bad yeah and then there's been some variants that have made it not as deadly as owens was right or you don't get as sick right so with vaccines plus the variance it's it's it's you're getting normal type of sickness right um if you weren't vaccinated if you didn't have the variance right like it might be a totally different story so so i definitely i would not say oh man i should have been out doing doing shots at the club during during a pandemic right like i i think you you chances were high that you might have been more damaged than than you are now

right so so yeah so so i just think you have to take all those into account right all right well i mean roundtable news episode is usually like kind of like a debate show so i'll take the opposite stance it's like whatever logic makes you feel better ray i'm just saying it wasn't that bad at the beginning it wasn't that bad now there's there's hundreds of thousands of people that would that that disagree if they could but they are dead yeah so yeah man why do you make it so dark well then you have a segways into what this is about so without further ado let's go ahead and get going [Music] so this is the roundtable news episode uh this is when we ideally once a month sit around the campfire talk about game development news that relates to game developers such as yourself and i and the listeners out there we're taking

straight out of the headlines and somewhat can be controversial all right before we get started hey our opinions are of our own not of what companies we work for try not to get us fired or try your best whatever dude we don't care we're remote [ __ ] [Laughter] only only me okay i'll speak on on behalf of us just me but uh let's go into this man these companies that we're talking about today seem to always come back and i am if not already been repeating this over and over where uh whatever companies whatever happened during the dynamic that were flourishing right that were really benefiting from the pandemic are are the first to kind of kind of crash and burn not completely but like they are at the

first downhill you know tumble um now that things are slowly getting back in the office people are you know hanging out outside their homes going and doing fun things again like a lot of financial reports are not kind of bleeding over to the new years and stuff so without further ado let's talk about activation blizzard right so activision blizzard it's been a long time coming but because of the pandemic war zone in a lot of their other games at blizzard were really benefiting from a lot of people at home right one of the reasons why diablo immortal uh that's the that's the mobile version of diablo was even created in the first place right i mean it was a long time coming but like during the pandy it was a very convenient release and at first a lot of people were opposed to at

least the hardcore [Music] but you know uh eventually people embraced it and numbers are not as expected right we saw this with wow uh overwatch took a little longer than people wanted right they didn't really capitalize on their popularity they kind of let other other uh genres other games kind of take take its attention right valorant seems to come up a lot now a lot of other similar games um that had different kind of characters uh thrown in team fortress style mixed together uh kind of took over that that that that genre so generally what are your feelings about this right so i'll give a little close-up of uh of this article so people can read it a bit more yeah like i mean yeah i think it's i think it's part of

things opening back up so so probably people are not playing as many video games as they would before i also think there's a lot of people becoming tired of the games activision is just putting out um you know you see there like the the mau's dropped for king and for activision blizzard but it didn't for um sorry didn't for blizzard because uh because a diablo immortal right um even though i i'm not a big fan of diablo immortal i have it i played it and i was like yeah okay and then i kind of i kind of put it down after what's your biggest complaint because you're a big diablo guy right no but it was it was clear you know as soon as you guys start using three different types of currency and top lock and level up stuff it was it was clear that that curve becomes crazy and it's all about the market transactions right and the grinding um and i'm like yeah i'm good i don't need to play that um

i know i was shocked it was actually it's actually on pct you play it on pc but it but it's it's very much like it's very much full game yeah yeah so i see i'm seeing some you know people are playing it i guess and they're getting some some some positive momentum from that but everything else man like yeah it's like it's just maybe people are just tired of the disabled games that that um that are coming out and just want something different well the same old games and wanting something different it's not exactly activision and blizzard's will and you know in the warehouse they kind of recycle yeah until it's beaten to death right that's kind of like their thing i mean the smart thing obviously the the one thing that you can never uh take away from activision blizzard is that they're very calculated in their risk right they have charts and analytics years before

anybody catches up the fact that this title that we're reading says that the monthly users uh are you know there's less people playing their games pretty much but they still beat cell's expectation because of these micro transactions because of the mobile version i was just reading you know call of duty war zones coming out with the mobile version soon uh with their 2.0 um uh blizzard activision in particular they're they're skipping call of duty for the first time in like a decade right so there's one coming out this year with modern warfare and the one after that is uh next year will be skipped maybe some more dlc or whatever and then the treyarch takes 2024 right yeah yeah i mean they are definitely um very smart with knowing that they don't need to rely on a yearly

an annual call of duty anymore they probably sense there is a lot of fatigue with their ips which is uh the most dangerous thing a big publisher ever wants to hear right uh and in the midst of all this they they sold to microsoft or microsoft is slowly acquiring them you know through that hasn't gone it hasn't gone through no not yet i think they're still finalizing it because of uh monopolies i don't know but you know it's they sold at the best time ever i mean we have friends there right um i'm sure you hear all the time that every time we go on linkedin at least for me right i'm like seeing seeing someone who's been there for 20 years leave

i've seen that a lot at blizzard like almost on a weekly basis which i did not see uh for years right so there there's got to be some crazy attrition that's going on over there um what are your thoughts on that like i didn't really think this whole lawsuit shakedown would matter so much yeah i mean yeah i think it definitely matters for when you're trying to hire people right so there's they definitely you know i know some folks that went there and they definitely when they went there they were asking all the questions about the lawsuits and the things like that right um so so it definitely impacts people's decision to even apply and go to a place um i also i just think like seeing the attrition of like long-standing vets i'm sure some of it is that but the other part of that is like as the company just gets bigger and bigger uh more corporate it might just not it might have changed from what it once was

and and the people that have been there for a while they're just like yeah now it's time for me to do something else because this is not what it used to be you know because like you know things just are gonna naturally change as as these companies get bigger and more money and different divisions and things like that and so people just gonna be like ah no i'm good i don't need to i don't need to deal with this anymore yeah i mean it's for surprising in a lot of the ways i mean like they're obviously making money there's a major deal with microsoft like if activision blizzard wasn't secure before or you didn't feel secure as a game developer working there you should be feeling more safe and empowered uh to speak up on creative ideas at least right um it feels like the perfect time to kind of stay when times are uncertain but uh uncertain as in you know

another range of topics that we keep talking about is all these huge tech layoffs that are happening across the board [Music] remote in office i think the majority i think the majority feels kind of still uncertain uh i think i think there's a niche i tell me how you feel about this right i feel like the companies are very sure of themselves are allowing remote to happen they're continuing they're supporting it but like a large i feel like a large washer are trying to like cheat cheat around what the word remote really means uh i'm sure you hear some stories that people would get into their second interview and would find the details out saying that oh remote as in you got to still be around the office remote not as across the country like i'm hearing a lot of that lately too i haven't ever heard any of that

actually ever yeah i haven't i actually haven't really talked too much people about there you go because you could be yours you're your unity bubble no such as that but the a lot of the folks i know have jobs not looking not currently looking right and so and so i haven't really heard any job hunt stories and things like that i i do see a lot of roles advertised as remote or or if they're not remote then they say they're not and if they're hybrid they say they're hybrid you know what i mean so so i'm not really seeing much in terms of bait and switching or anything like that going on um but yeah like i just feel i feel right now because of you know the stock market because of high inflation because of interest rates going up all these things that are happening um a lot of these companies are starting to tighten the belt you know oh yeah and start to be like all right maybe we shouldn't grow so fast maybe we need to really focus on

on getting that revenue right so i'm seeing i'm seeing more unease around around the straight up making money right uh and not necessarily around talking from people from working remote or anything like that it's all about can we get revenue can we can we be casual positive i'm seeing more of that than anything well what a perfect way to segue into our next topic talking about tightening the bell none other than the ceo of meta formerly known as facebook so they had just their quarterly reports uh recently and uh i guess the the thing that's being memed a lot or going viral is the part where where zuckerberg was obviously being flustered knowing you know bringing being pretty open with uh with how the there's a change in the air there's a lot of uncertainty inflation's going up

all this stuff that you were talking about that uh that there's a lot of things that have to figure out in meta because they're taking a huge risk uh turning uh from a social media company to a ar vr company right or uh meta metal world first metaverse first right yeah uh and with that uh you know stockholders and uh investors for meta are feeling uneasy with the directions that's been taken right we're talking about every quarter losing three billion dollars in that particular sector they're still making money but they are uh their main source of making money is under a huge threat right with tick tock kind of taking a huge piece of their pie no one talks about facebook people on instagram are getting annoyed because they're trying to make it look like tick-tock and then tick-tock is like what

everybody's talking about so then you look at the vrea group and in someone even though it was a recorded message asks if metadays which was created during the pandemic was still in effect this year which is uh their way to fight depression last year to kind of give extra days off to the world okay right and he he just looked annoyed saying like hey i just talked about how bad things are right so no this is not in effect anymore any any straight up just didn't even sugarcoat it is like hey there's some people that work at this company that shouldn't even be here straight up just saying cuts right before last score they say hey as far as we know we're not making any cuts so this is important in many ways right uh years ago

uh i you know a lot of people come to me for advice because i'm awesome and they're like brandon help me out right and i'm telling them this particular friend right and plenty of other friends like hey if you're working in the bay area as a game developer you need to go to facebook or one of these tech companies right and write out your career because that was what what facebook offered right it's just high salary stock options and just freedom right to do whatever you want easy easy stuff and short two years later i just as recent as today someone working there is looking to leave because they don't feel safe right and uh did you did you foresee this happening so quickly i mean a few roundtables ago we were making fun of facebook like hell but i was about to say i think i think mark saw your your roundtable yeah well roundtables ago where you were

just dissing on a part just dissing meta what did i say you're saying stuff like nobody's really doing work there people are just chilling right and and it turns and it turns out zuckerberg is like yeah i think i think you're right i think there's people here that are not fully pulling their weight and now we and now we have to because times are hard uh you know apple apple's app tracking um thing really took a chunk out of their advertising revenue as well and also like everything also companies are reducing ad spend too because of the hard time so they're trying to spend less money on ads and things like that and apple's ab tracking stuff it all took a chunk out of men met his numbers you know and before when the numbers were nice it was yeah spent three billion and hire a ton of people uh do we need more people need more people higher higher higher higher right and the standard is kind of you know

not everybody is going to be super brilliant person pulling their weight if you need to hire like 5 000 you know you're hiring thousands of people when the times are good right so now the times are bad you need to save some money and you're like you want to operate what did they say operate with intensity right yeah so so now you're now you're looking yeah you're looking you're gonna you're gonna trim the fat you do evaluations you're gonna turn the fat and and uh and try to scale back from this huge expansion that happened when when the money was cheap when the valuations were high you know that's not the world now you know it's important we're not just looking at meta and making fun of vr ar right i look at these as leaders of our industry right a lot of where we go is where they lead and it was true during the pandemic uh

meadow was doing really well or they were spinning like crazy like there was no tomorrow and then activision blizzard was hot with war zone like pretty much er if you look at all the companies that were benefiting and hiring like mad during the pandemic they're the first ones now that are doing massive layoffs because there's no reason to keep them or they don't have any work to kind of kind of support the need of more people and uh the risk that they took during the epidemic is not paying off um so in this case with meta uh i mean meta like even had like bad news on the day of like the bad day there was like uh the ftc blocked a uh they're trying to buy from a company within uh which is a vr company um and it's their fitness company but they're a fitness company and uh and this is kind of like the ftc

catching up to not stepping in when facebook was buying instagram and pretty much everything whatsapp right blocking any types of competition a few years back like they're finally catching up and preventing uh meta doing whatever it wants or or at least holding tech companies accountable now uh for for monopolies right which couldn't have come at a worse time like meta is getting hit from all angles here right and uh prophetically uh these are your words not mine uh one way or another i kind of predicted this you know yeah yeah you were they're blocking thousands of hires right but you know from what we've seen what they've produced at least publicly it doesn't require that

three billion dollars every three months to make right we're talking about subpar indie title graphics and gameplay here for what they're showing like yeah every dollar that's spent isn't what's going on the screen right yeah is it isn't going into an accident that you've seen right it's going into research the cafeteria yeah it's going into research trying to figure out of course it goes into employee like the number one cost is employees right and so then if you say the whole company's moving this this direction and we literally do not know how to do this right that's going to take money and that's going to take time right um and then there's two ways you could go about it right you can like just pour bodies at it right let's go yeah more bodies will will get us to the solution faster or you can go with like a little bit trimmed down team that focus on

something get it done understand what they're doing before going wide and hiring thousands of people right um there's different ways of going about this and and it's my opinion that maybe doing that first like doing like some little small prototypes and not just burning billions of dollars a quarter yeah is the way to go about doing something that you have no idea if it's gonna work or not right and so that's probably where most of the money is and things that are like you don't even know are happening there right and and they are asking themselves that those same questions that how can i make this look better does it need to look better what what's the other applications like how is this going to be useful for people right that takes a lot of a lot of time to figure out correctly i'm watching the body language of zuckerberg right i watch that little clip he's stressed man well yeah i mean that does that look like a man who saw something

in the research lab like 10 minutes earlier and it's like is happy about it no that's a man's like who probably did see something in the research lab is like no we're [ __ ] dude we're gonna have to cut some people quote unquote there's some people here that shouldn't be here like he's talking about something like specific people yeah like i said it's not like he when they first went the meta route he already said he's like 10 years yeah like that's the timeline he was talking about when you talk about meta right what's got him stressed right now is like just this reality the stock sell-off and the growth stocks and competition and the ad revenue and competition and all this stuff is taking chunks out of revenue um young youngsters don't even invest with facebook anymore right that's that's another part of it too is like like he's trying to you know pivot to the metaverse the next new thing where he thinks

young people are going to be in the future right because they they are not on facebook um today right and so you know there's that's what stressed them out and i think that stresses out a lot of companies right you're saying huge layoffs in tech like the layouts haven't been there's not a lot of them but it hasn't been a huge number of people um yet at least i would say i would say that right um compared to i think at least two years of nothing you know those two years ago it was two years of just high on the hog growth like crazy right um and i think across tech like at least in the last you know the last couple quarters it's been like what a hundred thousand two hundred thousand people laid off i think um something like that i saw some number like that on on something i think if anything it's it's a start like yeah we're gonna hear more and more because like what i was saying during the epidemic like there was no it was scary to me because i knew i felt like we agreed that it was coming you know there's no such thing as delayed gains

postponement lot of these triple a companies yeah but i'm not making you productive i'm not hearing it from video game companies honestly i'm hearing it more from the tech companies well tech goes first and then companies after maybe eventually also like also like in the hard times little games have always been proven to be kind of you know we're also like heading into we're also technically in the recession in the united states right but of course all the people are like oh no no no no we're not a recession because people set up jobs and things like that um but one of the things that's usually pretty resistant recession or not is is video games right because when times are bad people always look for some sort of entertainment yeah i mean that's kind of been go ahead the only difference though is now there's way more competition for people's entertainment eyeballs than ever before you know yeah well i mean i think that was

i think we're never gonna go away we're gonna have like a pretty safe baseline uh no matter what the crisis is but there is like a trend that i am seeing that i think will grow um i was looking at this article let me pop this open that were analyzing playstation users and um it was kind of championing how many playstation 5 they sold like 21 million but they've noticed a significant uh lesser playing time uh in the last year right so that seems to be the trend for everything lately uh people are just less inside people yeah like i mean if you compare if you compare any number to to uh 20 21 numbers yeah or 20 20 numbers yeah it's unfair there's going to be decline right because because people are

going back to like regular activities right um really then everybody you would you should be worried about is is it below 2019 numbers right and the answer to that is like no it's not right it's still above 2019 numbers because tom cruise you know why tom cruise saved us all top gun one billion dollars yeah put everyone back in their seats i mean the box the movie industry is a good one to kind of look at to to see the bounce back yeah yeah that's where everyone's what everyone's doing now right you know again something some people playing games yeah i will also say i like i don't know if the last couple of years were good there were some good games that came out but i don't think there's like there was a lot of great games coming out over the last couple years i finally started playing the miles morales spider yeah just like last week

catching up on it but like i was like was i'm like this uncertain time right now i think it's impacting more growth companies companies that are kind of speculative and not really profitable but like we we're going to grow we're going to show you how dope we're going to be in five years time right um but now the market has no patience for that anymore so so companies are everybody's like oh man how can i show positive positive gains positive gains positive gains right and so that's where you're seeing cut back in workforce um saying saying uh everybody's gonna have to pull their weight and we have to operate at higher intensity and things like that right um it's to get more revenue and to cut the losses right that's what people are really concerned with right now and video game companies for the most part have been pretty profitable over the last they've been profitable i think um

it but they don't react to i mean it's it's the famous developer thing to say they don't remember what you've done it's just the last thing you did right so like these companies are are quarterly right and if there's a signs of trouble they're they're trying to think ahead and they're reactive right they start laying people off so like a combination of what's going on it's like there's less people playing because they're going outside it's expected there's um uh these major companies these tech companies are definitely fasting their belt like you said they're not taking as much risk and uh things that were dominating during the pandemic everyone's kind of taking a step back overall you know crypto nft all this stuff that was hot definitely not right now no one's like [ __ ] that [ __ ] um people try to save their money right now yeah people trying to save their money and on top of that uh there's a lot of notemads right now

uh with game developers like like we were just saying people who's been at companies for 20 years 10 years are looking at this time for something new uh maybe because how remote work at home kind of uh prioritize some things for them right there is a lot of change that is happening uh people switching around people were just saying no i won't go in the office no i'm done with this i'm taking another a lot of people are changing jobs um and on top of that we're starting to see some layoffs right so what do you make about this this stew that's that's happening right now what do you think that's going to come out of all this and at the end of the year and beyond like something's happening i think not exactly for better for worse well i think i think i'll end up being for better i think like at the end of this year and maybe at the end of next uh what's going to happen is the strong

will survive you know the companies that are strong have solid business and solid revenue will still be around and those that do not will not boom you know like this just it's just that simple right and then also yeah and i think a lot of people you know after a lot of people died right going back to being morbid again but a lot of people died man and a lot of people worked at home a lot of people spent more time with families a lot of people traveled more and and then they're like you know what maybe i should prioritize this stuff more then then work you know um a lot of people saved a lot of money too but because they weren't going out weren't doing stuff weren't traveling so i was like oh i got a little bit of money saved up too right so maybe maybe now's the right time to make some sort of job change you know maybe or just complete lifestyle change right um it's probably a mixture of all those

things like in a big-ass pot just causing causing all sorts of different changes and and i think yeah i think it has changed work probably forever like i i think how people you work and hybrid remote and all those things i think i think that's going to change the way we work for for a while at least um and i think a lot of people are prioritizing other things outside of work more than work and so their people's focus have shifted at least at least i can speak for myself and say that's definitely for sure yeah i mean i've been talking and we we mentioned this a few uh roundtables before right so you know there's a lot of empowerment to employees right now a lot of um a lot of choices that developers have in terms of

leverage right straight up people every other day going on strike just stepping out of the office in the parking lot or straight up trying to set up a union which you know a couple years ago we thought was a far-fetched idea wasn't going to happen but it's happening right now at the biggest publisher ever at activision blizzard and it's being accepted and it's going and it's pushing i would say i wouldn't say it's being accepted because activation blizzard is definitely in it they're still denying it right but uh but yeah it's it's happening it's happening um so there's a lot of lot of shifts that are happening in the other side of this is like when i talk to you know small business owners indie developers people on the other side they're they're also kind of cautious because there's a lot of talks right now and we talked about this a few times ago where

um people in office it's usually the rare rarity now right and when it comes to rarity it becomes value right so people who are willing to come in the office look visible be side by side is always going to have an advantage right uh eventually because you know the people who run the place oh like honestly like i gotta buy office it goes down not even like seriously not even the bosses are there right so like yeah you want brown nose to be in the office go ahead ain't nobody gonna see you because nobody's there right yeah there's nobody in the office right so yeah i think with exception to the ones that fully embrace remote yeah that are you know because you guys were pretty much remote before remote was cool right like there's a lot of inter continental conferences and

meetings you guys were pretty much have to do that but like i think the companies that are more traditional and i i think overall most game companies are still very traditional still prefer in office i mean that's why i feel a majority still compromise with hybrid right uh in those situations though right outside of the exception to the rule like like you guys i think most middle managers still prefer people coming in and there was a large conversation saying that i don't know if it's true but it's something we're thinking about it's like hey america's kind of getting lazy uh because nobody if anything people want to work less right they want to focus on family more uh in a time where every other country is kind of stepping up in terms of competition right we were

just talking about how you know blizzard and all these companies are facing more competition than ever right um my kid kind of off tap topic but kind of in the same vein here was playing this game on his phone with his friends and i was looking at it and i was like what the hell is this and he was like oh it's stumble guys all right i'm sure you heard of this stumble guys it's complete one-to-one rip-off and let me pull up something here let me pull it up on the screen it was the funniest [ __ ] i've seen a phone guys it looks like yeah it's fall guys bro it's called stumble guys and it's for the mobile right and it's on steam too but yeah but like how is this able to exist in 2022 right what do you mean to be able to blatantly copy a game and barely change name that's how that's how safe they felt

let me pull this up you know what i mean but people would do this forever though rip it off game even fortnite kept their name fortnite and then you can't call it pub g better you know i mean at least try to kind of look like i mean i look at this game it looks very it looks very polished yeah it looked exactly like fall guys if i if honestly if i if i didn't know any better i would think they straight up straight up to bassets even but uh well it's a very easy game to copy you know and i mean the guy doesn't it looks like it looks exactly like it the customization i mean they're very smart i mean obviously getting away here here's this [ __ ] right i looked into this and this game is at 160 million downloads right guess what fall guys is at still 50 50 million downloads so this game

tripled tripled its users is focused is no that's why this game is killing it because they took advantage of that market but this is so insane like do we have no copyright law ever not for games not for game ideas no they're not you can't copyright game idea right there's no mechanics here that are awful right it's just yeah you're just like what is going on what's the point what's the point of getting into the brainstorm anything dude it's just like hey let's spend a week looking at the top games and it's just straight up copying on mobile i think they they because it's okay they seize an opportunity right like if they like it it's on steam but i'm sure the majority of the users are on mobile and that's that's the opportunity they saw that i thought guys now mobile like we could do it let's go right

and they were able to get it up and running and onto mobile quickly right and so they're benefiting from from that oh yeah they're benefiting greatly from that i would love to kind of get one of their team come on talk to me and when when they started and when they finished and to plan my future retirement and they're in finland there you go well anyways i i was looking at this right and i was like so thrown off with with how they were doing things um because this is the world we're living right there's a lot of mobile it's the oldest story in time right app store anything mobile device it's known for copying blatantly and getting away with it uh and in most cases success you know math to massive success um

i i don't know exactly what i'm trying to say with this thing i just thought it was hilarious that this was happening in the midst of all this other stuff that becomes like the headlines for our industry right i mean this is as a developer you have to be offended and scared like if we are aren't able to kind of go in there and come up with an original idea and it isn't protected like what's the point you know at a certain level here the point is is you're in the entertainment business right at the end books and movies don't let this slip like if they uttered like what what was the last time what okay okay let's put it this way i'll put it this way uh movies are not so blatant with their copying you're correct but there are certain tropes and certain themes that they just they they recycle right sure cycle and then they're sequels which are of course

copies of themselves or whatever right if you want to look at it that way but like no but we're an entertainment business where it's literally what the top two percent are making all of the money the top two percent are making though right and having some games happens happens in movies right and so those slim margins there like the people that are really at the top of the game can reach the most people are are reaping right um and so like yeah with games games get copied all the time you know and people and ui is exactly the same too and people people get mad people get mad about it all this every time it happens right but it keeps happening and then there's like straight up acid flips and all that kind of stuff that's been going on for years right so like none of this is like surprising that somebody's like i'm gonna make a game called stumble guys and put it on uh put on the mobile store like this is the first i'm hearing of it quite frankly but uh but like it's not i'm not

surprised by it at all hey i'm i'm always keeping up with the trend right so this is happening right underneath our noses right it's just so funny in a way i feel bad for the actual developers right because they are a small team but then they got bought by epic right so they're owned by epic and they got fortnighted essentially [Laughter] you know uh i mean overall i guess both sides are making money and they're fine but yeah man it was crazy too it's like uh i'm reading some stuff and people are like stumble guys is better than fall guys there's people claiming that there are there are a lot of little courses i mean they're making things a lot faster it seems like there's so much more scenarios and um [Music] that's not fair though man that's just not fair i mean how how if you can just copy something really

quickly of course you're going to have time to iterate faster i mean people who's doing the original stuff takes a little longer always come on iterate that yeah yeah oh oh what what do you see okay yes the stumble guys you can only have 32 players but phone yes has 60 60 players bro i just saw my kid huddled up with eight of his friends and i was like they're winning you know once the kids are playing it basically for four hours straight they won i mean that's just really it and you know what my kids said i was like stumble guys they completely copied he's like yeah they completely copy fall guys it's really fun i was like that was it that was the end of that conversation they can care any less that's that's the the epitome of users man they don't care no one's fighting you have to give them the entertainment that they that they're looking for you know and get the

eyeballs that's it you know if all guys i think mothers just yeah they really missed the opportunity they should have done in mobile like immediately i don't know why they still holding back on that don't understand what the reason is isn't it just a button for you guys in unity like the graphics yes it's not that crazy yes yes uh yes brandon um all you got to do is hit a different button and a game that has a different performance envelope yeah different cpu different gpu different cpu have you seen fall guys let's just just run have you seen fall guys everything's a box in the cylinder right it's just a simple game in the world all guys support 60 players playing simultaneously in an environment like the the netcode is probably hey finland figure it out i'm sure these

guys are good yeah i mean the main thing is separate it's except for that sure but i'm just saying it's been out for what a year a year and a half or more than that yeah yeah they could have spent you know a niche group kind of partitioned to the sidelines make me a mobile version of this i mean they could have done that i mean obviously this team did it i mean and they didn't have the assets to start with all right yeah well it's also the company is mobile game company so they have the expertise of making mobile games as well of copying games yeah and so they're really good and so then this copied copy the game got it out there and reaping the success it's it's it's rough it's rough out here it's perfect should we move to finland just wait just wait for a top 10 game in the ios store and just like oh i'll just

copy that you're crazy well i mean let's uh let me kind of move on to this story right here i mean overall there's my thoughts is that the industry is in a weird spot a lot of people i think the best way to summarize it is a certainty right there's a lot of uncertainty that's going around the air in terms of people trying new things um and and not staying at their company uh people definitely love remote people definitely forcing remote and um i'm still on the fence with that or honestly probably over the fence i think most people are not good at remote man let's just say like brandon you are you are um i'm a fully remote you're saying no you're stating an opinion about something that you've been railing against for like the last four months

acting as if it's a big surprise that you are not for remote working i'm just reiterating why you basically because what happens man my my rants are all coming [ __ ] true dude zuckerberg himself is all like hey this ain't working out you know the happiest the the rich one of the richest man in the world say hey i don't want you to take extra days off anymore you know it's true i think they have other problems more than all of the remote remote workers that they have i think they have other problems but yeah yeah overall they're crashing and burning pretty fast um i think it's becoming like a lottery ticket for them to actually pull one out here and and make it trendy again they're losing touch so fast like face like they they pretty much abandon facebook

right it's just a thing now right they're not really in these quarterly things they're not talking about how to improve facebook right they're not talking they're like it's done it's dying right we need to move on the next thing and then instagram they're like slowly killing that uh i was well well there's a lot killing it by trying to turn it into tick-tock exactly like uh like what um one of the uh not kardashian the jenner like yeah she's like the top three yeah most followed on instagram complaining how it's too much like tick tock how she wants to be a photo and it's okay it's crazy because like she said something about snapchat and they lost a billion dollars over a post that she did yeah saying that snapchat was was not asking for something no i'll say this right yeah like instagram did something to the feed where the feed is just gone because all the freaking videos this could be garbage right um

the focus on video they're 100 right though yeah like when it comes to video getting more engagement getting more eyeballs people watch them more all of those things are 100 true right like i i see that you know all the top the top influencers that make all the dough all the money right they have they either are a video editor or they have a video editor on as part of their team yeah to edit their videos right video is a more engaging uh medium on these social media apps right i think tick tock has proven that to be correct but like but then um instagram is just like all right cool video videos where it's at i'm just gonna show you random videos for random people right um and you're like yo where's all the people i follow or my friends like you can't even see their stuff without like hunting them down specifically that's when it's broken you know what i mean um so they have to find that balance between that right yeah well if you let

a bunch of nerds tell you what's cool i mean that's what's going to happen dude that's essentially what's happening they're programming what's supposed to be cool they're forcing it you know there's a lot of people and i enjoy it too like i don't want it to constantly feed me moving images sometimes i just want to look at a picture and just like read the you know caption and be done with it right sometimes sometimes you do but most times it's freaking videos and it's from people i don't know and numbers and numbers don't lie the numbers do not lie like they have the numbers and the numbers do not lie people interact more with the videos just like how just like how um when you do like speech um or presentation classes or whatever and they teach you uh move your hands right hey i i i get it yeah when you move your hands or you do and when you're talking it becomes more engaging

and people don't tune out what you're saying hey bro use your hands to emphasize you're talking you're talking to someone who went viral on instagram a couple months ago right with with the with the weightlifting videos with the push-up i did a push-up challenge right uh okay 1.4 million views all right not even all right i went fireball all right particularly in russia i don't know what that's about but like i get it okay i was there i i'm one of the pioneers in instagram right but like it's one of those things that i see how facebook kind of killed itself with suggesting all these advertisements all these different feats that i didn't care about essentially i just want to see my friends and who i follow on my feed predominantly right but right now i'm i'm being fed a lot of suggestions

and i'm being slowly turned off uh from i get the videos there it's the future but there's a transitional period that you have to allow people to adjust otherwise it's going to be too forceful and it turns people away it's like hey you're trying to turn into tick-tock why don't i just go to tick-tock you know it's complete it's a completed algorithm it's done it works right it's an app download away and the way they're doing it it's just sorry man it just feels like a bunch of old people doing it it's like you know what i mean i don't know it no it definitely is broken like it's definitely broken there's no there's no there's no doubt that it's broken um but i think the overall strategy of like that's that's i think focusing more on video yes feeding you more random stuff no right that's that's my stance on it right yeah um and i feel like i know we keep talking about tech what

does it have to do with games i feel like a lot of these games are these uh these triple a games are kind of doing the same thing right you know where they're kind of forcing uh like in copying what's popular i mean look at battle royale right battle royale polluted with battle royale now we're sick of battle royale right somehow fortnite and the ones that are good and enjoyable you can't make another battle right now right now if you come into a pitch room and and pitch another battle people are going to like shoot you right there there's one there's one coming out very soon that i'm actually excited about but um but yeah you like right now you can't really make another battery uh rumble rumble verse rumbleverse is coming up it's a wrestling wrestling themed uh battle royale it's amazing i need to look at this it looks amazing but anyway i like i like wrestling here let me look at this from over i played some of the early betas and stuff this is the

microsoft game i don't know something like something all from epic games publishing no it's yeah epic is publishing but it's from what we'll call it iron galaxy oh yeah oh okay come on i think it's around next week or something but like i'm like another battle royale but i'm like oh but it's wrestling themed yeah okay i'll i'll play dude wrestling games were like my gm growing up that's what we do all the time hanging out in land parties yeah now don't get around like this can epically flop right you know what i mean but but it it's surprisingly enjoyable and it's not like wrestling wrestling hand-in-hand combat hand-to-hand combat in general has been trending yeah uh that i've noticed um maybe because of all the shooting games we've had the last two years yeah people get tired people getting tired of shooting um kind of just like it's because because the customization oh yeah there's a lot

there's there's a bit of power stone vibe in it like it's it's it's it's really good um but you're saying yeah but i think the game is been like that though right it's been about what's hot and then there's a whole bunch of copies remember when every game was uh was a gta clone yeah right gta was hot everybody tried to clone gta and then that's how ubisoft was created right something else was hot and then yeah that's you know open world open world games became like oh every game happy open world and online and like you know like the industry does that all the time but it's like it's always it's cycles right and it's just like what's the next thing that they hit it big right or and then there's the indie community that are always doing interesting and different things right so um but i think you said it before you're talking about risk right it's it's it's because people don't want to be risky they're like oh battle royale's work all right let's make a battle royale people seem to like that but

but we've seen a lot of people take that approach and and fail you know um so it's not even a guaranteed thing yet you have to you have to find like what makes a good barrel royale game a good battle royale game i think a lot of people are still trying to figure out exactly what that is and they're experimenting with that formula but for the most part like we don't know what's going to hit for the most part taking huge risks every game you make you know what i mean well what i'm interested is that like everybody and their grandma in the past year created a game studio right yeah uh and that's what we see every week still all right there's like hey this guy once walked into a naughty dog office is now creating a new studio he passed the cross streets of of sony santa monica and now he's creating a studio with his friend that he just met right so i'm interested what that group of studios right

uh is gonna be coming up with because it's you know indie indie studios they're not exactly indie right they're like full on double a i would say right they have a lot of backing and investment there's a lot of heavy heavier hitters with six figure salaries joining right full on benefits there's front and center hey we're fully remote we care about you right messaging on their website usually well that's what that's what's about to say it's like they're super diverse all right i always have to throw that in there no that's not even true that's that's true it'll get me started but oh but um that's that's 100 not true but anyway um diverse they got they got 49 women but anyway [Laughter] anyway um yeah seeing like a lot of these companies that you're talking about it's all those

things right because yeah because it's it's um people are burnt out yeah people burnt out men burnt out of like the typical video game thing that's why people went to tech jobs and that's why some just go and start their own thing because they're just for that triple a and they want to do something different and want to like you know try to be different than what has been made before um and how the companies even operate right so i think that that's i think we're going to see it's like we'll see more of that i think it's good they were going to see interesting games even if they're not critical successes or make tons of money i think you're going to see you're going to see interesting games at the end of the day it is an art form right and so some people really care about the art form just want to make art right of course of course we all gotta eat you know we have to take care of families of course but um but a lot of times people just want to make something good and then they think if they make something good then the money the money will happen yeah all right here's uh you feel that man i feel another prophecy coming

i think most of these games that these companies gonna come out with are be [ __ ] right it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna uh prevent the actual good companies from getting finance all right they're dude nine out of ten gonna flop nine and ten are crap nine and ten won't know what they're doing but i mean you just that's the entire video game like seriously like i know that's that's more of the same any game you're going to try to make chances are it's going to flop chances are it's not going to be as successful as you think and then sometimes you think it's not going to be successful and then it becomes a mega hit right like well this is what i'm saying it's like hey guys you know yeah so i'm basically if i have 10 friends i can turn to nine and ten of them and they come up with this idea it's like hey man i wanna leave i'm gonna start this company i will stop him right there like hey just stop right there right

you've been at active vision blizzard for 20 years right you don't know nothing else don't do it don't ruin it for that one out of 10 guy just stay where you're at right if you haven't done it and you're like super old and you've been around there forever right just just write it out bro it's done for you dude dude that's that's why i do what i do no seriously that's why i do what i do is because i believe in more people making video games more people trying more people attempting yes i don't know man i like me to me isn't even that i believe in that if there's no risk then you really don't have anything important to say right it's a very weird starving artist kind of mental you know what i mean because these companies are basically you know people who are jumping ships

it's like getting their same salaries benefits there's no risk right it's why they're jumping ship no dude if you like these companies are getting multi-million dollar people deal people are definitely doing it and getting funding of course right because you can't make like you can't make any video game these days well you know how this works right you drink 15 20 million you bring a group of these aaa guys that's been in triple a forever and then you bring over all the triple a bad habits over where it's like hey it's done when it's done we'll just postpone it until we get it right which triple a company is that there's a few that are like that no but there's a few they don't get no no no i mean the dogs like that let me let me clarify let me clarify they don't get it right they don't get the permission slip to do it when it's done right but in the developer mindset the producer

that does a shitty job of planning things out right they do that and it never delivers and it postpones and gets cancelled we needed to postpone it and we did it i worked with so many games but what i'm saying is that there's no none of these aaa companies are very good at being efficient right except for blizzard uh or activision call of duty right most fail most most postponed bro most postpone or cancel right and dude of course how many games have been delayed during the pandemic okay hold on hold on games get delayed all the time yes yes um games are not done games have been delayed games i've worked on have also been delayed and then that's the triple-a they've been delayed more yeah that's right that's the aaa dna right it's just when you get too big of an ambitious project with people

who are basically mostly managers right because most people who are leadership position they're not rolling up their sleeves and doing the work but you're expecting these people to go to a double a company roll up their sleeves but no they're not rolling up this it's not a traditional indie company right not everyone serves like 10 different job titles they're doing the same [ __ ] they're hiring people underneath them to do the work for them that's how these companies these companies that you're seeing and i'm seeing that's how they're working right so they're functioning as if they are triple a but not without the aaa funding a lot of money still and they're bringing these leaders right that brushed shoulders with people who actually did the naughty dog games and now have this shot of their own they're doing it now and it's gonna be completely disastrous in my opinion now let's say this

in some cases you're 100 correct i think [Laughter] in some cases no no like if i see oh there's a new studio from people that worked at blizzard i i'm talking like you right because blizzard's notorious for it's down when it's done right but when you're indie you don't have the luxury of of just iterating iterating forever right because you have limited pool of money right so like yeah like i think in those cases yes but like a team from ubisoft or some other company like that no i don't think that because those those games are like killers they come at well no but those games come out on time right and it is what it is right like you know to me some of those games are bad like you know what i mean right and some of them are good and so they were buggy as hell and like should not have been released but they they're the same way because of fiscal year and all this kind of stuff right um i actually like when it's not tied to fiscal year when it's when it's not something that needs to come out because

we need to meet certain earnings gains or when they can tolerate um making something slip like because they have some other game that's making billions of dollars or whatever uh that that's when you that's when you get more time to get it right um i also think yeah i also think a lot of game game designers that's how they work even um they don't even know what game they want to make until they see it in front of them and they iterate on it and iterate with somebody and then they find the fun through this iteration process right that's something that that's something that is unbounded right you know what i mean it's hard i i i know you hate that i and i and i and i if any artist comes to you and say hey i'll know it whenever you run yeah in the other direction but a lot of a lot of games get ready like this a lot of games get made like this right yeah i mean they get made like this because they have the aaa backing of some time to kind of pre-plan like before

there was a certain point in my career where i thought pre-production was the beginning of a production of a game but now there's such a thing as pre-pre-production there's like a period for pre-pre-planning before a vertical slice and it just there's this huge extension of actual production of the game that is given now which i feel is the wrong direction for something a piece of entertainment that needs to be done uh in a certain amount of time not just for money's sake but you know once in a million years you have a game that doesn't doesn't matter if it's in the trend or not you know i mean but most games do have like a certain amount of time where we'll hit and be the most impactful right we can agree on that right just because of how the world is and how everyone's feeling there is like a

certain beautiful moment that you can time some people call it luck but you know a lot of it is planning too and i think this pre-pre pre-planning thing that aaa and these developers think now right dude most i'm sure you have friends right most of these guys come into a room with just a resume in front of our investors that's all they have it's like we don't have an idea yet but sit with me man i've i've no friends i have no friends by the way um no but um but you heard these stories i i do hear the stories and i hear that i actually hear it also from investors mouse directly that the number one and i think this is true like like in tech and games wherever investors a lot investors say it's kind of cliche at this point because they all say the same thing they invest in the people they don't invest in the ideas sure really right because at the end of the day like

a lot of people come up with really great ideas but you have to be able to actually execute on them right and so coming coming with a team of people that have executed before it's like oh yeah cool and if you come with a team we've executed before and they did it together oh that's even better because you guys know how to work together right and this is where this is where the veil is lifted right these teams that have done it before have not done it before right we're talking about these aaa guys that are good at pointing at people to do things right but not actually having doing it themselves so this is the false premise that a lot of these investors are putting their money into once upon a time those people were doing it themselves once upon a time i'm sorry dude there's a certain moment friend ready what's the word the driving passion last time you extruded a face or

like what was the last time you bottled something like let's let's talk about you right now five years it's been a long time that's what i'm saying right like yeah that is the scene i so i if anything i have a pedestal that i'm speaking from of from experience right if i come into a room with five more people like me i'm the first one walking out like i know what this means there's a lot of outdated people in this room right now i'm coming in with the group of people that are like the grunt workers right that i know that can help me bring this together but that's not the case these are people bringing in managers for decades to kind of start the team and logically it might make sense on paper right it's like oh you know they're good at leading they've done this before therefore they can do it again wrong wrong

it doesn't work that way dude because it just this is it's you know what it means you know what happens is like they might come up with an idea and then at a certain point in the production let's say four months down the line is like all right well we're blocked so why we block we gotta hire all these people that can actually do these things so i mean they go on to this long journey yeah i was trying to hire these people no that's part of the pitch like you're pitching yourself you may not have an idea but at least you have a plan for like how you're gonna staff it right but how much money you need you you have to ask for how much money you need right sure but um but the uh what was i saying um i think i think you i think you're you're not guaranteed success and investors know the success is not guaranteed that's why they're investors right but how do i compare this what it feels like this is what it feels like mitigates the risk you sign up to a marathon but you have no runners right you're just signed up to a marathon you have no runners on

your team and you just show up and they're like hey let's just find runners here and then you might make it in time but most don't right it's just too late for preparation and i'm just saying that this is a bad trend that we're pushing for the next two three years a lot of these studios will fail because a lot of triple a people are [ __ ] i mean that's what we know it's like a lot of triple a people are [ __ ] dude what you saying man you you and i we're not gonna create a video game company is what you're saying so you're saying i've been i've been indie for a while so i have indie blood in me it's different i didn't just walk off you know 2k's live it's different i've been accepted by this new group of people but what i'm saying is like it's it's unfortunate i think it's gonna be a bad mark where because of what's gonna happen that these games gonna show up i think mostly empty-handed handed half-baked

prototypes right because like you said the the reason and this is where i think is the reason why inherently there's going to be bad products because the primary reason a lot of these developers are leaving is because of balance of life is because of their sick of their day job right but they're not driven by what i consider what most indie developers are on why they're succeeding they have an idea that that they have to get out there right so to me a lot of these companies are doing it maybe secondary or even tertiary you know uh reasons of why they are forming a company and i don't think that's a good start for anything they're just digging digging for ideas now no i hear what you're saying right but i don't think like honestly i think if anybody in the video game industry wanted better standard life and more money and all this kind of stuff like

the last thing that they should do is start their own company right but that's what they're doing that's what they're doing that's what i'm saying because no because i the people the people that really want those things leave yeah and the people that stay and say i want to create a video game company first and foremost they love video games still and they still want to make video games that's why they start a company right and whether and whether and they want to do it different maybe and there might be other aspects of it right but the for most reason is they want to make a video game otherwise they will just go do something else that will make them more money with less stress right less foolishness right they could just do oh you're giving way too much i mean there's definitely a sector of people who are multi-disciplinary that can uh move and migrate to different industries using the same skill set like you yourself and a lot of our friends of course but i think most most triple a guys who's been stuck making games

and especially these companies have been working with proprietary proprietary engine right very unique processes that are i would say outdated right most of these get dudes like someone that's though that's a nice way of saying it that's a nice way of saying it right outdated processes base seriously like 20 15 years out of the loop right have been touched unreal three right four or five unity you know uh 2022 they haven't touched and played with any of those technologies uh imagine someone walking from the blizzard wow team all right imagine any of those ips right any of those ips even pick the newest one maybe overwatch right those technologies are at least five years old right we're talking about pre substance which is a texturing program that completely changed the game change the game in texturing right right

blender right zbrush the latest zbrush none of these fools are playing with those tools right they don't know anything all day no but like none of these guys are playing with the hottest and greatest because they didn't have to and now they because of their resume they are able to leave and they're playing with tools that takes you 10 times or even 100 times longer because that's what they know right they're not out here exploring new techniques so therefore whatever crap that they're sitting in a room and trying to figure out because again the game idea is secondary to why they left right they just didn't want to work at blizzard anymore so they created this they're sitting in a room they have old techniques that's going to take them 10 times longer to actually make the game they want to make once they figure it out of course right they're already funded day one right day 30 day 90. they're two years in still thinking about what games do we want to make

right to me that's the majority of these makeups of these companies they're a bunch of old dudes hanging around maybe some women maybe some more diverse people you have high doubts but there's a bunch of dudes hanging about wasting money that could have been you know better use for us somewhere else to actual indie companies to actual people who had a game or had something to say and i think yeah now it's like mostly a free grab it feels like anybody with a resume can go out there and get an investment it's the best of times but like we saw with the epidemic there will be a crash and i think it's going to crash pretty hard and it's going to prevent there's going to be a cold number of years where you know a group of talented developers can't get money anymore well i think of course well i think we're heading into that right now right because like that's what all of this that's happening right now everyone's holding the money back

everyone's holding back money they're not making as many bets they might still be investing but not like as as they were before so it's gonna become harder to to get funding like i think that's i think that's happening as we speak right um whether whether the companies have started are gonna be like i mean it's easy like i said this before twos to a different friend it's really easy like any new studio any new game idea or whatever for any reason if they're making the studio it's very easy to say oh yeah you're gonna fail because ninety percent of the time you're probably gonna be right regardless regardless of the reason the reason right made out of me i i prefer i prefer to be like everybody wants a chance of doing something cool and whatever reason it is that like i don't i don't want to work seven days a week anymore i think that's a valid reason oh i wanted to spend more time with family valid research i don't want to crunch valid like all these are valid reasons right and if you have the ability and

the team to go and go try your luck raise some money and make something go ahead go ahead try all right i guess i just have a different perspective i just have this image of gluttonous kings at these aaa companies who don't feel like they want to be there anymore and they decide to take all the food all the reserves that could have been for actually starving talented developers just because you know they can i mean i mean your issues what's left more with the investors more so than people but like i said investors are idiots hey man i'm saying man both sides of the table are idiots right but that's where the money's at and they're just giving and and flushing it uh and i it sucks because like you said you could tell when brandon does not need any money from any

when he's talking like this my [ __ ] comes true every time we talk right i'm just projecting what's gonna happen and if you have you're talented you have a good game idea let that be the reason why right and i'm hearing too many stories that people are getting together and they don't even have a prototype and it's doomed for failure it's like what chance do you have dude you don't even have a reason why you're together right well i i know no i don't want to go to work you don't want to go to work i know people that have a game idea they have a game idea they have a pitch they haven't made it yet and they have the key people in place and not the only people and their their vision is too big to do themselves yeah right because that's usually always the case and so now they need the money in order to go hire people and do the thing

right yeah um like i mean that happens all the time well we've been talking for over an hour uh a lot of ranting you know we take our best stabs at it right yeah and like i i always end this you're you're always the more optimal optimist optimal optimistic right uh person out of us and i always hope that that's the case right sure um and yeah i would love for every game developer who has an idea to make whatever they want but living in reality it's like maybe you should not do that game [Laughter] maybe it isn't you know you can't here's the thing there's always going to be a piece of system there's always going to be people that are admitted for the wrong reasons whatever whatever at the end of the day if it allows for more games to be

created yeah more ideas get out there more people express their opinions i think that's good yeah man trash trash is valuable too um so okay i mean let's end it on that note i hope next time we talk uh meta's doing better right because we have a lot of friends there activisions do better even though there's a lot of people leaving like you said there's a lot of people that are finally going there and hitting their bucket list right with an asterisk it's like i work at blizzard and i was like do you though i've been trying for five years like it's not the same right now it doesn't count it was a lot harder back then all right so uh if everyone is eating staying healthy that's really what we all care about right um

but you know everyone is fastening their belts so enjoy where you're at while you can because it's most likely and looking like things are changing a bit in the next couple months so yep that's true all right well as always uh where can we uh find you if they want to exchange ideas with you on twitter ray yeah it's on twitter w-a-d-a-r-a hey man he really wants you guys to come at him so tweet adam you know time stamp this this episode saying at this time he said this i think that's atrocious you know whatever you want what do you mean is not diverse enough you know he's half mexican any other stuff [Laughter] what do you mean he's not diverse though he wears glasses what what are you talking about he's from

he's from czechoslovakia yes all right you're not understanding what i'm saying all right we want all that all right and then tag me because i'll lull at it all day uh as always thanks for joining thank you everybody have a good one [Music]