Kwalee’s John Wright On Attracting Valuable Users With A Loyalty-Driven Approach

[Music] hello worlds uh you're listening to the pocketgamer.biz podcast with myself Brian bagloo and the mobile Maven herself Miss Piggy and Sals good afternoon piggy how are you I am fine mobile Maven that's a new one Brian you come up with one every time to amaze me I am really good actually because of our guest because is one of the chances we have to be a bit more like a talk show a little bit edgy no script it's sort of like a a whatever pops in our head sort of thing how can that be a bad show I think this is gonna be one of our better ones I mean I hope so you know all right John all right go jumping all over no no no no it's as you can probably tell we're being joined today by John Wright from quali welcome AB board John thank you so much for agreeing to come and talk to us I I really appreciate the off

guys it's always nice to get in front of of an audience and talk about the the subject I love so yeah really happy to be here and hopefully we'll cover cover off some interesting questions today and and give some good material for the the audience out there to listen to I'm I'm convinced we can strap ourselves in for this one Brian because you may have seen you know where isn't John these days right he's been talking in a number of events he's out there being very vocal just what we need the champion out there talking about the market the strengths and weaknesses of the market so I have to do this I don't know if you've seen it in LinkedIn Brian I know you've been be recuperating and sort of chilling after Scot games week but if you want to talk about strengths and weaknesses in the games Market we have to talk about you personally John you are an Iron Man in every sense of the word quite a photo quite an experience I think just just sort of share that moment with us what does that say about you as a person or you as a person in the games industry

yeah look um God I'm a little bit embarrassed if I'm honest but um but yeah so I just completed H Ro London in the open which essentially it's uh an upand cominging thing but it's Fitness racing it requires long endurance uh running as well as like a lot of different um highly physical strength based activities um in a race format so I've got you know I start to finish and I've got to do a certain number of things in a certain way and then I eventually get the time to to break but I um yeah I I I like training I think there's a direct correlation between you know um strong body and strong mind you know that's a Marcus relus sort of sort of stoic sort of ephos but yeah and um you know essentially I got into this only um in the last couple of months but I've been a um a big fan of sports and a big uh player of sports for my entire life I was uh sort of captain of East London Rugby Club club for nearly a

decade um and you know one of my proudest moments outside of professional work is leading that team to Championship Victory and and and winning the league as as Captain of a team of 25 people that I call friend and brother so yeah Sports and uh and sort of high intensity stuff is something that um I've always been a fan of something I've always been part of and again I think I get a lot of my um strength in business and and general management from my history of being a captain of sports and then loving Sports and it's great to hear because all to all to often people look at uh those working in the games industry and PE see people who never leave the screen you know never get out of the office and it can cause problems but and it's very timely because it's we were just H chatting before we started recording about the fact that quali is holding its first event early in 2024 you know and we've got PGC London coming

up I've just run games week so welcome to the world of events yeah thank you I mean um a huge shout out to the whole marketing team that have been preparing this um I think you know a brainchild of Harry Lang and our VP of marketing and and you know shout out to Kieran Adam and Ryan and and you know a lot of the people that are putting this together we think it's about time that qu gets you know onto the big stage and starts to you know come together with with the people that we partner with as well as you know from a publishing perspective as well as being part of this industry we're all together um we're a big believer in you know a High Tide Rises or ships and you know going um to Market and producing something where we were able to Showcase a bunch of content and the stuff that we have learned in our 12 years of business um to a wider audience we believe again what's good for the ecosystem is good for us and uh we're really looking forward to hosting our first online event and uh you know

touchwood in the in the future I would love for us to do a physical event I was just at roio con last week and uh I absolutely loved it and I would love for quali at some point to do something maybe not as Grand but something so are we waiting for qual con but probably not I think this is dipping the toe Peggy but look you'll be the first person on the list you'll be the first invite I send out if if we do it eventually okay you're on that would be great and you know what works well at at at events John live podcasts just saying throwing that out there very funnily enough I've I've just agreed to one at PGC I've got I'm G to do a live podcast from PGC this year we're doing some too aren't we Brian Brian aren't we doing some as we are that's the plan that is the plan yeah we we should be there so we may just be part exactly we will'll be able to rugby tackle people

as they go past John we might be looking for some tips aim low and hit them hard that's that's it that's the tip man and ball man and ball okay we're going to we're going to move on um so so quali itself um you know in the last year the company's been making some big big moves into sort of the whole hybrid casual space can you talk to us about that what drove you or or what led you in that direction what kind of success have you seen sure so I think um to start off with that I believe that you know it's been very easy to understand the evolution of hybrid in my opinion um and what I mean by that is hyper casual had all of the elements of success you know we saw more launches in Market we saw more names in market and you know Studios that previously would never have an opportunity to get to the top of the charts were able to do this because of the stickiness of the games and the you know the very addictive core mechanics and all of this other stuff and it it became um an easy entry point for a lot

of Studios to develop something uh you know very interesting and also very quickly very cheaply and then you know it it became down an economic conversation which was is your arpo higher than your CPI and if that is true then you're profitable and then you scale and you know uh it was very much like a make hey while the Sun is Shining Moment For A lot of people out there um sadly over the last sort of 18 months two years um there has been a downturn in the number of games going to market the number of installs happening on a daily basis like if you look at any of the sort of core Topline metrics you know you can see that gaming um whilst Revenue might be up gaming as a as a whole is down and the small and medium guys are the ones that are losing out right the big ones are continuing to power through and and this is where the the disparity lies from a lot of companies saying hey Things Are are amazing but these are the the big

companies who are unaffected by such changes so the the evolution into hybrid is essentially trying to capitalize on everything that people learn including quali during the hyper casual stage and essentially this is focusing again on on really good core mechanics but quite simplistic sticky stuff that is easily developable in in a shorter time frame rather than your two threee development cycles and it's yeah it's about then evolving that to become um you know a deeper and it's and that comes from increased meta that comes from live Ops that comes from events and that comes from cultivating cultivating a more loyal audience right which you know Peggy and I did uh something for Forbes recently which you know which was great and you know the idea of a 7-Day LTV curve is very foreign now but two years ago that's what people were looking at so if you're able to you know work and

build out a very loyal user base that of 30 days 90 days you know 360 days then then you're going to find much more success in this market um and this is essentially what what hybrid is doing it's it's improving the monetization metrics it's you know making a deeper experience which bringing people back time and time again for longer periods of time which is having a direct correlation and increase to the LTV and the arpu AR any of the Financial metrics and we've gone from you know your average arpo of 30 to 50 cents to to with hybrid 150 to $2 which in the current market with um you know UA becoming ever more difficult through idfa deprication or through just the the general amount of Supply in the industry has gone down which means that the cost of that supply and the demand is you know has gone up which means that yeah the cost of the supply the CPM has has gone from say 2025 back up to $35 $40

which again means that your CPI has gone up and this is why hrid is a winning formula because it's taking all of the fun quick um stuff that everyone learned from from hyper it's adding in this deeper matter and make the ability to monetize more effectively increase the monetization and then it's still allowing you to be marketable and uh and make a profit so just very to touch really briefly on on hyper casual do you think it's had its day do you think there's there's it's ever going to kind of come back through in a way I personally don't Brian um I I'm going to be very ruthless and say I think it's dead and there's a lot of people would argue with me and say no it's not I think anyone uh worth their salt who was successful in hyper casual is now chasing hybrid and the days of finding profitability at 40 cents 50 cents is near I impossible based on the the numbers as I'm seeing you know again if

your your cpms are gone up by 50% on the on the UA side and the CPI has therefore gone up by the same amount you know you your your cpis which were 35 cents 40 cents and now 6070 cents GE you stayed the same then you are you're down right you're you're negative you're making a loss and and I think anyone who tries to operate in the same way without improving the monetization and the complexities of the game will just find themsel either eating into the margin they had or being you know at a loss and I'm going to pull you back to to idfa and the whole you know approach to the the ongoing changes around privacy and um you know the use of data how are you finding it you know do you think we've seen the last of the changes I don't know if the worst is behind us if I'm honest I don't know I mean we know that Google sandbox is coming right and a lot of people have been very strongly leaning on Android and if you look at the the spend difference you know like

if we would go back like two years ago people would predominantly be spending on iOS right so SE maybe 70% of the spend would be iOS 30% of Android because the iOS users were more valuable more affluent you know however you want to describe it um and then I think if you look at the market now it's probably more like 5050 right so Android is is eating up a lot of the spend because people still have um somewhat of an ability to to Target in a in a better way you know with seeing scan updates happening um on on you know on a regular basis and you know you see that something's gone out and then you everyone's you know deciding if they're going to go to market first and then they wait and then there's another update and then people are put you know seeing what the impact is and you know I still think it's a very sort of like turbulent time for for people learning um iOS and how to navigate in the current um Market I personally hope that Apple eventually make things a little bit easier right and and give back some

of that but um who knows they also have their own strategy right and we know like apple search ads is a big growing sector for them and um we need to find out exactly what what that means for the future one thing I wanted to get to is one thing that we jumped on and we didn't have enough time because you came to the rescue John with some amazing insights on loyalty because not a lot of game studios are looking at it the way you are and that's why you ended up of course in my article but you talked about things that we couldn't dive into such as for example the idea of adopting what you call a loyalty driven approach to growth we couldn't explore it uh but we can now so I'd like to ask you to delve a little bit deeper into that what is that because I think there are some lessons in there for Studios just beginning to look at retention and ways to extend the life cycle I think is a mind set shift Peggy because

historically or over the last couple of years everyone's main core Focus has been the acquisition of the user right get the user into the game worry about your Dow worry about your Mount and then again um especially for hyper casual and and and you know more casual games it was a case of you know get them in get them through the machine and the cycle the fatou all of that stuff and and eventually if they churn right then they go to another game so be it I believe now what companies need to be focusing on is actually the longevity of users right and building an environment which actually allows that user to stay for as I put it you know a year um you know and I think if you look at the most successful gaming companies in the world your supercells and companies of this ilk this is what they've done for years this is not rocket science this is putting your users first and building out an environment through live Ops

through events through guilds through community and establishing something that will allow people to and through multiple reasons multiple reasons why to come back more often and we all know if you're you've got more sessions per day and your session lengths are longer and your attention is longer you are going to make more money that is basic you know economics in games so again it's a mindset shift from focusing purely on how do we get the you know as many users as cheaply as possible two how do we maximize our users moving forward so just exactly that because what you shared with me and that was mindblowing by the way you know a 40x higher LTV is what you told me you were able to get more value out of your payers which is really what it's about it's not necessarily getting everybody but getting understanding who your payers are getting them to do more so first of all congratulations on that 40x is massive thank you massive it's a sensational number I I can't take the

credit for it I've got a shout out to the qual marketing team and and the strategies that they're putting together to to Really you know focus on that you know and obviously partnering with companies like misplay who who did the um we did the report you know there there's um some great companies in Market that are really trying to live uh by this strategy of of user first and um you know it it for me it it goes back to hunting like we did five six years ago but you know now we don't have the targeting to be able to do that before they hit the app and now is like you know establishing the Persona of your whales once they've hit the the app and then maximizing you know the amount of money you're able to generate from them and you know there's there's going to be it's going to be fractional right it's literally you know uh less than a percent of users less than half% of users but if you can Target them effectively and give them the experience they require and and draw them back time and time again then you know your base

averages start increasing because of how effective you're targeting those high value users so delve a little bit deeper just for a moment like how you did that we talked about the the report for example I wrote about the report and there were like things in they're like yes you know real world uh rewards are going to work as well you know it can be tangible can be intangible it can be incentivized there's a lot of different like flavors of how to get someone to invest more time in your game I think we're actually at the beginning of all this to to be completely honest Peggy um there are some examples um from from Yer year and I I would like to probably you know just expand on one which is the Zinga and and their VIP strategy and you you see this in casual or um Social Casino games right they the games where you see high value players spending you know thousands of dollars a year on in that purchase but what I always loved with

zinga's white glove approach was they actually isolated their their whales right they know who they are through through internal means and then they um then they give them some incredible Real World experience and service like uh zingga would fly people out to to Las Vegas and give them helicopter rides and give them private experiences where they would you know be exposed to you know to the people making the game and they would be included in you know the uh product stages and and shown new features and you know Zing get a lot out of this but these people who are these hardcore Elite where do they get that elsewhere right that level of and and again at quali we we're trying to we're not something as Grand as that because we're not Zinger but you know we're trying to give those um bigger experiences and that onetoone service and you know speak to our users you know more more regularly get their

involvement in focus groups and just you know just just try and make them feel part of the process these people love our games and they love games in general so so why not give them that bit more and make them influential in what you're developing obviously again there's also the case of you know just customizing your general experience to ensure that certain users get different offers and you know from a from a live Ops perspective you know my personal standpoint on live Ops is if you're not doing it right now you know you're going to pay the price long term and if yeah if you don't have a long-term events and live op strategy focusing on different personas of users then you're not going to go the distance and you're not going to survive long term or or you might you might as still be on the map but you're never going to um exceed expectation and I think this brings us back to to the point you made earlier John which is it's it doesn't seem to be enough to build that into individual games and So

within a game you've got your on boarding you've got you know the player being looked after but you have to take look at this from a company perspective and then across your catalog as a whole yeah uh again I don't think like you know things like um cross promotion right uh something that was done a lot you know um you know five six years ago and you would get you know Zinger especially again I don't want to actually I don't want to keep name dropping them but they're great at what they do obviously I'm a fan but you know the ability to use cross promotion to get a user um from one app to another and you know ensuring that they stay in um interestingly you know the roio con event last week you know Sega was talking about Sega verse right and now roio is part of the Sega verse and you know like not just from a trans media perspective but also ensuring that the users are going from one part of the SGA verse to another in different ways it's yeah I definitely think building out that that universe verse um either

smaller or bigger depending on you know how you you strategize on it but yeah just by ensuring that these users stay within your catalog and and your portfolio is is very very uh important you know and also a lot of the time what you see is um a user that maybe has been in one um app for a long time the uh value of that user goes down steadily over time right they they join they doing that purchases and eventually they start getting tired or bored and you know they look for something so the you know the average revenue per day per that user starts tearing off but then if you then take that user into another game they go through that that initial um cting process right you know like where they're going they're enjoying they're liking they're going through the fou they you know they're getting that euphoric new moments then their average revenue per day starts increasing again right so if you can you know keep funing the user through the multitude of apps that you have and Ure that you're maximizing the average Revenue per per day per user for for those users then

you know overall you you're net positive and you're making more money so it's it's definitely an important strategy and is this something that that qual are actively pursuing and is the hybrid casual approach kind of playing to that because obviously hyper casual you know you were in you were out you were fast and it was the games were so small that you didn't have the opportunity to get any of that meta game experience in so you starting to build out something that's recognizably qual with it you know across your across your portfolio I definitely think that from a um Topline business strategy perspective uh brand recognition is becoming ever more important and I think as a business we are doing um a lot of fa leadership and we you know I'm doing a lot of stuff in the Market at the moment we're doing this event and again it's about transcending the oneapp experience to being a multi-app experience for for the users and whilst we might be doing different genres of

games or different styles of games because quar are not just limited to hybrid we are doing casual and and other we have PC console and you know we we have a lot of different facets as a business but ultimately ensuring that the user now understands that its quality I think has more value and so this is why maybe even from you know above the line marketing traditional stuff sponsorships you know you name it all of this stuff becomes a little bit more important because of that brand recognition and ensuring that people will go to the quali store Page and be like oh okay I know that quali games are high quality they're fun you know what else is in the catalog that I can play so I definitely think this is part of of big business strategy not just for us but I think everyone needs to to focus on this again when it comes to this approach have the benchmarks Changed For You John are you still looking we've talked about you know LTV RP Etc you know the usual um benchmarks but on this longer term building loyalty how exactly

are you measuring that yeah so I think the main difference Brian is the metrics thes hasn't changed right like in terms of retention still important monetization R important the uh what has changed is the importance of the the long tail right so previously you know um day one day three day seven you know that's what you're worried about right and if if you got zero at day 10 or zero retention or or you know new Revenue at day 14 it wasn't that important now you have to make sure that you're optimizing the LTV curve to be going for for 30 days for for 60 days 90 days um and ensuring that these metrics back out on you know a much longer basis so you know because of that you are adapting your gaming experiences and from a Content perspective your content will has to be much bigger right you can't just put enough content to cover you know three

sessions of 20 minutes a day so seven hours of gameplay because you know that means at the end of the the one week people are like well I've done all the levels why am I coming back and then they leave so again your content strategy is Paramount you need to have enough content to bring people back for a year um and again live Ops events all of this stuff is a way to add on that but ultimately your your core gameplay needs and your you know the number of levels you have and and if you look at even the likes of King and dream games right you see every month or every couple of months they're adding 500 more levels right and I think King just on Candy Crush just did the 20,000th level right it was a big deal so yeah you need to ensure you know from that perspective the depth of the game not just the meta but but everything has the ability to draw people back so is it drawing them back because I mean I I get that and I saw also in the in the recent loyal loal y report from misplay that players want

to progress but then I'm also hearing you say no if you build a brand and you have a proper portfolio maybe it's not just progress in the game but progress in my universe because that's a whole lot easier than coming up with 20,000 levels for one single game yeah I I think you've hit the nail on the head Peggy it's it's a you know a different point of or another prong with another strategy right it's it's still overall the idea is to bring value to users and ensure that the user is having an enjoyable experience and staying around but if you're unable to some games the longer someone plays the more money they generate right you know like again games like dream games and Royal match and and King and and Candy Cross what you find is people who stay around longer generally spend a bit more money the longer it goes because the games get harder and the inap in that purchase frequency needs to increase for them to keep up with the difficulty right but then other games again if they're not um focused or built in the economy of such

is built in such a way then it starts tearing off so those games it's more important to ensure the portfolio is stronger but you know the games that with the right shop economy and and you know puzzle format and again the couple of companies I just mentioned they're not too much worried about this but but then dream games have a new game which is you know which is out now right and King have a portfolio of games so even the the ones who do that strategy very well still focus on new business and and a new experience so I think it's definitely um you have to do both yes you do do mobile but you do PC and you know we're talking about genres it's a little bit of hybrid casual maybe some casual big question maybe not the easiest answer but where you see the growth because you are so spread across all these areas yeah yeah look I'm in a very very good position and and ultimately the reason I joined qu is because you know

the company overall we're an independent funded business and we're very fortunate to have you know David darling who's our founder and and and uh you know was also the founder of cod Masters if you're familiar with the code master story that eventually sold to EA for a billion plus I think 1.3 1.4 so we're very fortunate that in this incredibly difficult Market we have someone behind us who is a stoer of gaming you know David was knighted by the queen for his efforts in games right so you know he's he's one of the you know he's been in games for nearly 40 years he was coding at 15 in the guys in his 50s he's an absolute in my opinion an absolute legend in the in the game you know for us because of that we're in a different position where we can take some more risks and and David himself is a risk taker um and this is why we have four core parts of the business right now we have my division which is the the publishing division we have our internal games division which is focusing on

hybrid we have another internal division which is focusing on casual and then we have PC console there's there's not a lot of companies that are able to to do that right now because of the the you know the cost implications and and stuff like that so we're very fortunate but we do see growth in all of those areas and I think you know um I would say the one that's that's growing the most um not just the call myself out but I think publishing is is proving very successful the moment and a lot of that comes from um the fact is that the market is is um doing is quite difficult for a lot of people now and the ability to launch games you know solo launch games has become more difficult and you do need a big team you know I put a post this week talking about you know you need an army to to publish a game and and I listed out 12 disciplines that you need including product and production and marketing and growth this is why also you know I keeps talking about the big guys are going to succeed because they have the resources and funds to be able to do so um so I think if you have the

resources and funds you know publishing at the moment it's going to be is going to be a great great Avenue for you and I think something that could be you know really successful um if not I think again hybrid is the safe bet it's the where we're spending probably 50% of our time is is focusing there and then we're taking a few more risks on casual and Casual plus you know more like midcore games but these you know those genre of games have the ability to generate 10 20 50 million in Lifetime right whereas hybrids you know the the likelihood is that most of those games would be more shortlived um and the life cycle of those games would be more six to 12 months rather than three four years so you need to balance that you need to you know have success in the short term but also having an eye on the future and long-term strategy I think that says it all really if you were just tuning in and you just got that answer you're you're set and I have to look for that post by the way because you are a prolific out there writing as well

John speaking and writing I'm impressed honestly Peggy I don't know how you've done it as a career it's the most difficult thing in the world is writing content I'm currently spending like four or five hours on a Sunday in front of a laptop with my dog and my wife trying to come up with stuff that I think is going to help people it is so difficult I I don't envy you guys in in the media business I'm much happier behind the screen you know talking about games really based on this conversation there's an awful lot stick at it John because there's an awful lot in there I think that can can really help people out there across the whole of the games ecosystem talk about information density there was a lot in the last 30 minutes for people to unpick and I'm sure every listener are going to walk is going to walk away with something of value but we won't let you go before we ask you two final questions every guest gets asked what is it that you're playing right now what's obsessing you that you're maybe playing a little bit too much when you should be off writing 800 to a th000

words of good quality content and then secondly um favorite game of all time uhhuh okay great questions I'm a big fan of this I I get asked this every now and then so my favorite game at the moment is Monster Hunter now um I am absolutely obsessed with it I think I've just broke like level 52 so I'm like a hardcore player but for me it's uh an IP I love I love Monster Hunter I love anything I'm a jrpg fan and jrpg like Japanese roleplay games are my favorite of all time so I love the fantasy element you know I love the escapism of it you know like my favorite books are all of the Rings and you know anything as you can see the poster behind me um and yeah any you know I love anything that's over the top and and monster hunter is over the top is the you know gigantic weapons gigantic monsters you know this uh with mons Hunter now it's obviously location based and I have a dog so I walk the dog

a lot and I'm playing an hour walking around the streets looking like a psycho whilst I'm tapping my phone with the dog and it it you know gives me a lot of Pokemon go Vibes because I was also massively in that and I think you know it's it's already niantic's second biggest game of all time after Pokemon go I really really love it um and they are also just starting to develop their live Ops and event strategy as we spoke about they that's super important and I think they've done it really well with limited time monsters and events and and other things that you need to do which are outside the norm so I'm thoroughly enjoying it if you are someone who likes to be outside I think it's a great companion for you my favorite game of all time and again is J RPG is my favorite genre it's got to be a toss up uh between Final Fantasy 6 and Final Fantasy 7 so you know I think you Final Fantasy 6 in my opinion was the last um one of the series on the SNES so you

know it um from a story perspective from a gameplay perspective the ATB system was never been better than in that you know the story line the character development the aspects of the game where where anything was unset and you know there's there's in that game there's characters that can die forever and that's not something that was ever done it's also the only game I've ever known where the bad guy wins and then the you know and does something very tragic and then the good guys come back um and Final Fantasy 7 what's to say is it's you know upper asong game for for anyone who's of a certain age and again they they just did the Remake which and the second part of the remake's coming out soon any game that gets a remake says a lot and I think yeah if you ask a lot of people it's in their top 10 for me it's is top one or top two I I go through phases as why Final Fantasy 6 is better than seven seven is better than six but seven for me the big thing was

you know for I was 12 or 13 when it came out on the PS1 and it was the first time you saw 3D graphics and we look back and laugh at these blocky characters now but at the time I was like mind blown this is a new universe like what is this stuff and I still have extremely fun memories of playing that the first time and I've played through it maybe a dozen times in my life since um so yeah look I I I love everything about it and I think if you've never played it you have to play it now and you can get it on switch and and a bunch of other platform so so check it out I actually want to go and play um Final Fantasy 6 and seven again now so yes absolutely job done John absolutely if you're gonna build brand you know you're good at marketing you got us going um I think you're in I I I think this is the timing for you and speaking of time well thank you for taking the time as well John I mean it was really a lot in there but that's the beauty of it um actually I'm going to

share with you the transcript of this because I'll bet you you've got about five blogs in here as well thanks Peggy any any opportunity to not write would be quite good I I'm much I feel much more comfortable talking than than writing put it that way speech to text is your friend John you know what Brian I think you've you've cracked it I think that's what I've got to do but but seriously thanks ever so much and and Brian aren't you glad we had him hugely hugely um and determined you know we we we say to a lot of guests on the show you must come back but but we really do want you to come back on John you know hopefully in around whether it's PGC whether it's your own event yeah I I really appreciate that guys and I would love to come back and I you know I extend the invite to you and and all the listeners to to join us for the Kali event at the start of next year it's a today Sean thank perfect awesome thank you very much for the time guys I really appreciate

it this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well

on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian Bago I'm Peggy and salts and that's a wrap until next [Music] week