TapNation’s Secrets to 1 Billion Downloads in Under 5 Years

[Music] hello world welcome back to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your host me Brian Bago and our Leading Lady of lifetime value in fact the roas royalty Miss Peggy insults hello Peggy it's been a good few weeks how are you it has been Brian but it's always so cheerful to have you back to be together with you on the show and you come with these phrases I just love it but it's it's good to be back it's a little bit of a sense of deja vu for me because we're back almost with the same setup we had not too long ago with the same guests but first just a little bit about your world Brian how have you been I have been very well thank you it's the school summer holidays here in Scotland we're on week six um as as you and our producer anim Mish pointed out I'm looking okay for it given that it's 6 weeks into uh my my seven-year-old sum holidays um I've

packed him off to Holiday Club I am working on this National strategy for video games for for Scotland which is coming along what you're doing Brian is so important your contribution is is huge and without a huge contribution let's come to our guest because as I said it's a bit of a deja vu in a sense and it's always great to have a company that's crossed not just one billion downloads but steaming towards two billion they have done so much not just great games but some great strategy moves so our guest today back again is Chief marketing officer at tap nation and we've had him talk about ad experience before while today he's going to talk about his own experience at tap Nation so Vincent feier it is great to have you back again and uh in such good company because I think you have some very good news for us as well so let's do it let's let it rip excited to be

here Brian Peggy thanks so much for having me again uh three weeks ago was super exciting to be on board with with the hboard team as well and and getting a bit more podcast out of the way and and it's great to uh connect with you to see the summaries keeping up in time of activity it's uh more intense than ever for us still with with lot of news happening lot of things happening at tap Nation so there's no much holiday to be honest there's no much pose for the for the hardworking people out there uh as especially when we are we're still on a super gross phase and and have big ambition for this end of the year and next year to come so uh yeah super excited to come here open up a bit more about myself open up a bit more about topn uh who we are what what we have been so far and and uh and what are the next milestone for us in the coming uh years and and the end of this year which for sure will uh will keep us at top of the of the news and and and and a good changing and a good evolving experience

for everyone you are of course at tap Nation you started in monetization now you're leading UA monetization creative ASO team of 30 people and a company of total 80 staff acquiring UA hero I wrote about it in Forbes we wrote about it on Pocket Gamer we're just hearing so much about tap Nation so how's it all fit together what what is what is um everything comes together at a point and you have 80 in staff is that still where you are are you still hiring more we are closer to uh 90 people as we speak now there's been a few more hires in in the last to three months uh as as we grow the team try to build a solid uh structure as well on the tech product side and as you say uh we have you acquired you a hero but now we need to finish also the product so um team are complimenting and and we are growing with more more games so it's important to complement so you're about 90 people now what what where are you hiring I'm

just curious because I've heard for example that uh creative directors and creative is really big um design game design is huge where where did you make your hires product has been an important part in the last two three months um as you know hyper casual we could let uh most of the studio handle on the product and road map and development side nowadays as we switch to more hybrid casual uh casual game um and in the last latest test acquisition at the beginning of this year we need to strengthen and solidify our internal product team so we have uh Alex CA who joined us uh as as a head of product is a solid profile who's been working in the past with Studio like roio or or scopely so it's really an addition and help us like shine out there show the pivot we're doing uh in in diversification outside of appic casual and then as we getting also more solid product you know we need more a

bit more QA tester people uh we did have couple of hirers on the creative front as well because creative was we know is is very Central and crucial in keeping all your games uh up to the trend we see the new trends with AI we see the new chain with ugc uh playable is taking more and more space so you need definitely people to complement on that um as well on as on the UF front uh you get those uh bigger uh IP share kind of games with casual games so our team as well need to level up on the user acquisition front so recently have uh a new user acquisition senior UA manager Marina who joined us from mini clip so really you see we're really like leveling up our talent as well from triaa studio and that's that's the path for us to uh to succeed and Achieve with our goals um as well as uh solidifying the rest of the uh developer uh and and live up steam has been been important so a

bit about all division you know are are strengthening on that Frontier in term of new hires so welcome to them I think it's an exciting Journey uh and still have a very family sized team at up nation and we are we're excited to have them keep help us keep building the future of that Nation that's fantastic and in a period where there's such uncertainty um and so many layoffs in the game sector I think it's a testament to what what tap nation is doing so tell us Vincent you the companies and evolving and the same goes for the marketplace um has there been any kind of significant shift in your approach to marketing you know even with the move from hyper casual to hybrid casual what's what's been changing for you so for sure you know it's becoming harder and more complex to run UA um scan came many years ago hopefully they're improving a little bit their uh features for attribution uh for the scan conversion schema conversion value so it's it's getting there slowly to help help us get back onto iOS um new players

are talking as well to open up back iOS I'm thinking of meta for example so hopefully uh it will get back interestingly but uh in term of diversification uh in term of um of how we can find new gross bucket um there is more and more UA Channel and UA sources out there in the market so for sure one of the uh flexibility of tap nation has been to be able to test uh run and confirm new potential UA uh Channel um and as it gets loaded uh all for World rewarded Network C per engagement Network have definitely be one of our UA grow Source uh and and it's been uh it's been of great help because you know some games nowadays depending on the vertical how they are built uh and the competition uh those kind of Engagement Network are definitely growing in term of space growing in of share and uh and

we see that they have uh they have a good potential out there to stay because we understand that more and more gamer and users nowadays want to be rewarded for the engagement want to be committed for the engagement so uh it has good pocket and we saw a few new players entering the market and having very fast growth uh on that type of uh of UA potential uh social as well is is very important as we mentioned with the uh gross fast growing of Tik Tok uh and and ugc content it's important out there to use well those sources so maximizing the use of the such creatives uh and such uh social channel has been also important for us um and then as I mentioned hiring special profiles uh with more backgrounds on casual Games IP games uh and uh and and focusing more on the data you know uh uh as we're looking into longer break even longer retention games it's getting very uh important for us uh

to um to build those team train them but as well like gain gain some new knowledge and new learnings from much bigger Studio who have been there on those type of games for for a very long time um so yeah and uh and so today how we do is how we used to do UA before with more like hyper casual game and 30 days break even today we're looking at much longer temp forecast and projection so not only one or two years but we're looking into three to four years uh lifetime of a game how we uh build the p&l around such game and help us create the development and the product team around those game um so that help us to hire the right profile make the right investment and know that it's not just a short-term gain but really long-term investment long-term production road map uh Improvement of such gam so we're we're ready to sacrifice a little bit of the early months let's say margin of

profitability because in the long term we're building a solid product that's going to be here lasting for three four years and and that's where we're looking at a much uh longer uh window yeah so it's now three four years a window for a hybrid casual game as opposed to what for a what what what I want to say here is that um usually with Hyper casual will be a bit more dependent and and looking at one twoyear prediction forecast project uh with much solid retention IP share of games now we're able to build pnl and forecast model uh up three four years ahead uh even longer in order to uh to make the Strategic investment make the Strategic road map processes because uh we know that those games are going to be here for a longer time yes product yeah product is also marketing how does that work with you because you said yourself you're hiring a lot of people focused on products you're looking I would imagine

at product-led growth but product when it works really well it goes back in marketing so what does that look like a tap Nation where one is sort of feeding into the other exactly and it's true that uh we used to be very marketing focused and then um the product will follow nowadays is getting a little bit more balance or at least shifting um product is really becoming Central because we are making the product for our users uh and for high quality users for much higher retention and then that's for our marketing strategies also adapting to this uh and and the way we are promoting our games where we're baying uh where we're spending to acquire new users um so if you want to look at those quality users we opening up opening up more towards as I mentioned social dsps was also um the way we run uh the marketing and the creative is also having an

impact uh and we see that uh uh playables the diversification of creative the game play you want to show the IP you want to show um so we're taking much more the product the final games and that's what is uh uh diversifying our creative strategy so how are we looking at maybe longer Break Even but at the same time looking higher quality users by demonstrating the game as much as possible by demonstrating all the features the upgrad uh the iip possibilities that they have into the games uh and trying to make it the most attractive as possible um there's a lot of new techniques as well that we're observing with retargeting network how we create uh deep linking into the game so you know those are the type of users you can re-engage uh and you want to redirect at a certain moment at a certain point in the game that they have uh already reached or where they were about to reach the next level so uh uh all those

strategy uh create a much open new possibilities that we didn't have before with Hyper casual that uh really open up the um the chances to engage or create new engagement or re-engage with existing user for example it's clearly working Vincent because as we said at the top of the program um in terms of growth you've reached a billion downloads last year four years after you were founded which is kind of impressive so um do how do you you attribute that success is it is it this you know seamless kind of mix between products and marketing what's you know where do you think they the success has come from maybe also I can jump back and talk about our our culture and our value as we said T Nation was was launching in in uh 2019 late 2019 and very quickly the company uh was very minimal investment uh saw a fast growth uh with our first game ice cream or guess their answer Ser

for example that are still there that are still very much at the top in term of Revenue in term of profitability um and and that was defined by by our funer and CEO Ave and the funding team that has been here very early members uh a young team but a very determined and and ambitious team so today we like to Define our value as peace uh piracy first uh so Paris is finding the smart way to go to your goal getting the the shortcut and not following the kind of processes or or big lines but rather thinking smart uh and Thinking Fast to uh to achieve what other people will not do in the same methodology maybe a bit less I would say um uh clerical or religious way but getting there to the point of piracy Equity is also very important is that we give a chance to all our team members uh we want to be as much as a transparent and flat organization as possible possible so everybody's uh there out there in the

office reable with myself um it's very important that everybody feels on the same level and the same opportunity the ambition is really what's driving us as well so really sharing our goal sharing our ambition of a fast and and grow and and sharing that with the rest of the team uh transparently has been really motivating everyone uh creativity is definitely also for the sea very important because we need to renew self all the time uh as we know uh and as we see as we run creative as well creative fatig is important but creativity remining uh the type of games and and the type of where we can reach to our users has been has been key and finally Effectiveness you know um we don't want over people we don't want over processes but rather go straight to the point being effective uh and and being taking action as soon as we focus we see an issue we we we take time to Deep dive

on it so I think that's the luck and that's how we remain a a small organization it allows us to be much more uh adaptable uh faster to answers and and that's what really has been driving uh our identity uh in the last in the last four years um and and that's how finding the right Studio having a small team working with uh Asian Studio European Studios uh help us to really Source uh the the right the right titles and and grow quickly as well as I mentioned uh running U aggressively uh being very smart in finding the new UA Channel sources uh as well as as being good at improving the LTV and the monetization of our game uh in term of Revenue and keeping maintaining those games rather than hyper casual often see a downtrend so all that combined and the determination uh the team engagement and and team motivation has has made us really uh this this billion download so I think

it's a whole quidos and and dedication of each team members that been participating toward the same similar goal and sharing those value with with every team member here the next bu downloads with the move to hyper casual and the ongoing change in the market um the next Buon downloads do you think they're going to be more difficult to come by it's uh it's indeed partly true because um we now diversifying and not only look at the hyper casual high volumes but look also more at the uh quality of games and retention so over a period of time since we uh we have three new games and we talk can talk about them later as I mentioned like RPG game with hero adventure and here making Tycoon that are 50% IP and worldling which is a a world puzzle game with about 10 15% I AP but a much longer retention and much longer break given we're looking more at the high quality

users uh and targeting a specific segment of users versus Hyper casual is very much for the mass uh very much about volumes uh so here we keep our existing hyper casual title but in the mix of new games that are were publishing uh this year and and in and the coming years we'll see a bit more of those uh of those games so of course this diversification would potentially slow down a little bit uh the next billion download but we are very much on P to reach it I think sometimes uh mid uh mid of next year or early next year uh so we're keeping our DNA of H casual you know we we believe there's still room there for hypercasual to exist because otherwise we're going to be like the old uh very large audience players spending their time you know and and and there still ads there you know the the big players the Triple A guys uh that are that are the big I guys they need to spend their us somewhere they need to show ads and and if you've got an only I AP game you're not showing ad so hyper

casual is where you can find those users that are spending times on the side of big big casual games yeah retention is what you're focused on share a little bit lift a little bit of the lid about how you are reaching these retention metrics because um sometimes it's about the game progression sometimes it's just about the communication that you attribute it maybe to you know nudges and notifications at the at the right time because let's face it you know loyal loyal users are are made not born how are you making them loyal and and increasing your retention I think there's definitely the product first is key uh to play with the retention so how do we engage them further uh with specific contents uh with live ups with timed events uh push notification indeed allows you to re-engage those typ of user to remind them of of the great content constantly updating and refreshing as

well adding new content to the game so the top user can can keep spinning as well but a lot of little tricks uh in term of uh temporary or promoted offer as well uh creating some more challenges creating real or fake multiplayer modes are also important there to create some sort of competition and and a wish to to come back and then um with wling for example uh one of our latest game required uh it's a kind of daily uh W type of of game so of course you have this kind of calender completion Target U it's a little bit like uh you want to complete your daily meditation and you've got an incentive of of doing it candy it's the same with with wling you know you want to keep challenging your friend and you want to see your calendar getting full weekly um offering some sort of Welcome Back reward also very uh very important and very fruitful for RPG

games in a sense and then for the other type of hyper casual games it's it's also playing with the ad pressure you know um so how do we get cleaner ads less intrusive ads um and and this topic we covered like three weeks ago when we had the head quality uh uh podcast um how do we make sure that uh we monetize them well with ads but those ads are not churning them too fast uh or too quickly so really the quality of Partners uh the frequency of ads and and the ad template as well as we discuss how how long does it take for the users to be able to exit the ads uh those are old all that together combined in addition with the product road map the product development and stickiness uh of our progression into the game is is what's helping us to uh Target towards those longer term retention and and finally be able as well to invest into users that will stay

there longer might not be break even from the first or second months and will be taking longer time but in the end are are sticky users and are type of users that will allow us uh to grow and and maintain the strong user base over time you mentioned the winback reward a reward for coming back um be really interested to know what that looks like a bit more because I've been talking to a lot of people in the industry and they're saying you know we have to get our head around how we retarget and welcome someone back because if you make it not dissimilar to what it was before then it's like I'm just coming back and it's the same old same old so it's not just like having that moment and that reward but it has to be different the experience has to be different you're winning me back to something that's not the same experience that's what I've heard we need to do what are your thoughts and what are you actually doing I'm curious creating a custom experience

uh creating a different experience every time as you say as you're sending a reward is starting to be more complex uh things that we we're starting to do uh in Co in collaboration with the product and the live upside and how do we create and segment those type of users uh when they engage with their welcome back reward how do we diversify that content and that's uh that's actually requiring uh a lot of data work you know segment how do we track the different event into our games how we create bucket and attribute you know you have uh true MMP uh you can attribute event progression so how do we measure those event progression and make sure that when we welcome back your user we attribute that reward that is linked to where he has been already in the game as he reached level five level 10 or 15 what purchases he made uh what kind of content has locked so the reward associated with that so we're getting more granular but for those type of User it's worth it you

know as soon as a user becomes a paying users you you really get the time to segment that type of users and and create that that custom uh experience and and in term of custom experience I think it starts also of course welcoming back the user and tracking back in game but it starts also from the beginning you know nowadays uh we're starting to really look at the creative uh interaction and the creative quality uh and how and the user quality based on the creative you know what are we showing on the creative are we showing more of a IP content unlocking purchase type of mechanism that can show the users that they can upgrade faster in the game how we showing more uh higher battle or less Focus I creative and that will drive a different type of user into the game as well as the passes in between the app install and the creative is also the landing page on the Apple or Google Play Store and and today with the custom product pages you're

getting very much the possibility to tailor and customize the experience you're showing to your user and that is having a big impact for us you know those custom product pages so based on ABC creative we're going to show them a same screenshot uh landing page on the Play store so that they find it in correlation with the type of ads they have been seeing and are much likely to install so that helps us increase or install rate or CTR as well so we can start to customize the whole user Jun from The Click from the ads impression to the store landing page with those uh custom product pages uh that are showing specific moment of the game specific colors specific level compared to what they saw and make them feeling uh that they're continuing to see the same experience until uh the game play now we're working towards the even a final step is if a user have seen this creative how do we bring him to a specific point in the game even if it's the first time opening or a specific

user level so how we start tailoring the the the first ftu the first time on boarding and and user experience with a slightly different game experience uh based on what they saw you got to bring them from the creative to a specific part of the game I guess that's deeping right yeah that's deep looking correct so that plays a lot for for retargeting strategy you know uh you left here you have this uh this weapon and and this wallet uh still living there why don't you upgrade this weapon why don't we reach this level that you left uh at a certain point so they're really arriving at a at a tailor moment in the game where they feel like we feel it's the most engaging moment and they are more likely to keep replaying the game uh also with some specific contents uh are rewarded Vincent can I can I flip that and and look at this from a monetization point of view because you talk about segmentation and it's like that retention and valuing your players you

know you were the VP of monetization and we know we speak to so many people on the podcast who are doing different things with monetization there are so many new options out there now from Brands brand takeovers to offer walls and everything in between what's tap Nation looking at and how are you using this kind of hybrid monetization to really maximize that that engagement that retention with your players there's definitely two ways is there's the I would say the heavy had monetization strategy which which fits very well with a hyper casual game and on the other side there's more the uh hybrid casual uh casual game strategy where the monetization also is becoming much more complement in with the IP uh so it's it's kind of two approach uh but starting with the hyper casual and and and kind of heavy ad monetization um indeed my background has been like for for 10 years in the ad based monetization so I've seen few companies where on on a mediation side as well

where I was able to really uh observe and see all the trends uh from the top publisher out there in the market and that's also partly why also tap Nation uh wanted me on board to help build that ad monetization team so I could finally play with all uh the learning and apply all the uh the strategy that I've observed and Witnesses out there in the industry but um in my first two years at TN one of our strategy was really to diversify the ad Revenue uh format and sources so we've been very early tester and adopter and and scaling for example the audio ads and in-game ads uh that you can see out there in the market so the in-game ads are the kind of ensing immersive billboard ads uh that are very easy to add on a 3D games on a runner for example or on a driving uh racing car range uh because they like as a billboard and those are interesting uh especially in tier one countries where you can see a a good complimentary

Revenue without impacting at all the user experience and even creating a more real world uh uh environment audio ads have also been very uh very powerful for us because even on a 2d games uh you can just display a small icon square icon uh on the top corner and play the ads during the game play um so that's been we saw that there was no impact on the user retention uh and it was very complimentary Revenue so we observed for the top Gams and GEOS somewhere between 5 to 8% of share of wallet coming from AIO ads and that's the same in term of uh in term of LTV uplift yeah for sure uh and and you can play with the frequency and I think it also creates somehow a sort of live environment because now you're playing your games let's say ice cream for example game that we have you in your shop and you hear that kind of Starbucks ad in the background so it makes your shop very Lively very much radio like uh

style environment so those are today kind of solid uh solid additional format um and as a step as you mentioned the brand the direct brand is also now important I think we've reached the size U of A Studio that can sell and have in enough volume to talk directly to Brands uh ad direct advertisers and agencies I was in the can lions uh last June uh for for second year now and it's been very fruitful you know we can see those Advertiser those Brands like getting more and more excited with gaming I think esport Evolution web tree uh Evolution as well as the the high adoption of some large platform we talk about Roblox or fortnite is really making now the brand willing to reach that huge audience and interact there so we really want to position ourself as the same version for mobile game uh some of the big players out there uh on mobile already talking with brand already creating some sort of

Partnerships and and we we BR ourself with McDonald for example directly on ingame ads we work with L'Oreal uh on video ads and they we've been like very successful compan in France or in the US and so we opening up our inventory uh on classic ad format I would say like in game video ads or banner ads to increase the competition increase our average CPM so we can have strong uplift for the time of the company in the given country country but on top of that we also want to make the final step of a more immersive ads like what you can see on the big platform that I just mentioned previously we want to customize the game and the whole user experience so in ice cream instead of being in a random shop you'll be entering ha andas shop you'll be pouring some ha andas flavor uh on hend Das cone so so it's it's a month or two months takeover uh we can track the number of impression we can trct a number of unique users who can create

some redirection as well uh and and we have several Brands we're talking to at the moment uh Red Bull uh piz who are willing to create some sort of integration uh in our games as as a customization of our game and I think that's the final way you want a brand and the users to interact together is not just a brand pushing an ad or getting a reward uh towards the moment but it's really the whole game play the whole game experience is now centralized around the ad where you play with the product you play with the brand and improve your uh your brand Affinity so those are definitely strong leverage of growing or or monetization and on the IP uh and and Casual games front we're also finding some other ways to complement how maybe can we sell our data point uh to some of the users uh how do we create those kind of custom integration that are opening up a different set of Advertiser than just gaming but also Brands advertisers as I mentioned um and then it's a lot

about the the testing but I can go a bit later into that so how we customize our I AP offering in order to match better each user games Brands they belong together but they're not together yet I don't know what it is they're just not not in Rhythm they're not in that dance they're not in that Groove and one of the reasons is also when you talk to the brands it's the ad experience but also it's about the data now you are doing both you have an understanding of the journey you have an understanding of the data so you're you're filling in in both of those but another one is consent very very concerned that people are consenting and opting in I've spoken with some people in admon and they're like no cmps it's not good it's impacting our revenues in a negative way because you have that opt out you're into experience you're into testing how are you dealing with a C m p and what are you seeing we we started experimenting with the

consent with Apple at for sure and that had a big impact on on OB on iOS uh some games see 20% opin while we're luy for some of the games to see 60% opin but it's still 60% is still very low from originally when you tend to be automated consent now is gdpr uh tcf2 uh requirement coming out you also have to adapt all your European users into a new type of consent into more fair consenting methodology obviously all publisher used to have 99% 100% of consent because you could show or this forc the users into accepting uh noway since a year there's a lot of different cmps that came in and we're uh we've been seeing quite a few different partners paid one free ones out there in the market we ourself May tested three different cmps to get an idea of the user experience the price but also more

especially the concentrate um so we ended up going out with uh Google uh Google CMP I think it was kind of a easy customizable one um you could um of course it was free as well so that played a little bit in the balance even though the other one are not too expensive uh but in term of stability of integration and stability of concentr across two Tre Gams where we tested we have observed a good uh 85 to 95% concentrate on gdpr uh so I think of course we can customize and give the users the possibility to accept all or manage but not refuse of course or decline directly I think that's part of the tricks to maximize your concentrate and and uh and yeah so far it's been let's say we minimize the impact so you still have 10 10% of users who will not consent to it and can have an impact will have an impact on ecpm uh generally between yeah 10 to 30% uh lower but

luckily we kept those users very minimal amount so uh I would say that's that was a fair experience people tend to see cmps on the web online and kind of know the template of Google that is widely used so it creates sort of trust uh I don't know if it's fair or if it should be uh but uh but in a way that that's that help us observe a good a good conversion and and acceptance rat yeah so it's not 100% but it's not the 2030 that we were hearing about what was it a year year and a half ago the horror stories that it was dropping off a cliff um and you did your testing and it and it paid off so um obviously you're growing um demands on companies on Studios is growing we just talked about CMP or trying to court the brands what about tap Nation what is is your main target over the next 12 months in terms

of player growth Revenue engagement growth retention give us an idea so maybe we can call you on it in 12 months no I'm just kidding we won't do that but but you see it what's your target tap nation has really ambitious targets you know we want accelerated growth uh one of our key criteria as well is profitability so how do we maintain um High R in start finding the good balance between rust and revenue but High rust in term of profitability and and and not only gross margin but also company profitability at the end of the year this is really what's going to determine the value of a company so we are leaning towards that so remaining a lean team agile team um but in term of gross yeah from last year uh I think the goal is uh this year to reach 20 to 30% increase of Revenue and and for next year our Target is ready to uh double our our iida and

and and Company margin so I think we're in a good position now with strong acquisition as I mentioned hero making Tycoon hero Adventure wling that are games that have a solid uh future potential and we with who doubling like you know one of those game we just multiply by three the UA between uh Q2 and Q3 starts so we're really getting ready here to to boost to boost the the revenue from that side and and where is our gross laying is obviously by diversification of game as I mentioned new uh channel uh new typology of game and typology of users but also we're looking also at all the alternative possibilities so alternative stores you hear about yway xiaomi you hear about Amazon firos that's been opening and that is growing surely there uh it's it's also an interesting source of additional Revenue you hear about about HTML 5 and web store how do we show mini

games into uh into chat apps um and how do we display our games on all the main web portal uh and and and content provider uh YouTube is opening YouTube playable for example uh we have seen uh we have seen opportunity growing in China as well so we're positioning ourself out there um so yeah it's it's important as well to have this kind of holistic and overall picture now a couple of our games squ um ship to Nintendo console as well so we're getting a little bit outside of mobile even though our Focus remains strongly on mobile so yeah compan is ready to in the next two years to double overall Revenue uh double uh the profitability of the company uh while structuring the team with more some around quality product production and and qualified developer team uh that's what's going to bring us ready to to the pass of targets we have uh for the coming uh the coming three to four years fantastic we we cannot fault your ambition that and if

any company out there can do it it certainly sounds like you guys are well positioned it's it's definitely been a tough past year or two years with the especially this year with the macro uh macroeconomy environment as we know the season it has been very strong in q1 and Q2 so ecpm are down and and scalability scale has been impacted a little bit but uh our resilience uh the fact that we remain agile and small team uh and the proability make us like ready when the the start is getting back uh when when it's recovering from I think I have good hope for recovering as soon as September and 424 and the next year seems bit more promising hopefully uh we're ready and and and and and in the starting blocks to to get boosted and and the overall team behind us yes all the different Alternatives that you're looking into um that some people aren't you know taking as seriously they're saying yes it exists but you're jumping in there with both feet it's almost like yeah you're

almost like a microcosm of your own Olympics Vincent going for we try we move ahead and then after we judge but we don't take much time to take decision uh with overlay management process so that's that's the way of everybody keeping food on the ground hands on the product and the industry and and we're learning thanks to you as well guys you know all those podcast and and those very fruitful industry event is is everywhere where we can learn from each other peers and we understand where the opportunity lays uh but of course like good game is what always going what's going to drive grow so you know we keeping on acquisition outside of publishing as I mentioned and that's an important Point actually I should not forget is the acquisition you know all those latest Tre Al I mention or I PG game or wling they were acquired from existing companies you know there's a lot of Studio out there or publisher out there that are either struggling financially or struggling to do the right user acquisition or struggling to do the right monetization or don't have enough resources to engage in the next 12 months road map for the product and

that's that's how publishing and acquisition team is doing great job of sourcing all those Studios and and and which really transforming into a a more of m&a uh let's say publisher now where we're able to do hybrid between publishing and acquisition and and increase the number of games increase the possibility of games that we are reaching and injesting into our portfolio and working hand in hand with those existing studio in transition or in keeping growing their title with with potential own out there so Vincent it's thank you so much it has been an absolute pleasure and we could go on but sadly we're going to have to bring things to an end now because you were on the podcast a very few episodes ago we've already asked and know um your favorite current game and your game of all time so I'm going to ask two different questions um only slightly but H hopefully they'll get you thinking what was your biggest disappointment in gaming and are there any games coming up that you're looking forward to it's a good question um you know I've I've been

following uh some of the new release uh that are out there uh closely but I I need to think again for this question to be more accurate so uh let me uh let me refres briefly or maybe I'll give you a a quick recording uh post post the interview because there's there's tons of things that I need to follow up and and then recently I've been playing a bit less game so so I guess just wrap it up and say you know wow Vincent I'm speechless and that takes a lot Brian can attest to that um the goals in mind uh the work with Brands the integration with the brands has me very very excited so guess who's coming back Brian I can imagine I think we're going to have to Peggy it's it's really clear there's so much more here we've only scratched the surface so um yes Vincent as soon as the Summer's over and Paris is a little less crazy um we would love to have you back we would love to you know pick your brains

a little further I was excited as well to be with you here today guys thanks so much for giving us the chance to give a little bit more light and insight into uh what Happ na here and where we're heading next so always a joy to participate thanks so much and and a good Summer Olympic summer to you too guys this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter @ PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website site if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can

find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future showes and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future