Gamesforum Live Special w/ Adam & Gus: Rewarded play, AI in game development. Are UA managers lazy?

you can go to these companies and say look I have a you know here's my here's my receivables I'm going to generate this much money so Advance me on first G Fe but the other side of this is that these games are profitable within like three days so you could also do that on the marketing spend so you can basically fund yourself on both ends without really needing heavy amounts of cash like you would e in the gaming space for for more yeah I'm just still curious at the scale like how much scale you know because at some point like you need some kind of a buffer to kind of keep you running this is no [ __ ] gaming podcast two and a half gamer sharing actionable insights dropping Knowledge from our day-to-day user acquisition game design and AD monetization jobs we are definitely not discussing the latest industry news but having so much fun let's not forget this is a 4 a.m. conference discussion Vibe so let's not take it too seriously intro okay now everybody my name is m I'm Robert we are your hosts for today and we have got G and we have

Adam over here okay so let's start with the actual intro obviously this is a live podcast again from the conference it's live it's live yes it's very live very very live we have scheps over here it's fine let's start with gas intro and then Adam you will get the intro and then we'll see what happens as usual as usual cool sure hey the [ __ ] are you hell yes we know each other for a while true we work together actually I know awesome uh UA admon mostly UA uh nowadays very Ai and [ __ ] uh I've been doing mball game marketing for like 10 years in various different genres we kind of did midcourt together that's true yeah almost Forex as well almost yeah almost almost I've actually been in a hyper casual studio so they also did Casual together yeah we did no hybrid hybrid HB hybrid yeah now hybrid so [ __ ] I have work with

talking about gaming right and two and a half of yeah we're two and a half of you perfect and we're still talking about so summary if you see that I have like 50 game launches is because 35 of them were hyper casual that's the godic yeah that's about me how about you um my name is Adam jaffi I'm working in game for a while got my own Studio here in Barcelona for the last three years called Mak Studio we do first and third party game development we're sort of focused at the moment in that kind of rewarded gaming space and gamification but uh yeah man I'm sort of OG in this space been working in gaming for companies like FAS Champ City social point you name it I probably have done something with them and uh yeah also kind of a conference wh that year just we all are I'm not I don't do work here people like oh what did you you this what's your goal conference for you and I'm like well it's I'm here I was invited so obviously people should be happy that I'm here that's fine

I'm literally here because people invited me to be here to professional coner go ex like that is what I need to have in this not speaker not I guess if you have the word speaker you're technically a professional conference score but I think about that you're here for people too you know meat me me they meet you you go to some of the and like no no why not because I was outside people want to talk to me yeah like it's always the case like what your go the C this confidence like I don't have a call what it mean how can you justify me like first of all I'm My Own Boss I can justify whatever whatever the [ __ ] I want I want to just meet people that's it yeah yep yep long are the days of having to like justify are you guys doing so we make it kind of game and first of all we've made a bunch of different types but the the games that you're referring to from your is uh they need to have ads so we do a kind of game which which is um a variation of rewarded games so Mor games are you know you see these

types of products where you you can you about to witness very special moment wow here you go a very special yeah moment size oh my God what everyone is here for get go here John and Josh with the guys work they did the work work for you I'll one okay great Cheers Cheers the of Life Cheers Cheers salute cheers cheers for those listening guys are just cheering with Margaritas anyway rewarded so rewarded games interesting topic basically what we do is players come in and we incentivize them to play our game by offering them real money payouts right but there's no inet purchase so the so there's no cash uh transaction

there which is why we can kind to go outside of the world of gambling so we're not part of rfg we're not skill-based none of that stuff like prop how do you get them out of mobile then how do you get them out of mobile like why do they pay if the entry fin is in mobile no they don't pay they don't pay so we basically monetization think about your offer walls or think about you know any game that has ads in there right so essentially that's what we're doing we're offering the user some kinde of value for actually going on to take this prodct wait a second time up I install your game it's from Mobile store yes store Google Play yes where's the money part how do I get to it you don't you don't get to the money I oh how do you you get to the money how do you how do you make money as a player sorry so basically you come into the game you're playing the game you've uh you're scratching cards or you're with the slot machine all of a sudden you you get a winning card or a winning you know whatever amount of money and we say hey if you want to claim this you you must go performance matches so it's basically it's a kind of incentivized product go where once again go to an offer wall watch an ad complete a survey give us information pii whatever it is so we building up this this sort of infrastructure around sending players

out and and so you give him a quest for ads exactly and they and they do that so it's it's the gamification of AD monetization the gamification of you know first party data collection okay so I watched 20 rewarded ad whatever Felix's whole portfolio I just did that so where's the money or how they get the money what's the next step so then You' you've accumulated some amount of value we take that value we and then we deliver to you in the form of that card you we allow you to reveal it then you say hey you've got 25 cents available if you'd like to go cash out go to PayPal toay or whatever and how do then direct the user to that link you know like I'm talking you know where I'm so PayPal uh there's PayPal there's tremendous there's a bunch of companies that do rewarded payoffs for you know big companies all of the guys that in they're in the worlded space you know if you look at like your ad shows or your fluence or whatever so they all have a pay that's the technical infrastructure behind I'm still at the point like how do you translate the user you know you know what I'm heading basically it's it's like any payout it's

within the app so it feels like a native solution so you come into the game you're saying I about $5 Cash Out click the cash out button and say put in your PayPal account they submit the clan or they submit the payout we approve you it's like revers like you Apple pay or whatever like stores you would like put your account yeah this time they put their account so they never leave the app never I thought that at some point there were like browsering whatever no no no there is method to the B not that's really interesting so what we see is what we see is interesting you know if you think about at came what was that like 3 years ago [ __ ] everybody up with iOS now we have prais sandbox that are going to like you know and cpms are declining now you even have other things like you know the move to biders and you know you just need to find a work around that's it this the work but this is the work around why because when you come to me and you're say like I want to get paid out you say yes say okay except the tracking perers give me email address give me phone number give me all this inform and they're like of course yeah yeah yeah and uh so we get to kind of so then what

would we have we have a very rig traffic set that we can then you know so your cpms are typically higher because we know who you are uh we have better cpis we know you know we can actually do behavioral targeting within our own user base so it's an interesting point any anyway so it's so so you completely circumvent any kind of you know the usual store fees blah blah blah yeah there are because there is no think about it like this I'm pay I'm giving you money to play my game yeah but but actually you're giving money to play Felix yeah yeah because the thing is is that up until this up until this point right you know when we think I mean think about the idea of a device graph right like I know you have played in all these products and you're worth all this money you don't know that I do in fact actually as a game developer I don't Felix knows it because he's not the Adon he's he's the one he's the one who's got the CPM understanding right so all I'm doing is saying you're a heavy spender of games you should benefit from that beyond the fact that you get an offer that is now rather than getting $5 you're getting a $100 offer because you're a big spender I'm actually telling you you're worth a lot of money

to me so when you go and you watch his ad and it's a $600 CPM and you just earn me three bucks for that view take take $ to that and now you got a look hatch so you keep that that process going that's does it work a scale yeah that's that's my yes I think what kind of skill are we talking about I mean if you think about the Reed right now there they're currently generating about 1.5 billion in spend annually between the companies so we're not at the same scale as your you're you're gaming you know that's 26 billion I think at the this category is growing year over year but what's interesting is that because I'm the one taking the risk I'm the one paying out so typical think of incent tra right from like half away from 10 years ago right good old days yeah good old days of like boost and whatever so but you come in you say I'm in I'm an Advertiser let's buy some intent traffic I I start going well it's only on that install typically or maybe some post install event but the whole responsibility is placed on on The Advertiser to basically convert that

now the publisher stepping in and saying no actually I'm rewarding that player for for playing your game but I'm rewarding what part of the CPA I generate from you so I actually have an incentive to like to to make sure that a it's not fraud because if I'm paying fraud you're going to drop me right he mentioned was like play to fra no so that's funny you talk about play to earn right but that at the end of the day that's what you know people would talk about that like we've been doing these games for a few years now they would come up and say what do you do like I'm in the player r space be like you're describing what I'm not exactly you can play and sometimes earn what year you can actually earn so it's how do you Arbitrage between payout and the payout schedules that you get from M networks which is net 30 net 60 right and you have to give it instantly to users and that yeah you very open for like fraud and so yeah I mean there's a I mean I worked in casino for a long time when I was living in Israel and so yeah fraud is a big part of it you know so it's it

take you know you have anti fraud measures but what's SS about fraud is that it usually looks like fraud I mean you work in you know you know what marketing is like there's too good to be true it's always too good to be true it's always frud so if you're like oh all of a sudden uh one guy tried to cash out a ton of money not to mention by the way the cash is automatic right so we still have to review we look how long how long for cashing get wasin 24 hours it it it can be faster you know generally speaking but you have someone manually reviewing each of them it can get to that point but eventually if you get to a place where you have for example uh we do a face vertification you have to upload an ID once that's done then the be real how do you manage that Arbitrage right because you get paid net 30 net 60 in cash no but it's also what's nice is that that's that because because these because these businesses you're you're you have a guaranteed payout for the most part you can go to a you can go to a Bravo you can go to something you know well notm because they just sold but uh you know um you go to these companies

and say look I have a you know here's my here's my receivables I'm going to generate this much money so Advance me I'm first and Fe but the other side of this is that these games are profitable within like three days so you could also do that on the marketing spend so you can basically fund yourself on both ends without really needing heavy amounts of cash like you would need in the gaming space for for moreberry yeah I'm just still curious at the scale like how much scale you know because at some point like you need some kind of a buffer to kind of keep you running like how big the buffer talking days it's if it's in free days so the the thing is is that the standard Arbitrage method works here why because I mean think about it a different way let's look at like a liftoff or an apple of it's essentially the same process except that rather than have you know mod your ads of other games it's just sitting in one product which we are then using to basically shift you know users into other products it's kind of like a super affiliate concept if you if you will but we have a better way of targeting and and cheaper to acquire users cheaper to acquire yeah because when you put in the well for example we we've done we did a

deal with a casino and for So Real Money gaming real wor Casino yeah real real Casino put Casino in the same sentence already already smelling weird so what's interesting is that I tell you as as a user I say Hey listen I want to love some money by playing games they're like absolutely so then they so that that automatically drops CPA CPI down 20 30% or more but that's not 30% on a typical Casino user that's on like that type of user which is already I mean our average CPA Blended CPI excuse me was like [ __ ] in the US yeah with that it comes down even to 60 cents so it's like hyper casual territory when it comes to CPI but you can but what's interesting is you can take those your creative oh the creatives are bad and yeah B crazy to back to product by so the same same thought that so the

creatives are the are the so the there was the creatives are awful it's basically just like one person you know like get money do this thing record yes recording middle of recording it no we're really AR record we really [ __ ] trying to get into everything man we need no we don't want your [Laughter] rest I love you ad and R totally not sponsored yeah that's um what we talking about uh terrible creatives the cre are really basic it's like so what these companies are doing is you guys yeah but you remember that was like maybe two three years ago billi no that's what's interesting if I tell you you're going to win ,000 you won't you won't click it's to crazy yeah but you can earn five bucks per minute everybody's like oh

yeah yeah I say you can earn two three a minute or you can earn $5 like instantly like people like I want to earn five bucks right now and generally speaking the people who are playing the games you know they're not they're not wealthy you know for them $2 $3 $10 like it's it's meaningful it's material value for them and so and then the ads themselves are just garbage just they J they're the worst just like any worked on the real money gaming apps before no that's different real money is different these apps fake it's it's the worst they but like the creative kind of concepts are very similar to what what I've done before the game earn five five bucks in a minute or yeah yeah 10 bucks now Med like it's like literally like the real play to earn in a way yeah but but as I said like it's supported by like a Social Casino genre cin yeah but it can be anything I mean we built we built a Bruce lcer foric we buil like a flick Golf game I mean we can you can skill

based you can go skill based and anything I mean as long as the thing is people are coming are coming to make money so as long as the game isn't standing in their way you can gamify process by saying like here's the thing you need to do but there are products that have been typical in the space where the rewarded product is so convoluted that you're like you're pay out of then you have to buy this ticket they get you a raffle they get you something at the end of the week and prle like [ __ ] that you know this too far in the f I want some money now and then they're like you don't get it and of course for it's not real it's fake and then that you're done then you're done ex what is the what is the info you're running here on these users like how many ads are there watching on average many is itent on a daily basis yeah like a in like what's ad rate roughly like and what's in you like say the two metrics that we always talk about I don't I don't know the the but I can tell you I mean it's probably it depends on the on the product like we've had products where for this to work it needs to be

more than 10 at least yeah so that's would be I would say that's Baseline for us 10 to 15 but then we had a product that basically uh every 24 hours we run a tournament so you'd get you be paying out like 200 bucks tournament and then the way we're supporting the tournament is now it's a one to many point so maybe you're going only earn a dollar individually but now you can earn 50 bucks you know like instantly that instantly every day the way it works is is that every 2 minutes you can watch an ad it could give you multiplier of the coins that you earn in the scratch card that but that multiplier right it compounds over well it compounds over 24hour period right so every two three minutes you watch you get a 2% so by the end of the day those cars are worth millions and millions of coins just because of the compounding value you've created and we're not we're not stop wait it's fine wait wait guys just we're recording recording thank you the joys of my it's a comp cast different that be a little moreable that's I to we need the casting

card yeah that's very interesting yeah ni to dig more into this what's the what's the catch yeah like yeah what's the catch why why is why is everyone yeah because the right games there's a lot of new ones this year I can imagine not exactly the same process but a lot of incentivized networks yeah yeah definitely a lot of Inc very sure we have these a lot of people got to the same conclusion roughly some of them with different Tech that's better or whatever but yeah yeah well that just said like it just screams to me like only certain types of dras can create economies that can you know man I seen this uh tile match games with the real money gaming layer uh pool game all like something skill based like it's Absolut random like tile b game with this the [ __ ] what the [ __ ] serious money fr the thing is is that a lot of times these these games are being built by people that either are really into

gaming yeah in which case they build games which is not the purpose of these types of prodcts or they're on the other side suris soer or they are they're coming from the media side and so they don't understand the gaming side and so they fail on sort of the basic unified elements I think that's where we have sort of carved a little need for ourselves like we come from gaming but we also come I come from Casino as well so I recognize that the marketing element is for for example I'll give you something that most people don't think about this is a tidbit for the kids of um yeah this we not support advertising 360s in anyway this is to amaz your friends and confuse your enemies the idea here is that in a typical company like uh any type of offer wall and from your game when you send the user out if your game is too good they'll just go get the credit and come back right which actually for me is bad even though it's my game because the advertisers we buying traffic game needs to suck no this isn't important because if it doesn't if it's a great game and I'm

just like so I jump to and I do the incent offer for whatever for for moonactive you know as a as you know the companies Rec that's great I just earn 10 bucks 15 bucks but moonactive will kill my campaign after a couple of days why because there's no longevity with those users so I can't make the game so interesting or more specifically I need them to play moonactive more consistently why because then otherwise moonactive kills yeah you work to Mo active mod uh I'm been in I'm part of the advisor board too last 11 years but it's very interesting really really I don't think so I've heard he said interesting like five times already so I guess uh yeah it's interesting you know I think this and I I want toar from Gus because I'm taking up too much of the time oh but um I'm not selling any no because you know I think the problem we have with the gaming industry and I think there's a whole host of reasons why this is I think today it's because you know VCS have have become SM us smarter right they with the kpis what

your ARP what your Ro so they pigeon gaming into the States they're becom more paranid or more like uh skeptical things scared yeah scared scared they yeah wiser in a way but effectively right now what I feel like it's if you don't have kpis we're not even in a conversation that's also shortsighted to to another extent yeah so smart we had few mes on on our podcast already and after some of the discussions we felt like okay well you know what you're doing you don't but even the ones who don't they like the point is is that the gaming space you know seven years ago six years ago it was you know I have an idea and I think it could be like this and there wasn't up people that could tell you that it was a bad idea that they would say okay like let's test it take a million take half a million that doesn't exist anymore no right and so but what's also coming down is that the platforms are are no longer providing any level of support so it used to be you get a feature from Apple that was life changing of money and insult

Google Now it crashes your ecpm are [ __ ] still making making the days you can earn [ __ ] am of money in a week now it's like not happening it doesn't happen and me and more than that you used to build your whole business around a feature you know I have a game you contact your Apple rep or your your yeah your updates like and that was that was a there were positions in companies that that was the person so we take this whole kind of ecosystem now where you get no support from the you get no support from networks on the platform yeah platform doesn't support you the the market is expensive it's only getting more expensive and there's no money to do it companies need to find ways to to survive and I feel like this is why these these products are coming back it's it's called Payway know something about that business maybe maybe maybe but I've been talking about this actually today which is like it's no longer the product that's getting product is silking but thank you it is it is it is but I feel

like the marketing team also needs like a unique selling point it's like not just a product anym and that was the difference between let's say a few years ago and now guys honestly I will take you one step for marketing determines the product in St yes product like in the game it's like marketing the final on boarding it's marting deter and the best game designers know it and the best game designers are paying attention to what marketing is seeing like you were talking on on the lecture like literally like we seen this many times the like biggest example that we always talk about is white out survival they literally build the game just for onboarding and there's a second game which is the money maker so that's like where the eyes in there the muscle yeah it's true and I think the and I think marketing always sort of felt like that you know like hey we need to be able to have these features and this functionality but no one was listening no one was listening and even today I would they didn't need to I think that's the difference now they need the market will push it to it yeah yeah it's a require it's like they don't need to but then suddenly oh

nothing is nothing is working invest money right now the interesting thing guys is that and I've worked on tons and tons of games with different companies part of what I've do is actually come into businesses to help them in this very specific moment which is the moment between when the users pass from the marketing us being a marketing user to a because you know what no company and I mean no company really is is there in that moment there's a position that exists for the most part some people call product marketing some people call it like CR some people like they there are titles but it's really that you need somebody who knows how to run marketing campaigns and knows how these are coming in oh this is this bbal Tik Tok whatever and need somebody who knows how to do gam side like was this almost if you need two and a half people [Laughter] as but honestly as someone who was a game designer turned marketeer I can tell you like it's super rare that someone speaks both languages and it's necessary and even more so because what

we don't speak Rema they still don't speak REM I can speak no but they no but think about it another way guys it's not it's not the marketing as qu because between 2016 no but from 2014 when when behavioral targeting became the way you bought media right what did Facebook do they said listen don't [ __ ] around targeting or whatever look alikes worldwide for buyers and we'll handle it you working on Creator and we'll do everything else so what did media buyers become become dead scientists they La no lazy yes lazy [ __ ] lazy [ __ ] you that I think that's a good TL marketing manager AKA a lazy [ __ ] La F God that's going to be on the next t-shirt I don't [ __ ] lazily but I am any um no but the point is is that the the market basically built a media buyer who had no sense of his own game because you could always find the right user for that type of product so they never had to think about marketing or how the users they were bringing how is this non gaming non

whatever us are going to convert on my product how do we marketing state was like the 2013 14 15 maybe just before D like ml kind of start at the end of Mach of days I remember those days we had hundreds of campaigns like very Niche targeting of course 18 18 to 24 interest lookalikes everything I was like oh let's just create one uh Advantage Plus campaign for [ __ ] everybody let's put slap like big budget like oh let's let's you know let Facebook do the trick and then you have guys like come me say okay if you guys want to run a campaign with us you need to spend $5 $600 a day per OS per market for two weeks and don't look at the campaigns because usually your CPAs are going to be like $300 $400 but don't worry it'll come down you know it's like yeah it's all I don't have like 50k just lying around exactly oh you know we don't look at the campaign like in the end of two weeks it's called a learning

phase the only one who's learning is how I can spend what I could have done with that 300 Grand I just but I think that that is what's taking place in the gaming space we went from a very uh art style kind of you know creative business to a very and then then we did this massive shift you know hyper casual to this like technology driven you know like we don't care what the game looks like if it's getting 60 day attention 6% we're there and now people are in this position is where it's like okay if I'm on iOS I got to be like creative again but on Android I can still do the thing but those those guys don't don't have that muscles from like the 2013 4D like that oh well I'm I think this is like two players at the same time so it's like simultaneously the gamer Gamers that are suddenly opening their eyes to the business and then you have the hyper cows that are suddenly opening up to I mean more refined game making you know so it's a bit like John was saying in the other day like hyper casual I'm moving to hybrid casual and eventually casual but you also have the reverse movement of like midcore doing fake ads that are hyper casual like fake G

because they can't bu the users anymore because ex they can't go that it is the singularity right so marketing while me in the middle halfway two [Laughter] men in the between no I think it's a look you I've been in this space almost you know it's almost 20 years now and I think you look like yeah good I'll yeah I sort of that's what real money does to you exactly enough no but I think that's the what we're seeing today is an industry that doesn't really know itself yeah you know I think people are trying to tr to find the new thing they just don't know their own thing you guys as consultants you guys uh see this that you have to retach the basics over and over and over again cuz it's like they are in this indust but they don't know what the industry actually implies like over and over and

it as someone that like after a decade of doing this it's like guys we've been over this yes I've teen like hey guys come on like here's a here's a podcast I did in 1995 just watch this I know it's like wa you yeah because some of these kids that are coming in now like these UA managers they don't have that cool but they have no context they grew up in a world that they just needed to be Economist like money in Money out yeah there's no marketing yeah there's nothing low low interest rates that we yeah like to the world what are we going to do it's like what do you mean what we're going to do what we did last year so I mean I'm not as ages yeah I've been around for for some time so we know like this already happened so many times a few times yeah exactly and we have again 100% no but I I I do want to like touch on that point this idea that I feel like what the gaming space you know I want to like try to put your finger on I think what the gaming space is is is really encountering with this moment is that we had a system or that's been

taken away but it hasn't gone fully so it's like I it's half we're not completely out yet so it's hard to find a new one right so if you guys have ever lived in another country sometimes you're like I'm I'm here one year two years like do I buy a car do I buy nice furniture like man I might move back and so you never you're always like between two places and then and I think that's where the gaming space is that everyone sort of between these you know what iOS is basically doing with killing all the business and Apple excuse me uh Android with it terrible cpms and awful you know conversion race and CER you're like you're sort of rocking a hard place but they're also very different places I don't know and let see what happens next crypto no no no noit wait guys we need to ask you cuz you know like a cosmic lounge if you're playing you know uh Buzz Buzz Bingo Buzz Bingo without without without like setting off my buzzword chart here what the [ __ ] do you

guys do okay so it's like the buzz like oh we use ML and machine learning in crypto to oh no no no no so as someone who has been here long enough I know the buzzer Bingo and I was in the AR localization Pokemon go bingo I was in the VR bingo I was also in the VR Bingo Social Mobile Local games oh boy hyper local oh God I I I get a little bit sick in my stomach just thinking about buzzwords so do you and so like it should be a signal the fact that I am in an AI game company um so first of all it's a game company it's not an AI product we're not selling anything we're not doing like AI we're doing games like B do in the house Jee guys no go like we're a game company come on XK at Ser Ro you we are people

the average age in the company like 10 years so we've been around the block making puzzle yeah quite we also have our 20 something there's a lot of cookie jars well we we have been making uh puzzle games specifically or casual games specifically like for a while so these are actual game makers and how do you leverage AI exactly so this was the thing imagine you're um a big company like a king or whatever and you're thinking hey I now want to really like dive deep into AI if I feel like AI is like the new Photoshop for artists right it's like this new tool that doesn't actually create a genre it doesn't actually make anything different but it makes it faster so it's a tool it's like you're not Reinventing the wheel you're making the factory line that makes wheels so Cosmic loung is a gaming company that uses AI tools to build games quicker more efficiently yes also themselves or does helps the other people it does not we do not have we believe that this [ __ ] is so uh

important or it's going to make so much money that we want to keep it for ourselves really so the we're not telling anyone yeah yeah that's fair enough I mean like yeah so think about it like this so you have a a casual game it takes what nine months to make something like this sometimes more uh but then you have hyper Cas games and we talked about like you know two months something like this so now imagine you're making casual games at the speed of weeks let me ask you a question how you yeah so this question go so hyper casual is like an up down game right game goes up another one back game goes down goes up so is there a benefit in your opinion because that's the business here of having 40 games in this like let's say you can roll this out and PR faster F eventually you getting a game it's almost instant you it's like a couple of days then compiles all the systems together boom you get a game and so at first I was thinking ah it's nice because okay you experiment more you fail more you learn more but the more I've done some experiments in this area the more I realize the kind of ab tests that you can do the kind of things that

you learn because think about it if you make games at that speed at the speed of hyper of hybrid casual but with a casual meta with a casual monetization method yeah uh I'm talking like 703 for context here you get the learnings from casual but at the speed of a hybrid or a hyper casual you start to be able to test games against other games and and ideas against other ideas mini games against other Min games like template yeah but yeah so this is what I'm trying to get you look at the top gross and charts for the last five six years how many new games have ended per chart right two two and right and how and how many of those and how many of those games were launched in the year that they were not a single one right so you it's this massive long process which isn't really about the game per se it's about the growth in the community the growth so the question that I have here growth for a community is growth for the company itself so well you think as a a company releasing multiple games right you're going to fail you're going to miss you're going to not do so up but you learn each and every time right hopefully hopefully the thing like what

do you learn what do you learn that's the thing and that's that's what I'm trying to get at like if you if you got this this track that you can just pump out as many games and yeah you oh this they don't like blue okay we got to make it red R or whatever alert him it's been the important part is not only to learn but to get faster each call SEC you gave me to be released faster otherwise you're doing something wrong just learning how how long does it take to relee the game right now so that's the that I'm trying to say is that we specialize in puzzle games grid based puzzle games and there's a point to this it's you if you specialize in one Niche you're learning all the learnings that are Rea applicable so imagine I make a new feature I make a reward OD placement the next game H can have the exact same reward placement and suddenly I don't need to develop it again right yeah so the developers each incremental thing will be worth later even if the game would fail right Mak uh about time answer your question about the speed of which we develop I can't say too much

right now but I can say h hybrid casual speed so three 3 to six months you're I'm saying that AR you I'm saying saying I would say would months hyb no hybrid C it depends I think this word hyper casual doesn't necessarily denote speed per set I think it's about mechanics like if you go heavy on the graph I was just saying it's to see his reac why I haven't we released yet is because there's a lot of fine tuning on all this like it's it's still new tech AI is still new there's still a lot of hallucination and stuff that happen it's notf so it takes time to develop and the other thing is like okay so we talked about earlier today the fact that we can do a lot of mini gamess so we imagine we make a fake ad we can actually put that in a game of ours as a mini game that actually exists in the game and a very quick turn around it's ours so that's why I'm like [ __ ] excited this is why I love this job because it's like suddenly the fake outs that we both know when centy games releases a new fake you can have it in the mini game within an hour or a couple hours I wake up look at

it look at the chart yeah or you rep all reply and then you have it automatically crazy this sounds to me like if that works but then but then you have an issue right and this is why we're taking time and we're we're learning we're experimenting a lot is how do you fit all of them into one game right like uh you have examples like Lily's Gardens nightmares right but I place yeah I don't like that too much so what we're now trying to investigate F in a way that's logical right we do have the advantage if all the games are like grid based puzzles they all kind of feel Rel make it episodic or S you know like so that's what we're experimenting with don't have the St because s sounds to me very call for what Happ is they have a template for RO RPG they can switch plays around did you not hear AI have the [ __ ] same template same monetization same shop same events same everything and just clapping okay so what what's the difference between this thing well I think the

biggest difference right now is genre like we're we're yeah there's the main problem it's locked one genre and you can only Dead one he's locked into the genre he's locked but when you're de when you're describing this framework you're locked to the framework so yeah you but that's not what he's saying he's saying that what they can do is they can look at the framework and the framework is as malleable as the the cor Loop the technology does enable us to not need to necessarily release a new title NE sat like we might do that mean it means that you could have a magic Candy Crush but every level is something complely unique built on top of itself moving forward so in we haven't proved if we should G if you go with that yes can we build the Archer or out of it yes so this is what we're trying to figure out the like we don't have enough results out of it but at least like in P in the same CH yeah like you know wait we are waiting the puzzle CH I let's say can we use the same template for a worldwi RPG or not us I mean you have to train the

on what you have to build you to build the system that's the main problem with like all these kind of like at Le templates that Pok you walk one genre sure but okay but you have the M you can add merch with or a different like not glass but but still with the and merge and merch free and tap to blast and all these different this is yes but they're all puzzle and grip based need to you know ID RPG Al but there still the point probably not no no the thing is think about the model you have to trade them model right just like you have any B algor right so yeah you want to buy for Casino cool you can do that can you do this also for non-casino games sure and the potential of just casual puzzle like you don't need I have to come back no no no I'm just asking like what's the possibility because like of course like they get me wrong it's it's great saying also like you you start match free and then whatever is like tap to blast and then you just switch and assets how do you feed be want to G

what what do you mean by that how do you feed it like which usually feed with Margaritas you feed the gust with Margaritas no I I got a question I got a question not to because this is actually interesting to what say because obviously you're training it either on your own games or you're reverse engineering it ape of other games to be like look at this game it's successful give me this product so have you guys heard of this company called Nightshade you heard of this product cool [ __ ] cool and if I tell you what it does it's me even cooler what it does come onic loues also what Nightshade does is that when you upload a you you you have like so you have your drawing right so what's the problem with AI is they uses open source I mean using the inet to train itself right like we have all these problems right so what n does is that when you upload an image you first compile it with nishin and what Nichi does is it makes the visual of the image is looking like this but when an AI reads it it will corrupt the AI system so if it uses it to train the model so they say within 100 images if 100 images

come up with this system doesn't affect us it will collapse that no it's more about just the idea of how do you regulate the usage of AI in this context so the night shade how do we avoid night shade uh no that's actually a really simple answer we don't develop the eye we develop a tool right it's so puzzle engine which is the the tool that we develop in house that is a are hot swappable right right so imagine uh now one AI is corrupted mid Journey or whatever and we want to switch to Leonardo right yeah we can yeah like and it for us again few hours and that's the point it took us a while to develop the technology to be able to H Swap all these different AIS but we are doing it because some of them are going to fail and we know this and we need to be ready for that but I think that's an important C what he's describing right is that you have 15 different AIS different types time maybe I mean as as a concept I think you know you're audience is more familiar with like a buing algorthm then they'll be super familiar with that concept that's

game development a mediation of a an AI well technically that's what we're doing in a way yeah but like some's completely like logical to me like it's you know like flapping out those canister some of them burn out like you put a new canister in like the Canon is the important thing Imagine One AI suddenly has copyright issues yeah we can just immediately pull it out yeah it's like you know pulling out your favorite friends from Networks yeah looking at you m the best but if I had to summarize it it's we as a game makers figured out it's good to specialize in a genre yeah and now we're building all the tools to specialize faster way faster and then on the UA applications for me it's super exciting to be able to hog swap fake ads and they're actually real mini games in the game I got I got to come back to this idea do you think this will be as successful as a a Candy Crush without no first so how do you get there how soand crush is like same game same everything hyperfocus on this one part what I've

seen look at SL Mania look at you know Clash of Clans you look atre Master yeah but these aren't JRE Masters these are people who have singularly focused were first okay fine let's look at uh here's one my point this is a company that took all its resources in one product and just live that one product for six years until they got it right so they the AI inhibit that or does it or does our current the way we're is built as gaming companies it's like he not working really well how do you compete with someone that made 15,000 levels how do you compete with that you need to make 15,000 levels you're going to handmade make as a start of 15,000 levels or not right so maybe use AI to get that edge to be able to compete so I'm not going to say that uh we have the tools to beat them overnight but we have the tools to start competing with them with a way smaller team I agree with the smallest of the the team component but

those but when you've done 500 levels you know what a good level looks like yeah you important car is guys levels whatever level you need to data those levels you can make as many levels as possible you don't have the data through rates the conversion rates of those levels those levels are I know this is the kind of stuff I can't talk about serious I cannot talk about that but let's say that we are starting to area you have to everyone balance is L how would you insert there the know how well I think you no so I can no but there's one kpi that you look at it's called OCR or the you know the rate of completion right so there's a there's there's a rate of completion which is which is beneficial for purchase exactly typically above 80 80 80 to 90% so if you're now if you get too close the person might not pay if you get too far away so if you how do you do it nowadays you have a level designer that's checking the data

and optimizing and rixing redoing or you have Dynamic T so you're looking at a so you have a baseline level so the number of moves you have the level then you you start to run it through you get an average Baseline of how many people are paying and so when you lose this level your your completion rate is 40% okay we need to add more moves or you need to reduce the number so you have basically two level three you can pit controller which color reading system use that to basically either Define I have a number of moves this is the EAS of usage those are the factors like it took me six minutes to complete the result that's way too long so you can you know manage to this but you know those were if I thinking about that process that's that's the that's the hook but I think that's the bread and butter going into puzz yeah you you kind of haveen but but in AI could make that easy I understand that AI could get that done so you see we're so I'm not going to claim here that we're going to innovate the space in a way that oh the the the game is going to come on and it's going to be the the most fresh take on puzzle whatever at least not at first but I can guarantee you that we'll get there faster so that's kind does this help the

industry or oo now that's spicy because I think works there so he's all right unfortunately that is the answer that is the money right so you're no but that is the answer unfortunately it's I think it raises the bar of minimum entry level so does it help HT the industry it filters it out it filters it out it kind of hurts it in some ways and helps it another so once you uh copycat faster copycatting doesn't work anymore So eventually you need to end of it again so again product becomes you amplify the exportation that's really interesting that's really interesting I didn't think about like that for really but I like that idea I like the idea that that the copy like right now we all you know what it does you know what it does it means that no one can rest on their Laurels anymore I like that I like this idea quality for so say improves quality even if quality even if the quality is by simply by saying look I'm not making I'm going to make something else I got to invent something else there's always What I Hear even from like like really

good graphics guy friend like everybody in graphics Community is like scared about the my graphics and just like give me all of it because like I will be able to do the work of 20 people yeah that's what happens to me as well and like I look guys like there's mid Journey like Adobe whatever tools like it's you give it to an artist it makes the process so much more efficient immediately it's so beautiful to give an AI to the right person and they go ham with it yeah I I like the idea you hear this thing like AI is got to take your job it's like no someone who uses it exactly great you still need somebody that knows what they're doing I great artists and the AI made them incred and as someone who's not into buz words it's not perfect yet it you need someone to manually tweak all the real AI let's I I really want to like say it's an assistant it's not artificial intelligence a concept like it's a machine Learning System right AI would grow and eventually take literally take your job because you know it's your right and then and then it would

eventually become racist and kill what happens that's there's a reason that we I mean go all we don't have real yet no at the end we have tools do we have tools it it replaces so even as a professional in the games industry the level the bar also raises right because if you can just do mediocre jobs an AI will kind of not fully replace you but in a way replace to keep up that's the thing and with that I guess yeah Time end we have T-shirts for you guys thank you guys for coming on yeah amazing thank guys good don't forget to like And subscribe before AI replaces you yeah thank you tocel amazing good [Music] conversation [Music]

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