Finnish mobile games history: part 1

cool all right so that took weeks to make this took about an hour earlier so um we had a we had a gap to fill which is now gone but I filled anyway um and I was asked if I could do some quick Reflections on the history of the uh the Finish mobile gam scene and so I kind of looked through my photo album really and this is kind of what I got up with I'll go as quickly as I can uh I kind of got through there we go finside track so there we go finish game's history through a pocket game of lens um the context of this is we've basically Pocket Gamer actually I should introduce myself that's customer isn't it so in case you don't know me it's been a very long day for me this I don't get out a lot so um I'm I'm Chris James I'm the managing director of Steel media which publishes Pocket Gamer and other things um and this is kind of our conference here so thank you for coming look at that don't skip ahead you ruin it for everybody it's skipping oh anyway Autos SK that's annoying so basically yeah and we've been involved since pocket Gam been going finish games

industry has been a big part of what we're doing and so I'm going to run through some a private and also a company reflection on the different ages of the Finish games industry okay so year one or sort of chapter one was five years BP which for me means before Pocket Gamer because obviously nothing else was important before then um what was the news oh stop it stop ruining it for everybody so the so the news was right entertainment was the big news uh you know they Rose a lot of money and then they they burnt it expect tally we'll talk about that a bit now everybody had a series 40 the best phone ever made uh I called it the tank maybe I'm I'm I alone in that I don't know but that was my favorite thing um and everybody had snake and for us where were we that's my son there ah say ah come on he's so Pocket game was just an idea back then so then we launched in March 2006 skipping forward a fair bit um wech somewhere in egland or England you can tell I did this like quite quickly didn't you never mind oh oh God we've

gone through the same thing anyway this is going to be very professional as you can tell this is what happens to do it shortly so what was happening with uh what was happening okay I'm going skip through right this is Something's Happened to the PowerPoint is it can you stop it skipping ahead is there any way of stopping it no [Laughter] okay well I told you was light entertainment I don't mind you laugh at me or with me but basically so skipping past our launch we've got to stop skipping can you stop it skipping can you stop it as a way of it's on is it you sure right I'm not starting again we can skip through there we go there you go that was the early early fantastic days games you loved so Pock gameer launched there we go fantastic that's me very thin and in black and white that's how long ago it was so uh one of our first Big Woo oh look at that first big

engagements with uh with the Finish industry was uh was a trip out to to lap land um with uh with Nokia there we go there's me enjoying myself out there and um big games back then thank you uh I don't know if is anybody here you who made games for engage does anybody here made games for engage what game you make one on this panel what was your game glimmer glimmer atti did anybody here make Pathway to Glory fair enough nobody found redlings or something equally I I love that game I love the one I love recent generation fantastic games so that's what that's what no was doing mainly spending a lot of money and taking journalists all over the place we actually made the official engage magazine suffice to say that was a one issue thing but we made it so um so then the next stage is is called sweet like chocolate so this is this is a trip to Digital Chocolate um we went to their studio and it had a fantastic time they were they were they brilliant hosts and I just loved what

they did but then the games we made just amazing so there's some a Cavalcade of games we love there many of which won Gold Awards while I was there I was introduced to ax throwing which you all do right at the weekend and salaki which I know you all do at the weekend yes uh and and bear I actually I don't is that is that a bad thing eating bear I don't know somebody gave me some bear or they pretend it was Bear whatever it was but I had a fantastic time um skipping ahead um a couple of years we uh we we spent a lot of time time connecting with Mr good living we didn't actually meet the guys out here I know that Marcus is one of your we didn't me meet them out here we met them in eastanbul but but will Helm you were responsible for a lot of this I was dealing with you back then in Arman but again I like like Digital Chocolate hugely hugely important business making some phenomenal games we we just love the play man stuff I think I got a platinum award what I actually found out when I was looking through uh our our history with finish games is that Finnish games have got more Platinum Awards than any other country from our

site and we give out we have given out in like 10 years about 30 and I think you guys have like seven or something like that it's astonishing so good good you so yeah obviously as all these things are accompanied by my drunken uh fun that was that was a trip to East Temple with a banana the story will come out later it's very entertaining um so skipping forward another couple of years um we we came across this small game that was being uh submitted to a the IMG competition called Angry Bird I was a judge of the imga and Pocket game were very heavily involved in that and uh it was submitted and I we' got a bit of a buzz by then but it wasn't the smash that obviously since become and uh the interesting story is that somebody on that judging panel looked at that game and said it's nice Graphics but it's a little bit derivative isn't it uh that's me yes so so I'm really sorry R but the reason you didn't win an award that year was probably my fault um but uh yeah but obviously since then they probably they probably made up for it and they have forgiven me so that's me the IMG and

that's that's me being forgiven with plush toys many years later okay we're nearly done so um trip to Tampere Tampere I love that place so this is our first ever event in in Finland was in tare did anybody come to the Pocket game of mobile mixer in tare W fantastic we had a great time there um and it was properly snowing which is what I like and we we we met loads of great game developers Oscar Clark who who's around will be around tomorrow he was he was co-chairing with me and yeah we met some great had a fantastic time drun a lot of beer um I want to give a big shout out to somebody in particular who's in the audience who is basically integral to this event happening at all and to us being involved in the industry and that's that's suie laa who who basically first can we have a round of applause to her stand up please basically she you know she introduced she invited AC cross and she made it all happen and she's just brilliant and without her we wouldn't be

here today in the sauna outside um okay nearly done so then so then I also you know have made some connections to this this other small local business um uh I remember coming across to Super cell's uh office um so I'd known the guys for quite a while and uh before they released any games um and there was I was there to see battle buddies was it battle buddies that was right wasn't it that was the game and um and they later didn't come out obviously and but while I was there they showed me this new game which they hadn't shed me outside the company and it was uh it's it's done relatively well for itself bless it which was kind of Clash of Clans uh and they again they asked me what I thought this time heding my bets having Having learned from the Roo embarrassment I said yeah it looks pretty good it's it's it's quite good and there we go that's why I'm an expert because it was quite good and it's done quite well and uh during that trip I also that was a trip shortly Afters I went to slush so we had a had quite a lot of uh good times at slush for some reason people were painting their nails at slush I can't remember why we also have a mustache I

can't remember why that is either but never mind there's a man there from remedy who I'm ashamed forever now he'll never speak to me and there's there's me with a mustache between two multimillionaires Spot the Difference okay uh finally um or not almost quite finally is uh we ran a a Battle Pack we we an event in in Helsinki uh in last last year and which was went really well so anybody come to the Helsinki battle panel mixer yeah you don't come to what do you people do during the day um and again that that's saw kind of the biggest names sort of squaring off each together it was it was the theme of the event was Big versus small so we had people like kind of uh uh roio and King on one side and then kind of Frogman frog minded in gray area and supercell on the other side for which I gave ilka quite a lot of grief but as you can see there they celebrated and won if you if any if you ever get come to one my battle panels you should we were thinking about holding one here but he so busy already uh yeah and it's basically yeah I was

adjudicating and uh now it brings us right up to date and the last few months where I've basically been traveling around meeting all the new guys and what I kind of wanted to say with this um is really that I'm just so far what you guys have achieved is is phenomenal it's just really amazing you guys I think have probably made the best games of any of any any country any place we've been continuously from the Java days and the stuff I'm seeing now for the next generation is is just is just amazing it's it's really I can see it's going to continue for long long time so I've been here a lot the last couple of months and uh mainly on planes and and as did anybody go to the trials ex stream party God my God that's insane that man that's that's a real man on the bike jumping over my head anyway enough of that enough of that prity this is it really so to be continued that's my 11th slide so this is where we are today and on that which I'm going to hand over to my colleague George hello who's sitting there looking scared going what all that I know he is he is going to uh yeah he's going to be

the man looking after the day so George yeah oh I'm I'm excited I'm excited to have you all here as well it's fantastic I've been researching your industry for the last couple of weeks and you're terrifyingly talented that's what I'd say it's a it's a good level of intimidation so that's good I've been drinking for 10 years he's been researching it for two weeks so can we here for George please cuz he's going to be your your compare thank you I'm now I'm now going to go off and do a 100 other things uh and um but I'm going to hand over to George who's going to take on this panel talking about the the first uh stage of the Finish game's History George well we're going to be talking about I predict right and the rise of the Java Giants we're not actually talking about the Kaiser Chiefs or types of Colombian coffee but we are going to be talking to these guys about how they basically helped Kickstart an industry and how they started off in this wonderful little land that we called Finland and just basically made a big success of everything but just to help you get grounded could we just quickly come down the line and everyone just quickly introduce themselves just starting with my good friend Petri over

there and just work our way down so that everyone knows who exactly we're going to be talking to okay hey I'm I'm Petri and nowadays I'm a creative director at EA in in Helsinki Finland uh 10 years ago I was a very Junior game designer at sua which then became Digital Chocolate and I really enjoyed those early years of creating Java Games and I guess that's why I'm today here over to Marcus okay so I'm I'm Marcus I'm CEO at Grant crew currently and 15 years ago I dropped out of University and started working on mobile games which where I've stayed since so I I started a fantastic startup called Riot entertainment where we had lots of fun hey I'm yussi I'm nowadays an Executive Vice President at Unity Technologies who acquired my company applifier three months ago um I think my my claim to fame why I'm here is I'm one of the founders and Main organiz of

assembly and it's impact on the drinking culture and and the game development scene here has been pretty substantial I'm Jefferson today I run a mobile studio for EA in Redwood Shores back in headquarters but yeah nine years ago I moved to Finland to meet like some of these guys here uh make games and drink beer hi I'm Sami senior Vice of president in roio started my mobile entertainment career in 98 in a company called son Zed do you remember that one and uh y yay what a success and uh little bit later on uh had the uh studio called Mr good living where we have a couple of guys here sitting in the row and well it's great to be on the same line with this uh let's not call them dinosaurs we are the I still leave yeah and Alex I'm heading up the

games partnering for Microsoft mobile so I started uh with Nokia uh back in 20066 uh so seen a long journey with it with Nokia uh which has been been great fun uh but prior to that I guess it was about 10 years ago I I I headed up the uh the games team in in in one of the operator channels so T-Mobile across Europe uh driving uh the the Java Games business um so uh and then joined a startup uh little known at the time called jammed at that acquired the uh the tetris license and then subsequently sold to EA I think 680 million if I remember right back in 2006 so uh yeah that that was been my journey so it's been it's been fun he VH um with playground publishing now but uh started over 10 years ago with uh with same little good living studio um used to run marketing back then which was ever so slightly different than it is right now

so yeah well it looks like a very talented panel of people and then there's of course myself who's just here helping out um but let's kick off I mean you know I was I was raised a Christian and I was taught that all good origin stories start with a snake that's basically what I was talk and with that little segue I'm going to go and ask you guys about when snake came out it's 1997 back then honestly the World Cup hadn't even been in France just to you know T that into what we're talking about today it was it was a long time ago a Galaxy far far away but did any of you see this major super mobile hit coming did any of you realize that this was even going to be a thing at the time I mean let's go for yussi first cuz he looks terrified so that seems like a good person to pick up first um yeah I think I had a mobile phone back in there I would imagine so I still have the same number um my breed ground for gaming was in the demo scene and you were PC Gamers and games were real thing which you shoot people and do and that was like a Time waster so frankly I don't I think anybody looking at would have predicted

an industry coming out that was just a Time waster and compared it really while you know you could look at B say yes it's a fantastic game and has all the things about game it was really just like well that was just something not get through in there there I highly doubt there was much of a plan behind that somebody probably made it and like well why are we putting this in I don't know like maybe Alex knows well I I think I think the one thing that you can learn from snake which I think is as true then as it is today is that it was dead simple right dead simple combined with distribution and and uh you you've got a hit I mean that that that's really the two things it it was fun you know very simple to play and you know quite viral in a social kind of way before social networks in the the very simple high score uh but I know amongst you know with my wife I was always we were always fighting for the best score so I think that's where it all started yeah I mean because that it was a really interesting thing you say about Simplicity because I was talking to Petri a few weeks ago about Digital Chocolate and you said that the whole philosophy was one button G game play that you could create these games and

experiences could you could you sort of describe that and describe why you had to you know work within that well what happened that that first games when we started games it was very kind of easily we started designing very complex uh controls but very quickly we then with a couple of games we realized that hey you can do so much stuff with just one button and it kind of became a slogan that one button game play and and and we created many many games uh just using one one button and it was one of kind of this kind of that okay what we can do with one button and actually you can do pretty lot of stuff a lot of you well I mean this is what I've heard I mean how many of you were involved in the demo scene how many of you I mean I know that Yi was definitely I mean you two I think it's going to be a really interesting perspective some people I mean here might not know too much about demos scene maybe Marcus you could explain what it was about and what kind of the idea behind it was and maybe I mean can you say that the idea behind it helped people when they were designing these first games I wouldn't know exactly what was

the idea behind demos but or what the point is I cool I did see like some some Demos in like 92 93 from these guys which inspired me to start learning programming more at the time and like I visited assembly for the first time in 94 94 and then I was like okay I I need to I need one one day I need to have my stuff on the screen and win and next next year I tried to participate but didn't get on the screen and like tried harder and a few years later I was w i was a winner at assembly which was a great moment for me yeah it was fantastic was I in the stage handing you the prize was or me it was both of you damn didn't didn't I Cann remember at all so many times didn't didn't roio come out of the assembly scene as well many of us yes yeah it came out so you can see there's this like this Common Thread coming through these people who've got these this great skill set that they developed mostly from pissing around let's be honest you know I'm going to claim a little bit more Fame to Robo than that because what happened in 2004 I believe so we had a Peter Waka

who some of you have heard about had this great idea was on HP saying like you know it's time to make mobile multiplayer games 200 four you know so he has some crazy ideas at time so he came to us and like you know we at HP we're going to sponsor this thing you guys go and find demo seniors who going to make these games so we actually went out and found 11 teams or 13 teams which over three months time we coached and 11 of them finished and make a mobile game one none of them were multiplayer and one of them actually was a game called King of the Cabbage World which is the first game robio did so it actually came directly out of this competition that was arranged by sponsored by Peter and that's how Peter got involved in robio so let's see so we've got roio coming out of the demo scene we've got Grand crew remedy all these we've got glitterati on engage of course which was came from demo scene is a name of a demo actually yeah exactly exactly so this was this was this was a big deal guys it was a big deal but you know it was bunch of talented teenagers who couldn't stop competing and uh suing who who can do more stars on the screen

basically who has the biggest Wang and you know but it was really really talented sort of people and I think what was interesting about demos L programmers do stuff alone but when demo scene you have to have a crafti and a musician and maybe a designer you pull those together you basically have a mini group of people working together on a audio visual pres uh thing and that kind of teach a lot of people group work and and a lot of the uh companies got started out of that just just like as like a foreigner perspective like the first time I heard about anything Finnish was demo M like you know getting by downloaded a 64k or like tiny demo that did like a lot of like crazy stuff on my PC so yeah cuz that's really interesting because you you've you came over from Brazil you came into to Finland was it nine years ago you said yeah nine years ago what was it that Drew you across was it just the demo scene or was it this no it was really the weather it was the weather of course you know wonderful and lovely as it is it's a lovely day today let's not be too insulting it's better than England um but yeah so you came over so what was it that Drew you over brought you in I don't know I mean interestingly like well I I I know obviously I know but

like I met lass sepin when he was at Nokia in 2001 and at GDC so I became friends then at some point I wanted to move abroad and and I had a choice between a job here and a job in Austria and uh my wife is a designer and of course Finland also had the reputation for design so it just made a lot of sense like you know design technology so it drew you in it drew you in these these talented individuals talented individuals like the incredibly quiet Mr vilhelm come on so what what are your thoughts on all of the Finland early days what were you thinking uh there was there was a few things that I I think drove drove the whole Revolution to happen if you if if that's what you can call it afterwards and demo scene certainly was one um like in there's I think we have to give credit to to The Finnish um Innovation uh Public Funding uh Arrangement as well in in in in in the form of teas and and also all the all the good work that cop and and subie have done since um there's also so I you know I I think that there's there's a

little bit in the in the Finnish like culture and in The Finnish also in the climate and I touching upon the culture a little bit is is back then uh there was there was two major PC console games companies springing up but there was there was quite a like from a per capita perspective there was quite a few mobile games companies happen happening here now I want to argue that that fins are are from a from a from a cultural perspective quite quite risk averse quite introverted so mobile games in general had a far smaller budget so it seemed probably at the time that that's maybe that's something we should go for not the massive massive massive multi-million dollar budget PC gam so I think that from a cultural fit perspective mobile games fit quite well with Finland okay interesting I'll just share my experience as well because actually this is a little bit new to me understanding but it's actually in in hindsight looking back as a content manager at T-Mobile i i i vividly

remember to this day actually I I can't remember Samir Chu that I visited and actually in most of my most of my meetings at that point it's like how can I get my deck placement how can I get my but I remember actually the time that was spent going around the whole team and as you said they kind of working together was actually to this day is probably the only meeting I've had where I was introduced to the to the artists the production in a in a in a really kind of encompassing whole kind of team mentality and that still stands out today so it's it's interesting to see that but I think it's it's very true it must be very something very unique to the Finn culture okay so that's a really interesting we've got a good take there I think on on why the fins are so perfectly placed to make these fantastic oh we've got another comment let's go for another comment the climate the climate Okay so it sus cu the climate sucks yeah and and and it like what are you going to do with winter you know you know how you know how to program you know like you like Electronics you like to fiddle around with with with stuff on the computer you you program games okay so coldness helps AB coldness helps out that's important but let's let's not forget Nokia they provided all the

developers lots of opportunities and knowledge and also some Talent came from the pent manufacturer to games industry back in the days and uh well it's it was a well yeah it was a very influential company inl that but but I want to say like even to add to what Sami says is that even as as noia fell from from its its top position even that had had from again from I want to say a cultural perspective had a profound impact on the overall attitude towards entrepreneurship and and it it's it's of course they provided Bridge financing and all that but like the the attitude from from Engineers um having a long career at Nokia changed from Hey I want to do a startup and that's that's that's that's a very positive impact to to the whole Finnish society and and then hopefully will help Finland to to to to grow into the next next 10 years next 20 years

next 100 years it's an interesting point you speak about entrepreneurship because one of the first examples of an interesting variety of Entrepreneurship was a certain company called Riot e which managed to raise 20.5 million euros in funding within two years which is a spectacular achievement when you look back at it um and we've unfortunately there's not many people who know much about it except for Marcus who was there he was there when the Titanic was spending huge amounts of money on saers as it was being sunk but could you give us a bit of insight into the riy madness it really is an insane story from what I heard so where would I start like if I look at the organization chart I was probably like there was like three different ways of finding like 10 people path to the CEO so I was very like somewhere far behind that it was my first job ever and pretty cool one I was it was like more than at at the point it was like more than 100 people company making games where was whereas I was like one of the five people who know how to do programming and what were the what were the yeah

what were the games like I mean you know some people here might be wondering were they a bit like snake were they little things you could play with the button with the button and sort of guide something around or were they text messaging games yeah but with cool Brands like we had X-Men all the other Marvel director Spider-Man and we had Lord of the Rings games and uh bridet Jones diary and would you say that the gameplay lived up to the brand oh like rock paper scissors is always like a great gameplay so Bridget Jones rock paper scissors there we go but beyond that I heard that the company had an interesting internal company culture and that perhaps there were some interesting hiring strategies that according to uh various people involved in the company on the documentary led to the hiring of people on the streets drunks porn stars was there any truth to this probably not probably not okay so not quite as glamorous a story on that sense but he did say probably probably well exactly it's an important caveat but essentially I mean you saw right it was the first company that got all of this investment

and it managed to blur it quite spectacularly what went wrong in your opinion Beyond it being a complete mad house maybe maybe you could say that the timing was wrong like two years later there would have been like Java and like potential to grow the company big and all of that at the same time like most of the company didn't know anything about software business even that they know a lot about entertainment and maybe fundraising so essentially it was kind of if they had maybe come a few years later when Java maybe it might have been a different story for for poor riy and I think so it might might have been very and crazy spending and their crazy SAA building and things like that but that brings me into the arrival of java I mean how much of an impact did that make on the industry I mean obviously Up Until then people were able to make mobile games but you know Alex was was it transformative did it really help you guys out uh I mean absolutely I mean uh you know to go back to the I guess the the kind of crown jewels of the Java Games back in in in the days 2004 2005 I mean Tetris is a classic

example that actually I mean Tetris had been around on I think it was one of the came with a with a Game Boy I think uh kind of handheld games and suddenly you could take this and make it better on a mobile phone um and S I think that was that was really revolutionary in terms of you know people really understanding um that you can get this kind of gameplay on on a phone so in that simple sense I mean I think Tetris I I would point to the to the kind of groundbreaking moment okay and Jefferson what do you think about this set of Interest yeah I think like there was probably one of the first times where like you as more like you know company here in Finland could actually put these games out globally right so like there's like a a pretty big Global like exp like a exposure that could uh even though the market was very different from today today is obviously way better but like back in the day like if you uh traditional chocolate like we had the network and people in the US who could you know go and put the games out there so like it was it was kind of a good way to uh be like a global company

like really like your games would be like in India and like several places in the world so I mean that that said there was OB I mean from when I've spoken to anyone about Distributing games throughout the world across operators various people have described to me as I think tough would be a would be a kind way of doing it I mean what was it like trying to get a game distributed Sammy you know what was your experience well we all know that it was very little to do with the creativity or creating games it was quite frankly logistic business when building all those versions I know we had a maybe was it 30,000 SK back in Mr good living days for one single title if maybe in like 2006 but it probiz like at two more zeros one one zero per year it was madness madness of number how many skes where they distributed how they need to be customized localized and different handsets support it so well it was a

nightmare nightmare it was difficult to do it was a nightmare you I guess you didn't make that much money from it so it leads to people having to consider certain ways of making extra money and that brings me over to Petri because you were talking to me about when you were working at sum about an extra way that you went about making a little bit more money when times were a little bit tough could you maybe tell people about your TV experience about your experience with your script I mean this is a fantastic way if you're because I tell you if you're not making money with mobile gaming finish soaps are Apparently one way of keeping yourself in sort of house and home I mean is that the case did you really go and write finish soaps for a little bit during your mobile gaming days I don't know but well it's true that I I used to write soap operas before I join joined sua and and well but it there was a good reason for me I mean that perhaps you have seen salad secret lives in in Finland it's a big thing in Finland but I was happy to join suum

because I I had a thing that hey I can now access the whole globe as a designer but but of course they are different media TV and and games but games is much better it's it's much better definitely though I would love to see one of your so poers one day that would be absolutely fantastic but I mean you know we're coming towards the end of things because I'm seeing the pie chart of time doom on that screen there it it looks very terrifying I tell you um but this kind of brings me to the last one which is I think something that maybe Alex would be willing to talk about which is the engage the poor ill- fated engage oh dear it tried its best didn't it but it didn't quite work out I think it's really interesting actually because we you know again going back to the Simplicity point the failure of engage was in the Simplicity I mean I mean the I would say the the actual engage Standalone device before my time so I don't take any uh I can't make any comment on that yeah but but what we did try to do so so we had there was a really interesting transition where we went from java to smartphone pH and actually I remember I don't know if anyone that it's n95 this is I still

still love this device and we we tried we tried to put engage on here and and and we put it on here but the you know what came next I think when we we kind of made this soft software platform we had that we had the n97 I don't remember this one this was this was a this was but as you can see the uh the form factors were different and we had um we didn't have capacitive touch and so what we tried to do is take a software platform that was designed for non-touch devices and make it on touch devices devices and and I think it didn't work the the you know the point is you know the you know capacitive touch that really changed the game um and that's why engage wasn't ready for that um and I think that's that's my personal opinion on where it fell down because actually strategy wise and the games were great I said we had we had some great games from Roo we had bounce was on there uh you know really really compelling experiences but too complex uh to not not a great consumer experience at the end of the day you know what do you think about it Phil home I mean you're you're a clever

cookie I think you might have analyzed this deeply it was a spectacular failure it was a spectacular failure it really was but I I I think there's there's there's like it really was a result of many things of of which Alex I think I can echo echo a lot of them I like there was there was a moment I remember this moment and I it it was know from an industry Insider perspective was quite quite humoristic where the the final final launch date of engage was locked to let's let's call it December 20 right but it turned out like on December 10th that there that that date is not going to happen but all the ab above the line advertising was all booked solid for that week starting the launch so you had metros and and billboards and stuff all over Lo London um blasting out engage but engage was nowhere to be found yeah so it was it was it was it was a it was it was a spectacular failure but I echoing what Alex said it's it's true

it was very complex uh it was also like the strategy going into it um and in in hindsight might not have been the right one to really go after the the the the hardcore like the tip of the Gaming Community they're like bulking banking on on an idea that that uh Call of Duty players are going to come to the mobile phone when like comparatively the mobile phone experience was shitty uh to compared to the conso so there was there was a lot of factors going into it so there was a lot that went wrong I think it's fair to say that we all agree that some there was a lot that went wrong but as one final thought and I think for one final question for yi I mean I've spoken to you about this you know your experience making glitterati I think you have strong opinions about actually why it was important for the industry that the endau existed because even though obviously it was a failure in terms of it was super important for the industry here and and I think you know everybody should recognize that Nokia supported the ecosystem and they were really uh

big and bold on their plans and they actually put a lot of money into the ecosystem and and you know I probably cannot talk about the actual Euro mons but they were very substantial and you know roia wouldn't be here today without the projects that noia commissioned and and there were other companies like red LS who is not part of that's not part of Ubisoft bubear that where I used to work at and other companies that that fundamentally may have not been around here without uh that funding but who knows it's it's hard to say but it it's certainly the terms of the deals were good but man that that hard were was pain to work with just to add to what you said is is it really I think it really taught a lot of Finnish companies to to make Bigger Productions because it had been quite small and and having all of a sudden you have over a million euros at your disposal to to put on one game that was unheard of in in in the mobile like traditional mobile games era so I think that was really one of the Sparks that also ignited where we are now okay so it

was a bit of a glorious failure then I it was but just just to kind of finish on a POS I no is still going right I mean we we and and in terms of Java Games Java Games are still alive I just if anyone that doesn't know we still shipping 200 million Java devices uh you know globally in in in India and Emerging Markets so so Java's the future Java's the future along with along along with nox yeah absolutely past present and future past present and future well thank you very much everyone for joining me and can we give them all a big round of applause for sharing their one [Applause] the