Diversity in the Game Industry with Ray Graham | Game Dev Unchained Episode 270

hey everybody brandon pham here and before we start today's episode i want to proudly announce that this episode is sponsored by autodesk for longtime listeners and supporters out there you know that i am an avid autodesk user i've started my career using the 3ds max switched over to maya interchangeably i've been going back and forth throughout my professional career at different studios the same was even true before i even entered the industry as a student and played around with 3ds max to complete my schoolwork so in terms of history relationship with autodesk it's been rapid since over 15 years ago and it doesn't seem to be changing the next 15 years so if you're serious about your game development career in the game industry heavily start investing into autodesk and its tools because it's very much still a part of the pipeline in

any game studio and of course autodesk offers a great suite of tools besides max and maya we've had guests on here before who are weapon and vehicle artists or huge fans of using fusion architects using autocad it's it's a huge amount of tools if you're serious about 3d software and utilizing it to be the best artist that you can be and on to today's episode what's up everybody welcome to another episode of game dev unchained the number one game of the podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof i am your host brandon fam and with me a special guest for long time listeners don't be confused this is not a roundtable news episode it's an actual

topic that we have at hand ray graham what's up ray how you doing man what's happening man how you doing all right all right uh just to kind of make it separate in case people are coming upon this by itself can you give a short intro who you are where are you from and where are you hidden what yeah i've done this so well yeah so yeah i'm i'm ray graham i'm uh i'm an engineer i've been in the video game industry for about 22 years my background is on is in graphics engineering i'm currently a technical director over at unity software right now and um yeah and i've been making a lot of a lot of video games over the years i'm originally from toronto ontario canada but i'm over here living in the bay area these days awesome man so uh of course we've been long-time friends for a while you've been in leadership positions for a long time so i thought

when when talking about this particular topic is like who's perfect who's more perfect than rick graham himself to come on and and talk about to some a very sensitive issue to others is like enough course i think we uh if you haven't read the title it's about diversity right and the reason why i think is a perfect time to kind of talk about this is it is coming into a new age of game development which is remote working and we we talked about that in the past year how remote working is kind of opening up a lot of borders uh and i think uh healthily giving a lot more representation in especially western studios where uh location was a factor and when whether or not to hire a certain group of people or certain types of people right and i feel like that has kind of uh increased uh in terms of the different diversity and different uh culture being introduced into a workplace that's my general

thought like what have you seen the last couple of years uh in your own experience and kind of around the area or through friends yeah well i don't know like i don't know if i've seen it changed that much honestly um i think um i i see a little bit of progress now that coved and we're trying to we're hiring folks um more than just in the bay area or in like specific locations so we're kind of opening it more to to other states in the us that are a little bit more that may be a little more diverse or at least uh you have a little more um of a larger pool of different different types of books right so like you know hiring you know we're hiring people like in florida and in georgia and in in texas and getting a little bit more a mix of what you would usually find if you were to hire folks like say in the san francisco area right um but like in terms of overall changing

in the numbers or any sort of increase or positive change i don't necessarily think i'm seeing that per se you know what i mean what would you say is the biggest factor that's preventing that is it just too s it's just a natural slow effect or do you think there's something more with biases within a workplace still i'm going to say bias but nobody cares yeah okay right like like i said i say video game companies just don't care and and and they and they just want to hire folks and be done with it and keep pushing and then the ones that are like oh yeah we do care like they're doing it in a in a performative way and then they're not netting any results and they don't track the results and then they don't hold themselves accountable to their results and then nothing changes yeah like something that i joke about the last couple years is kind of like the same

yeah it's like it's very marketable right now to say that you're doing you're pushing for diversity within the workplace right and um once that those headlines are out like you said no one really follows up on that studio all right how exactly you know it's been two years later let's take a look around the studio we never really get that follow-up article uh on on these certain studios that announces it right from the beginning and you're saying like yeah no one really does that uh it's just all for face at face value right yeah but like also i think you're you're also kind of insinuating that there's a whole lot of studios coming out and saying this and there isn't though right like for game studios yeah game studios is only there's only a handful like there is a handful and they all seem to be in san francisco for sure that's right there is like this like yeah you're right there's a false pretense that somehow everything seems to be better the only reason why i think there is a

natural evolution to this you know the things that you're doing at gamehead the things that i'm seeing at gamescom online there seems to be groups of people where game development and education hasn't really been available to that group and now is because of online or just community just putting more awareness into it so i think again it might be five ten years where that group of graduates is going to the workplace um but my question is is at a leadership position do you see resistance and biases still that's keeping these students uh from from getting there actually no like i think especially now at least in my experience i have not seen any like real biases right i see a lot of folks want to learn more want to know what's out there um there is a lot of focus on on you know the youth and the work that

i do at game is and getting them internships and trying to grow the grow the pipeline right um but there are also folks in the pipeline which are folks already in the pipeline and you just have to know how to reach out to them and how to approach them right and so i think there's like a two pronged approach right yes build up more youth get more youth interested apprenticeship programs mentorship programs internships like like do that work for sure right and actually do that work put your money where your mouth is and fund those kind of those kind of programs and and really put the effort in um and then the other part of it is like actually find the folks that are that are already out here you know what i mean like if i snap my fingers i get i could get a whole deaf team of diverse folks together right so there's really no excuse um that other that game companies can't find somebody or anything like that like

you know like they're out there you just have to know where to go right yeah there was a funny story coincidentally today i was talking to like a former uh colleague and she was kind of recounting this this story how um just being a woman in the industry that she faced very uh casual and subtle biases where an idea is presented and then uh gets rejected and then five minutes later a male a male artist would suggest the same thing and suddenly it's a good idea and it was funny because i've i've heard that story from another friend a few years ago saying the exact same thing as she was a designer and then same idea was suggested five minutes later and then that was accepted and it was not out of chaos-ness or maliciousness but it's one of those things where uh there is like a certain prejudice when there is a physical trait

involved right i mean it's just one of those things when it is not on purpose but those little things do sneak in um you know uh when i talk to larry you know he was facing that as a designer too and you know being a black designer is very unique uh in in this industry right who i say it like that though well it's true it is one of those things it's it's but it's like a biased desire is actually but yes but like in terms of ratio right yeah there is a minority uh part of that and yeah and it is an industry still like you said it isn't like a very abrasively uh halting type of industry where it's like no to certain types right but it's like those little biases that i do find a lot because we are you know the best recommendations are the ones that usually gets hired

and if you tend to hang out with people that looks like you who thinks like you uh it's it's very familiar to to kind of go into workplace that are the same types of people right yeah designers especially probably engineers kind of the same kind of experience it's just very similar types right yeah and i i think that's the undervalued and you're saying that is sills kind of the same thing that's still happening right or is it getting better a little where you feel like it's getting better mixed up right now no i don't think i don't i don't necessarily think it's that much like maybe there's i think there's more folks in the industry in general right there's more um more diverse like then the numbers are seemingly increasing but i think the numbers on the non-diverse folks is also increasing i think the industries is growing right and so because the because the percentages kind of stay

the same the same right right um and like in terms of yeah like the you know yeah we hear all the stories from from our women for our female or women uh colleagues that um whether our issues with um their ideas getting discounted or or like how they have to stand up for themselves more or where there's all these all sorts of like you know um interactions that are kind of like like our pc our preconceived notions of how yeah the gender constructs work and all that like that that of course is always going to be that's always something that's at play um and in terms of like you know for me for me like i don't know if i've ever i've had you know i've told my story's only podcast before about like some sort of like super over things that i've noticed but um but but nothing but like the the day-to-day stuff i don't know if i've ever really noticed they're paying much mind and i just and i just have

kept pushing right and and just do my job do it well and and then maybe one day somebody will recognize it right and it's kind of worked out that's kind of worked out for me yeah um and i really haven't really like i do i am mindful of how i act at work yeah i have my vlog what i say i'm working all those all those things make sure people are are not careful afraid afraid or scared right do people get intimidated because you are a big guy right you're like i always forget how tall you are whenever i i do see you in front of me or like over six two six three right yeah well does that play a factor in and you do your authoritative suggestions but i think i think i think it's kind of a mix right where i'm a six foot two man in general so okay that kind of works in my favor but then i'm also six foot two black man

at the same time so that i gotta types to that i gotta balance that right you know what i mean right so um so yeah it's one of those things where where it's uh it's it's hard to say is is there a thing where you're just talking normal and people just perceive it as more aggressive than like your regular sound like for for women there is like this misconceived notion that if they have an opinion it's like oh she's super bossy right when she's just saying what other people you know what i mean like women do uh tend to like my colleagues do kind of complain about how that just a regular suggestion can come off as bossy when it's just her saying it as a male would is there an aggressive like bias with you where people just say well why are you saying it in that way when you're just saying something right well yeah well like that's that's you know larry talked about this before too you actually try to

speak calmly and really very controlled yeah it really um yeah make sure that emotion is nowhere in what you're saying you know um you know of course that hasn't always worked out for you like in the past i've definitely lost my kool-aid yeah but uh but you know but um but it's definitely um it's definitely over over the years so something i've been i tried really hard to to keep calm and not really enter any emotion into it you know what i mean that's crazy man sometimes that goes against you too because the people are like i want to know if something's super important or serious and you just seem calm all the time and it's like well well without trying to tell you it was a complete disaster and get all worked up and then you say hey bro calm down it's like hey ray why are we missing these mouse and it's like well steve i told you that if we do too much that we're going to go over the schedule it's like why are you so chill about we're going to miss this deadline is

like i told you five weeks ago this might happen no i do remember that larry was like just remembering larry when i talked to him like he he always had because i've seen both sides right they're super calm and and polite and you know just him being himself so i was like oh this is all larry but then when he he it wasn't until he illustrated that he had a specific toe network where i was like you're right you do speak a certain way at work versus how we hang out where i it was kind of shocking to me be to not realize that um being his friend for so long right so and of course for me i don't do any of that i'm just i'm just ridiculous at all stages right just impolite and there is a comfort that i kind of take advantage of just being in my skin that i i don't really think beyond that until

i i talk to you guys and realize the different experiences that that has to happen and it's it's kind of bizarre and it's those little biases that i do realize that add up and it gets tiring to keep up and thankfully you were able to kind of push past that and do what you need to do to get to where you are um but you're saying your counterpart you know being a female there is extra obstacles that are somewhat hard to kind of get past to a leadership role right um yeah sometimes there's yeah i think there's obstacles for everybody you know what i mean and then some folks some folks have a little bit easier time at it at it right and then other others do not and and and a lot of it is there's a lot there's a lot that goes into it right there's a whole lot of um a lot of the leadership roles and things like that it's people like that dude i think that dude could be a great leader you know what i mean that's really what

it takes a lot of times right yeah and if and if that's the and if that's really what it takes a lot of the times then a lot of people are getting cut out of that yeah for sure if you're not if you're not assertive if you're not strong right and then if you're a woman and you are assertive and you're strong then it's kind of like what's wrong with her right and so so there's all this like um double-edged double-edged sword and stuff in lines you have to really balance to really um kind of kind of break through in into that realm you know and it's yeah i think it's hard and i think there's a lot of biases and preconceived notions that are at play there like unconsciously too right like a lot of just like unconscious conscious stuff like just you know um you know you know there's teams that are like hey like i'm i'm struggling to hire women and diverse folks and how how can i do it where can i go how do i how do i make it happen right and then me i'm like i'm like man i don't know most my team is diverse on

women like you know you like and the the the way that the way that is because you hang out with well i hang with those people i know them and they come to me also because why because i am i am uh familiar yeah in my own in my own right right yeah so like i i i can attract those people just because i am not the same standard thing right and also my network is more diverse right so if i need i still hire people that i know but i just know more diverse people yeah you know what i mean um and and that's that's the i think that's the the heart of it's the important thing right and if you don't have those things that you have actually have to actively work at those things instead of focusing on oh how quickly can i get this head count closed yeah you have to focus on okay well let me actually target the right people yeah right yeah i think the like a lot of the

confusion when it comes to this that that that on the other side offense right obviously i'm not on that side but like these force hires these force initiatives you know uh what was it that program in the united states that really kind of hurt on all sides the um affirmative action stuff right we have data from that that the way that was handled was a failed experiment because the people that got those positions felt uh like they were being judged not by their skill but because you know was given to them and the people their colleagues just felt like it was given to them kind of cheating out from the more um uh more more uh more confirmed more it's uh i can talk all day about this quite frankly and i will not i know i agree with you right because there is a certain because within within the game industry there is something about just go back to grade school right you sit at the lunch table with

people that you know that you're familiar with that is like you right and and if there is only a small group uh at every school or every studio in this case that that group will always remain small all right and like you said it won't be attractive it won't be magnetizing to that similar group and so there is a fundamental flaw with a lot of how our studio are set up and currently yes we are at a percentage that have remained the same right uh the industry is growing there are more studios but the percentage is the same and without a huge change or influx that percentage will never really fluctuate right is what you're saying um even with media and we're kind of seeing with our cousin entertainment let me finish my thought real quick like the entertainment industry with the movies they're they're really doing like like disney for example a huge diversity push right and uh for the first time as a asian

seeing this many asian actors right this hasn't happened since bruce lee right this is a huge wow i was like i can my son can actually talk to me and say i want to be an actor i won't be just laughing in his face anymore i was like oh yeah that could be could be the time because there's a good shot at this point for the jobs that are available and that required a huge awareness and i don't think people are saying that those asian actors are cheating out of any other race actors it's like it's just more opportunities and more of the content is tailored towards asian americans so it makes sense um and i think they just made pretty big strides versus the game industry the last few years and is it the the reasons i listed what do you think what what's the main factor that made the movie industry just so much quicker to adopt these things uh and not to say without any resistance

there's still a lot of like you know the whole star wars hate thing you know yeah but okay yeah about to say this first i'm surprised you didn't start off this episode shouting out aapi history month like big up asian american pacific islander history book you know you got to pick up your peoples and your brothers and sisters and and this is the month that we're celebrating that pick up to allah this is our month yeah uh even claim it claim it bro yeah and then the other no yeah and then the other part is movie industry still racism oh yeah of course and and um you're seeing more asian stuff when you need a nation person these days now they actually are going into their well of like five asian actors yeah pulling and pulling them out like every asian movie has to have aquafina in it you know what i mean

right killing [Laughter] [Music] what's that saying uh the the ocean raises all boats so she's the ocean right now maybe she's she's opening the door for other folks to come in yeah sure yeah yeah um but yeah you know what i mean like so so the pool is still super small and there's like in starved for things that when we get a little bit of something where we're happy about it if you have a black panther right like we got we got the black panther stuff for like oh my god finally yeah um you know there's there's a lot more work to do there right and a lot more and and and people are doing the work and it's and it's happening right but i wouldn't necessarily just say oh man the movie industry seems to have gotten it and what's up with video games ah we are we aren't there yet bro we aren't there yet but i would i would say in terms of progress the last

few years there seems to be such a a tenderness uh an intention on that side to kind of do what they can do in influx i think a lot of it too has been um access right and i will say this about the game industry it's becoming so much easier to have an idea and put a game out uh nowadays and i think that is the ultimate answer for diversity and and welcoming game developers and basically removing gates and barriers and biases right um well where we see the most diversity game industry is definitely there like in the indie space right any space small small indie teams they're they're you know non-traditional methods of getting into game development better access to tooling better access to information and then they're able to make something special because because they are coming at it from a different um vantage point yeah you know what i mean or somebody's from the industry and then they leave and then they hire diverse folks which

then themselves are diverse right like there's a lot of different um like i've seen a lot more progress at least in the indie space then let's say in in triple a right what triple a is about we need to get this thing done we need to hire other people you know and and let's hire them from the other studio down the road or wherever else right so let's go to that right so the indie space right now there whoever my friends let's make again the triple a space the barrier before has been the location and and going to these interviews and looking a certain way and then being judged and either passed or fail right but because they're um you know we'll talk about in the round table though how the gdc survey kind of showed like last year that was really interesting but one of the biggest thing was an increase of um personnel within a studio right all games pretty much got delayed or

pushed back because of covid but we're also seeing you know a desperateness of basically of those situations of hiring pretty much anything that that anyone that fits the bill right uh you know these zoom hires are not as demanding they're not as intensive uh and it's more about qualifications less than how do i feel about you or how do i feel about working next to you right um i don't i don't know if that benefits i think it does candidates like i'm not i'm not sure honestly i guess it isn't one of those things that it's like if we get like a non-minority on this panel it's very hard for them to like you're right i think i do have biases right i mean and if i ask you on youtube hires and like he says i'm just doing what i've been doing this is i'm inviting the the best candidates that happen to be a minority or not right i'm just hiring the best candidate so it's very hard to kind of pinpoint like

well is is the zoom higher actually a benefit to i know by location it is yeah and by default that helps right yeah i think that's the only thing it's like it's like the location right if you're gonna hire somebody remotely the chances that you can get a more diverse higher but higher interval these is increased right if you if you look in the right places like i don't know if like seeing somebody in person is a much you get a much more empathetic connection than somebody else they're there in person so over soon it's easy to be like oh it's a it's a black dude turn up turn off the camera and the interview right now is it's a black dude is that real though like i feel like in person so in person you feel like uh it removes more biases because you're spending longer with the person and yeah like i think human beings have more empathetic connections when they're when they're seeing someone maybe that's true so you think the internet is actually making it work

that's an interesting thought man maybe i don't know like i have no biases so it's very hard to get my mind inside that head [Laughter] of how to recklessly hire right um also i don't even think like right now everybody's like oh yeah we're gonna start looking into remote work right but i don't think like we talked about this before i don't think the triple a companies are no i'm here i think your initial discussion at the beginning you know at some point i'll replay your profi our prophetic you know all our prophetic like hypothesis during the covenant and seeing it's happening yeah mostly all my friends from aaa companies are basically going back in september reversing all their stance about like all those talks about fridays and maybe thursday or two day a week in the workplace is being completely squashed now like it's not even a question and it's like special cases only now uh so that's becoming the reality because uh

the i would say as a large experience uh experiment the game industry at least in the triple a sector prefer being in the office um there was only a small quantity that were actually efficient at home and that's the sad reality uh that i'm accepting i thought everybody at home would be awesome because it removes all the politics in the office but it it just really exposed a lot of people who are self-sufficient and those who are not um and a majority are not self-sufficient unfortunately but there's also people there i i i don't understand it but there's people that are way more extroverted and want that social connection they feed off of other people's energy yeah yeah yeah and i think they call it emptiness inside it's a little sidetracked but i i see the pandemic as people like basically sitting in a room and staring

at themselves and the people who liked themselves were having a tough time but still writing it okay and mostly want to stay at home and continue that way and people who couldn't stand just sitting stay static uh just really didn't like what they were seeing and need is distractions that's my thing like some people just like people he turns out turns out some people just like people this is enough people don't i have you on my tv over there that's all i need dude that's all i need bro i can tell if you're hireable just from this [Laughter] but it's a very interesting thing that you're you're bringing up that that's actually giving me a second thought that the internet because of the distancing is actually giving people more of a pass on potential candidates because they're not they're missing that connection that only is a available through physical uh presence

i mean like i mean if you if you seriously want to talk about like you know hiring more people from diverse backgrounds and stuff like that you know it's really about processes that you put in place at your job in order to enable that right and and where are you targeting people are you um looking at your job descriptions and and uh and doing a pass on them so that it doesn't automatically like and this is not about dumping down qualifications or anything like that it's more about you know using the right kind of language right so if you say stuff like i'm looking for a rock star i'm looking for a code ninja or you know like yeah words like words like that it immediately turns a lot of people away or turns a lot of people off right there there is something about a younger person coming in and seeing either someone that's similar in a leadership position because it kind of makes them feel more comfortable about right oh that is

possible yes that is possible and also a lot of people are like this would be the first time ever i've ever had a black boss or a woman boss or do you hear that did they say this out loud i've heard that a few times yeah how does that make you feel does that make you feel prouder is like why are you so caught up in that like why is that such a thing to you it's like i just don't know like i just i understand it you get it yeah and and i i was like damn i wish i wish i could say that you're the first that's what every first says i wish i had that yeah yeah yeah i wish i had that but like about the same time i um it's a lot of pressure too right is that you're uh you're a role model you gotta live up to that right and make sure that you're doing a good job so um but yeah but like it's it's i i understand totally where that comes from so this being a slow turn like is like you said like i i do agree with you

there doesn't seem to be such a huge percentage shift right it's more people there's more of us around in these studios right but it's not like huge so what what is the fix right i mean because right now there is like this other side of the coin where it's basically racism against whites right in a way where like male whites we can't look at you as a candidate hey some people say that right but that's well well that's you know what i mean it's like we can't we yeah it is illegal but it's like we're we're we're specifically looking at diversifying right so so when people hear that they're basically we're specifically not looking at white males anymore here's the thing yeah here's the thing right i i have heard people say this right right and it's straight up illegal you shouldn't do it right yeah you shouldn't um yeah i i kind of look at what the and and there's there's little evidence

that this works but i still think it's a good idea right um the the nfl has the the rudy the rooney rule which is basically if they when they hire a head coach the teams have to balance it yeah one black head coach i see and um and of course a lot of teams you know you could imagine a lot of teams just like all right fine we'll just get a guy in be not interested in them at all yeah and then say we interviewed one and then i are right like right teams teams definitely could do that um it has not yielded a huge increase in uh blackhead coaches in the nfl there's been there's been a few more but it's still a very small number yeah um something like that at for game industry or tech jobs or whatever um could be something that makes sense right where you're like hey let's target specifically women other other background folks black asian lgbt whatever

right let's target that make sure we have a diverse panel of candidates and if somebody comes in there that is qualified as the abilities and has the skills we hire them right i also think that though teams also should make room for what if you do get diverse folks in and they're not as good as some white guy or whatever right hire the white guy because because you want somebody who's skilled and qualified in that role right yeah you should also have space for the folks like i think i see potential in this person right and i think i think i can grow this person to be where they need to be right right and then leave the space and leave the time for that as well right and and um and and do it that way if if you can't find the super skills candidate um that you need right like maybe maybe higher you know and some companies are gonna soak up you're like oh we don't have

time for that or we don't have the money to invest right that's fine if you're serious about this yeah then you do you you you make time and you and you get the money to do that if you're serious if you're not well then you don't do that right does the does the end kind of justify the means in this type of situation where you know as a business owner or whatever right you know they would basically go for the option that you just said right what's what's cheaper faster i just need to see feel filled i don't have the luxury of time on my side to kind of look for this very uh specific initiative right yeah um so it's almost as if you know there's a job in industry called like i don't know like there's a job in industry where people's job is to find people to hire like they go out and they try to find the right person for the roles

and so like and their whole job is just finding people yeah and like if you give them instructions they go out and get fired but what does that call again i don't understand what they're all right so like it's not like you know like all you like come on come on man right so okay so yeah so if you put the effort in right um and and say this is something we're gonna do and build up the right networks um it's not a problem you know or it shouldn't be that much of a problem do you think it's the degenerate because i see i i feel like the people who resist the idea the most are the people who just hate being told what he or she cannot or cannot or can do type of thing you can't tell me because this is my thing right why are you telling me what to do with my thing yeah exactly i think that that's the attitude mostly and it's not only it's not really because they're against the cause it's just the idea it's a very american attitude be

honest of like stop telling me what i could or could not do or can and cannot do i bet it is this right um if you want to hire me and i ask you about diversity you're like nah i don't care about that stuff yeah well well you ain't hiring me right you know what i mean right so um so like you know it's it's it's your decision right um but but then like there's you just have to be willing to accept the cost of that decision right yeah i mean do and this is getting personal right it doesn't have to be present it could be past have you ever felt that kind of attitude towards you or for feeling in like in posture you're not obviously you're super confident and competent right but do you ever get that that weirdness from co-workers that you beat someone out of a job

that they treat you differently because of that because you've been in leadership position pretty much everywhere right so yeah well if i pretty much could track yeah if i did i didn't notice it honestly yeah if it did happen i didn't notice it but um but i do you know like of course i do there's there are times where you're like man why am i here am i good enough for this i don't know unless everyone yeah yeah yeah at least for me it's when i'm like debugging something i can't figure it out i'm like really why did i imposter syndrome yeah that's real right like that stuff is real for sure um but yeah like but when it comes to like how other people feel like i haven't really i don't really pay too much like i just i look to to the people that do have my back and are i've had some pretty good people that have been supportive um supportive and really really helped me along the way for sure yeah um

and so like i'm really appreciative of those folks more so than you know i can't i can't think about the haters bro i don't know well i mean what's unique about you is you work both in the game industry and tech at apple before right so yeah are you saying the ratio is the same or even at those tech jobs is it worse like the percentage-wise in terms of i think the percentage is low period across tech and in video games in video games is worse and then if you think about games is worse than tech right now yeah yeah because it's just way way smaller industry way more niche way more um special knowledge that you have to know right um and then and then when you start going into the realm of like um engineering in the video game industry like super niche like like it gets really really tiny at that point yeah it's pretty small it's already small in tech but then it's really bad in in the video game industry right well what

what is tech doing differently that's better than games in terms of just percentage right like yeah okay so the diverse crowd tends to lean towards tech more than games of course right because like like then you're gonna get into the whole like we're gonna get involved subject of like um the wealth gap right and a good way of closing that wealth gap is to give people more opportunities for higher paying jobs right yeah so now even if you're a black youth that always wanted to make video games their whole life yeah um and then it comes time to feed your family and somebody's like well okay here you're gonna get paid this and you work seven days a week for 13 hours every day or you're gonna get paid double that nine to five nine to five five days a week right like and we'll pick you up that will give you really nice food and

it will give you bonuses and stock options like i mean the choice the choice becomes obvious if you're not really about that video game life like if you're not really about like if you're really about i'm doing this to better my life and defeat my family right the choice is obvious all right you know what i mean um the people that are in video games are your vehicles because i love it like they love it right and they're willing to sacrifice right for it yeah so i'm hearing that you don't care about your wife and family and putting more food on the table and you took a selfish decision i've clearly i've clearly made a lot of bad decisions trust me right like so it stayed in the industry it made a lot of bad decisions because i want to make a great game right so what is so is it is it that is it the challenging because i hear this a lot from engineers especially right where you guys have opportunities all over the world especially in the bay area at these

awesome companies and you've been there and you came back to games right is it that compelling obviously you're saying it is but like is this really because you've been through it all you know how games are we've been on this podcast we do these roundtable it's ridiculousness um it's like unfair uh all the time right uh yeah like i know i come on we come on here a lot and we talk a lot of trash about video games a lot of trash about hiring a lot of trash about crunch and overtime and all that kind of stuff i yeah i would i wouldn't want to be anywhere else quite frankly that's crazy um [Laughter] and i've and like i think i found the right spot where it's it's a good mix of of the two where it's not completely in but it's also not completely out and i still really care about the industry a lot right you know what i mean and also that's i think that's also why we

criticize the industry too because we care about it we want to see it mature into into something that is like make it change make it better good good for employees and good for families and all that kind of stuff right so yeah that's how i that's how i see how i was at yeah you're right i was at apple doing some stuff and and yeah and i just missed it man i just missed making video games yeah well i would say like you being in the position you are back in video games and having such a wealth of experience in tech and games i think a lot of young students and young listeners are inspired by that and uh i mean that alone is a huge huge huge influence right especially with what you're doing at game head like them seeing you at such a high position over unity and everything um i i think that you know it's one of those 10 15 years your things before we see in fruition of actually happening and i think that's the biggest thing that people just who are on the other side of the fence they

don't realize the long-term goals of this push right they just see these immediate uh uh they just have this immediate reaction it's like oh he's taking a job from my white guy friend over there right it's like it's not about that it's not it's not about taking jobs it's just a fair shot right it's more about just fairness and judgment at the beginning yeah and like i'm seeing like especially with the latest you know the latest events of the last year or two yeah um like the things happened like last year since the last march right yeah um i'm seeing a lot of company like there's been a kind of an awakening right and then a lot of people kind of a lot of companies that are kind of had their head in the sand like i've kind of come up and they're like okay i'm willing to invest some money into this and and do something actually meaningful yeah so there's a lot of you know black developer funds and and and companies hiring apprenticeships or internships and specifically targeting um

underrepresented uh community programs and so they can so they can find the right pool of people instead of going to all the same tired places that they usually go yeah um and i'm seeing some uptick with this like like in the last you know like the last year right and so it will take a lot long time and especially because also because of covet even though we do game as we've been able to reach more students because we're doing it all online right um we're actually reaching more right so yeah like yeah maybe maybe that will have some some all of this stuff as bad as it was we'll have some positive positive effects um but but you know yeah we won't see that anytime soon maybe in next few years right well the initiative is because okay is it because people were at home or all these funds and stuff what exactly is it about last year that people are worse just creating

you know and then a lot of white folks got real guilty all of a sudden they were like oh wait black people getting killed really i never knew this well we're kind of going through our eighth thing right now it's been happening for like 20 years people are attacking our old people and women right now then yeah i'm sorry i'm we're at the beginning of that of seeing funding for asian americans it's pretty crazy man like folks folks are finally being a wolf into that now it seems and and so there's a lot of effort there's there's a lot of companies that are putting some efforts behind that yeah it's it's been a crazy year man and like it's kind of bizarre to kind of see my peeps and be beaten such cowardice and i again it's i think a lot of the attacks are just conveniently attacking asians because of the frustrations you know this past year and just mentally unstable people like regular people aren't attacking people it's just mentally frustrated mentally

you know disturbed people are doing this but it's enough to kind of like hey hold on man this is this is becoming an issue right this is an issue and so it's always some old asian folks that they're they're they're fighting they're not fighting like young i really haven't seen obviously they i haven't seen some young folks getting getting no it's always old people women it's it's easy targets basically like if you want to go and hurt someone right now asian people are like a prime friend i just i would have seen somebody try something with you wearing where your little right best friend i'm waiting for it i even joked with my friend that we should like dress up like in in in makeup and and stuff and walk around like we're having trouble just to incite uh and uh i i think historically i've said this

before man we were like uh you know asians are the model citizen and we usually never really stand or or fight against anything right so we are easy targets in past terms and i think now it's kind of waking our community up of like you know enough is enough um and not accepting it anymore uh because it's gotten because of the internet because of the videos being shared and going viral it's so upsetting um like i don't i've only been able to watch like half of stuff like a video it's so tough man but it it is one of those things just to tie it back to biases it is alarming to see people kind of having the that effect of um waiting for someone else to help right you see a lot of these videos about like bystanders just continue

bystanding right they don't really jump in and a lot of that is the media a lot of it it's like shock seeing it happening in real life after being exposed to it to to to tv and games all the time right uh it's still very alarming to see wow is this is this how i would react if i see something happening right it's it's i think a lot of people would would at first say confidently that no i would help but it's hard to kind of imagine you reacting any differently seeing these reactions most people most people most people want help yeah it's you know especially like in some situations like like you helping could just end up getting yourself like killed yeah right you know what i mean and so like you don't know what to what to expect right yeah and like what do you what do you really like what are you really gonna do like you know you're gonna make a citizens arrest and open sit on the person until the cops show up

like like nah man uh like really there's certain areas to hit yeah the disabled person i can show you later for yourself yeah we'll talk about that later but but uh but but i ideally like you know you know i i ain't tried to be fighting no dude with a knife or a gun or whatever right if he had one right oh am i gonna find you what are you saying am i gonna find you in a video just standing there when my people are being beat up is that what you're saying you probably would see that yeah like i i can't say that like maybe i would i reacted for the in the moment and assess if i should do something right but like i can't say here sit here and say with a straight face that i would be like oh yeah man i'll jump in there and like be boxing this dude up like nah man like i can't i can't say that would be me grab something and throw it at him you know you're pretty sick how's your throwing arm dude it's been a while since i've been in a

fight like a long long while so uh yeah your last promotion [Laughter] well like this is kind of say to that like there is like a mob mentality thing like when when people are individualized asked to do something they rarely do it until a group movement happens so this kind of tied back to what we're saying with the diversity push it really does take a whole group like a whole company to be behind an idea for real changes to happen and i think what you're saying is the reason why the push have been slow is just it sounds good as pr but there isn't like a lot of follow-up uh to make it so and uh and you also have to address the entire thing right yeah problems the entire pipeline um like you know job descriptions how you're hiring how you're recruiting um what is the what does the interview panel look like and then when people are hired what are you doing to make sure that

they stay you're right you make them feel supported and and that's pretty deep that i have a hostile working environment and have flexible policies for people with families and like i mean it goes on and on right so you you have to make sure you do all those all those right things what are you doing for purchases what are you doing for mentorships what are you doing for your community yeah like i'm starting to hear the business owner guy saying like wait why why am i going through all this can i just find someone quick all of this you deter i was on your side and now you deter me from but it's true like if i do feel i usually am comfortable with people in interviews right if i were interviewing for a job but i am instantly comfortable when i see like a nation across in a similar position and he's interviewing me and says oh all right cool now we're good right i do have that feeling and uh it is like that to make

someone feel welcome at the very beginning uh it's super intimidating can i walk in a room be basically judged the whole time right and um and just seeing no one looking like you like i i do feel you probably have that position more than i have in my career right well not more not more than like that's every situation every situation has been like every right and and so like at that point when it's every situation you know you're going into it like that like you know like i don't even expect that yeah it's it's uh right and so then when you when you if you do see it you're like oh that's that's a surprise right but but you you're going in there completely not expecting that right you're about okay let's get let's get this job okay yeah just need to get a job and make a cool game right yeah um you're not even thinking about well if there's nobody else here like me then like i'm gonna be unhappy no like that's been that's been my entire career yeah for the most part right so that's why i feel for

women especially because most of the places i work man not a lot of women uh and it's super intimidating there is like male ego energy all right it's like a frat party pretty much in a lot of these videos right there's video game ego that's really for what it is like just dudes in the industry yeah so it must be odd to walk in a room full of dudes right and just be judged although i thought like when i worked at ubi there was a lot of really strong powerful women working in ubisoft and which which is kind of well that's interesting that took which is really interesting given all of the latest drama surrounding ubisoft right but like there's a lot of like really you know solid women engineers and like tech directors but it started from the top up because of jade being like the executive right so

that probably played an influence yeah but even before jade became the executive there was there was a lot of women okay it's always been a thing then yeah yeah is it a more canadian thing then or than is it united states-ish or what would you do no idea no idea but but still but still at ubisoft though past a certain level it was still only dudes of course right but it seemed like there was more it was definitely the company i worked out with with the most with the most women for sure well i will say when you know i used to kind of visit you guys at unity every every every week at lunchtime uh unity has super diverse crowd it feels like more so than other game companies i mean you guys are engine company but like a lot more than i am used to well yeah i'll point out yeah unity is a tech company right yeah and so like at tech companies there's people in other departments and doing other things there's a lot of people that have nothing to do with

games or they're doing uh do marketing doing sales doing i think um right like so it's way more mixed it's it's kind of the demographics are more representative of like a tech company right i see and then when you look at those numbers it's like yeah there's a lot of women right but it's still it's like you know 50 yeah in it you know you know i will say the same with that and of course and of course there's more women than like joe blow video game company right yeah i will say the same about uh because i was a pakistanis while you're i was up there right and it was yeah again not a regular game company it was a mobile company uh it was its own separate thing and it was super diverse the most diverse company i ever worked at to be honest where it was like it felt like every not every fourth table but every fifth table or something was a woman uh or or just diverse yeah but also i will point out and this

is one of my pet peeves is just because you have a smattering of women does not make your company diverse oh right you know like it's it's you know you have to address all of the the colors there's a difference all of the different aspects i'll say the aspects of that right and there's also multiple intersections and cross sections right yeah all the way up people like hey man there's a lot of women at this company right how many of them are black men right and your answer changes drastically right you know what i mean um and and so then it's like oh like are we really diverse then absolutely so uh right well right well i would say this right yeah it's not crazy but a lot of it again tracing back to when i went back to school the ratio was around the same as in going into these workplaces right so

some might argue i think we know the answer the exposure in in certain groups haven't been there for game to them because i barely knew it was a thing when i was going through school as being a career path right so these communities are starting to bring up like what you're doing at game heads and and stuff to kind of broaden the possibility of being a game developer and then naturally in these classrooms are getting filled up and then naturally studios are going to get filled up right so is it one of those things where women are not quite there that is representing 50 in the classroom because you know these schools take anybody right there's no there's no biases there they'll just yeah money i'll take you right so i think one of those things like have there been a study in these classrooms versus studio is it is it reflective of that because i i don't think most schools are 50 percent women just yet right or diverse in that way yeah i had this

discussion with somebody else like a friend of mine and like i don't know exact numbers for women but i know for like say black computer science graduates the percentage that graduate versus the the percentage you end up with in the tech in the jobs yeah like in the tech industry jobs it drops right by how much it's just like a huge drastic job yeah it drops enough where like to take it noticeable three percent right yeah and and and the number of the potential graduates is higher right at least that's right see that those studies i wish would be more yeah discussed and available because that is a clear indication of now yeah now that percentage is still pretty low right it's not like it's not like 100 representative of the population at large um but but there is a drop right now is the drop

not prepared for the job like don't have the the right then get the right um yeah like the school failed you right or bias in the interview process right or you just decided to do something else right like there's other there's factors that can go into that right there is but there is a drop right i would then say being the artist telling the programmer i would say just compare that percentage drop to the counterpart right the white uh student right is it the same right and then if it's the same then then that's standard but and it's and it's probably not but then also there's there's there's at least in the u.s right there's also a disparity between access to education right right so even if you did have education then there's there's disparity between quality of education right right right and so like all these things you got to get a play into but i i think that yeah i mean i wish um

maybe at some point we'll we'll add on to the discussion but that that part of the study is so important where i don't hear too much about that even in these tech industry and marvel and all this stuff i wish they would just talk about that more because i think that's such it's more quantitative to what's going on than speculative right what because a lot of it we hear in like the last part of the conversation maybe the study was there but we hear in the last part of the conversation and it's it's hard to convince people of that uh without showing like hey it's very simple look at these asian actors graduating from this acting school and look at how they're not being placed in these acting jobs right or in our case you know game developers students who are wanting to be game developers and just seeing the percentage like that is a great entry point to this discussion i wish nobody warms up nobody wants to see the truth that they have bias right they much

rather say oh there's just not enough there's just not enough people right there's not it's just easier it's just there's just not enough candidates and so we have to fix that problem right but nobody really wants to say maybe there's some biases and and trapdoors in the process that also kind of whittles out people right maybe it's our our company culture or like and so then when diverse folks look at us they're like nah i'm good and then they go somewhere else or or totally don't want any parts of the industry at all because they look like now there's that does not represent me it doesn't fit yeah you don't know like i i don't fit into there that's not my vibe you know what i mean um but there's a lot of things like that that you know you have to also consider right well uh that is true man i think have you seen i guess my last question have you seen things at a workplace uh that you're like um no no thanks

all right i am i am a nerd but yes let's be real like i think i think we could clearly say that i am a nerd right of course you're not following anyone you know i went to the university of waterloo which is a mathematics and engineering school that's what it's known for um and engineering you know engineering um and so there's a lot in here except for that school right like a lot a lot and and like i just i still remember them playing like match up the gathering and in one of the rooms and i was like nope this is just too nerdy right and i thought you're gonna say the opposite oh wow all right right like so so like there were so many times where i was like i was like yeah this is not my vibe you know but you love those turn-based nerdy other digital games nerdy stuff and probably i would get into magic

if i had the right group of people to introduce me into it that way if you saw the same color yeah it worked so dialed up dialed up to like 100 there is a certain all right um i i'm starting to see what you mean now yeah yeah if you're not if you're not comfortable in the environment right like some some things just immediately make you go i don't know there are definitely things where culturally if i were to get into something like i i would look back on my culture of friends who are not into the same thing i was like would i be rejected from my group if i start playing magic again i feel like with the black community you guys have to really in it be no no there's black nerds and there's there's that play magic there's black girls that play man and i'm sure you have feelings about them yeah i know they love anime yes yes and i mean and i think if i had that group of people around me

earlier on you would pick it up yeah i would have i would have picked it up more right but like it was it was just asking too much of me right to to get into it with that group it's very true what you're saying yeah it's it's like it almost feels like a chicken in the egg thing where something needs to happen but where there needs to be a group ready to kind of make it grow but right now it's like getting to that step is so difficult um but it goes back to what you said right that's why i do the game that stuff right it's because so the kids see yeah oh there's people like me in this industry right and so i i have a chance at it too right is it is welcoming to me it is something that i can actually pursue let me try right nice that's true at least that's part of like why i do the game head stuff for sure yeah it's definitely important for sure yeah i see it but uh yeah man i want to thank you we're hitting at the top of the hour

um it's a major issue it seems to change every couple years in terms of like different perspective right it's the same thing right there's not enough people of different colors and sorts in the workplace but i feel like because of uh latest events and stuff it's always kind of great to kind of revisit of what that influence is we're talking about how coveted and forced remote working is kind of changing the little things and then um the increase of what you're seeing at game heads and and just the availability of game education is kind of making a push um you did kind of surprise me where i i did think that i thought online would remove barriers but you're saying it actually puts more up because of the less physical presence are you seeing that too like i know you you you super last question i i i know you you're doing a lot of zoom interviews and naturally you're just kind of more open

arms with people but um are you lacking connection uh more still than okay i think zoom interviews are just harder to do like in general so it's harder it's hard to assess people's skills it's harder to to really be comfortable body the body language and the subtle things that get lost in the video um get comfortable with somebody i think i think this was harder for sure do you foresee a lot of regrets when people are going back to the office and meeting these people and sitting next to him oh wow awesome i couldn't smell that through zoom bo is a real thing man like that sitting next to someone is that sounds oh first of all that sounds like video game industry certain certain people have like non-compromising bo where others are you know tolerable right but it is a thing where it's it is so important if you are going to sit next to someone you're basically sitting next to someone

b for the remainder of your time there and that's the person that you are forced to be friends with in a way um and i guess naturally that kind of lends to the conversation of why people prefer to hire their friends or people like them because they want to be tolerable they want to just go to work and be okay and comfortable and not have to be so absolutely careful it's also super easy right because you worked with the person you don't have to assess their skills exactly you know what they could do yeah just hire them because you know what they can do i'm the exact same way i hate meeting new people i was like oh you know i'm getting too old but i got a fake smile i gotta act interested you know we're we got our shots right and i'm i'm learning how to talk to people again it's like all right stare at the eyes look away don't stare too long all right look back again like all these things are i'm re-learning how to have a conversation

even though we're podcasts forever right i just am learning it again because i'm in the presence of people and reminding myself it's like oh i think he made a joke i should laugh [Laughter] to make him feel comfortable and uh i i i'm another prophecy coming here a lot of regrets are gonna be happening when people are finally meeting people for the first time after hiring him and just getting getting getting used to the quirks of people again uh it's gonna be disaster dude i think so so that's a lot of zoom hires man we'll talk at the roundtable about last year and the uptick of highers it's a lot less it's like 20 30 percent higher it's like huge amount of highers over the last year suddenly throwing them back in the office is uh it's going to be interesting it's going to be something to look forward yeah obviously we don't have space so it's true part of

the problem oh that's true yeah well i i mean i saw google trying to reconfigure their they're getting rid of all their open space did you hear all that stuff i did i didn't hear that now so the big article came out and they're kind of forcing everybody back in and the most problem the biggest problem about that is that they can't obviously have everyone in they have to space it out so there's only a certain percentage so all the dead space you know all the fun things that make a tech company fun they're basically getting rid of all that to make space of more desk and and getting rid of the uh the open floor uh philosophy that's made you know silicon valley so special they're they're like reversing all that now it's just kind of funny to kind of see how they react to that what you say made them so special but anyway all right well open space velocity was the big thing here's the weird thing right and i know it's super late and i keep kind of because you're so fun to talk to this

the strategy of going back to work it's gonna feel awkward basically i think uh now that everyone is getting back in the office and there's this huge exodus that's happening in the bay area right um just this general feeling of this is too expensive my place is too small and a lot of people i know you have friends i have friends have left and uh and thought they could keep doing remote and now they're being asked back so how much of the fallout how many people are we losing from that um forget diversity just general people right yeah i think that's a good question like i don't know if it's gonna be a huge amount but i think there is gonna be some percentage of folks that are like i ain't coming back you know right right and either the company's gonna have to fire them or or let them work remote right or they'll just find a company investor to promote and there's plenty of those

these days so um so i could imagine there would be some non-trivial percentage of folks that that happened to um i one thing about the very you say people leave this area i'm also seeing people uh moving in because the numbers are showing not just that um moving to the parts of the bay area that are not san francisco yeah yeah so people are cheaper places yeah people san francisco but i'm in my house all day long let me just at least get a house with a yard you know so they go or get a bigger house so that i can decide that i can't work from home in a more spacious environment and so they're like moving to east bay driving up east bay prices and and things like that right so we're seeing there's some movement like out of state but there's also some movement just like inside of the bay area too like into so that people can better work from home right so my super last question right yeah now that people are so this there's the

closet effect of this right like people who are left not coming back to california because california was kind of crazy this past year right and then permanently remote and not coming back to the office people who are still here don't want to stay in these mecca cities anymore and prefer to live outside in cheaper areas it also feels that this like you said is gonna hurt the diversity push right where where where where where the biggest factor is coming into an office and seeing people like you right seems to be disappearing uh because no one wants to be in the office and in these expensive areas so you're going to see less and less of us yeah well that's that's every tree i even in my current job i'm i'm seeing some folks and i'm like oh man i didn't know you were here yeah because they work remotely right so yeah yeah i could totally see that being yeah

so that's going to hurt it right this push like the social connections that can happen when you're in the office there's gonna be less less of those for sure all right so we're gonna take five steps back then cool man good good talk but yeah you just made me realize that um it's gonna be a long road i don't know what what it's gonna take to kind of reverse this but we're not gonna figure it out in this pod uh episode uh before i kind of let you go uh why don't you go share to the good people out there where they could find you on twitter and all that if they want to make a connection yeah on twitter it's uh w-a-d-a-r-a-s-s water us on twitter and linkedin is just my name ray graham all right as always you can find the the information on the link description below in this episode as well as you know the blog article dedicated to this episode

i want to thank you ray it's always a pleasure just going to talk to you i'm glad you're out and about going free got your shot um i'll probably be in the bay area this summer bro so [Music] i dig it yeah i'm here yeah i'll be there he's getting married so i got to be there but uh that's right good night man and have a good one [Music] you