Destiny’s biggest rival Warframe has had ‘two years of massive growth’

4 or 5 years ago, I think there's some people in the company who were like, "Oh, well, Warframe's peaked and that's [music] the top of it. And, you know, as it gradually goes to the west, we'll have to start something going." The last 2 years of Warframe have probably been the biggest growth in the game. Those hardware costs are not going to help. You know, I think that's another one for us when we look at Warframe, you know, we have this amazing optimization team. So, you know, you can play Warframe
[music]
on your PS5 Pro and it looks sweet, cutting edge, and you can also play it on, you know, a four generations ago Android phone.
Hello, and welcome to the Game Business Show. This week's edition is sponsored by Keywords Studios. I find Keywords fascinating because for people outside of this industry, they may not have actually heard of them, but they're huge. They're in 26 countries, they have 13,000 people all helping studios build, launch, and grow their games globally. They're all about long-term partnerships with teams, strong technology, and

connecting specialist expertise with studios in need. One thing they do is they support game developers in making their games. They offer flexible production support that can scale depending on how ambitious the companies are being. They do co-development, engineering, live ops, technical delivery, all sorts of things. The goal of Keywords is to help teams move faster, solve complex issues, and keep production connected all without losing sight of that important thing, which is the game itself. You can find out all about Keywords' development services via a link in our newsletter or via the keywordsstudios.com website. Right. Now, on to this week's episode. This week we are talking to Digital Extremes president Sheldon Carter. Now, Digital Extremes have been around since 1993. It's made some great games. It's made some not so great games. I fondly remember the 2008 Resident Evil-like shooter, Dark Sector. Um, the team were acquired by Leyou in 2014, who in turn were acquired by Tencent in 2020. But, Digital Extremes basically looks after itself and it's today best known for the

smash hit free-to-play looter shooter Warframe. Now, I love doing these interviews because it's like stepping into another world. Warframe has a huge audience and it's growing. They have their own events, they have their own approach to community. I sort of love finding out what makes these games tick. I'm also really interested in Warframe because it's managed to get bigger at a time when its major competitor, Destiny, has had to give up. Now, I spoke to Sheldon just before the event, TennoCon. This is where they showcase new demos and updates and make announcements and they actually ran that a few weeks ago. They showed some new stuff for Warframe and its sister product, which isn't still fully out yet, called Soulframe. And that game is a multiplayer free-to-play fantasy RPG. Anyway, I spoke with Carter all about Warframe, how Digital Extremes operates, its approach to Soulframe, and indeed how he feels about the end of Destiny. Check it out. Hello Sheldon, welcome to the show.
Thank you. Excited to be here. I've actually watched a few times and I get the newsletter, so I'm excited to talk to you.
Oh, brilliant. Um, you know what? I didn't realize uh that Warframe's origins were in Dark Sector.

Right? Because the weird thing about that game is I don't actually remember that much about it, but I know I played it, I know I loved it, and I know I finished it. I think I think I know I finished it. Is it a bladed weapon? Was it called the Glaive or
It was the the Glaive, yeah.
The Glaive, yeah.
Yeah, Warframe was actually based on our first pitches for Dark Sector, which was this kind of ninjas in space idea and then when it uh when it got picked up by a publisher, they you know, Resident Evil 4 was all the craze and they wanted to make it grounded in a in a you know, Eastern European city and you know, those are the days. That's the way the games industry works, but you know, we still love that game and it was it was cool to make for sure.
Yeah, the European team at D3P
Mhm.
were not far from where I live and I I used to spend a lot of time with them and
Oh yeah, good group.
I used to use it as an example of a game people You don't get many of these games anymore. Um, but I'd say I didn't realize they were the precursor to Warframe.
Yeah, that was the not quite Yeah, not quite the end of an era, but it was getting close to the end of an era for sure.
Yeah, we're getting a few of them. We're starting to get I don't know I get a

sense of the mid-tiers coming back. Not what we're here to talk about. The um Um I get a sense we're starting to see a few of those things like from Saber and stuff starting to crop up. But anyway, I was realizing how little I know about Digital Extremes. I have spoken to some people on the um team in the past, but so much has changed I think since I last probably spoke. How is it set up? You know, how many are you off there?
Yeah, yeah, no. I mean DE was started I guess now we're 31 years ago
Yeah, yeah.
by James Schmalz and that's when he was doing kind of collaborations with Epic on Unreal.
Mhm.
And so yeah, that's we started. It was doing Unreal Unreal Tournament the first Xbox Live Unreal Tournament the studio did that, which is exciting and then we just talked about Dark Sector. And then after Dark Sector we worked on a couple games and the industry kind of bottomed out on us a little bit in the middle and we were definitely that kind of middle tier and uh James took a risk. He he he kind of gambled his last million bucks to let Core Group try to make the original idea

for Dark Sector work, which was what originally what became Warframe. And that saved the studio and then you know, it's been Warframe's been running now for I guess we're getting on to 14 years. That's kind of sometimes blows my mind and yeah, there's well, there's about 500 full-time people working at DE and then of course there's a whole uh suite of contractors, part-time, great people. We have friends at Sumo that work with us from an outsourcing standpoint. So it's actually quite a huge operation now um and sometimes it's a little daunting actually when we came from such small roots.
Oh wow. I have to say I was looking at you know, I've got some market data numbers. They're not accurate numbers, but I thought I'd have a look and see how Warframe is doing and in a live [clears throat] service world that is so turbulent where there is so where people are moving from game to game and everything's changing, you seem remarkably consistent. Yeah, you know, uh at least from what I can see. What's the secret there? Is it just you've got this core audience that

just this is their game?
Yeah, I mean, what is the secret? I I need to kind of like figure that out so I could write a book or or have a great consulting gig.
Yeah, [laughter] yeah.
Um but uh I mean, we have this kind of combination of uh definitely people who've been with us forever. Like if we look at the layer cake of Warframe players that have been with us, there's still a huge amount of players from, you know, way back in 2013 that are still playing the game. So, people, you know, for this game is it's a lifestyle, it's their hobby, it's their main game. So, there's definitely that, which is great, and that just keeps kind of growing over time. And so, I guess the secret is always creating updates that you feel like, you know, as a developer, you're giving it your all. Like that you want to make something that's really cool that's going to resonate with the audience. But once it releases, being able to eat the dog food with the with the audience, having people playing it, and then, you know, realizing and being okay with the fact that we maybe didn't get it right

uh the first time, but we'll make it right. And through that whole process, just communicating, always communicating with the audience. And I think um you know, that's how you earn trust with players, and I think that's probably you know, trust-based development is probably more our philosophy than anything else uh with the community that we have. And then, you know, they do word of mouth, they do so many great things for us, and then it grows.
Well, if we just had Destiny, and I know that's a very different um loot shooter to the one that Warframe is, but when you see something like that, a game that was, you know, so giant, and suddenly it's not Well, I mean, it's still running technically, but it's like it's it's the stop with the updates.
Yeah.
I I it just shows you, I think, that it's a very competitive space.
It is.
worry you?
I mean I guess you know from our perspective it's interesting because Destiny you know there's a lot of overlap between the games you know when Destiny 1 came out I can't remember Warframe's out for a couple years when Destiny 1 came out and it really really hit us.
Oh really?
Uh when it came out.
Oh wow.
You know it's a looter shooter it's got

you know tons of marketing and really great developers on the team and Destiny 2 as well for myself it's been this evolution of you know for a while you you think about it competition and you're kind of you know aggressively wanting to to try to compete with what they're doing and over time what happens is developers from their team come on to your team. New people who you started they they learn what looter shooters are and how that works because they put thousands of hours into Destiny. And so I you know at our studio uh it was kind of a bit of a mourning when they released that news.
Oh wow.
The news in our studio was pretty pretty dour um because of just yeah just all the connection that you end up having. And I think it is the the budgets and the you know the competition to keep putting updates out. I know it's I know it's really difficult and every studio has its own culture and different ways of doing things. You know we have our uh you know seven habits that we try to live by and I again that's for the book I guess.

I'm sure but we you know we have our own our own strategies but I can't imagine with a you know a studio as big as Bungie was and they also had Marathon going on. A lot of different things pulling them in a lot of directions. So honestly for me it's more uh yeah it's more it's more I guess sadness that that it's that it's over and and you know I hope the best for all the the people there.
Well.
That's for sure.
So I'm I'm in the trade media and there was a point in time when there were lots of different trade media outlets and they were all really strong.
Yeah.
And we all wanted to beat each other. We didn't want to defeat each other and that was important.
Mhm.
And actually when it was when there was loads of them doing loads of cool things there's that rising tide where everything We We were better. We were improving. There was There was a bit of competition. We were trying new things. There's a lot of innovation, a lot of excitement. And then, of course, when things started, when one of them went down and one of them changed and stuff, actually, the whole thing went down. And I think that's the And that's why competition's so important. So, yeah, I understand like I'm sure Destiny was a thorn in your side, but also one that was ultimately good for the business. So, it's uh
I think so. I think so. And and yeah,

like I said, Bungie in general just an inspiration to us. Yeah.
One of the things I always find with games that have been around a while, I've done a few of these sort of interviews where I talked to people that have been with on games 13 years, I guess, like Warframe. Is you've got these OG players, right? And then you've got new players. Um and I've spoken to say I spoke to a bunch of these developers in the past 12 months, where this is actually a real challenge, particularly as those OG players, they get older, they have less time, all that kind of stuff. How do you balance the demands of what OG players might want versus, you know, newbies?
It is a struggle, for sure. I won't say it's easy, but I think a lot of times what you end up doing with core updates, and you know, our big temporal ones, is we usually have a way that the new player can get involved in that early. But then they still have uh they don't get to skip all the stuff that the OG players have done to get to the you know, to the end content of that.
Oh, I see.
So, they might get a preview of what's to come and and a taste of why it's exciting, but then the players who have

invested thousands and thousands of hours, well, they're they're getting you know, the really cool stuff at the end. And that that can be aspirational, or that can be something that the older players can show to the new player.
Mhm.
Our community is definitely welcoming, and so they try to bring new players in. I think Warframe has always felt like a bit of an underdog story, a little bit, just in the industry. It's It's It's one of those games that's that's been big for a long time, but not a lot of people know about it. And I think that's changing, but I think that makes our players really want to bring other people into their hobby. And I think when when you know that you're taking care of and you you're excited about it, you want to share it with other people. And so, new players, you know, it's not competitive. The game is not competitive. There's a lot of reasons to want to bring more people in and and and you know, and get get them involved in your clan and those sorts of things.
You know, I had a lovely story when I had the Fallout 76 people on. Again, a very different type of game. But, when the Fallout TV show happened and loads of people flooded into Fallout 76, a lot of that community were sitting outside the vault with like giving people cool

items and stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great.
So, they can uh they can sort of be like, you know, welcome.
Yeah, come on in. Here's some stuff. Yeah. Come on in. Yeah. I think, you know, we try to ebb and flow that, too. We usually have like something new that the new players will uh you know, that teaches and onboards them. But, then the old players get to do that cuz it's new content, so they can still go and and check it out. So, the fall story is great, and I think that's something that our our community definitely does.
Your creative director is uh Rebecca Ford.
She is, yeah.
Who I hope to speak to again actually one day. But, um she went from being community director, right, to creative director. And my initial reaction to that was, "Oh, that's quite a career shift." But, thinking about it, I imagine those two roles aren't radically different from one another with a game like Warframe.
Uh yeah, I think that's that's one of those things that I think, you know, when I see lots of new games starting up and you you start realizing if you're a live service game, your community is your lifeblood. I mean, you know, that's all I've talked about pretty much since we've been talking. And it's And when you realize that the person who's the

tip of the spear with the community, but is also working with a development team to understand whatever what's happening, that kind of I mean, I think on one side, Rebecca, I think, is a unique person. She has a She has a unique talent. So, I think, you know, is that every community director going to be able to step into that? So, she's unique in that way. But, at the same time, I it does make sense when you have It wasn't wasn't a hard decision from my end, at least, to say she's going to take the home. It was easy.
This is the thing that I'm always interested in is you've got creators, you've got your artist team who probably have a creative vision of where they will want to take the game, what they want to do. And then of course, you've got the the community that have a vision on where they want the game to go and what they happen
Yeah, yeah.
How do you sort of maintain that balance?
Yeah, I I often look at ah god, I I need to look up this reference to to make it clear, but I remember watching this YouTuber that you know, he's this this really small little guy and he was saying like, "Can I eat all this stuff?" And his [snorts] audience was like,

"Yeah, eat it all. Eat everything." Like he was like, "Can I eat like, you know, 100 Big Macs?" And like all sorts of crazy stuff. And then eventually the poor guy like, you know, he had health problems. Like he like he basically hurt himself
Yeah.
by listening too much
by eating 100 Big Macs.
[laughter]
The community changed him instead of him, you know, changing the community in a way. And uh I'm not saying that that happens at all for us, but I think that's maybe a cautionary tale. And I think what you really think about is you have to really listen to what the community is saying and you have to play the game with them. It's really easy to sit back in your ivory tower and you know, here's the update, enjoy. And you know, if they don't enjoy, say, "Okay, well, we'll think about it." Like you have to have people playing it and understanding what it is and so that the community feedback is uh in context. And then when you address that or when you do the next thing, you address the concern, but you twist it and and you give them something unique and interesting because I think as gamers, we all want something if we

give you exactly what you want with the time. I think part of our job as developers is to kind of delight and surprise, you know.
It's the surprise bit, yeah.
And so, yeah, they fixed this thing, but they but they did something slightly different. I mean, sometimes hey, you know, if it's a bug or it's a exploit or it's a you know, something brutal you did, sure, you just fix it and own up to it and say, "Yeah, we screwed that up. Sorry." But uh but you know, if you can, you listen to the feedback as a um you know, as a kind of a a horizon to look towards, but you don't have to actually hit it pinpoint what they want. If you give them something a little bit different on the flavor or different twist, um you know, that that can do it. And while you get to maintain your own creative vision while still working with uh hand in hand with the community.
I guess there's a creativity to approaching these things, yeah.
Yeah.
Where do you see and this is very busy question, but where do you see growth for Warframe? You know, we're on pretty much every platform now.
Mhm.
Where are the new [clears throat] players? Are they in different geographies? How Where do you see the growth?
Yeah, I mean, the last 2 years of

Warframe have probably been the biggest growth in the game over Yeah, it's it's really it really has been growing and that's kind of across the board. So, I mean, yeah, of course, you know, we look at uh new geographies um as they come on. I think we just launched on Android uh a few months ago. And so, you know, you get Android opens a whole bunch of geographies and and a whole set of players that we've never been able to interact with at all. Um and a lot of people in the mobile space who you know, our version of fair free-to-play is totally foreign to most mobile monetization schemes. So, you know, there's a bit of education piece there, but I I do see that as a as a growth. But, honestly, I think it's still just in even in our core markets, there are there is a lot of room um for Warframe both um on the consoles um and on PC. And I know I know, you know, consoles are uh the there's a a feeling of the decline of consoles, but I still think there's a huge there's

a huge segment of people um on the consoles. We you know, we look and we see what what our um our player base is there. We know there's there's lots of growth to be had.
Yeah. Well, it's certainly a dark couple of months Well, maybe month, maybe 2 weeks for the for the console side of things, but um I don't know. I'm trying to be Xbox seem to be pushing back towards it a little bit and Switch 2 is doing, you know, you know, pretty well. Um whether it'll keep going, I don't know, but it's certainly doing pretty well at the moment and
Well, those hardware costs are are not going to are not going to help and I you know, I think that's another one for us when we look at Warframe, you know, we have this amazing optimization team. So, you can you know, you can play Warframe on your PS5 Pro and it looks, you know, sweet, cutting edge and you can also play it on, you know, four generations ago Android phone and so for me, I hope that with console demands aren't able to be kept up with or, you know, people need to look at older hardware because the new stuff is so expensive, they're still

going to have Warframe to play, which is a forever game that's always being updated. So, I think that's a huge potentially a huge opportunity for us as well.
Actually, I saw JackX this week and they said um and they I brought the same question up and they said, "Well, old school RuneScape, you can run it on a potato."
So, there you go. There you go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you can't quite run Warframe on a potato, but yeah, it it can certainly cross
We laugh. As soon as we did Android, we started saying, "Hey, you're going to run this on an on a fridge. You can run it on a Samsung fridge now." So,
Yeah, yeah. Um well, yes, so a tough time, but I you know, I hopefully a temporary thing.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
I'm going to be optimistic about it. Um But obviously working on something new, right? You know, on with Soulframe. Well, was Warframe launching quite a nascent nascent live service market, really. Soulframe is going to arrive in a far more challenging um space. How are you approaching it? Quite a broad question, that one.
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things you learn as you do, you know, a second game that

you're trying for for kind of the same scope as something like Warframe is that expertise doesn't necessarily mean you don't make the same mistakes as you did before. It just means you can recover from them a little bit faster. Um And so and so that that's been, you know, the journey of Soulframe has been relearning uh a few of the things that we forgot after so many years, but at the same time using that core that I was talking about earlier, which is just, you know, establishing communication, building trust with the audience, and taking our time to get it to a point where we feel like there's enough content, enough story, enough Yeah, just kind of gameplay that that when we release it to a wider audience, um, it's going to have its core. And that's that's kind of all we're we're looking at right now is we're building the core of the audience before we go wider. And I mean, that's been going well,

but you know, like every every game it's it's challenging. And it's a you're right, it's very competitive market and there's a lot of great games in the kind of action RPG space. And so I think the fact that Soulframe is multiplayer is is a really cool differentiator versus a lot of the games that we look at. And I think you know, we have a lot of we have a lot of things that we have to do to get that game just right, but uh yeah, we're really excited about it. And I think, you know, the numbers that we're seeing from you know, getting into the business side of just retention and engagement, it looks it looks really promising. So I think it's going to be more about you know, at TennoCon we're going to show a bit more of what's of what's happening with the development of the game and kind of as we do with Warframe, show the next big update for Soulframe and get people excited for that. And then we'll see where that takes us.
Are there any advantages to having Warframe with Soulframe? Is it cuz you've got I guess you've got lots of people paying attention to TennoCon and that sort of stuff. And then you you can reach people that way. Um, are there many advantages that you can do any many opportunities to cuz they are quite

different games, right? They're not This isn't a case of you making a similar game in a similar genre where you might end up being competing with each other. You're making quite different different genres.
Yeah, they are pretty different. I think you're right. I think that's the one thing we have is that kind of like there is a which we're discovering is there's a bit of a D audience versus a you know, necessarily a Warframe audience who kind of like the way we do community um you know, the way we interact with community, the way we develop with community. So, I think that there's that core group that you know, is just interested in what we're doing there. But, the majority are just people who are more into um action RPGs that maybe they liked uh Elden Ring, but but they don't want something that's so punishing and and so precise. Um
[clears throat]
actually and and and that love the kind of uh feeling of you know, connecting with nature and and doing and those sorts of things. So, um the advantage definitely is that Warframe gets us in the door uh in terms of just being able to even just to

promote it, you know, even with partners and those sorts of things. The fact that we're it just opens up those those options which I think are great and really hard for a new I think it would be really hard for a new game to get, you know, just because people are like, "Oh, wow, this is uh the game from the creators of Warframe. Like, we'll we'll give it the time of day. [clears throat] We'll cover it. We'll do things with it." So, um yeah, I can't I can't say that it's not relying on uh big brother a little bit to to help it get off its feet, but it's standing on its own, too, which is great.
yeah, it's got frame in the title.
That's true.
Are there any learnings from Warframe? You talked about making the same mistakes. Well, are there mistakes or or things you've got right that you're going, "Actually, if we do it this way, you know, we might be able to get ahead."
Yeah, I think when you have a really experienced veteran team, there's instinctual advantages in like, what are people going to react to in terms of how, you know, powers and and the packs in the game which are just basically the the kits that you use. How are drop rates feeling? How's the loot system feel fair? Those sorts of things that

you don't have to what we still experiment with and we still tinker with, but the the starting point again is is quite a bit further ahead. So, that way is one and then two, of course, is the feeling with the team that we understand that there is that uh, cycle that if you didn't get it right, you just fix it and you communicate fast. And it's like it's like that's a really hard thing to get a new team doing. So, I think that's what we've learned and we try to take that forward.
I always think of Warframe that DE showed quite a lot of patience.
Mhm.
And there were moments I think where perhaps the game wasn't in the best of, you know, maybe shape is the wrong word, but the momentum behind it had dipped a little bit and it's like no, we'll stick at it, keep going, and we'll get there. And perhaps I and maybe you never imagined getting into 13 years and it and it being the size and scale that it is now.
Well, it's funny when you first start a second project, when you start a project like Soulframe, you know, you you think to yourself like, "Well, what caused that?" And I'd say, you know, that was four or five years ago where like, "Oh, you know, I think there were some people in the company where it's like, 'Oh, well, Warframe's peaked and that's

that's the top of it and, you know, as it as it gradually goes to the west, we will we'll have to start something going.' And that's kind of the impetus. And and and what happened was instead, you know, we while we did start another project, we, you know, changed our focus and how we were, you know, developing the game, how we were promoting the game, and and, you know, of course, now like I said, we've had a few years of straight just just massive growth. So, it is really easy to uh, to to worry about those declines and then and then make changes. And now we're kind of in this happy position where Warframe's really thriving and that gives us the ability to give Soulframe a ton of um, I guess rope.
Yeah, time, yeah.
Time, and yeah, to to really try stuff out and to and to connect. It doesn't have this like massive pressure.
One One the things I keep hearing about with live service projects is that you know if something comes out and it's good and you know it's good

but it may not have found the audience. If you've got that rope you can go well let's just keep at it then eventually won't necessarily come but it might do and I think of games like The Finals [clears throat] which is a shooter from you know Embark and you know Nexon felt that game was good they felt this is a good game.
Yeah.
I know we've lost all the audience very quickly after but you know I believe we stick at it we'll get there and after 2 years it became profitable title and you know maybe Marathon will go on a similar journey with Sony I think that's the benefit of what you're saying I guess.
Yeah and I think if you can keep your you know even though we have that Warframe and we run the team in a in a pretty lean way that is kind of more reminiscent of kind of Warframe circa you know 2012 2014. So you know it the the pull the of you know the team of of everybody is to grow and grow and grow and it's just like well you know we just have to keep letting it germinate and I think you know Soulframe's about nature and growing so we'll we'll we have a seed that we're planting and and watering and when it's ready then then

for sure we don't we'll go all in.
It was true I think there was a period of time in the industry I don't know how long ago it was cuz I've lost track I lost the ability to tell to what what is time but there was a time when the idea of being a one project studio which I know you're not but the idea of it seemed as a huge risky thing to be.
Yeah.
Whereas I don't think that's really the case anymore. I think if you are the company that makes that game you're rather League of Legends company whatever you can be.
Oh I agree with that I think it's the fun part from a studio perspective of having two is that you really get to let people spread their wings and I love you know from my perspective I love that I love seeing people thrive I mean this just you know we were just talking about Rebecca before but that's a that's a great example of someone who is thriving because we're start we're starting a second thing and I think that's happened across the board on Warframe and on Soulframe as well.
Yeah it's good for staff retention and happiness.
It is.
Yeah, which is important.
Yeah, it is important. What is It is absolutely, of course. Ultimately, that's all game companies are groups of

talented people and you know, keeping them together, they become better and stronger. I'll ask one more question about it. How do you make sure you're not going to lose focus on Warframe?
Yeah, I mean, what we've done is a I mean, this is the reason why, you know, Soulframe is still in its closed alpha and still, you know, people are playing it are just playing it from our website. It's not on Steam. It's not It's not wide because we're we wanted to really carefully grow that team without hurting Warframe. We wanted to transition slowly people and make sure that we were filling and I think um that literally took 2 years and it's it was not easy. It was not easy because, you know, the Warframe updates are incredibly ambitious. They have huge cinematics that, you know, it's like, "Okay, wow, can we bring Jeff Crooks is the creative director of Soulframe. He's also just a fantastic cinematic animator. So, it's like, "Oh, Jeff has to come back and and and animate a few things." And and that's just that's at a high level. Of course, that's a trickle down to across

but, you know, the whole company. It's the teams have to jump in and I think that's good. I think it's good because then the teams aren't also competitive with each other when they can kind of work back and forth and you know, you see your colleagues coming in to help. You get a there's camaraderie. I I've seen studios I've heard of studios where the two teams can become competitive and that's definitely the opposite of what we wanted. We really wanted to foster a collaboration between the two. But, also if you're if you're kind of careful with how you're growing the other team, then you can get to the point where, you know, where we are now, which is this this is crazy. We have TennoCon coming up in a week and both teams have massive demos that can't wait to show. And if you looked at the scope of that, um, it really does feel, you know, that we have the scope of those two demos, I mean, I can't even imagine if we would have done that, uh, you know, five, six years ago on Warframe. We'd never do like, "Hey, we're going to do like an hour and a 10-minute demo at TennoCon." You know,

it's like it's like the the volume and the ability to do, uh, both things at a high level have just come from the the slow carefulness there, I think.
Careful is the word I picked up on. Great. Well, I I also I'm running out of time, but I'll ask one more question, um, which is the classic question I always end the show with, which is, uh, where would you like to see Digital Extremes in, I'm going to say five years?
Five years. Yeah, I I mean, we're definitely on the road. This is the the the five-year plan looks pretty close to what we're doing right now, which would be to have, you know, Warframe and Soulframe, uh, thriving, that, uh, you know, the company, uh, has, you know, not double where we are now, maybe the maybe, uh, you know, we've added a couple hundred people, but, um, we're at we're at the stage where we have two, you know, big live service games that, uh, that people play as their as their hobby that they love, that that that that's the thing that they do is they play our games, and it's, you know, if you're into the

science fiction, uh, space ninja crazy stories, then you're going to go to Warframe, and if you're into fantasy and, uh, and avenging nature, and you're going to play Soulframe. Um, that's that is our vision. That's our five-year vision is to have both those games, you know, at neck and neck, uh, with totally different audiences.
Brilliant. Well, good luck with it, Sheldon, thank you for your time, and, uh, hope you have fun at TennoCon.
Thank you so much, Chris.
Thank you to Sheldon there. That is it for this week's edition of the Game Business Show. We will be back, of course, in the days and weeks ahead with more news, more analysis, more insight, and more interviews about the business world of video games. To make sure you don't miss an episode, head to the gamebusiness.com, and you can subscribe to us for free. You just need to put your email address in. That's it. It's that simple and you won't miss a thing. But that's it from us today. Until next time. Thank you for tuning in.