Curated Panel: The Game Development Renaissance – What Will Be The Foundations Of Gaming's Next....

[Music] Renaissance in gaming and I'm going to ask the panelist to come up and join me uh we're going to basically be talking about you know what are the foundations for the next era of the Gaming's Golden Age so if uh timu and John and Oliver and Timo if is if timo's here yet I'm not too sure uh we will kick off come on up so one thing I never remember to do because I've been doing this for so long is to tell people who I am uh so I'm Oscar Clark I've been around forever um I'm currently

um working on a game platform around live operations called arcanic uh we're basically trying to change the way that you manage your live Ops Gams by giving you transparency of what's Happening very different for the kind of things that the guys at meta playay are doing which is where we hold that information how we manage those games so um I've been involved and interested in live Ops gam since it started uh and was running a thing called wire playay back in 1998 so uh yeah 27 years of thinking about live experiences which is uh yeah a bit of a while I one I wrote a book called games of the service um never mind so moving swiftly on let's get everyone to introduce themselves John tell us a little about yourself and what did you do is this working everyone can hear me y yeah okay good so yeah I'm John Wright I'm the vice president of mobile games at quali um we're a British developer and publisher of hybrid casual and Casual games we do have a PC console division but that's another guy um and it's my job to uh basically lead all of the studio efforts to build internal

games publish third party games and Market successfully all of those games nothing important then no I manag 200 people globally yeah just just just a few just Oliver tell us a bit about yourself and what you do yeah I'm Oliver I'm uh work as a contractor I uh go into companies and help on operations things fix stuff I started in marketing found that a little bit boring once it became too much of a Playbook um and now help on operation things usually companies don't call me if everything is going well um but when it comes to like change management thinking like revising strategy Etc that's when they call me and ask me to come in and help them and he has a fantastic uh ability to be able to prod Us in the right way so we don't just be complacent which we will find out later I sure and T tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do medl yeah yeah fair enough uh glad to be here them nice to meet you all um I'm the one of of the

co-founders and chief product officer at metap playay we do back in technology um I was uh founder at a studio called play Raven that was acquired by Roo and instead of games now I'm here to fix why making games is so hard exactly let's let's make making games a little bit easier I mean not least there's enough things going on so we're going to talk a little bit about the framing of this so um G met playay pulled together a fantastic document you can go get it on the web framing the games industry as in a state of Renaissance and what was the Renaissance about it was a reemergence of intellectual of artistic and creative Endeavor so um Tim tell us a little bit about why do you guys look at this era we're in now having come out of let's face it a fairly tough 18 months or so why you why do you think we're now going to head into a Renaissance period yeah yeah so yeah for the last two years right even here in the conference is always like getting the vibe check of of what how's things going the past 2 years doom and glue

all over the place because of in the last fireside chat and as you mentioned the Playbook doesn't work and if as a developer you feel like I've done all these choices I put you know bet the barn and everything onto this Playbook and it doesn't work then what is left and that's the feeling of Doom and Gloom so what's changed now uh what we're seeing with our customers as we're talking about new projects and new startups there's clearly things are happening on the attention economy side there's more opportunity in distribution outside of the app stores there's new payment models in all of those stores that have nothing to do with Apple or Google and so on um and there's honestly access to new kinds of audiences new Partnerships so there's new new new new new and then there's obviously Ai and so technologies that make it faster to develop again smaller teams are able to play and companies like metap playay and others that then kind of help you out on the deep end of it so all of this together it seems like there's reasons to be exited yeah and I'm with you I

mean I think for me I mean there's some interesting articles out there at the moment talking about the um I think the phrase is in ification of the incumbent platforms um Google in particular uh and I think this this movement to try and see that there is now opening opportunities now um you know Oliver you know do you do you see the same thing are you as optimistic about this change or do you have a different kind of perspective on it well even though I'm German I am an optimistic I am actually an optimistic person I do think like yeah things are extremely challenging and you know taking the temperature check here yesterday it's not looking better for 2025 to be very honest however it's a it's a big big uh industry which does mean depending on what your expectations are there is opportunity there uh for sure it just is maybe not a VC play anymore because you're not going to uh lead the world with your studio Etc that's all established but

uh for smaller teams to find their Niche with something unique and not just doing what everybody else has been doing um I think there is opportunity so that's also where there is opportunity for a Renaissance for something around the creativity around creating something unique we haven't had for the last six seven years a new genre or anything like that it's really about time if people just copy with because somebody is successful with the same game yeah that's not going to fly new then players don't flop to it yeah but there is opportunity and if you don't have the expectations to be a world Dominator with your studio you can be very successful I bet there are hundreds of Studios out there that none of us here have ever heard of that are very very successful yeah exactly and I think if something but talking about ones who have been successful and hope to continue to be so John I mean I mean are you I guess I think I think what all

is talking about is is feels right to me like we've seen growth coming back but we still see ongoing fractional kind of um tension that actually seems to be an opportunity for innovation provoker of innovation how do you feel yeah look I think if we're realistic I do believe 2025 is going to be a much more positive year but a big component of that will be Innovation so if we're talking like highl five games if we're talking about AI to to better assist with optimization to speed up production you know all of these things will make it better I think the elephant in the room is new games um launching a new game has never been more difficult now than it has ever been in my career in games um it is much easier for developers to look at games that they launched two three years ago that have some traction and prolong them by doing and what we're going to cover today liveops um yeah something new to Market is very difficult I do like a bit of live

Ops but yeah if if you're going to get something uh in Market which is like a plus one strategy right traditional gaming plus one so you see a match free you say okay we're going to do a plus one what does that mean it means make a slight variation and tap into an established Tam was Matthew who used to be at um uh King and runs his own team now was saying to me one time a long time ago that the plus one strategy only works when the plus one includes simplify first then add Going Back to Basics I think is a really kind of essential part of that because I think what we often see is people see the game that was the finish product and adding to that rather than seeing what led to that game to be successful and adding to the what led not to the finished product I think that's a different one so obviously you mentioned the magic words live Ops um interesting one at the moment when you see Sony shutting down games that were live Ops I would argue a lot that comes down to the tension we've currently got in the market because

whilst we've got I think the phrase that you guys highlighted 75% of developers being optimistic about tooling uh the G sorry the Griffin gaming report 23 talked about 88% of developers looking for new tools because the tools that wer were on offer weren't good enough and I know you guys do an amazing job that about making sure that you're creating tools but we have had five plus years where we haven't necessarily been able to trust their party services but you guys specifically and I think there are others out there I'm not trying to sort of just you know blow smoke up t u but you know why is that important what is the what do the trust do and and particularly for me why is it so important to get the tolling right yeah that that is a really difficult question I'll try to create like less than an hour answer yeah but basically I feel like this is just message I'm receiving

sort of from the field that there's there's the the dream of I want to make a game and then I want to make that game live for a very long time and something something something live Ops I don't quite know what that means but like we'll need to figure this out so then when you're picking tools at the time when you're building you don't yet know what you need you have to try to figure it out you fly the airplane at the same time as you're building it that experience and then the disappointment let's say in the tooling whether it's internal or whether you're buying it off the shelf is that the promise of hey do this and you'll be able to live Ops does not hold unless you know beforehand what you're about to do so I feel like 5 years ago let's say very few people knew what it looks like what it feels like to be successful at scale what does it feel like to have 150 people on a team trying to push out content and make something amazing about it um now we do know a little bit more and for example us we're able to then incorporate that into our product and be able to document it talk about it teach it um and

forecast a little bit what what that's going to be so that makes it easier I see Yeah we actually just to put a note on that we this year as qual or 2024 was the year we decided to deprecate our internal solution and use third party for the first time in our existence in 12 years of business and that's a tough one to do when you've had history of games of teams like gam Sparks and chil connect being Acquired and then the people who acquire them decide they're not going to do you know support back compatibility that's incredibly you how what what got you over that challenge in terms of making the decision The Fear Factor of of what happens if this third party it it's what a lot of it is coming from what teu said because we are a games company we understand how to make fun core experiences we understand how to make engaging experiences that retain users attention we are not per se a technology company right teu who has a much broader understanding of the industry by having multiple Partnerships and seeing exactly

what each developer wants and equally developers are fickle creatures we say we want this but actually what we need is something else your words no the point is you have to really understand what you should focus on correct and I I do think um I I I do think one of the problems that we have as an industry is also um that we try to very often do too many things I I've seen teams raise a lot of money great that's all fine um they raised it on creativity and their ideas Etc and then they've been busy for years just managing people uh hiring uh organizing Etc and weren't really able to do what they're really really good at maybe it's it's time to kind of look at our work model as well and say like okay there are teams that are really good at creative and there are teams that are really good at production and there are teams that are really really good at

life UPS um there are reasons why you know companies like let's say scopely or something Outsource basically all their life Ops into South America because they're like okay that's not our strong point right while it's growing fine we're going to support this Monopoly go Etc but all the older titles we give that to others and and one of the things when I'm consulting or training people on live Ops it is mostly the problem where they don't understand that the processes for a pipeline are different from the processes to make the game for release and it's almost like the reverse it's almost like we have to think backwards because Halloween isn't going anywhere we can't we can't delay we can't leave the Halloween updat for three months it just doesn't work y so I mean moving swiftly on so I mean obviously the the technal kind of uh tools and platforms is an evolving place we're starting to see some progress again I think in terms of good solid secure platforms we're seeing this

understanding of of training in terms of the you know the other size Renaissance are we seeing that this more Firm Foundation is leading us to more interesting content experiences or is it too early to say that yet it's not in fact if if you're interested visit our booth where we're actually showing up some of our past games but more importantly some of the games that are upcoming that are doing something new that I'm personally interested on that are only possible now not necessarily just because of us but basically for example teams using AI to be able to deliver massive amounts of content visual content as a small team that you don't have to hire two Outsourcing Studios to work in tandem to fill in your product catalog if you will that you're able to deliver that experience as a small team which also means that you're able to learn and become better at it as a small team faster so you get to higher quality or you know we have bit magic that are generating full game worlds from prompts um you know other Insanity I love it so on so that there

is a step function of being able to do something on top of the foundation where the foundation is understanding of okay it's a service model thing we this is how the business is going to work and here's how we're going to do customer support whatever I I think the only challenge I would throw into the room here is if we're so much getting so much better at kind of creating these content treadmills cheaper and cheaper with more and more and greater and greater experiences it basically means that the the longterm kind of games will be clogging up I think the attention for kind of new content and that will make it harder and harder and harder for anybody with a great new game idea to get anybody to play that see I'd go a bit further I think the the trouble with taking the content treadmill approach is you're not creating a an experience that's focused on player utility it's not creating an experience that is taking you further it's thinking of it

like stack them up high rather than creating long-term emotionally connecting experiences for me I think we're not thinking enough like soop Cruise we're just thinking about retail stores where we're stacking things high in my opinion but equally I'd say there's a lot of anxiety about Ai and machine learning when there doesn't need to be Ai and machine learning is a great tool even when you're making those assets through your third party providers because it speeds the process decide what are the right things to do so for me you works both ways but also I'll interject in the interest of making the panel spicier yeah I disagree so yes at least what I'm seeing on the on the on the good stuff if you will is that uh whether it's I'm going to say AI magic word but like efficient workflow something something the smaller your game team is then the higher quality output they can produce that's that's just a claim I'm able to make so that then for example the so I love the soap opera metaphor that some of this stuff you kind of don't want the soap opera to

end but you want every single episode to be of high quality now that's really difficult to do if it takes 100 people five weeks to deliver that episode because you have to going to be risk every single one but if you can do those with two people three people then you're able to put more heart into it and equally doing smaller numbers of things that are more effective is much more interesting less but better that's yeah but it it as I said it clogs up the the the the kind of attention span of of users so you're watching the soap opera for two years yeah two years nobody else will will come up with a new soap op soap opera that you're then interested in right extremely hard yeah yeah sure but it makes it just harder and harder for any new incumbent to to kind of get some attention and that's really the challenge that we're facing these days I really feel I want I want John to come in as well but I I'm going to throw another bit in the puzzle which which is I don't think it's necessarily this live

opsman mindset isn't necessarily limited to a single game the idea of managing your portfolio of games as a community experience not necessarily having consistency between each game but the ability to connect with the players on an ongoing basis does alleviate I think some of that risk some of it yeah I would I would say actually if we're talking about AI in particular for in live op basis so if we're saying using a to create more frequent events in a much quicker way yeah we could effectively find oursel in a race to the bottom where quality keeps dropping and then user experiences start dwindling session time start dropping and users start looking for new games if we look at the the counter of that if you look at supercell or if you look at Voodoo the amount of Ip Integrations which are now popular Transformers takeover Godzilla takeover teenage man here a takeover these events are built off of a lifetime of brand recognition

and value abely and users flock to these games based on an emotional response or Nostalgia based on this stuff 100% so the the teams that will win if everyone's just blasting live Ops with AI to put low low low stuff out or low quality stuff out eventually the guys who do spend the money will just win because because everyone will want to see the quality but to your point it seems to me what you're saying is actually we've got to make things that players want and if we just just stack them up we're not going to be making the things that players want correct yeah um so with this in mind um you know what was it look like so does this efficiency of us being able to create better tools to be a toate better connection to use AI smartly to do it to make it to optimize our our generation of assets and materials or ability to understand what's going on what does that do to the market and how does that change that is it O's worry that we're clogging up content or is it more that there's an

opportunity to do something more interesting yeah yeah that's really good question I was actually talking about this uh last night when I should have been sleeping and um first of all forecasting is hard especially if you're forecasting the future um but it does seem like games are definitely as you say are going the way of Music where you're going to have basically endless amounts of everything most of it mediocre if not offensively mediocre but still people want to find the good stuff and there's there's something that there's an emergent need for uh Discovery and forming cultures around the things you discover yeah swifties or whatever tell tell Swift so I'm thinking games will absolutely do that and now the question is um what what might be the next steps of it and um so this is me going on a bit of a propeller hat spre but like if if I wanted to make money I might have be looking at solving Discovery using AI as a helper in this case because it turns out is an amazing way to index content in ways that we

don't quite understand and then most importantly those Discovery tools are no longer gated by Apple or Google or these ecosystems that are putting on brakes so I I would feel like we need to solve Discovery unfortunately metap play is not going to do that because we don't like money um but I'm really looking forward to somebody telling me you know where the where the interesting startups doing that and I think you can look at the um the importance of the kind of content creator streamers and how disorganized and fractured that process is surely there's a right opportunity to to find that olle what are what are you thinking in terms of this kind of like does is this an opportunity or is your concern that the content clogging is because I'll give you an example so I was chatting to Felix braen uh I was recording a podcast with him the other day uh and he rightly pointed out to me I might not like certain types of monetization of content but there are other people that do do we not have enough diversity of choice taste Etc that would mean that

there is a space for some of that mediocre content but equally there's a space for some of that higher what we would call higher quality content look I I'm I'm as I said I'm positive I I think there is an opportunity people just need to grab it and need to be willing to take a risk to to also find something new and be creative about it if we're just chasing the success of somebody else and just copying that yeah a I will help us to to do that faster and and as good and whatnot but that's not that's not creative that's not our industry and I'm I I I see like a lot of people as in almost in panic maybe because they they have commitments whatever to to say okay I just I need this some success so I'm just going to copy what somebody else is doing but actually we have to we have to really we have to be willing to try new things and um that that's where the Renaissance will really come if people

are willing to take that risk and say like okay this is it's just not working we need something new and I think for me the the vectors of what that Innovation looks like can be varied it can be in content but it can be about reducing friction and Discovery reducing the friction in the purchasing of something what what does it mean to purchase I'm increasingly thinking that this division between premium and free to play is almost meaningless particularly if we think about the kinds of models we can now do what do you think kind of do you think there are new vectors you think there are new mechanisms or is it just make better games yeah I think look where where can Innovation come from can it come from a new platform well there have been promises all all sorts VR and web and whatnot Etc will the real Innovation come come from there maybe not so much will there be Innovation on monetization well how much more free than free can we

be right I mean yeah we can even give people money like play to earn but we all realize that doesn't work either really so it has to come from actually gameplay that's where the innovation has to has to we can always move the cross where you can close the ad around so all can find it oh no didn't say that didn't say that don't do that anyway what from your point of view where is this Renaissance coming from I know a bunch of stuff but you're coming at it from the kind of cace yeah I mean look for me I do think the HML 5 stuff is very interesting I think if if we look at China in particular um WeChat games is generating millions of Revenue a day um some games actually doing upwards of uh positive half a million a day um just and basically housed in WeChat right which essentially is linked to every single person in China right and you they are doing effectively they have an audience a huge established

audience they're able to acquire uses in the same fashion that we do UA they are not being hit with the same level of Taxation as we are with Apple or Google so there is higher levels of profitability coming through to the studio and in a time when a Bea in studios is an all-time low or it's never been harder to achieve you know putting into these new sort of uh locations and ecosystem is Oscar is is really positive like Discord are doing a massive investment now into establish G games within you know in Discord right um Telegram in the in Eastern Europe is doing massive things I think we in the western or you know Western Europe and the West need to also incorporate the same sort of thing and I'm I'm a little bit shocked that WhatsApp or someone hasn't done this yet well was it Kaka about 10 plus years ago were trying to do the same thing might happen but you know I mean I'm entirely with you on that I mean it's not the irony in some ways is that you know about 20 8 or so

um there was a point where there was these things called operators like me uh and we were CH I was charging 60% Revenue share so I kept 60% and that people like uh IL capan and Christian seari would still sell you know still distribute their gains from through me because they had no choice at that time as we were the most successful operator in the world in terms of Revenue per user and yet then Apple comes out and they decide they're not going to do the um management of the space they don't do the QA for the game they require the game developer to do it and they gave a better Revenue share and lo and behold massive upser oh by the way and of course huge distribution of a great device uh massive Improvement in the market I feel like we're in kind of a similar point where we see hear epic talking about you know their reduction of the um uh of the royalty but also 12% versus 30 yeah exactly but also for me their their intention to be platform

agnostic and I think there's some really really interesting stuff going on there so so I'm thinking about that kind of stuff as exciting um in the in the space at the moment we're seeing I think some improvement in terms of investment and I think the phrase that you guys uncovered 70 77% of developers expected increased funding opportunities so is that a sign that we're in exciting times uh or is it just that we've got we've been so low for so long it's about time we had something good you go well so my my take on this is I think I said that earlier it I don't think it's a time for a VC play there is no opportunity for world domination on a new studio or something like that so it's going to be really hard but there is still money there right there are grants especially now in Europe uh people realize they need to kind of shape their own uh Destiny so to say and there is more more money available than ever depending on in which country you are there are

opportunities to actually get access to money that is much better than uh than Equity like so there is money there but you need to you need to know how to access that and some deals have been being done I mean maybe not as large scale as previous years but they have actually been done Tim do you have any kind of views on it sure sure sure um I'll I'll be on the yeah I disagree side of that mostly but games is a b a big place so most during the show I've been talking with uh some Founders that are have been now successful at raising funding over the past few months uh which was clearly easier than it was over the past year and I think the the difference there is uh for for those Founders is that they are making less of a Content play and a little bit more of a platform play on on what they're doing uh which specifically means that they're thinking of what they do as L of I'm going to make a game and if it's good enough then hopefully it will succeed they'll do that yes but then they also think about right what what's my place

in the world what what kind of business deals or Partnerships will I be able to make who am I going to be useful to so yes absolutely telegram is happening that we're seeing uh smart use of Ip whatever that is but it's more of like a holistic approach of like why will my company exist and VC's are really kind of attracted to that at the moment but it's it's a different Playbook kind lot of the games VCS if you look at what they're what they're publishing is like yeah we're going outside of Games Etc so I I I don't think for there is always the exception I grant you that but um overall it's very very very hard to kind of uh raise raise money um from from a VC these days in games sure and it the the Investments are heavily tilted toward like second or third time Founders that sort of thing yeah exactly was talking to Axel Ventures which ab absolutely massive and they they sort of just said like well supercell was the fourth fourth best in investment they've ever made next to meta for example that they

still see that's a lot of money there so somebody talk to me please so I would no I mean look um this is not going to be an anti VC conversation but at the end of the day I would not go to a VC in this particular time um raising money right now will effectively cost you more than it will in probably a year a lot of the funds are coming to the end of their fund a lot of people will try and sell they'll try and Rea more cash will be in Market in 2026 I would hold fire I would try and do what all of us said go to some local local uh governments and stuff one of my uh companies that I'm an investor in in Norway is about to get six figure check from the Norwegian Film Institute y so there is Ways and Means in every country on this planet to get six figure checks for gaming companies without having to sell yourself to not the devil but you know maybe his cousin I don't know what you call him but um you know so I thought you said this

wasn't an an it's not it's not I've got very good relationships with VCS you know like but it's just at this time this time as we are now three years ago it was easy and you know cash was easily accessible you were not going to get you know um not going to get the investment stretched you know you weren't going to raise 5 million and have to give 30% of your company you would get raise 5 million and get 10% valuations are lower they want more it's tougher if you can bootstrap if you can go to government schemes if you can get a very good Angel Syndicate if you don't know Nick but Brown I'm part of his Syndicate he's fantastic trying and get into speed him and and a bunch of other of these other syndicates with other individuals that invest money and if you're a UK and you haven't got Nick on your on your pocket and advisor probably in a very big very small minority exact actually I think I'm going to ask a question to the audience so I'm going to ask you to put your hand up if you are optimistic about raising money in the next 12 months hands up well you would be okay got a few how many are pessimistic about

raising money in the next 12 months yeah so how many don't want to raise money oh interesting okay okay so I just think it's interesting I mean so Nick himself has said to me he noticed that there was an improvement last year and particularly you know but I do think we are we normally when we run in in the UK we run towards the April Financial year because that's when a lot of the CIS so the uh seed Enterprise investment scheme and Eis sche exactly pay off these are massive tax advantages for investors yeah yeah so people you 40% tax break that but I don't think I've seen a huge increase in compensations this year yet yeah I mean look again if it's because I'm in these circles I think I'm seeing it a little bit more oscar but like I said for me I I do believe more conversations are happening more more people are raising and there is more positivity around it

you know TSU said like more VCS are opening up it's just and just to clarify my point what I am saying very clearly is I John wot would not raise but if you you know needed to raise to survive or you needed to raise to get your business to the point of it being successful then obviously do that it's just what you have to give up for that money is is what your or perhaps if you've got something so in demand that's so breathtaking that there's enough competition for it you might still manage it that will be the that would be rarified and look I want everyone to race you know it's uh the more money in the market the better right High Tide Rises All Ships and and given the scale of the talent that is currently available because of all the redundancies I I still imagine there will be some amazing teams that come out of that and I'd actually just like Bo on that we were talking about opportunities earlier that some of these these new opportunities as as a new team you have to make something new they're not all that expensive right so we're we're

little bit away from oh I have to raise 5 million to be able to up the production value very true you're going to telegram or whatever then the production values have been reset to a point that now you need to be clever and relevant again and we are basically giving meta play away for free and so on like you don't need that initial Capital as much yeah and if you look at audience tastes the requirement for high-end Graphics is no longer there with the mxet never there I like my I like my anyway so let's let's uh anyone got any questions before I kind of sum up right in that case I'm going to basically ask you guys you know what's the sort of lesson that you want the audience to take away from them that's going to put them in the best place to really take advantage of what we think is the New Renaissance timu well that's an easy one yeah use your platform making games is hard use met play but no um I I think it's really talking to other people

about yeah discover is your number one problem go to market plan is a number one problem and understanding what for your audience is going to be highly resonant is a number one problem so let's talk to each other because there's a lot of knowledge at the moment in the room on what might work it's sort of the connect the dots moment so obviously we'll share all of our secrets that we can at the booth but like more importantly talking to other developers personally personally I'd be really interested in looking at uh sort of content heavy modern day Reliant games where you're basically like if you're making rap music rap music is about today it's not not about what was happening 5 years or 10 years ago but most of games that we make are about like the past or the past fantasies or something copies of games that have been done before let's talk about relevant news stories because those are more likely to go viral or be sort of relevant on those new platforms so personally that's what I would look at cool yeah if you're if you're a game developer don't don't try to do what everybody else is doing we we don't need

more of the same games we really don't try to come up with something new um yes we all know it's big risk Etc but with just copying what everybody else is doing the industry will not John um Sor I'm going to cough now guys just talking for three days I'm going to keep it simple so basically if you're not doing live Ops please integrate into your St as quickly as possible try and uh revisit games that previously were successful and um that's what I'm going to say for a coffee I I'm going to add to that so don't get locked in to the battles of the past you know free-to-play versus premium is no longer a relevant question what's the business model that makes players feel they want and desire and feel comfortable acquiring the things that they love in your game What's the

best way to do that and the live Ops part of that for me is to understand that if we constantly pile high we make the whole process more complicated not just to build but for players to enjoy and I think the biggest problem for me the thing that I always see Killing Games is that teams aren't thinking in pipelines enough and early enough and actually I would say you should be thinking about actually how do I structurally deliver things through the server rather than manually as early as possible even when you're testing the original game so anyway happy to talk more about that um thank you very much guys anyone got any last minute questions before I shut down on that note I'm going to say thank you very much for my panel and let's let's enjoy the uh the Delights of the New Renaissance in games which we expect to come shortly uh right