Charisma's Guy Gadney On How AI Can Evolve Your Narrative Gameplay

[Music] thank you hi folks welcome back to the pocketgamer.biz podcast I'm your co-host Ryan bagloo and joining me as always is the effervescent Peggy and salts hi Peggy hey Brian great to have you back literally because you've been away you've been away and you'll tell us about that maybe a bit more but um yeah what was the yes biggest surprise oh wow so I I should explain it to the listeners I'm just back from a week in Australia I was asked to go out and speak at the electric dreams conference which is part of the Adelaide Fringe um which is the second largest Arts Festival in the world after Edinburgh where I am oddly enough so it was totally jaw-dropping it's the number of people out there the number of interactive events and performances that were using games tools or Tech or or

just drew from the world of games was absolutely astonishing so I'm back revitalized re-energized and absolutely willing to embrace the future of games as a transformative technology that is awesome I can feel the energy Brian I really can and see it in your face and it's great that you're talking about transformation because that is happening everywhere in entertainment and in games and with AI so what better way than our guest today right Brian he is a Pioneer in this he's gigadny co-founder and CEO of Charisma entertainment hugely impressive long track record working in this and entertainment products such as BBC Sky Penguin Books Fox he's produced Emmy and bafta nominated products for drama and factual television series and hey we connected him I at least got to connect with him but he was at

pocketgamer in London as well speaking there talking about creativity in and around the world so hey let's welcome you guy great to meet you and you're just getting ready to go to South by Southwest where creative worlds collide amazing things happen what are you excited about what's gonna what's going to be the topic or the uh Focus for Charisma there you know what it's all driven around the lamp posts it's what the Flyers are they've been put around the lampposts in town so for example last time I was at South by Southwest did the same trip before South by Southwest all of the lampposts had these flies around metaverse so and so in the metaverse you know celebrity in the match of us metaverse metaverse the lampposts in GDC had nothing you know there was not about metaverse it was about other sort of Technologies um and I found that fascinating and that's though that's sort of the you know those traffic lights so you know uh posters and and so forth are I think

very reflective of two different angles and two different Industries right now um South by Southwest as you know I mean it's it started out in uh in in music and then evolved to film and then now it's Tech which is this sort of the the dominant um content strand really for that but I think across both if I was to make a prediction that it's a fairly um I think a fairly easy prediction to make is is it's going to be AI and what the implications are for it I think still there are a lot of question marks it's a very broad technology AI it touches everyone from sort of Candlestick makers through to games developers through to film producers writers um Farmers you know so I think the um the landscape is going to be fascinating to have that discussion I can't wait you're absolutely right you know it's it's one of these um it's

always it's always nice to sort of predict the trains based on who's advertising and what they're advertising at any of the major events and in South Bay Southwest has always been the one that's that I've used as a bit of a Bellwether because they do bring together all these different sectors and and it's you know I think for me that that's the most exciting part is it's not just game development game creation but it's how games is a transformative technology is impacting The Wider creative world and then you know the use of AI within that it's the possibilities are almost Limitless yeah and you know that's the problem actually is that the possibilities are you know so broad um that the discipline almost is working out what to do with it and I remember thinking a while back that in some ways AI is the cause but the effect is automation so rather than looking at Ai and thinking Hmm what can I do with AI now think about yourself in terms of

Automation and which parts of the self can we automate which parts of production of of um of Our Lives can be automated sorry to jump in guy but tell us a little more about Charisma just so we we know kind of what the what the company's up to and what it's focused on so I I think that's better and building off that concept of automation what we realized early on is that as as games developers and our interactive storytellers want to create more immersive stories so they become slightly more complicated to write it's not a question of writing it in Microsoft Word or indeed a movie script in final draft you have to contemplate you know some element of branching narratives or characters that evolve that you know adapt based on player input over time and that's quite complicated so what we realized was that by looking at that

storytelling process that creative um I suppose ideation of how to come up with Storyteller good characters good plot tense narratives um you can then use Ai and specifically I can talk about the bits that we use because it's a broad umbrella to um to automate some of the process which for us for example is the bit of listening to the player actually it's not about writing it at all so the the the the bit that we wanted to look at was was storytelling the creation of the story and the writers still need to have the story story write the story we feel that's very important however the bit that Charisma supports with is then simplifying you know how to create almost Limitless options so we use AI to sort of backfill some of that that that that Infinite Experience and indeed within the interactive space listen to what players are saying so you

know the experiences that we power for example you can talk to the characters talk to the NPCs if you say something rude to them they're going to get angry if you say something nice to them they're going to like you and that then changes the relationship that you have with the players that then changes the game that changes the story now it would be impossible to write that without uh without this sort of AI technology so that's what we do well it's something very close to my heart my first role in the games industry was as a writer um way back on the original Grand Theft Auto and you know that in itself we didn't even have the The Ledger of using a Microsoft Office or um words it was X sale which is not conducive to you poor thing narrative flow so I'm really familiar with it and I notice it in games all the time you know it's the the uh the conversation trees and the sort of The Limited choices and everything kind of comes back to to fixed points the illusion of choice without real choice so I absolutely

can't wait to see how this this works and see how it really gives gives you that immersion in in some of these games worlds because you can get lost in all of these things and if you come again come up against the same barks the same you know repetitive phrases time after time it can really drag you out of of that immersion so um that that is phenomenal okay I mean I thank you I mean I think we've we've got two big proof points coming up actually one is uh one of the hardest things you often you guys will know in the audience will know as to is to take a novel like an existing book and adapt it into any medium whether it's a movie or a TV series or whatever doing it into a game is hard enough but doing it into into a game where you're pioneering a new form of Storytelling Power by AI it's a big chunk to bite off but we had we bought the rights to John windham's uh 1952 classic uh the Kraken wakes and I've been working on that and adapting that over the last couple of years and

that um that will be launching um uh at the London Games festival at the end of this March so we we can't wait you know it's a it's about staying true to the Art of Storytelling but weaving in these Technologies as well and this capability and yeah I think the other thing that's interesting is is is to look at the existing art forms and media that exist and see where the parallels are and we feel a real kinship for example with theater funnily enough and immersive theater specifically because in those stories you are you know you turn up at an immersive theater production and you're you're there you know you're in the story you're shoulder to shoulder with with the cast and what you say changes some of the narrative but you still have to have that throughput because at the end of the day you know you've got to go home because the the show's ended so that balance between agency and interactivity I I creatively

find fascinating as well that's probably what you're talking about when you say you're pioneering new forms of entertainment by casting audiences inside the stories themselves so we're a part of that but you're enabling that at Charisma because you have what you call a tool kit for Creative so the magic happens when designers when developer can use this but what what is that what is that process like so I I think interestingly the biggest um stepping stone that the the writers have to get over or step onto and then off again um it's exactly what you said which is the concept of casting an audience inside the story because we're so used to writing stories where it is a monologue you know uh and it is the the voice of a soul author that that is you know we sit all we sit down at Cinema or at home and we watch this sort of linear experience

that's passively but as we then start to move into active um storytelling it it it's up to the writer to really contemplate what the audience is going to do when they go into these stories so I think that for me is funnily enough the the biggest challenge but then again that said I think you we also find that some writers for this this is this is what they were born to do you know this is the format that they they they want to write in certainly for me you know Brian uses Excel I remember remember that you know I was writing a serial killer project interactive one which was a combination of Excel and Word and mind mapping software and my God IBM Watson you know and and sort of went through this bit of disillusionment around the whole thing and then thought we can solve this and then you know that was I suppose the Genesis moment for for Charisma to be born it's been in the Forefront of my mind given the number of sort of different experiences immersive

experiences and so on and it's something that you know the games world I don't think has has opened itself up to as fully as it as it really could be so it's so interesting that because if you look then over the last couple of years at two of the largest corporate sort of Acquisitions really or moves from Unity on the one hand and epic and unreal on the other they've been around digital humans you know whether it's epic games launching metahumans or Unity acquiring which digital and Ziva Dynamics you know these are massive purchases that were made that I think were uh signposts really for where the industry is going to head part of the challenge of the games industry is that production cycle that might take two three four five years to come through and if you think that those were probably two years ago my guess is that by the end of 2023 and in 2024 we're going to see a lot stronger

characters a lot more immersive characters a lot more responsive characters coming through and to my mind also there is a uh a quantifiable return on investment that happens from a commercial standpoint which is you know imagine you're you've just created a game much like Ryan you worked on Grand Theft Auto let's take that as an example you run through a city and you're running through you know these uh or driving through these these These Streets you don't really stop that you might run past a bar you see all these characters are going hey get out of my way but with that same amount of investment in character design and World design you could then have the player stop at a bar and play a game of poker negotiate to get into an argument you know and that experience can last for three quarters of an hour an hour and so you're deeply immersed in an environment game environment which has already been built so there's no extra cost to it you know

um so I think there's a very interesting business model around here as well as the creative that'll emerge as we as we move into 23 and 24. I love how you're forcing me to think this through and and actually unleashing a process where we're saying at least I'm saying to myself yeah I get it you know live Ops pays huge dividends this is sort of in that realm and it's even cooler because liveops there's a lot that goes into it it's not very spontaneous and I'm not co-creating it but this is like I'm together with the designer I'm together in the game and I am immersed I am engaged it's it's almost I hate to say it a win-win Brian but uh it feels like it doesn't it we must be on to something here it yeah it certainly does you know it's we've we've had um a number of conversations you know Peggy and I did a an episode about the PGC connects event in London and one of the key themes that every was on the everybody's lips was of course AI but the discussion still

um tend towards the you know the fear that they're coming for our jobs and but what you're talking about is is additive you know so it's additional it's it's increasing the complexity it's giving developers a whole new tool set to deepen that experience not just automate them out of existence oh 100 and now our um I suppose our ethics on this having always been down that track you know we want this to be a tool kit it's a new paintbrush for writers you know it's a new it's a new way of doing things and that new way is is a way which simply would not have been possible without the addition of technology to it so it's not taking away you know it's not taking away from existing writing skills as I said I said before it's it's it's it's sort of matching certain styles of writing and going oh thank God finally I can write

these sorts of stories you know these sorts of characters um and put the characters front and center into into all of them I saw someone say in a interesting way they said AI is not going to take your jobs but the people who know how to use AI will and I thought that that distinction was very interesting um and I recently gave a talk about sort of the future generally it was a it was a it was an interesting keynote in in the sense that the the brief was very Broad um and and I looked again at that concept of automation around things and went back there was a little spark in the back of my mind and I went back and researched Detroit in the 1950s and what happens to the more automotive industry at that period and it's fascinating because it wasn't a simple story it wasn't like all these guys were put out of work and it was the blue collar thing actually there was a lot of reskilling

and retraining negotiation that happened over a period of years to change the nature of that City into something else so I my sense is that you know there is a absolutely understandable psychological worry about you know one's own Essence one's own jobs and our own you know as individual views on on things but um at the same time I think there are a lot of new opportunities that will it will create and I believe as you said right that it through pioneering new forms of creativity you're also enabling new forms of uh of revenue streams for creatives and my God the creative industry needs it when you think you know the average writer's salaries professional author is seven thousand Pounds a year you could do with a bit of a boost but we've got numerous examples of um really fantastic companies that are creative assembly lines you know it's the games industry is absolutely chock-a-block with with Studios who are incredibly efficient at producing what

they do so giving them an entire an entirely new suite of tools which can deepen the player experience I think um yeah it's likely to require some reskilling retraining maybe a slightly different job rules or maybe even completely different jobs but I think it's it certainly seems to have a a far greater beneficial side than I think we're discussing at the moment so I think what I'm saying is we need to come to your talk please do I mean I I think and you know it's the wonderful thing about these sorts of things that you know we we have this conversation and then we can carry on the conversations around it I I do think the opportunities are there and and again like you said Brian also picking up your word deepen is important because so many games are about progressing through levels and indeed the TV industry you know it's what I call horizontal binging you sit down and we watch episodes one to ten horizontal

binging what I quite like is the concept of vertical binging and I think it's applicable both to the games industry and TV where rather than just rush through a game or rush through a series you stop pause you spend time in that world uh and and and if that if through spending time you'll get you're you're doing it through meeting good characters and interesting characters then uh then that's good because that's how we emotionally relate to each other you know that that sense of of relationship uh humor laughing crying Jessie shell I think made a an interesting observation that the language of Hollywood is very above the shoulder you know it's it's it's it's it's uh make him laugh make him cry and yet the language of the games industry is quite below the shoulders it says running jumping you know uh action and his view was that actually if those two worlds can come together we can get more of an emotional

um impact into games and indeed a interactivity back up the other way that's going to be a powerful combination you have me thinking about that combination and that's very exciting because you're bringing together you know emotion and action but to unleash this you are not afraid of it based on that what does a good collaboration with AI look like how do we unleash this how are you doing that how do we as humans do that it's such an interesting question and what I always love is that we never had these sorts of philosophical questions 15 years ago in this industry you know uh the the and as a as someone who studied philosophy as you know at University I I really enjoy um thinking about these I think I think it's I think the short answer is you know it's up to us actually uh as uh as

Industries as humans as as um as technologists to work out what we want out of this and to respond in ways that make um the world a better place my strong ethical feeling it's not even ethical my strong sort of direction is that within this space who we are as humans is so generated by our creativity you know just the way that we communicate we express that if we try and automate that that surely has got to be a bad thing and if we further if we don't respect that which is why I have issue with a lot of AI uh large big tech companies training their models on copyrighted material and not paying it back to the authors it seems like a holy unnecessary redistribution of wealth

um so my sense is that is that we are going through this this this philosophical phase uh which in some ways is existential but also is a is a good moment because I hope we we can use this to elevate um our thinking uh into a more connected sort of human race because that suddenly got very philosophical very deep very quickly but you can see no no no no no no guy it's great when you do that because it's actually very inspiring we were talking in prep about this I mean guess what philosophy and having studied it which we both did in different ways has a place has a place what does that tell us about the skills that we're going to need or the skills we're going to start to Value perhaps as well you're right Peggy I mean you know as you said in prep we both discovered that we both have common ground on on philosophy as as a study when I studied it from enough I was I studied it it was the last year of philosophy the university before they

were going to shut down the philosophy Division and now you're starting to see it come back as a subject you know with a lot of funding largely I think driven by uh Ai and ethics and these sorts of these sorts of Concepts so I hope that um that we we just think a little bit more about about what we about who we are and what we're doing with this sort of Global Communications that we now have where everything happens so fast and ideas can be communicated so fast we are almost operating in this hive mind you know I was talking to a right yesterday about this actually and I I I fully agree that it just changes the way that we think we can't just be these these these um separated individuals anymore and what that does to us I hope uh is a sense of collective responsibility that you know Taps into the major issues we're facing I think that's that's incredibly interesting and it and it really kind of speaks to the fact that there's so much more to games than a content type or a set of genres

or a set of um experiences you know since we um first connected games to the internet and communities have come together people have of discovered new ways of interacting and engaging with each other both positive and negative but it but it really highlights the fact that the games are almost an emergent you know um experienced in their own right uh and I don't think as a sector we've kind of appreciated that one of the real benefits of what you're discussing here with us today is the fact that you can then use AI you can cater for all of the different player types because we know people getting involved with in games for different reasons you've got completionists teachers guides you know Griefers so having a tool set that can actually say okay you're playing it this way so we're going to give you more of this you know it really does tailor each

person's experience to that individual so again I just think the potential here is jaw dropping and and that's why we've done this as a tool set rather than a product it because we always wanted it to be in some ways for Charisma to be a blank canvas onto which people can paint their own pictures we don't want to say this is just for just for sci-fi genres like you're saying or just for action games or just for narrative games it's not it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a way of thinking about something that enables people to do their own thing and that's that's you know that's quite um that's exciting because we get to see what people can create on it you know rather we're not pushing people down a particular path where we're saying this is a new way of working like you're saying about connecting to the internet these are now characters that speak to you that can react to you now what go play what can you do it's also part of an exciting Continuum when you frame it like that guy because I'm thinking yes we had

content that was highly relevant personalized you know constructed and made to be exactly what would match a player type and now it's going from the aspects of content to the substance of that content the conversation so not just the experience but all the way down into the the deepest depths of the experience now that's got to be exciting that has to be path breaking and and you've done this a bit is this what you're doing in your own project you have Electric Sheep is this coming through in that project it is so Electric Sheep as a by way of introduction is Project which we've run almost like an art sideline as an r d project for us but we're launching this um at South by Southwest which is exciting we started looking at this just prior to gpt2 so in other words just prior to the first real movement forward in generative AI

and Electric Sheep is a as a as an experience you type in you know a dream you might have had last night and then in 3D you know there is an interpretation a a sort of visualization of that dream where all of the architectural the buildings are created in real time the characters are creating World under conversations their faces the weather system ultimately there will be music that is created in real time all around that and for us doing that over the course of the evolution of gpt2 the introduction of gpt3 and then chat GPT has been fascinating because some of the things which creatively we wanted to do but couldn't we now can which goes to the point of AI not replacing people we actually had the ideas that were technically not possible now we can that's not replacing that's that's that's allowing us to visualize the vision so that's um an electric sheep obviously is is a nod back into the book itself so I think we

um we wanted to really push what it what the experience could feel like um and watch the space it's a dreamy slightly trippy um experience but you know I hope we get a couple of games companies looking at going oh my god look what they just did that's uh that's that's interested you know Brian you were an electric dream so you also saw you know Worlds Collide creative worlds bump connect how do you see this and how do you see what he's talking about I mean is this inspiring a new generation of game designers and developers as we as we speak what do you see as the as the impact that you saw there and the connection with what guy is talking about I think there's a there's an enormous connection and I think it could be truly transformative because one of the most exciting things was um many of the shows many of the performances were using games tools

Technologies and indeed techniques um but it was not coming from people with a game's background it was coming from people with a screen background or a film excuse me theater or performing arts background so as soon as you get the tools into the hands of people um in other areas with different backgrounds different Visions then strange and wonderful and unique things can happen so one of the biggest issues that kind of came out of the event I was at electric dreams was um for a lot of the performers a lot of the the companies that were trying to do something they ran headlong into the developer problem we need a developer we need a technologist and then translating between their vision and then the you know the programmer Developers and understanding of what that was caused problems and and so I see this as as absolutely giving the the tools and

the ability to create new things even if it's just prototypes that then go to a developer a development team um I see this really kind of pulling down the Walls between all the different areas of our creative world you know I'm absolutely done with this whole future thing um and I can't wait to see uh the tracking weeks I'm a big big fan of John windham's and I I can imagine how this would translate so um yes and I'm maybe having a a bit of a play with Electric Sheep um later on this afternoon as well guy I guess my my uh my last question for you guys is um outside yourselves is are there any projects out there where you think yes that's that's a great example of how AI can be used how it can you know really demonstrate the the possibilities and the potential that you can maybe Point people towards because there's a lot of

um bloviation should we say there's a lot of kind of speculation out there but can you sort of point to anything that we can share with the the listeners the viewers the audience um that you think is actually pretty good gosh so the projects that come to mind around you know characters in in games and games in in this space are not necessarily I can't necessarily think of titles that have used AI but I can think of titles that would have been so much better if they had you know and I cite Red Dead Redemption 2 as well you know an incredible game you know uh emotional engaging just wonderful but I wanted more I wanted to be able to spend more time with the characters and and and know them better um so I would have loved I would have

loved that from from there GTA also um any I think any game which is has an element of narrative in it uh the work that Annapurna publishes is is astonishing back to her and back to her story and and things like that I always liked last of us obviously you know that those sorts of narrative titles with very strong um very strong characters I think AI dungeon was possibly the first you know um significant play in in in generative AI and you know or that's probably the the number one piece at the moment that that I've seen you know there's so much more that I think people will do in the next near future well who knows you know maybe we'll see a new generation of remastered classics coming out that do have you know the AI backing to to Really you know give them a whole new depth I love that idea that would fit with the

whole Trend to nostalgia's in night right you know talking about going back let's imagine that uh we meet again you know we meet again together and guy you come and you're telling us hey you know I've got great news I've got something I want to tell you maybe even brag a little bit to us what do you want to be telling us about yourself about Charisma about the state of AI in games so revealing a bit of my Prime uh objective from RoboCop world people listening what fans of the X-Files series when it was on a great series more Scully all of that good stuff right at the end of every episode after the credits had rolled there was a little sort of hand-drawn animation of a typewriter and someone typing and then the paper flew out and the kid's voice went I made that and it's that that piece that piece I want to be able to come back to you guys and say you know that thing you were

just talking about I made you know that that that that that's exciting to me also the same coin I think uh uh I would love people to I would love to be able to look at Charisma as I already do and I look at the worlds and the people and the stories and the and the the projects that people create on Charisma and say they made that look what they did with this look how they pushed it in ways I hadn't thought of they've made me laugh they've made me cry they've brought these characters up up onto screen uh in ways I hadn't possibly imagined I think that's that's what I would would love to be able to show I'd love to be able to show other people's work funnily enough more than my own even though that's my motivation I'm going to bring things to close um by first of all saying thank you guy it has been an extraordinary interview I think we've bought um come away we might need to sit with a bag of frozen peas in our heads and just kind of let that all percolate for a while so we we have two questions that we tend to ask guests so the first is what's your favorite game of all time and the second is and what are you

playing right now there was a there was a moment where I was motorbiking around Spain and I pulled into a small bar in this tiny little roadside Village and I went into the bar and ordered a Coke because it was it was a hot day and in the corner there was an arcade machine and it was our type which was my favorite game and I looked there and it was the same name in the top I can't remember I think it was the top five list same name same three letters and I could see his score and I thought I can do better than this and I put in my coin and I played and I could see I could feel that he was in the bar feel it and I looked across and I could see him like he's still going he's still going he's still going and then I'll and then and then I got to number one on the leaderboard so I'll type that um right now like I'm afraid from the sublime to the ridiculous uh I'm everything is we're we're play

testing the Kraken wakes we're play testing Electric Sheep so I'm going to Discount those and say I actually like Words With Friends to wind down it's a casual game but just every now and again Words With Friends um is is is is is my guilty pleasure maybe we can come out of the closet here I think a little bit Brian you probably have some sort of guilty pleasure as well oh listen I'm a huge watch with friends fun it's uh I'm gonna go and put on on into the public record right now you'd say my mom is cheating but I love her there's no way she's not getting some of these but um love you dearly mom but I'm on to you so not even a remotely guilty pleasure I'll shout it from the rooftops but um brilliant that that sadly has to bring us in into things a guy again thank you so much thank you for coming on sharing

and we will take that step forward into the future and see if we can bring you back and and see exactly how many things you can see I made that or they made that I'd love to do that real pleasure to look forward to thank you so much thank you for listening and thank you thank you both for for uh for the discussion fantastic I have to second that guy thanks so much and it is a date we are going to do this and in the meantime Brian and I are going to check out Electric Sheep as well so we will indeed thank you how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast

pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through thepocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz forward slash podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on thepocketgamer.biz website site tune in again for the next edition of the puffygamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian baglo I'm Peggy Ann saltz and that's a wrap until next week