Week in Mobile Games E47 - GDC 2025 final thoughts

[Music] hello and welcome to the pocketgamer.biz podcast week in mobile games where we discuss the week's news and provide some insights we've got a special episode today we're going to focus on GDC and Pocket Gamer connect San Francisco so for that pleased to welcome Chris James CEO of Steel media back and debutant steel media coo Dave Bradley how you doing welcome to the podcast you I didn't know your name de hello hello how was your trip well our trip back was quite interesting I I thought we all came back on the same trip though we all C we we did okay right we all came back on the Friday on the same Friday night except for the bit where the plane was like not sure if this play is going to crash we had a lot of turbet in the first hour a lot of turb but as you say we were we were fortunate to get on a plane at all because this was in the middle of the fire crisis that he throw many of our

colleagues have been turned around and sent back to San Francisco I think that um the editor of our you know of your opposite site pocket gamer.com was delayed by two days oh longer than that I think actually maybe three days in total getting back so so in a way we were lucky to get on the plane but then the ride itself was a roller coaster so U you know swings around about it was it wasn't quite a roller coaster because it didn't go quite up to the top before it dropped but it did drop drop down it wasn't fun either and and Dave had the pleasure of sitting next to me anybody ever flies with me will know that I fly a lot a lot but I'm not the world's best with turbulence and especially we've not had a couple of couple of medicinals on the way and yeah I was clutching clutching the sheat I clutch the seat in front of me which is very helpful for the person sat in front of me and just look nervous which I think it spreads an aura of relaxation through the cabin I think people people like to see someone else holding on like it's their last last flight ever really makes everyone at put every one at ease you know yeah that's what I i' I've got one very not this not GC one related story I once to

went to Barcelona I used I go there quite L anyway and if you go to find to Barcelona like a lot of places you're coming over the sea and and sometimes we can because the change in air pressure can be quite a drop so one time we were coming in I wasn't really used to it and there's this sudden drop and I was like gripping onto the the the the the kind of what you call armrest as really tightly looking looking kind of terrified in that wonderful way again that makes everyone else feel calm and I as I kind of eased up and turn around I realized I was holding on to the leg the man sitting next to me he was like a kind of Japanese or Korean businessman and in that wonderful kind of Asian patient way he just kind of looked at me and smiled and nodded and I was like I'm so sorry but uh yeah we still we still keep in touch yeah anyway sorry I've derailed it already let's go on with the let's go segue you are gonna you you enjoyed it so much you've launched an event in Barcelona this year and and and also the events in Asia so there you go it's all connected right that one trip has that one that one trip changed my life maybe it changed his I don't know

we don't keep so we just mentioned we're doing pocket gam connect Barcelona June 3D and fourth upcoming we've also got Dubai game Expo Summit powered by PGC May 7th to 8th we've got PGC Summit in Shanghai July 30th and Helsinki on October 7th and 8th also got Jordan later this year and I think we're looking at some other events and mobile games Awards Gamescom so keep an eye out for all of that I'll also be at Gamescom latam uh end of end of this April what month were we in we're not in April yet it's March still it's March has gone on a long a long time the year has both gone quickly and uh and March seems to be going on forever we still got March isn't even over till next week it goes on forever March ridiculous you're going to be you're going to be going to uh to to Gamescom Lata then flying back all the way from Brazil all the way to bra Brazil straight onto the Dubai game Expo Summit so you're a trooper you're going to be in three different time zones in the space of a day I think all right well let's jump into it then so uh we're

just going to talk about GDC what we thought of it Trends insights but I guess to start to kick things off the obvious thing that everyone's kind of talking about is it was a quieter year and beforehand we were kind of wondering like oh have you heard like so and so is not going what have you heard and then when and I was like thinking when we get there it might be hard to tell cuz allegedly 30,000 people 30,000 attendees yeah in town maybe at the event and but actually it was quite obvious I would say the show floor was uh there's less people on there there were fewer boovs which we can go to in a bit as well even just around town Dave was saying just before this that the hotels required sir like the W yeah people saying they could just grab a a table yeah and it varied throughout the throughout the day it's an interesting one you're you're absolutely right I mean they have 30,000

attendees but it didn't feel like that live on the ground um I mean I still got all the meetings I wanted to have I had some good quality meetings I met the people I wanted to meet but it felt a little bit more Spar and and absolutely we we've commented on this normally in conference week in San Francisco you can be relied on all the hotels along there The Usual Suspects there's the W there's the InterContinental The Marriott Marquee the the Marriott still actually was kind of buzzing during the core part parts of the day but yeah we uh we walked through the um after a Yuki event on Thursday thinking to ourselves well we'll B to see some familiar faces in here because everyone's and it was a ghost town and that's just that was shocking in itself and I know that necessarily doesn't necessarily reflect what's going on in the show floor but it maybe shows who's in town I think yeah no I I I concur I concur I think um I think the thing there's a couple of things to me uh it was definitely smaller than last year I know they've said 30,000 I I'm not going to just you know dispute what they're saying they've got their own data sources and whatever I know these events do things in different ways we tend to when we talk about delegate numbers we also talk about people have actually registered

one way or another individual email addresses fo like some events like a lot of consumer events always have these massive numbers and a lot of the time it's like well it's a three or four day event this is how many people came in and out every day right sort of thing but so I don't know where that 30,000 came from I don't know what they the number was last year they if they've listed that I haven't got that to hand but that got be interesting because there's no way they can spin it as not being quieter than last year and that's both on the show floor and in town a little bit how however I have a caveat to there there's a lot of people going there's a lot of kind of snarky people but we should all be going like oh it's over it's dead it's E3 it's never going to happen blah blah the scale is still incredible but the number of people that were there is more than you have any possible chance of meeting you know everybody you could want to meet every major company there'd be someone there right you you you everyone's coming away their their LinkedIn full of I met so and so here all met this weight blah BL thousand meetings you'd still have a lot of meetings the show floor was still stuff to look at we'll talk about that in a bit

and also it was just a bit more pleasant if I'm honest as a as a as a kind of a you know an attendee experience being able to get Space to sit down and have your lunch somewhere being able to actually have a talk to people on stands because it wasn't like four deep but being able to kind of sit down in a hotel even it was it was definitely different to previous years but doesn't the experience was actually kind of better I felt gely we'll talk about again as well I thought there was a there was a kind of quietly quietly I don't upbeats the word but quietly optimistic maybe tone underneath all so it was kind of pleasant San Francisco was also much nicer San Francisco last year kind of bit Hells scapy you know awful for them as well but a lot of homeless people everywhere people awful and this year certainly in the bits I walked through it felt like you know that something been done to address that hopefully for the benefit of those people that have been moved along or put in you know a shelter or whatever as much as the people walking through the streets it felt better I had a good I

enjoyed the trip you know I've come away again thinking oh I missed this and I missed that there's 100 things I wish I do but but yeah definitely Qui uh but not like dead not like on its on its deathbed as a show or anything no absolutely yeah and The Fringe activities as well absolutely as you say definitely kind of a little bit sense that it's lighter but there was so much going on so much going on you could have gone to not not just counting the event itself which had a thousand speaking sessions or something at it I mean you you know around town loads of parties loads Gatherings loads of invitations I mean you could have done 10 things a day after the GDC doors shut right so it was it still felt there was a lot of activity in that I don't know if more but there was more good stuff it felt like off off site like people were building slightly more substantial things I exola had the exola house Netflix had their Netflix thing in they took over the top of the Met andv video had a thing pic thing there was all these other things that were happening outside obviously UK UK D you know Department TR whoever had their

space the work you know meet to match at it space we you know obviously we R PGC which we'll talk about there was a lot of kind of quite decent stuff going on outside the show which as a show organizer is awful I know that and and as a GDC might not like that and that might be behind what they're trying to do in the future this move this Festival Vine but yeah I think there was still a lot there was there's plenty there to to to go on to to have your meetings to get business done to celebrate the to you know the the the where the games industry is and the opportunities I a lot of people I spoke to said they had great show in terms of a business perspective they got a lot done yeah and and and there was things moving again which is is obviously kind of key because there's been a bit of a hold up in the industry for a while with funding and not that's completely gone but but yeah I don't know I I thought I thought the side events were really good including of course maruno amongst them was ours obviously I kind of see GDC as a bit of a reflection of the industry cuz there's

so many people that go so all that kind of the Dooms is about oh this event is on the as on the slides needs to change like maybe it does need to change in some regards to be fair but you know all the layoffs that we've had and they are significant right tens of thousands of people have lost their jobs I'm sure many of which might have gone to this event yeah meanwhile you know these events are very expensive if you want to go into the show so again lots of people that laid offs in the industry or maybe just general think actually can't afford it this time and again businesses are kind of holding back a lot of money and that was another thing you could probably see on the show floor is that they decided it wasn't worth it and also with those side of it I wonder if there's a move to they just want to be closer to the developers and perhaps the boobs don't do that for them anymore so exola renting out the the Howard I think it was like next basically it's just a

better maybe a better way for them to engage existing clients and new potentially new prospects yeah I I think you have more control if you do your own thing you have you can you can decide exactly what goes on how it's branded you can do things in the space without having to go through loads of red tape or pay through the nose for everything so I can understand why why why it is and I agree with you absolutely depending on account it could have been it's 40,000 people in in or around our industry can have lost their roles in the last 18 months now obviously there's been some hiring as well but generally there's a lot of people at work and as you say Studios maybe cut back some projects and they're not like you know it's the same Studio company that's laying off 10,000 people or 500 people or 50 people is probably not in the same breath going oh no let's send all the senior execs to right for for to to GDC well there is an element to which this is definitely a business show like our shows are business shows but there's definitely an element within companies where these trips are kind of seen as like perks or not jolly exactly but the kind of you know part of it is this is a

perk for for the industry and the exec to go out there and I think what you saw this year exactly is I think there still most companies were still there but maybe rather than sending like 20 or 30 people it's like two or three or five unless they were hosting a thing like you know some companies I would have been different service companies still going to send their full compliment but maybe the game developments teams and some of the tools and stuff just didn't go as full on you also had and this is notable and we didn't we haven't talks about this anywhere yet and I've not seen it mentioned Nvidia who are still you know very important part of a games e system the sort of people you'd expect to have a big Booth considering how much money they're making right now I'm sure G GDC would have expected that and hoped for that they they're running their own show down the road Ani show fair enough it's not a game show explicitly but I'm sure sure a lot of people will either go to that as well or would have looked at that instead to to check that out but yeah where Nvidia you might expected a big booth in the future like they

basically had what I could only describe as a popcorn popcorn stand or like it's basically they might just put like a an A4 thing on the wall going Nvidia was here you know tear off a strip for for a phone number and contact us it was I mean you know great they've chipped some money into GDC and I think it's important to support these events otherwise any reason you know with all there doesn't exist but yeah it was kind of funny that it was kind of like almost not insulting I'm sure it wasn't tend that way but felt a little bit like okay yeah we're definitely supporting you what's the absolute cheapest thing we can do and the lowest do do you can we can we sponsor the you know can we sponsor the shoe scrapers outside or something sorry we're sorry we're hosting a side event we'll support you with this yeah yeah yeah know and we're hosting a side event and and I you know we we we as event organizers we don't particularly love it when everyone's doing their own thing because because the core event this is what happened with E3 I think e3's demise completely a lot of different factors not just this

but one of those issues is if everybody starts going outside they all go it's great everyone's in town I'll come I'm G do my thing here but if the main event doesn't survive then everyone isn't in town and then they've got a then you know bringing people together getting people together that's a really valuable thing when everybody will automatically come to a place together that's and that's not hard that's not easy to generate there's not many events we've been going 11 years making events and we've getting some really great traction with some of our events now but but it's still not on the scale of a Gamescom or a GDC or or E3 as was and like you know you've got to kind of try and support these things where where you can that said I'm not here to shill for Informer I'm sure they're they're big boys they can look after themselves and they might be a little bit complicit in their own you know in their own kind of struggles a little bit with pricing and everything but um but I do hope that we find a balance and that that that you know it can it can grow but I I don't I you know I don't know what the economics are but I don't sense that that was it didn't

feel like an event that was just on the verge of dying you just felt if you went for the first time you go wow this is great look at the games stuff going on if you been for the last you know 20 years or four years or whatever you go oh it's a bit smaller Now isn't it what's going on I would say that um there's a mix of things right some people are like well Gamescom is kind of where it's at now and then but some other people one uh what one CEO was just like he's been going to GGC for like 21 years and he said actually could have been a reflection of his business needs but he said that this was probably he had his most substantial meetings he's probably ever had this year probably because there was fewer people and people a bit more focused exactly you can you probably have a better chance of getting in and I think also as you said it's a reflection of the industry the industry's had a couple of difficult years like different parts of it are running different speeds I think mobile has been has been more robust and is recovering faster PC console had still in the do drums in in many respects um just just because of

the the the the cost profile you know of those games and the The Limited audience the competition but but it did feel like maybe now the Taps are turning on like the Publishers now need projects Again Farm investment is coming in from wherever it's coming not necessarily VC is a whole different topic but but money is kind of starting to flow a little bit and and Publishers are realizing they need projects again so we've gone through this period of stuff being canceled canceled canceled and now they're looking to sign so if you're a developer out there you know a l there's still more Supply than than demand but but you know there's a chance of getting big projects I I also spoke to some people had there who said they had an incredible you know it's been an amazing event for them in terms of sort of deals and agreements signed and you know so it was that with the with the developers as well you're absolutely right I went to the day of the devs cuz talking about Fringe events they had the it was really big they had a they took over space down by the Waterfront the the day before and people were queuing around the block to get in it was a genuine Blockbuster all the way around the corners to get in and the event itself was full of developers

and so I think as well as speaking to the fact that there were all these Fringe events taking place I think it was quite a good place to go if you wanted to see new games so yeah it was a bit smaller but not not dead so if we want to talk about other other Trends about it like I said I I think and we said a few individual companies seem to have really good times I think there was and it happened in London as well PGC London I came out of it quite buyant I always you know enjoy our event it's a brilliant event everybody loves it it's nice when everybody loves the thing you do right and I I came out of that and underlying for the m stre a lot there was a lot of different strands coming together not people weren't like popping sham K courts everywhere but they were it was upbeat again it wasn't go oh God we're worried about this and no we have to it was more like we can see the path to growth now it's not the same it was we've got to do things differently but things are happening things are moving mobile certainly and other spaces is moving and I think GDC felt like a continuation of that like it was kind of not again not everybody popping champagne cors or Street parties but they were there was a kind of underlying optimism

and and I know like I say in in snarks toown Media Town you won't necessarily hear that all the time but because there was also you know negativity but it it would be very easy to to paint a negative picture but generally I think in it's less pretty exciting and less good for clicks but but generally there is a sort of a mood amongst large waves of the industry not all of it that you know the opportunities are coming around again that that that revenues are peeking up that that we've kind of adjusted we're getting back on our getting our mojo back and and it's maybe not where we were in the pandemic or even pre pandemic exactly the same but we're adjusting to what steiny calls a new normal and we're kind of building again and I I felt from a lot but there's a lot of kind of this just general upbeat Vibe you know going around I say it wasn't kind of crazy parties or anything but it was kind of generally things things are things are right things are good we think we're gonna have a good year so did you feel that Dave did that yeah I did did and you know it's it's it is interesting

there were um you know you see what you seek out and I took it upon myself to to to take note of um the AI games that are out there this is something I'm following at the moment you know I do this newsletter for for Pocket Gamer called AI game changers and so I was Tak there was loads of people using those tools interesting ways I saw loads of games came came way and some really big people getting into that into that space and so I you know I saw some really really exciting things in that area so you that that was interesting I saw you know there were there were um like I mentioned at some of these Indie Fringe events loads of really creative people perhaps spurred on by the fact that maybe they lost their day job at a bigger company starting Indie Studios and things some really really competent indie games that I saw in a number of the the activities that were around the um uh around the space you know there was the day of the devs there was courage as well there was the thing at the um next to the mosone center where um GDC takes place there was there's the Children's Museum and they had a game day in there didn't they which you lot of interesting showcase thing yeah and that I guess this is in our job like we're I'm you're writing stuff you know you managed stuff I'm sort of trying to

sell stuff or get deals done you know you don't get to play All the Time games not or see as many games which is is a sad thing about being in the industry rather than being a player and yeah and I saw a lot of good games and some real quality out there and and I think you could see as is always the case but the Indie level is where the Innovation coming where the new ideas are coming from and and I think and I think there's a new bit maybe a bit not of respect but a recognition of that and and and a feeling that maybe it's not all about triaa I saw a couple of things predicting the Future these big panels in there talking about what we should need to do and it was much more talking about MVP getting out quickly you know do doing something you know let's get out there test the audience and not five years spend hundreds of millions it was more about learning from the kind of Indie triple I I guess or or a rather than Tria a I think that what's AAA daa certainly is a market that's struggling a little bit to find its you know to see if it's you know where where it goes because you

know we've seen some big fails and obviously those bets are really big and there were on this panel I say there's a lot of these luminary characters talking been around the industry for a long time and they were they were saying you know if I if I had x million like 50 milon 100 million I'd be probably making 20 50 100 indie game bets rather than trying to put it all into one or two big games challenge for those is that is launch I went to the newu presentation so newu have got their updated report for this year and it was the admittedly this was the the PC PC and um console games one so mobile um talk but that that I went to that presentation what was interesting was the number of overall games players in the world is growing the number of hours spent gaming is growing the number of games is growing but it's really hard to to break in because almost all game time I think it's like 67% or something now is spent on on games that are over six years old so there's definitely the other Trend that that they they explicitly talked about on stage but I think we can also observe is as you say there is all there's a lot of indie games coming in but a lot of where gamers are spending their time on these kind of long running franchises forever games forever games

franchises all that that's a challenge that the the I me is a challenge but but but but to have a forever game or franchise to launch a new one of those I was I was making a LinkedIn comment about this the other day about about why this is completely different top about why I think Savvy scope pleas spending three and a half billion on Pokemon go is probably GNA look like good business in a couple of years and people going oh it's a bit a lot isn't it but actually to get a forever game to get a game is so hard like this they spent well over a billion with go and and I people don't notice I always get surprised when I find it out again there's been like almost seven years of development to get Monopoly go multiple teams involved now fair enough a lot of some of that's post but so much work has gone in and and that wasn't a guaranteed success either but you know that is there so much effort to get a new game out of scale that that um that yeah that that you know buying something that that's already in there that's why you're getting all this kind of all this consolidation is is it seems like a much smarter play whereas smaller games like the return the because your outlay is so

much smaller you don't need to get be top of the App Store if you've got you know and and if you you it's like VCS if you get a bunch of of Investments you only need one or two of them to go off if you're lucky you get a batro but there's not many of those I appreciate but that theatro is probably the most mentioned game I think in every talk or space I went to it's probably it was up there with Ai Ai and batro were the things that were kind of mentioned a lot I didn't see loads of talks but the ones I did you know that was always a kind of a dropped a dropped name just because it's you know the outlay to the success is is incredible so I think I I beat but yeah there's there's definit challenges there's to there's too many games and as you say people aren't playing it's hard to get people into new games so yeah some of the points that you made there like one of the problems I think GDC had this year is just there was no really big exciting announcements there's no state of unreal for example which I literally cleared my morning for and then fil and then found out Netflix was on but not that that's a sore

subject mentioned it a bunch of times but yeah there there's no so there there's nothing there's no big buzz around that I guess and I guess and the big games this time like they're great like batro astrobot I think there probably wasn't many like I don't think there were many like huge games that developers were also talking about that was really getting people excited oh hideio kima's in town and they're going to talk about Metal Gear or Fox engine like that I remember that was years ago but that was like quite exciting at the time I I think didn't really capture that I think I think 2025 has a problem in the a lot of people are waiting for Grand Theft Auto 6 right this is this is taking up a lot of the oxygen and I I was was joking with um Ben Porter from newu and he said you know trying to find advice for people trying to launch new games and I said is so is the advice be Grand Theft Auto if you want to be be in games and he went do you know how much to Grand budget is I saw this in a post I don't I haven't verified this do you know how much is being spent on this I presume it's includes the marketing plans as well what number would you go

up to and this is in a LinkedIn post I haven't verified this but someone put yeah what do you think Dave I don't know it's Monopoly I don't know a a two billion what dollars two billion two billion dollar it's more to build the Burge Khalifa that's that was the argument hey didn't is is that the entire cost of the Star Wars franchise to Disney I mean yeah like that's yeah ex you could you could buy a chunk of Marvel I mean like that's and again i' I've got to go through and properly vet those figures and what they came from but it is going to be the most expensive game ever I don't know how they've calculated that exactly ex but but but still and the expectation is it will make a return right probably a decent one and it will gone for for years to come but but that is the problem that is the problem of competing in the high end is you're up against stuff like that even in the mobile high end you're up against Monopoly go spending a billion dollars on on UA like you're not going to compete just like

Let It Go you're not going to be up there like it's like we run a great conference I'm not sitting there going oh how can I beat Gamescom that's happening that's the thing over there great love it love going there but you know maybe in a few years but right now it's kind of like you've got to find your lane and that's what it's about you got to find the opportunity the need you can get into and and make money like and I think this is this is why the VC one of the reasons the VC thing one of the common topics that I heard in conversation around is that that VC's are kind of back and these investors are back but only really meaningfully at kind of seed and you know maybe up to series a level after that there's just the appetite just isn't there because you know you're either obviously going to be the next GTA or monop go or or or it's clear by the time you got series a you're not and so this the big problem with games now is and and for triaa games is that the money required to really push in is not necessarily there certainly not from VCS

it might be there from from Publishers it might be there from other metrics but they're going to back things to get started they see there still is some opportunities in content but again they're moving they've always have been really they're looking all more in in in um into more tools and platforms and and and you know and not so much in individual content but there is money coming out there for for game studios again so that was yeah so that was an interesting thing I I don't know there was also a little bit of there's a little bit which I'm kind of Happy about a little bit of a um a counter points now to the ultimate respect that the haed off into VC's and now a little bit more of a all right are you guys experts why are we listening to you guys anymore like you know when we actually needed you you all off pardon my French and and and you know and like so what do you know about games again anyway I'm seeing more more kind of chats and posts about that and it's a little bit less maybe kind of everyone needs money and they need to Bow and scrap to get it but a little bit more difference to the kind of these kind of masters of the financial investment

Universe there I like that in the industry now uh maybe there's a bit more honesty going around people are like kind of having their say to VCS and also to the platform holders that they not as scared anymore I don't know what that come where that comes from maybe it's experience now the industry's been around for a while and a lot of tough times that people are humor right it's just Gallows it's like I've been left to to to battle it out I'm still here so take you all on it's a bit of that isn't it so what what did you what did you I mean there's there's other things I saw what did you see what was noticeable to you Craig is there anything else you kind of saw that really stood out so so uh a couple things I wrote my takeaways article I'll link in the description one of the things I noticed uh was just again on the show Flor there was just no engine game engine companies that's amazing isn't it which I couldn't development conference there's no game development massive tools I mean there was like on the schedule like Unity had its I think developer day or developer

Summit for for a couple days so you know they were there but it also at a time when Unity is still recovering its reputation yeah thought epic and and godo would would uh be like in there again like last year saying come on use our engine it just wasn't wasn't any of that like at least visibly so that that kind of shocked me and I think epics just making it like they they just want to create their own audience now so they're moving it stad of unreal to to Unreal Fest Etc and then the other thing was we spoke a bit about AI I'd say that was the big trend of the show but it's like it's just a trend that probably will never have like a major announcement unless it is I I don't know like unreal announcers like just make a game or click of a button done but then developers will be like what the hell there's a bit then I mean there are there are tools that are kind of touting

that and some or approaching that and I don't I don't think it's there yet but there are a couple of companies there that were saying things like that but you're right the kind of a major announcement thing the thing about about AI is that it's been and I like the fact working in this uh you know in the sector being a journalist in for Tech and games but there's so much kind of disruption activity but it's almost like we've got a little bit used to it now you know you go you're talking about um the latest open AI model and the next week deep seek comes along and everyone's talkinging about that and so it's almost like there's this kind of rolling you know stream of improvements and changes so you aren't you aren't going to see suddenly you know an event like GDC some kind of big roll out or something there there just seems to be a sort of persistent I think I think with AI as well though again talking from panels and more conversation there was a lot of it's a lot of angles on on AI people talking about agents and using AI for motion capturing and specific things and I think there's there there's there's a bit of a Evolution as we've SE we we moved from AI Wonder to practical Ai and that's it's definitely in the Practical AI phase but there's also in that kind of sort of like pushing back lack of deference that there's also a

bit of like okay well we know what a we don't want AI to do and we AI is actually not that great for and and and there was some criticism of of of tools somebody was mentioning this kind of quote which has also been on LinkedIn was was in this talk I was in I was saying that that some big AI company or company or analyst probably gone oh in 2025 50% of people will be using uh a code will be made by AI in 2026 100% of C be made by Ai and this other guy goes yeah in7 2027 it'll be like 50% of codee and then 2028 there'll be loads of work for coders to go in and work out what the hell ai's been building UNP the bad we be taking all apart again and it is that kind of thing where you know we all see it we all play the AI and there is that the moment of Wonder is and that immediate return is incredible but it's never quite what you want and getting it to do exactly what you want and to have control of it and to have to kind of have agency and and and and and and you know you can't in a narrative game they was talking about example of using AI for NPCs and they said like after the

first 50 maybe but like in a in a in a narrative game which has quests and has a tone you want to control you can't just leave that open to like random like the control is just not there like everybody tooking off going completely different things you know there's definitely some you know value in in in scripted experiences but the interesting thing you have to control it is they're talking about is kind of about the the fences within which you the tools for control of the AI you know give it some obviously part of it is it's creative but it's how to keep it Bound in within the game I tell you what on that note there's you're absolutely right there's a kind of a couple of sort of ways that AI is being used the kind of couple buckets I'm interested that we're going to the second one so the first one is processors that we already had using AI to accelerate them and use them faster in our development pipeline right they're getting it to write and create stuff and that seemed to be a topic of conversation in the last couple of years but then there's the question about what actual new at runtime experiences could we use AI to to create and I what I did see I feel was more of that more people

not saying well okay fair enough we can get a to do stuff for us in the office but more like what actually is he going to bring to bring to games and that was interesting and I saw um this might took you Chris because it's actually reminds me of uh like 20 years ago when we were talking about the sort of artificial reality games leaking out into the world there was great idea for I know but now with AI there's some um opportuni to do that so I met a company called operative who was formed by a couple of veterans from the an entertainment industry the guy a guy who was founded P worked on the Pandora really early on um very senior guy from Disney they founded this company and basically what it is is they they let me have a go they they they've got this experience where you have ai agents but you call you give a telephone number and you ring this AI agent is answered by a very realistic sounding person who's in a hospital and it's like oh thank God you rang I need you to find this thing out and across that and zoom calls and websites together this and it's been planned by Hollywood TV script writers to to follow a kind of season pattern um which they end there be a

cliffhanger and then you you subscribe to a season at a time and they're using these AI agents to basically take this game out out into the real world and so you you you you kind of ring the operative and play I thought that was interesting it was just interesting seeing somebody using the AI not not to just design the graphics for them or you know or write their marketing materials which you heard a lot of in the last two years but to actually at runtime create a gaming experience there's been a couple haven't there got out already but they're they're a bit random and a bit kind of you know like early days of Roblox or something I wanted to there's two things I remind I was talking what one of the about AI Segways nicely is one of the things again that came up on a couple of these panels went I always go to the fut looking panels and this and and and I went to a couple of individual talks which are far too technical for me and then I went to kind of a few Visionary what's going to happen the next five years everyone make that mistake every year I end up like walking you end up in something which sounds great it's about how super cell did this thinging in bro star and it starts out really well and then it gets into code level stuff um but um but no there's an interesting point made by one of the kind of creative agencies or creative

Studios and she was talking about she's industry veteran and she was talking about what she wants from AI which is an AI her she wants someone with her tastes for for writing or art style creation to be able to expand her kind of output right so sort of Riff a little bit off what she want she doesn't want a general AI do everything as she wants to go well I've got my you know I've evolved my U my my my output of games or or scripts or artwork or whatever and I I now want I want an AI me to go and and do try and create more of it and see which of it I like and stuff that was kind of seen as a bit of a holy grail for for AI in the creative space where it's kind of a it's not replacing you but it's kind of augmenting you because it is it's an AI you not an AI replacing you if that makes sense but then she was also saying oh God so bad remember the name should have had my notes this didn't prepare very well but but that it was the problem with that is at the moment they have to have so much data to train these

AI models that by Nature they are kind of very kind of generalized because they've been trained off to get an AI to a certain the language model to a certain level has to have so much data so you need a massive raw database behind it so just your own stuff might not be enough at the moment that that's technical problem you can't do I don't know if i' want that or not it kind of feels cool that feels like it's your that is when you can send your work your second brain right you just like do this that's cool but that that's like that to me at the moment that sounds like a lot of the chatter around web we have with web 3 that it was like oh this is what it could do and it's all kind of like really far away or maybe doesn't actually it's not you can't actually do it for example whereas some of the AI stuff is actually quite interesting because they're using it now that's you use it now you can I I think AI Tech been every every studio is using some of it even if it's just as simple as taking notes or yeah yeah testing some headlines but but but yeah but I

think that was Holy Grail the web 3 thing you might be segueing into I I was going to say just as a segue that it might go into what you think I think that AI might actually be this year's killer app for web 3 actually of the because AI agents that can transact with crypto and can play games a lot of the web 3 companies I saw were talking about this and and particularly should shout out to Saga you know they're publishing platform they run a platform they they're doing loads their agents they had their own Fringe event at in GDC and one of the things they would do but there's a number of companies including um we had at Pocket Gamer connect San Francisco we had Mighty bear games Simon Davis the CEO was there and and he's doing stuff with AI agents so a lot of web companies are finding that they they can actually deliver stuff with with AI agents in in there were some big there were some big web three I mean because yeah again from a part of the problem with a lot of web three games experiences is volume of players same with metaverse right like there some interesting stuff going on but there's not of people there so maybe AI has a role to fill there but I did there was still there's still web3 money somewhere

because there's still big web3 company booze on the show floor some of the biggest there was like Regional Booth there's web3 booth there was about 17 motion capture studio booth 10 cent boo 10 cent was the biggest by far 10 was the biggest booth and 10cent was very much 10cent it was interesting all this talk about 10cent breaking up and not being able to own non-chinese companies it was it was all their companies it was they were not shy yeah they were very much going you know we're not just the 10cent games made in China where these are the companies we own these are the big IPS you've got that was quite cool and they're giving away the Penguins and stuff as well and and yeah meta had a big Booth VR they vring there I guess was only really them this year doing it at scale I think Amazon was the the one that had the biggest one I think Pokey had a big pretty big Booth again poke I mean they're doing well that's web web that's web gaming that's another big that's true seem to be well they seem to be capturing that really nicely I know that addiction games is doing some stuff in the space as well what's that they have 90 million monthly

active us that's huge that's for for engage I know say like we're looking at that with Enthusiast parent with parent addicting has got you know had a really big following it's growing up again and has plans there but pokey's really the leading the way in that space the moment that's really good I have to also say that web free companies going into AI is very web free of them pragmatic what's the next big what's the next thing we could get money for well it's a little bit you you can you can see these kind of these companies that reversed out of one thing into web three and now going well no we're not we're more an AI company it's that exactly I joke about the the LinkedIn expert who's oh I'm a metaverse expert I'm a web through expert oh know I'm an AI expert just that constant these kind of individuals just in some ways you know I respect the the G the hustle right yeah the hustle that's it the G this is especially in America this is what it's all about now live in the land of the Griff this is the gri the hustle just just keep repeating it and

maybe it comes true I think that's I mean I'm not anti- web 3 I I I think there's still some interesting use cases I think I think the the worst thing that happened to it was the was the ludicrous level and I think it didn't just damage web 3 I think it damaged the whole game's investment ecosystem because because suddenly we went from Big investments into games which actually had a business model to even bigger investments into completely unproven business models in this web 3 thing would it be the next mobile no will it be the next you know cons no it's not it's going to be something different and it's just not it's not there yet and and yeah there's some cool stuff in there but it's it's not you know no one's the only games that really hitting are regular games that kind of have a web three component potentially behind them those are the the the games that people are uh you know talking about I would say like there wasn't web free like it was a few years ago when you had packed out sessions at GDC for some of those and I think it was we made SL weix they had banners everywhere they were the

biggest sponsor by far fre deal I know how much they paid for it as I watering and that's kind of the problem is is the problem with the booths and the show for unlike PG conect events which very reasonably priced very reasonbly priced yeah and it's and I don't think it's entirely down to kind of like organiz a greed or anything I think it's just American economics like you know you've got the space is ridiculous then you've got to pay you know for the the labor and everything's got to go through this structured Union system so we're coming up to time but I guess any any two hours any imagine just just a podcast you can listen to throughout your entire work day radio show is it I thought we're doing a radio show yeah wait a minute are we invented radio James O'Brien I'm a James O'Brien with like more bags than so do you have any do you have any final thoughts final takeaways before we uh we end the show I think there's a there's a my feeling was gdc's still here and it's still going to be in in San Francisco next year

apparently it's be more of a festival 40th anniversary with them next year um so I think gdc's not going anywhere despite some of the headlines elsewhere and I think it I think the games industry is not going anywhere and and I think there's an underlying optimism it's it is awful people have lost their jobs and it's tough I it's still tough out there in certain spaces but as an industry we're we're still strong there's a lot of camaraderie the the the general kindness and and tolerance I don't know that I still wouldn't change this industry for any other industry in the world like I wouldn't want to be you know I wouldn't want to be an investment bank or I wouldn't want to be there's much more money can be made in other things but I still feel these are my people and I I came out of GDC feeling optimistic happy and and and and I'm sort of broadly you know generally happy part of this inry and looking forward to a load of great events in Dubai in May Barcelona June Shanghai in July and then games come then Helsinki and and more to

come I came back positive yeah I can't I can't add that really was you know you're absolutely right about the games industry I think that was something that was very you know very palpable at pocket gameer connect San Francisco as well and um uh and actually the support the industry is getting too I mean we we didn't mention it but you know Peter mandon the new uh you know ambassador to the United States attended GDC was at the he was at the Uki event on on the Tuesday or whatever and you know there was there was AC so I think I think that the um the games IND has got still got um a lot of a lot of inph in it and and is getting focus from you know from from the world so yeah my takeway Sor chrisy for anyone that doesn't know Peter Manson uh yeah there was a good joke that you referenced Dave I was just I was just thinking uh yeah if you search I guess uh if you search the word Sith in yeah so Peter Manson is is currently our ambassador to the United States but he was made a lord in the United Kingdom some time ago and there was a joke on TV when I think it was Frankie Bo who here in the news said who made him a lord the Sith which gives you some ideas about house some people feel about Peter Manson in the UK but but but nonetheless

a man with influence who was who was attended San Francisco last week and I think the games industry does I think the you the governments internationally that's the one FAL thing I want to say there was a lot of kind of not a lot but there was there was definitely government representation obviously UK people but you know I think governments around the world s we're seeing with our Partnerships and our activities are seeing the value of the games ecosystem and uh the value of for for for the community and as a business and and as as a gainful employment and also how it can bring people together take that Southgate you don't what you're talking about yeah just to wrap up yeah I I agree like I think the show was down this year it probably does need to make change changes sounds like it is making some changes I think it looks like that companies just want that close relationship that they're not getting on the show floor which we'll see if we'll see we'll see how they adapt to that in future years but I I still think it's a reflection of the industry and so

hopefully as the industry hopefully bounces back over the next couple of years we'll see GDC do that I don't think it needs to become a Gamescom but I'm sure it could learn from it as well right thank you very much for being on the show thank you thank good to have you good to have you again Chris and great to have you for the first time anytime anytime Craig up for a chatting about stuff you need to lengthen it it's not enough I've shortened the show people don't have the attention spans anymore thank you very much for anyone that's already listen for anyone that's still listening thank you all right yeah that brings us to an end so have a great weekend thanks for listening and we'll see you again on the next one goodbye