two & a half gamers session #22 - How to predict game performance? What is Tilting Point's secret?

[Music] welcome everybody this is an all gaming podcast on have gamer session number 22 we're discussing the latest industry news having fun having a lot of fun dropping knowledge but let's not forget again this is 4:00 a.m. conference discussion Vibe please stop being so serious and today we have a special episode we have Felix admon Guru braber again yakob game design specialist myself UA um U bro M and a special guest enrik super important VP of growth Pedro at tilting point will come but let's let's do a quick round of intros because that's uh favorite activity of Felix and we've uh didn't do it for for a long time so please hry

start uh let's start with you so thank you I'm super important BP of growth as you said it so I over see um fil Point uh fil point for those you that know we are a mobile game publisher um where our motto um is to change developers lives um myself at the company I oversee um UA Organics um Ado on the featuring team and we handle or manage about um 40 games although this number fluctuates a little bit because since we do live publishing some games come on board and others go but um yeah good to good to be here today nice Felix how about yourself I try to get as much adarp though as possible from games I'm like an octopus on the reef that's you okay good to know yob let let's continue with you yeah um currently serving as head of monetization at reply uh but pretty much

doing all game designning stuff I've been doing that for like s years now lot of games uh behind and lot on Gaye I hope waiting there to be designed yeah and his favorite thing is also hugging a microphone the other Hobby and uh myself mat lerich I'm well doing all the UA fun stuff for some companies around the world creatives as well and and uh yeah yeah let's I think let's let's dive in so today we'll be discussing how tilting Point became a record chip everything from UA Adon game design web free activities and much more but before uh diving into the topic hit the Subscribe button guys and uh you let's uh let's do that on YouTube Spotify and so let's dive in let's dive in so enri like enri like my first question here is one that I've

heard like about a year ago okay I have a friend of mine who works at Gman Sachs in New York and he said that basically both JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs have been trying to snap up as many shares of possible of tilting point in the secondary Market from current employees and former employees and have been offering quite a hefty markup uh for these shares what the hell are you guys up to and how are you growing so fast what's going on full disclosure I have not been poached by any of those nor tried to do so I'm holding on those for for for the time being um what's the U what's the secret the secret is I think um the market speaks by itself and um there are a few companies in the space that are able to um evolve as Market evolves didn't work out too well but that's how it is um so Market became gaming as it is and mobile moreover it changes almost I would say

quarter year basis and tilting p is able to adapt and assist um small developers to become um bigger entities in the space so that's ultimately as I mentioned earlier on the introduction our motto is To Change developers lives and as such if you think about it on the paper if you are able to identify a a gem or a golden night if you will in the mob in the cred mobile space yeah and you are able to to um grow this game um to a substantial UA span and so on and revenue obviously um that's um music to any Investor's ears and so I think all in all after doing this for a few years now um some of our D competitors have basically disappeared and we knew that they were going into the space with questional um markups on the games that we were actually trying to poach as well and time put everyone on it on its place

and the point is still standing to this day whereas others are not anymore so I think that kind of things you good story on why these B's Banks and so on are eager to get um some I think we worked we all worked at one of those uh companies that are disappearing at I'm not dropping I'm not dropping any names just in we we not yeah we're not dropping any names as well but you know we've been there done that it's great you mentioned um these these gems in terms of the companies like it's really interesting to see that you know you are managing 40ish companies like how are you actually able to identify these these companies so early like how do you snipe like these companies because looks like you talked I think to almost every possible company out there every time I I triy to talk to like like fex octopus yeah octop yeah that's octopus right there there tilting point is also an

octopus on the reef but a bit bigger one um we are cracking um so basically um our our to start with our business development um team does I think an outstanding um role or job um being um able to um have these meaningful discussions with small um Indie developers it's not that easy to speak the same language that's one and then um Beyond bringing on board these several developers with at least good intentions or good products and in the works or recently released our um data for insight team does a really good job as well on um giving us or giving pointers to the team B on what is that we should be looking for a game once we get this game into our in um or um we start having these discussions with the

developer and then it's a matter for us we normally going to do a short um UA or a small UA test small quote unquote it's going to depend on the developer the game and so on and I think one of the be that tilting fund has that not many mobile game developers have or do is that we really do an effort to adapt to the developer needs I know it sounds a bit of a cliche but not each developer is an individual human being and it has its own um rational and its own um Vision on why they want to dat the company some of them their dream is going to be in two years time I don't want to do mobile gaming just want to sell my company and do something else others want to become a gaming Juggernaut and have a big Studio managing several titles um obviously each you know it's a different take on its respectable position as a developer um and as such we try to we do we do an active effort to adapt to this developer needs or what's their Vision long mid

longterm Vision um and that sounds really nice but when it comes down to manage the game and internally to manage the growth so on it can be challenging because two yes two game non game are equal as as a given but moreover we need to keep in mind okay what this developer is going after or why we on board this developer why are they working on a different game or you know there are different rationals so we always have to keep that in mind um because ultimately again we are helping developers to um Elevate the developers on their games but um it comes down to what's their ultimate goal goal and how we can match that at tilt with tilt Point meaning that on some instances this might not happen the developer might have an outrageous uh acquisition number and then I'm just going to give you r i want to get paid $100 million for this game I like dude this is not doesn't make any sense your me it's making one million or so yeah sure good luck with that others have either don't know what I'm doing so you guys tell me how we should do next

and so it really depends on the on the conversation um but all in all is I think um adapting ourselves and evolving with the market as I was thinking earlier it helps a lot to kind try to um find these gems but um it sounds like we or it sounds from the outside or looks like from the outside that we are really good at it to be honest it's a matter of keep trying keep trying keep trying keep trying if it was that easy everyone will be doing it right so it takes a lot of time and a lot of resources yeah just one one thing maybe take take a step back because um I'm wondering like how is your company structured because you say BD do these things you have insights from different uh departments you do the UA tests like how does that connect to all these like uh processes how you evaluate games sure sure um to be fair I joined tilting point about a year ago so a lot of my work actually in the last um few quarters um has been

on on improving this existing process um or what it should be or where we think we should be at to be actually more effective and less time consuming and less resource consuming so how it to your question M How would how we work out or what's at least my vision on how it should work out um from the BD inside we have an ongoing weekly call we have SL is our goto so everything communication and so on I mean that's that's a given okay then we have um a weekly where we are reviewing um for one hour we're reviewing um the incoming Life publishing titles and then an additional hour we're reviewing the in um ongoing deals where one of our Studios think that this could be a good Prospect to acquire either the asset the game or the studio um obviously these are ongoing conversations not like they have once like that's once a week for every single week of the year um so with that we have a really good feedback loop or are we improving into that into learning on understanding what works and

what doesn't work now to the second part of the equation and once we have this deal on board what we do what we do is what we call it a growth assessment where our UA team looks into what the developer has done in the past Facebook um Google Unity whatever it is have done advertis team looks at how the game is currently being monetized what SDK they have in place random one if they don't have Facebook SDK okay that's going to be a quick 10 or 20% increase on that Revenue so check and then Organics look into Estates okay how many metadata and how is there metadata on the stores how many a have been doing what is there any countries where you can take more volume out of that so all you know all these put together give us a a a a coefficient percentage um on a confidence percentage that are said on How likely we think or how much we think that we can grow this game and for for and for how many months

this assessment is then passed back to BD who has these conversations with a developer and then we align in terms of okay this is the tilting One Vision that we have for your game and then once we align with the developer on that Vision that's when it's likely for us to um you know proceed with a proper test a UA test 10K 15K 5K it really again it really depends on the game genre and so on once we do this test we see um um we see that um the pltv um um is towards the right direction and we so that we can do a profitable operation with this game because we're not don't get me wrong we're not going to spend money we within that this of course yeah it wouldn't make any sense there you go and then if we see that is working and we agree with the developer on the terms and so on that's when we sign um the io or a contract with them and then we have we start our um cooperation um I think yeah I don't know that's that's that we have but that's how we try to um operate

is there a product kind of angle there somewhere in the equation during the evaluation that's such a really good point there is uh there is a product uh review in place yes but I do believe that um it's it's it's hard to okay we ultimately end up relying on what the developer is willing to work on the game and they work work or capabilities now you as a developer I'm going to ask you okay show me your road map and you're going to show me I know six month road map that's a good sign show me the road map oh we don't have a road map that's a bad side yeah that's a bad that's a sign that maybe we should step back on that one so as developer listen into this please showcase a road map at least it shows your intentions on fishings new product and updates and so on now it's I know it's an obvious point and everyone's be like du but developers

that I do see doing best are those that have a clear um again Vision or idea on where their game product should be at and what their next features and or updates are going to bring to the table that being said um one of the issues that we are facing or most developers faces are are Google anrs app non responsives and when we see many min games that have well over the I think 0.4 47 or % 47 47 thank you on the threshold um there there is The Benchmark from on the general Etc but we see many games are doing well and they're sitting at I don't know 1.5 1.8 and it's like guys we need to work on these anrs first but again it's way easier said than done and this a super complicated topic and ultimately you're managing or you're discussing with a developer who has limited resources and as such you're like hey guys either I fix anrs which I didn't have a guaranteed of success rate or I release this other feature update or product

update which is might um improve our Dow by X or improve redention by y so it's a bit of like juggling or balancing between um between those topics so back to the product um question yes there is a a a review on that and obviously when we see that there is an active um work from the developer on improving that product and then it's when we actually as a as a publisher we even invest more resour more time because we can tell that there is an active effort from the other side as well to make this happen without existing title okay two following followup questions so what happens when you have you have you're starting to work with the developers and they have the road map and they have some Vision but you come in you see like okay so this is most probably not going to work as you think and we have a different Vision like how do you try to convince the developer like hey guys so we are the experts here we know how this should work so please just try to work

on this it's a yes it's a touchy subject right um we we believe or I believe that um the developer the product owner is ultimately who the person who knows best what their product is about and what's ultimately as we said earlier their Vision I know that I can I or my team can bring to the table one of the best if not the best growth strategies or teams that we have because okay we can we can obviously have some every now and then but over overall I think that we know what we're doing yeah so I have no um when it comes to um grow the strategy or how we're setting up campaigns how we're optimizing and so on um you can give me your opinion that I'm I'm quite confident that our team is topn or you know a level on that regard on the product side of things on some instances um we're going to ask our existing Studios um so we have we've have several students which manage

different generes or type of games from puzzle to Forex we're going to ask them hey can you do a a review on the game and provide some feedback to the developer and what they should be um working on improving on but these are suggestions we cannot um twist your arm or developer arm to do this instead we will will'll try to have a friendly open communication um again easier said than done and I'm sorry for previous developers who work with that but some of them are a pin in the ass or the human being is an so if you are you are if you are if you are obnoxious human being that the team hates to work with well guess what's going to happen next I'm I'm GNA have a really hard time asking the team to do to go the extra mile to work with you instead if you are a good a good person if you are an easy person to work with and you you leave you know you give but you take some as well that's when it the cooperation tends to work better because ultimately it's not me or me it's not

tilting Point against the developer is literally it's like call it a a dating process where we get to know each other and we go out for dinner and maybe I'm at you home next thing you know maybe I'm asking you for the ring and you say yes so that's that's the um you want to put it in a in a life in life terms that's told you know we're going after for that marriage but um some instances after the second or third day we like what thought or what the the Tinder profile showed on the description was an actual reality so in those instances like well have to step um step away and say hey this partnership isn't working out so um we're going to just cut it and we try to be as well as polite and easy to the part ways as possible too yeah that's that that's life I mean you can't be just uh you can't work with everybody on the world and you just can't go well correct correct I'm bit curious actually like so let's say I'm a developer I have

metrics for my game I want to bring it to tilting Point like what is it exactly you look for in terms of metric are you able to share a bit of that I'm assuming something around retention or like what is it um we look um so we go quite in depth with your data so we're going to request and actually everything you can provide us normally it's going to be it's going to come down to your MMP axis um so um it's hopefully it's either singular adjust or apps Fire when the developer comes on board and has happened in the past where they are managing or there a small developers don't have the means to do so so they're relying on free sdks or Firebase and the likes that's a bit more complicated to manage so what we're looking to your question everything um from retention to arow to um LTV curve to R um how what they have been running in the past and how much more we think we can scale the game that ultimately at least to the growth them is what's going

to dictate what we should do with this game because if I get a game on the pipeline and we don't believe that we are able to scale this game at least 20% or more I'm going to it's a waste of our time it's a waste of our time it's a it's a waste of their time now it's a different it's again I mentioned earlier we try to be as we try to adapt to um developer needs as much as we can so it could well be that there are Maybe short in cash and hey I don't I don't require your um growth expertise I just need money um to recoup um passer so we can discuss that or maybe we do a a fee deal where hey I'm not I know that we are not going to end up marrying but we can be really good friends yeah close friends so with that let's see what what this relation takes to could be six months could be year or maybe um developer change their perspective and as well you got to keep in mind that um the market

evolves right and we were discussing earlier before we started um the call um and backstage um hyper casual or um casual developers and so on um evaluations were happening six months a year ago right now and in the following months you won't see this happening because Market the microeconomic conditions are changing the crisis in the we goinging a recession it's going to get worse so guess what's going to happen next people companies going to be more tit of money they're going to have more requests or they won't be willing to give away as much cash as they were willing to or developers won't be able to get as much as they used to so that changes as well the Dynamics and the conversation that we had to the point where previous conversation that we have with developers which were like hey I'm not interested because X Y and Z this X Y and Z change completely because now the market the mro economics change a lot and and as such they maybe require more help or assist in a specific points that six months or year ago that are

like I the need P because X Y and Z yeah and just uh the one question I wanted to ask be before Felix uh asked his one it's uh you mentioned pltv so you are what kind of data are you using to model the the LTV is it the the data from the UA test or the previous uh campaigns that the developer R it's um with a with a short yes the short test that we're going to do um it's going to be extremely hard for us to be able to we can we can build a curve as course but a curve based as you probably know M on 10K 15K okay it's in a Sal lunch and it's a technical lunch that that is what that is what I have but I rather rely on what I've seen the developer has done in the last year two years or so however you could argue as well that the developer maybe doesn't know best on what they are doing on UA or maybe users are acquiring our crap so it's one of

those that you kind of okay we we want ultimately we want to be 8 in a 85% confident 85% confident I think it's a pretty high standard that we are going to be able to um grow this game but there is all I mean again as I was mentioning earlier it's really really hard to be able to be so good at it to be able to pinpoint exactly yeah how much more you're going to grow or how the um projection is going to workout obviously the more data you're baking the better your predictive LTV is going to become um it obviously it has happened many instances where our initial data was showcasing an an LTV curve and then we start running or we start trying to scale the game 45k 50k 60k a month you way span it's like this is not growing as we thought or the or the other way around like like okay this game whatever and then and then you have

those what's called what we call in English the a dark course type of thing like I didn't expect this one will do good at all like okay this is a Remnant not remant like okay let's get I'm on board but we doing them a favor like next this our the best one in the quarter so it's it's actually quite interesting to see from um it's quite EIC as you can expect because we see many games and we discuss with many developers and so on but it's really interesting to see um or to pin not to pinpoint but kind of like your God it's it's nice to be able to work out your gut feeling and go as well beyond what data tells you you play the game you talk to the developer you see what they're working on you do some UA and then more often than not Beyond 85% confidence level I can I enri can kind of somewhat state if the game is going to work out or not the problem is that my gut feeling is not databased it's gut right so then working that out interally it's like okay but how okay

but now we we got to put it on on the paper on EX spreadsheet how this and how this represents or what this um got feeling that you were staing it's not by by the way it's not only me we have a really big and capable team um so I'm more overseeing and trying to elevate and lead the team rather than doing it myself so I don't want to take any how big is your team about 30 30ish it depends on how you because um some of the for instance Insight team or the customer success manager team I'm not managing directly but I'm um elbow to Elbow um so ultimately it it falls into the the same growth um structure um which goes down from the chief growth officer um to me but then obviously obviously from a from a manager perspective I honestly believe that Beyond five to eight people you directly managing those it's it's beyond a a proper managing

capabilities now there might be some managers who are outstanding and say I'm managing 20 people and doing great well good good for you I don't I'm Al I mean my agenda is I have eight 10 hours a day I want to have at least one on one we weekly bi-weekly yeah I have as well teams under under that those lead which I'm going to have discussions every now and then too I don't know how these other managers are able to manage these massive thingsam but I rely heavily on my leads lead lead and so on to be able to um you know manage their teams effectively um so when you are able to elevate your leads and their teams and that's I think what ultimately the best way or I think in my opinion that's the that's the manager job right rather than trying to micromanage and just talking because it's humanly impossible yeah some people might think otherwise but I I honestly I can't think at least with my manage money Style I cannot make that happen yeah exactly it's about the

management style I mean I there were there were times when uh when we had uh previous company not dropping any names like 25 people in marketing team which I managed well it wasn't my drop on paper but eventually I I managed those people and it was like really super hard so um you can do it but you don't you can't do anything else you just manage people and just trying to take care of them so they can can work for precisely but you don't Pro I don't think you I think honestly that it's that you don't provide the quality time that that leite or human being deserves and it's just like um if you're talking talking talking talking you can as you said you can't just take action on those topics yeah and it's just ultimately you become like hey and in fact I already feel that way I it is part of my job right but I many of my calendar hours going to be talking to another human being just to you know

work out you know has a lag and so on but you can't change okay it's in a webcam it's not going to be person to person but you can't change um that human interaction as far as far as far as I can tell or I can do so I'm keeping that in mind five eight people tops beyond that it's GNA it's going to get complicated or you start you you need to start cutting down on on on some of that quality time that I call it and how how do you structure the the theme in terms of uh let's say UA so is it based on the games or based on the channels GEOS platforms like how does that look like that's a that's a really good question um so um right now um the uat is a structure um we so each one manages a set of games and then we have a call it a representative that is um representing the company towards a specific Network so we're going to have a my weekly or weekly call with Facebook a call with Tik Tok which by the way we do have several contacts so next time you need a

contact let me know I can put you in touch with of course we'll do yeah um with Google as well unity and so on so obviously we want all of us being on those calls but we have uh one of our UA um team members going to be the person in charge of like managing those relationships and then kind of like hey new report comes in or they came I don't know this new value optimization campaign so let's give it a go or they give Uso credit to test this type of campaign guys who's interested and then so we have this representative internally and then what I'm conscious about you is that um you on on the paper you would want um Thea to become a UA person to become a specialist on a specific game or genre so this person only manages Forex or this manages and match three puzzle why because they get that gut feeling okay what best creatives work because I I'm managing other games and I know that this works better or these channels do best Etc the problem follow me that as as human

beings you tend to get bored or I'm conscious that um you will get bored of doing more and more of a thing and ultimately UA tends to be quite a repetitive setting up campaigns I'm optimizing campaigns I'm talking to the creative team I'm talking to the network and it's just more of the same so I I'm I'm as well aware that you want to provide every now and then a change of the flavor of the games that you manage um so on ideal B UA manager will always manage the same type of games or be embedded within a specific game title but I try or we do an active um effort to try to swap UA managers um every now and then discuss with them as well hey for the last three um three games you managed you watch a story based game how about now you try a puzzle game because as well it gives them um a different perspective um and they can perhaps bring some of the insights or the expertise that they took from a different um game genre and apply to um

a different game title or the generators I guess yeah how many games one U manager can handle in your company because I I I have this like um uh thinking of uh of Junior versus Senior People in in terms of the UA and I believe like one UA senior UA person can handle I would say around like one or 1.5 million a month budget but it very much depends on the game creative process and everything but it's like how do you think about these things because of course like nobody wants to be burned out after a certain amount of time working super hard it depends as you said on the on the size of the game and how much we're spending and um on the status of the game is a is a lunch um or it's a it's on a harvest mode so we are actually dwelling down on our span on average it's going to be between three to five games M on average that's kind but again

that really depends depends on the spend yeah of course yeah yeah yeah I don't know we were just release I'm I'm actually going to use a a recent example M&M we released M&M's Adventure uh I think it was two or three months ago we're talking about um Hefty budgets like million plus and the likes okay I want it's an important title for us I want you to actually I know you have other games that you're managing but your eyes and hands should be on this title because this this this is what's being relased right now high priority yeah correct but then um then others and hey I'm just managing or I'm just going to make this up perhaps I'm managing five titles that are Life publishing three of them or two of them are not I know that I know we know that they are struggling to grow so it's like that we're going to start discussing on the separate ways on you know hey these are working out let's cut it up and then you have two other games one of them is doing okay and the other one is doing great yeah ultimately you want that you a

person to focus on the game that's sing r that being said and as you well said it depends as well on the level of sority in a real world you would have a UA UA but this can be applied to any any on any other area so I'm talking about UA specifically but this can be any area um ideally you would get that person to make that call and say okay this game is working best I'm going to invest most of more most of my time on this game because I can tell that it's growing and it it it makes sense from a business perspective to do so in reality though this call is only made by people who has been in the space not a tilting point in the space for a few years okay there are some outliers people who just after one two years are making a start Med like okay this is someone who you can tell is going to go places but others are Stu like they need someone that comes from the top and States no you don't not do this because but it's you know again it seems one of those that it's like it's obvious but once you are managing so

many people in so many games you realize that what you might think that it's an obvious take or you know it's a du thing not everyone is going to see that so you will try or at least we do or I do the active effort to try to get people to understand it to see okay do you understand why we're making this decision but not everyone and is making that click or it takes them longer than I would like to for them to make that click yeah in brain and just make that an active decision yeah it's not easy it's not easy and I always say that you need to get these experience not by like number of years you in the industry or maybe it's it's connected to the years of in the industry but also like level of spend so if you spend I don't know 20,000 in in your career and even if you are in the space for eight years you don't you won't have those exact experience someone who spent five million for example and this is like when the click comes comes in but it's

it's it's good to see as well um some of um I don't know maybe I had higher higher stand I had higher standards or myself when I was younger I'm getting old getting old we are we just getting white hair and so on but I recall back then eight years 10 years ago I I was making I do recall myself making an active effort okay what's the best for the company or why I'm doing this or which I maybe I was an account manager back then okay which account deserves more of my time and to me it was you know it makes total sense I'm going to invest more of my time on this account because it's bringing 70% of the revenue of the company or on my accounts yeah this when again it's an obvious thing but I I I'm I'm think after no now become a manager managing more people and so on that what I thought was a given it's not so much so it could as you said it could well be that it takes a bit um for that person to get acquainted without a med click and others come naturally and others it's just simply they will not get there this

like I call them they um they have the blinders like a donkey and just like see they do don't get me wrong they work and they work hard yeah exactly we we also need these uh these type of people that's and that's completely normal but like you said there is some certain like business perspective that is in some people and in others it takes some time to actually understand like how how it's working because I know we had lot of um different colleagues uh back in the back in the days who didn't understand like the the business like the the gaming industry is business it's all about business and making money and everybody was like oh well but we are doing these games for the players and they love it like yeah of course but how do you pay bills like you can't pay bills with just you know players like your game it's not not going to happen and we need I always yes I always say we're not running we're not running a we're not running a charity we're running a business not to think point I always say

that indry of course it is so of course of course we do it for a love of games but you don't yes but don't forget who's paying your bills is not going to be um you know it's not going to be oh because this game is so great or we got so many good reviews no exactly Cas is going to pay you your salaries and that's all that this should be based on um on those yes you can argue some projects you could um Do It For the Love of games or maybe you can have a some components that could be I don't know and we did it with some games like Terra Genesis where we plan a tree or we have a you know some sort of like um takes that l or not wouldn't be as profitable as they could be but but ultimately there is an active rational or a you know a thought be behind that action whereas um you know that's been done in purpose the problem is when that's not done in purpose and just I'm just doing that's fine the easiest way I think um I think just to wrap it up with this question is that um

you want to identify those people under your team that are not clicking or are making that you know active decision and try to assist them or Elevate them to teach them okay or do you understand what we're doing this or do you get it and then just keep itating on this until hopefully they it clicks in their head and then we can you know you you actually get someone else on the at the level that you hope and that your is at and also uh I found out the tiling point is hiring UA managers so everybody out there just uh pleas please if you have gaming if you have gaming experience um and you would like to work with have you introduced me with the most important super important super important DP with a nice nice yeah there you go uh please Fe me on LinkedIn or Twitter andry Pedro I'm happy to put you in touch I do not get any commission or raell because I'm

be so but I'm I'm eagerly looking for um UA people to join us and extremely hard to get talented people in the space yeah if you yeah if uh if you still can't find anyone until next month yeah just hire me as a consultant it's gonna be hey there you go plugging there of course because I'm I'm getting these LinkedIn messages like hey so there's there's a company in Barcelona they're hiring um it's like yeah okay you but what were you what you talking about you didn't you didn't apply to any jobs you got no I didn't no I didn't but recruiters are actively you know trying to snatch me to different companies I I actually I actively told them to to ping you every every week or very good yeah you're doing very good job nice okay so uh I think how about but how how about creatives like how how do you approach creatives you you mentioned like um the UA teams talking

to the creative leads and like how does that you know process look like and how often do you like produce a new creatives because I I imagine uh with 40 games it can be can be pretty interesting uh operations lot of creatives is it's a lot of creatives and in fact um we we have been it's funny you mention this because we have been today last week last month we're doing an active effort to um break down on how much we have invested by hours by game and for this year last previous years and so on and try to not try working out where we are May might be investing too much resources and why the games we supposedly were investing resources but we not as as such um how we normally do it obviously we will have the insights so we got a new game okay we got a a new game comes on board we're going to have the we going to do an boarding um form

where the developer is providing several insights from SDK down to the audience creatives that they use what they're seeing obviously we have access to their accounts so we seen as well what creatives are working or what they tried in the past so we we're going to start up with that then we're going to refer as well to what we have managed or what we call it manage um inside um internally um from the same general type of game and then see what has what is working in the space right now or what has been or what worked in the past and then try to replicate that with a new um title that is coming on board um how we do this take we're using um it's called milanote which is like a kind of a TR like a board where you can set different folders and so on so that's what our Crea team uses but as well as our um our organic and UA and so we are inputting all those insights there and then on uh we have as well of our brainstorm sessions where um the creative team is pitching ideas and then we discuss this

with the UA team organ team has to say as well on how ions screens and so on maybe they want a split screen maybe they they seen competitors trying this different icon we should give it a go to this and then we keep um we hopefully we open these tickets um through jira and then after um two weeks a month we get this creative set what we are actively working on I mean this on the paper sounds great um and Le I wouldn't for anyone being surprised by by this process this pretty straightforward what we're trying to actively um do um is being more um fast with the aeration and try to piggy back on world events um one that um brings Bell is um that I was discussing with a developer not long ago in one one event in Barcelona um we were working with a football for/ soccer game so soccer for Americans football for Europeans um where they were telling us which makes sense is that hey when you know that I don't know Barcelona Real

Madrid and is having a game they will make specific creatives for that game um or you know I don't know back then Cristiano Ronaldo or I Messi which is a longer version but Messi got a a penalty kick which wasn't really a fault because the bar didn't call it up whatever so we're gonna make H or produce a creative based on that specific event which the the user the the prospect um audience which is obviously a football like oh that's so relevant like again I need to play this game because obviously that's the mindset they know about this so that's one example but in order to do that okay on a smaller teams when I have um the UA I am the UA manager the organic um or the ESL manager and I have someone who is creative that does everything in house then it's really easy for me to go to that person like okay let's get this creative done because that was about happen yesterday when you're managing as you said 40 games big title um big company many person soone it's harder um to be able to um be so fast on iterating

so that's something that we are actively working on on being able to um call it World Trends um so some of these World Trends might be um relevant to some games but you can always find something that is that kind of like makes the the uh the target audience like oh this is something that it's you know I can relate to and it's something that I seen on the news or I know that there something going on and that's always that tends to do the click and get that or yeah I've seen uh and we used this uh way before um when The Witcher series uh was launched on Netflix so we used the the appearance of of Witcher And the tried to do it in one one of our games and immediately the the creative exploded so apparently this has very nice effect on the on the efficiency on the creative but so how does this creative approach or any UA approach roach changes from the the web 3 or to

web 2 to the web 3 because I I've read somewhere that the web 3 is a strategy that now is your in one of your core strategic pillars so can you elaborate a little bit more about like how the tilting point is going to to this like blockchain space how you can build as as a as a as a as sure as a crypto bro myself I'm extremely excited to see that all right yay um I'm extremely excited to see that we are making active efforts to move towards webt so we recently I think a couple of months ago or a month ago and we released that we going to a partnership with polygon madic um where our aim is to start working um or moving some titles from Web Two to web three um using a leveraging Matic which is a for those who don't know it's a ler 2 on ethereum which has a um F transactions and L on low um gas fees um to the question about

um creatives what I know what I know from a crypto from someone who is nft crypto Enthusiast and I have been um participating in several projects from a personal level um Community is everything so it's yes there is a there is a strong um of course there is a creative component where you can try to you know maybe um go on specific sites about nft means and so on and try maybe to work on a CPC CPN bases and get some banners there but it it's going to I know that a lot of the work that I know and I we're working on is to build on our build communities behind those projects yeah the beauty and from moving from Web Two to web 3 is that um what I see or what the industry sees on web 3 is that in most instances first they worry about the nft m and then they worry about making the game fun or in fact they don't even have a game working at all they no core there is no game Loop there is no meta there is nothing it's just

like some white paper they just copy paste some ideas put it together and we'll work it out in six months the beauty with web two is that we know that this game is fun or there is a certain retention metrics or retention metric is going to be ultimately what it is how good the game is it is because ultimately you know the more the play Rec base it is playing it tells you the game is fun so when you already have that on a web to if we are able to um spin that out with a web three element and that I think because the game is fun already so if we can make the make fun on web three I think we are um onto something so I'm excited to say that we are actively working with already a few titles some of them are going to come out really soon um it's a lot of work um we are as well learning by doing don't get me wrong and whoever says that they know about um blockchain to economics um or n drops yeah SC we are scaling blockchain games oh yeah sure of course yeah and this is

not claiming podcast we call. so uh it is BS so whoever I mean oh HRI but I managed to get a this yeah okay fine but um that's um it's it's such a it's such a niche um or such a an expertise that is still being built and learn us at super early anyway it's super early it is super early and in crypto one day is one week one week is one month one month yeah that's how it works so um with you keep that in mind when I'm hearing all these people or I see these statements more it's more on the pr thing and I try to be as transparent as possible with things um most my personal and business life what I see this type of and I'm just really worried of these and I just they don't know what you're talking about it's just that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors and to me it's it's funny because I've been in the mobile space for over for a decade now it has that feeling of what was the

mobile I was I call it the W West back then where it was like running CPI campaigns without without any nap events whatsoever when mmps were starting it was all fraud and it was like in we were seeing what campaign were traffic yeah good old days good old days which they're coming back anyway so it it reminds me of of that now with crypto which is exciting because it's like got closing the life cycle the loop and he's like oh it sounds familiar oh I seen this happening in I like hold on that's exactly what's happening again 10 years ago um so I think there is this new wave as well of obviously new people coming to the spins people are growing up and they start getting jobs and getting interested and and the next big thing I think it is um web three not only nfts but web three in general so again as I I said earlier on on this um I'm really excited to see that tilling point we're moving towards M that and trying to be uh trying trying to be a leader on that days because that's probably the next Frontier that we're going to cross them how do any of sorry

do any of these games have a mobile client coming up a mobile mobile client yeah if any of these have a mobile client on their road but it's uh navigate navigating that with Google and apple it's um it's interesting and I can tell you that Apple has um a list onone where they're actively reviewing projects um to see um or to dictate and if they're good to go and what can do what can be and what cannot be done I've seen um a few games that um are cleverly um um taking that wave of like Idol like Idol games where you're like you're managing a a mining um a mining operation so you're mining Bitcoin um xrp and so on and then they're they're providing a mean for the player to actually get some satosi or BTC um out from the game to their

existing wallet so this um I think it's a really clever approach and just that's the tip of the iceberg but to your question yes we are actively working on getting um this bullets on mobile that what I'm seeing what I can tell you that I'm foreseeing is going to be the main issue is that you want to evangelize not the Crypt Bros or the user who the person like me who's used to to use metamask and has been rting with and pay too much in in gas in the last two years I get it and I know what I need to do I know what's more M and so on but that person who either doesn't understand they just want to play the game who don't care less about creating a wallet or they don't trust or they hear oh crypto it's all a Ponzi scheme and I don't want to get involved in this well to start with that that User it's likely not to be your user based they would bother to play your game but those who have like oh interesting how do I do that that how I do that um taking down all the process cting the wallet setting up the assets transferring the assets from your hard wallet well from your

onchain to the in game and and so on that's way easier said than done so there's going to be a lot of work not only by tiling by tilting point but overall for many of um these companies working on actively on web 3 or web2 to web 3 to evangelize and you know um get um the users um in a real world you would get the user to use blockchain or web 3 without them know that they're doing so yeah still but how tilting help the companies reach the broader audiences like you know like Community is fine and building Community is the the core of the the whole blockchain space but then if you want to scale the game like what would be the US strategy there because you can't just rely only on community I mean that's of course of course so the of course so then the community you want you know so you have let's call okay let's say you have a um a web two game that is already web 3 you have the wallet integrated ideal wall you know the game is integrated with a wallet the wallet is

working fine you have the nft drop you have a sold out you have 10,000 minut so let's say we're starting with a with a with a good um background okay I would still is a web it's web to it's still it's a mobile game right so I will leverage um what I'm do what I'm actively doing on on my normal normal my mobile games that's what I always like normal games like yeah well normal free to play mobile games yeah yeah exactly but then but then this interesting because um if you have the mobile game and um and you don't and you don't or the don't need homework the next thing should be coming on the road map is having U maybe it's going to be a web JV or maybe it's going to be the unity client who's able to run on your um on your browser um that opens a new door to many many users like myself I am I'm one of those I'm not going to use my phone for anything crypto related yes I'm going to track my portfolio and maybe check my nsts on openc which is crap by the way on mobile but my day today it's

going to be done through desktop so if the game okay it's really cool that you have your game on mobile and you going the wallet but I enry I want to um interact and play your game on my browser or at least on my mobile browser but I know that's as well on a personal level I don't trust my mobile phone for this type of interactions so ideally you will have that developer developing that side so you're opening at the we'll call it the desktop um traffic as well and that allows you to start um doing um more of a growth hacking or growth hack approaches it could be um building up okay community community community but maybe it's on Twitter maybe you're sharing in people on Twitter and you being more aggressive on um getting them necessar through the DMS and maybe start promoting more aggressively about your game um or maybe you're going through um other this not your Discord Channel server you're going to through other discour servers which is the talk about games or talk about next big things

being done and you are pretending to be one of their users and you like inv inviting people to to your Discord yeah correct so it's it's it's a bit of a Mory Waters But ultimately if you look and it's funny it's somewhat related I was looking into it yesterday in fact um I I tweeted I tweeted about it yesterday the the famous B um ape Yad clap which is the the monkeys well for those who that know it's one of the um most well known um beyond the um the punks um nfts um they started it was back in April last year and I'm I'm some of these servers and I I saw the founder his name is Gordon Shilling um the AP Club to everyone hey me that is happening hey guys join us and it's funny because you can tell people were joking about it back then and after the fact year later and people are like this guy came on board and he was providing generational wealth to many of us andone ignored him but it's one of those that

my tweet was what he was doing back then a year ago wouldn't apply right now because if you were to do this right now you will probably likely be banned or k out from the sherber or you would be like dude stop chilling your shitty project I already know you know I already seen 10,000 like years so it's a lot of it's It's Mory Wars and why you seen that work in the past I said earlier um one one said one month is one year in crypto go year is going to Beed so what worked a year ago isn't going to work so we've now Gordon I can't his last name sorry you now I recall his um tag name if Gordon now wants to do this to the servers that I'm referring to that's that will be unlikely to work out nor for them to be able to get what they at right now but well time is well luck yeah with this web three in mind so is this going to be like um a CornerStore of your like future activities or like what would be the the long-term goal of the the whole tilting

Point are you moving like full towards the the crypto or like how how does that look like there is still so obviously um obviously tilting pwn is we want to be at the Forefront of what's being done in gaming or mobile gaming better said um although this is becoming this is these are becoming blur lines because then when we talk about Mobile gaming we're discussing about okay but now we're going to do port to the Windows store and now we're going to have the game on Amazon and now we're going to try X so this goes beyond what your mobile device is just because technology is evolving as well and as such um in not such a distant feature and now it's when it's about 5:00 a.m. 5:30 a.m. and and starts ranting um with the alcohol right now only having coffee but um in in in in such distant feature you won't make a difference between your mobile device and your I mean I was telling you earlier I'm not using my mobile device because I don't trust this I only use my

browser in not such a decent feature my desktop and my um mobile device are going to be the same I'm not going to it's sure it's it's different size in the screen and so on but it's I'm going to have the same capabilities and the same type of interaction that I'm having with my existing laptop um so with that in mind I think that um the take the take is not for us to forget about um web tube or as said quote unquote normal gam and there know we're going to do crypto now that's not the point by no means but um it's good as a company that we are actively working on that because we believe and that's the next Frontier um that gaming is going to encounter now there are many people in the space gaming space who are questioning the need for blockchain um or um the P the Ponzi schemes and so on but I think and I think I was discussing with that with Felix a couple of weeks ago um it's similar to what um freet toplay was back

then when mobile um games were not free so you had to pay $4 $3 and so on and then the idea and came about hey how about if we release a game for free and we monetize it um with in purchases most companies back then hands on their head oh my God what are you talking about this is impossible this is nonsense this isn't going to go anywhere well few years later yeah it did so um I'm not saying that I it's hard for me to State this is going to happen 100% with web 3 but when I talk to when I see that most of my clever friends some of them are developers are moving towards blockchain and I I see they learning solidity or they start doing um some you know working on projects that are crypto related I like most of my clever friends or providers people that I know in the space are actively moving towards um that well it's not about the py schemes or the making money sure it's an easy way to make money

right now because you're writing the next wave but that clearly states that there is something happening there and you don't want to ignore it um so I'm tilting point on that regard the project we have is we are realizing this is happening we are aware of it and as such we want to be one of the first ones um that actually is not only saying saying that we know what we do but actually we are learning from doing and actually we're doing and we're successfully doing so um so again I said earlier it's hard to find someone with that expertise because it's so early so the time to build that expertise and it's now and that's what p is doing um currently nice okay so that would be the kind of like longterm call of the company just to be on all fronts I guess but is we are there are many I cannot disc we are actually working on many sexy sexy things I would say but it's just it's under work so I don't any titles that are coming up like any web3 titles that are coming up not not

um let's call it um web 3 um if you look into web three entities and what's happening and decentralized Etc I'm not going to say more words so we're we're looking into we're activ looking into how we can spin that with tilting Point um so there are really interesting conversations that we having internally which just that we we are just not we are actively working out this week last week last last month last quarter on how this going to look like and what it's tilting Point role in the space but things like our partnership with and polygon madic kind of states that we are actually really serious about it nice nice and I think with that in mind um I would like to thank you enri for coming to to be here and to to speak about building Point multiple things uh from the UA creatives web free and uh I would like to thank thank you our listeners to be with us until now thank you very much

hit the Subscribe button and uh yeah until next time thank you very much right byebye y thank you [Music]