Tripledot Studios' Akin Babayigit On Understanding The Business Behind Great Games

[Music] hello world welcome back to the Pocket Gamer podcast it's with your hosts myself Brian Bago and the comfortably homebound Peggy anels hello Peggy it's lovely to see you back at your desk I love my desk now Brian I was just thinking that on the weekend I was like oh I love it deep work catching up on things finding amazing guests and planning out what I'm going to do next with our guest by the way you know it's like this thing where I can actually get into my work so yes yes that's the best way to describe me now melow would be another way to put it it's nice to see you it seems like such a long time since we've been you know getting through the podcast seeing each other every other day or every few days so I'm I'm delighted welcome back and it's great to be here and thanks thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in we have another fabulous show for you this this

episode Peggy who did you get lined up who have you found and how awesome is it going to be it's super awesome for me personally also a highlight but I have to say I thought I'd tie it back in with what we're doing so you know we are getting ready for our big headline shows we've got Dubai right around the corner and I thought okay we've got big headline shows let's match that with a big headline guest because I'm excited to welcome Aken babit he is co-founder and president of trip Tri do Studios and that's when we've been hearing a lot about Brian we have haven't we just Peggy it's like in a in a period where it just seems like bad news misery and awful things going on across the games world it's always nice to sort of find a company find people who are doing incredible things and doing so well so um welcome aen it's lovely to have you here you guys are way too kind and thank you so much for having me I'm delighted to be on everyone's more than a title right and maybe I'll do it with that because I was so amazed with that as

well because yes we're talking about the business of games the gaming industry but we're also talking to people and individuals and let's start there maybe aen because you have quite an interesting backstory yes you are at the helm of a great gaming studio and we will get to that in a moment but a little bit of an interesting backstory as well and I have to say humorous yeah my uh uh background is I guess atypical and a little bit different I'm from from Turkey originally but I moved to the United States when I was 16 years old by myself as an exchange student and I somehow managed to not be kicked out from the United States for the next 16 years um I did my high school there I went to University I um met my current wife and I lived in the US for about 16 years I'm a recovering Management Consultant I uh worked at McKenzie for two years absolutely hated it and then I

um did Business School uh for two years and right after business school I got into uh the world of technology so uh you know I studied engineering um and I'm you know quite technical as a person so I really felt that that was kind of my calling um and in the last um you know 12 years or so I've been in the world of gaming and the thing I always tell my friends is I'm not a gamer in the very stereotypical sense I don't you know I don't have a console at home I don't play um you know uh DND D with my friends um Etc but I am a very hardcore gamer in the true sense of the world uh if what we mean by gamer is someone who enjoys casual games and what really attracted me to the space in the early days was how unique the type of people are in the gaming space B um I don't

think there's any other industry that brings together people who are so creative but at the same time so analytical um I don't think you could find that mix in any other Spa in any other sector so I fell in love with the people in gaming first and then I fell in love with the business of gaming second so uh I remember uh in around 2009 when I was in the Bay Area uh there's a company called zing that had this game called Farmville and that was my first aha moment understanding the true potential of gaming and what it could do in terms of reaching new audiences um I read somewhere that there was more tractors sold on Farm whe in a single day than there's been ever tractor sold up until that point in the real world now it kind of seems like a given but back then it was kind of super mind-blowing for me um so I started getting more involved and I worked at Peak games out of Istanbul uh

for a few months uh and I stayed as an advisor uh to uh to the company but that was really a very unique success story both in Mobile gaming but also in Turkey as well um after Peak games I went over to Facebook I was there for close to five years uh initially looking after the partnership of Facebook with a lot of key gaming uh companies um in Europe and then I was actually part of the team that started uh the Audience Network uh and then I led the sales team for that uh in Europe um and then after that I went over to Activision Blizzard King where I was there for about a year uh and then we started triple dot with my co-founder leor and my other co-founder Al that's kind of what I do for the day job and we also by the way started another company called Luna Labs most people don't realize that we were the founders of Luna Labs as well

uh then we sold it to iron Source uh in 2021 um and in addition to that I also um try to invest in super exciting Founders and companies uh around the world like dream games spike games bigger games as well as many others um so um that's that's kind of me also I have two young kids a 13-year-old girl and a 5-year-old boy and they spend they take off you know any of my remaining time I won't believe her the point but what I found was really cool is you've got not just are you a a great you know gaming studio an executive and we'll get to like what you really do in games but uh little humor that keeps you keeps you real what's this the standup comedian part I it's funny I did first standup comedy in the US when I was an exchange student and that was on television in Michigan and some other uh Midwest Western States uh but actually during

covid times um when you know we were really kind of scared in the early stages of covid and I used that as a kind of challenge to me I made a promise saying you know I'm gonna try to learn a new skill every year so every new year I pick a skill and I go down super deep and I try to get a tutor and you know so first year it was learning to play a musical instrument second year it was learning to play chess third year is actually when I did um standup comedy courses um and uh basically as a result of that I performed on stage in London in about 10 venues more or less if you if you're in London and if you are lucky or unlucky depending on you know uh what you think uh you might you might run into me one of these days that's that's wonderful um so can can we drill down into into a couple of those um Studios uh that that you've mentioned because

you've mentioned triple Dot and you've mentioned dream gam spike games do you have any insight into what made them so interesting what H really stood out for you when you decided to invest in them triple dot was um you know a uh company that was started out of a need uh for um you know wanting to really focus on the business and the analytics side of gaming so initially when we started we said um you know we are not the most creative people in terms of coming up with the next gaming mechanic or something like that we are really good operators we understand datadriven product management we understand digital marketing we understand user user acquisition we understand monetization um and we felt that there was a need for um a company like that to really focus on um on on those aspects of gaming I think a lot of gaming

studios are run by people who are really in love with the craft of gaming and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that I mean that's what makes gaming such an exciting place to be but we felt that there was an opening where we would really focus on the execution risk of starting a new company so anytime you start a new company I think you have two type of risks you have a market risk where you don't know if the market is going to be buying the product that you develop um because often times people when they start a new company they start with a new product and they have to find product Market fit um and there's the execution risk so even if the product or the idea that you have seems to have product Market fit then you have to execute on that so we started by you know we started in areas where we knew there was a market you know our first game was a solitire game and everybody thought we were absolutely crazy for

starting with solitier because there were thousands of free soliter apps before us um especially because of course Lor's background my co-founder's background was in Social Casino before people had assumed that we would do another social casino game or people knew that I was a king so they knew they thought I would we would do a match three puzzle game when we started with an ad-based fund funded soliter game people were absolutely shocked and the reason we started there was we felt we know there's a huge market for solit therefore if we execute uh better than some of the other players in the market we would win uh we would win market share and we would um you know be able to make money and kind of stand on our two feet um so we were able to do that we managed to U scale soliter um quite rapidly um and then we had a few titles that we didn't really

didn't get you know manage to scale to their full capacity um and then we had another title which took us quite a while to perfect which was woku uh woku became our biggest game uh and then we had a few other titles so in total I think we had about 12 13 titles and then we have what we call hits so we have three games that are we're operating at scale those are woku triple tile and solitire that was a that was an overnight success that took six years uh to to make but our kind of you know uh mod of operating has always been we have been very profitable from the get-go uh we raised money yes Etc but that was always for another purpose which is to do more m&a to be a buyer of other gaming companies that we can then help scale uh we were profitable from year one uh and uh and have grown very rapidly since so we won the fastest

growing company in Europe award by the financial times last year uh and we have about 400 people working in six locations uh in triple dot um and that's kind of that's that's who we are that that's absolutely amazing and and again it echoes so much of what we hear in the podcast Peggy that that there's so much more than making a game or you know focusing on originality and to go back to what you said earlier that that you're a real Casual Gamer um fills my heart with delight because this this whole notion that triaa and and the sort of the really high budget console and PC titles are the only real games I I think is just absurd you know it's so much of the innovation in games comes from the mobile market and you don't need to be a hardcore 150 hours you know um dedicated Warrior to to to be a a real gamer um so I'm I'm delighted and and that makes

that makes a huge amount of sense and congratulations um on on everything you're doing with triple dot I just want to Echo something you said which is very true and when you look at the gaming Market everyone knows intuitively and they've heard that it's bigger than you know movies and Game movies and music combined so people know that what people don't know is you have a market that's really large no one really knows the true size of it right let's call it 300300 billion more than half of which is mobile right but when you look around you don't have a no-brainer uh poster child for mobile gaming you have bunch of poster child for the smaller half right you have Activision take two uh EA and others you don't really have a poster child for the mobile segment and I think it's just a sign that there will come a day when

that poster child will be there I have no doubt um and you know you have lots of incredible companies supercell you know play rcks Dream games um others and other companies that in pla who are absolutely amazing operators mini clip and others but those are not known in the same vein as the Activision and years of the same world and I think that will change at some point and I think that's the opportunity um so you know I'm really excited to be operating in that uh in that uh in that space part of it is clearly your DNA you know you understand the business side of gaming that's really important here so you love games but you also understand the business side and you also think about the marketability and profitability of a new game share your thinking a little bit when you're assessing that because you

know that is looking at a game and its potential and that's very different from looking at a game when you built it and love it and you know and uh and the the typical sort of gaming you know or Indie Studio you know it's going to be a hit no there are signs what are some of those signs I think us not necessarily falling in love with the games we build is part of what makes us strong um because we always look through a you know very objective and analytical and frankly um cold lens to the metrics to the numbers and those lenses adopt they change over time so um as I said we launched about 12 games 13 games and three of them are really hits so I think more instructive maybe is in games that didn't scale there was always some metrics that

were um you know ah those are pretty good metrics a that's pretty good metrics Etc but in the ones that made it there were always one or two metrics that were let's call it n star metrics they were out of this world type of metrics okay it's not always the same I don't like to advise people to look at the same metrics because those metrics change in the old days people used to look at day one retention then it became day seven then it became day seven over day one then people are looking at roas and people are looking at this it just depends on the game uh usually there are signs that you look at and we we look at you know retention we look at raws we look at all of those things but depending on the genre depending on the time in the market depending on a bunch of things uh you will you will look at other metrics but what was common among the games that made it was that there was one or two metrics that were just we

couldn't believe it could have been you know um time spent inside the app it could have been the arpu arow that we saw it could have been the number of ads people were willing to watch or whatever it is that actually made us continue to invest and I think the biggest advantage that we have so if you take two parallel universes and you take you know aen A and aen B and aen a is really in love with the games that he's making and so on it's very hard to know um objectively for a when to double down or when to Pivot that specific Direction because if I'm building something new there's really a lack of comparables in the market for me so I will just basically go down this road and I will build build build and I will kind of try to make it work whereas aen B if he's building from a you know starting point point of my thesis is

that there's a market for this game then you know he doesn't necessarily give up when he sees some metrics that don't work he you know so often times you know uh some of the games that made it like woku it took us a long time for that game to scale and the reason we didn't give up or we didn't pivot into another game was we felt looking at the data looking at the market that there was a space for this game in that market whether it be the marketing creatives whether it be the theme whether it be whatever is less of the points but we knew objectively that we could make that game work it's very interesting compared to that discussion about what are the Northstar metrics and what you're saying is basically they come and go you know it's row as it's cost per now it's LTV right LTV combined with Ras but what you are saying here that's interesting is that that's not as important as seeing two

performance metrics that are just outstanding and it's not a particular metric it's the fact that they have reached a level that has gotten your attention and therefore has you thinking again about it so there's not like a sign of Commercial Success there is do I see signs and should I continue I I really don't want to be formula because if I I come here and say oh we look at whatever day seven Ras needs to be X and day seven retention needs to be y% and you know like there's a very strong chance that will change within less than six months um and there's a very real chance that what I say is only true for a specific type of game that we are doing so I have the luxury of you know operating in the space for many years and what you see is really there's a huge difference between what works for

type game you know certain type of games and what um you know those things may not work for other type of games specifically um you know in the early days a lot of the advice that was given to game company entrepreneurs were focus on retention focus on retention and once you have retention yeah now we are seeing that retention is I mean retention is as an objective metric and as a idea it's very very important of course but it depends a lot on other things such as the UA Channel such as many other um Market factors Etc so you might have a game with insane retention but just never makes it out of the out of the market we see examples of that all the time um so it's just really understanding you know the core kind of value proposition of what's going to make that game operate at scale and it may be something that you're not you

know used to so again you know this is this is why we were saying I can't offer you anything you know any any kind of big takeaway I think you have I you think you absolutely have which is treat each of your games as as individual titles I I tell a lot of Indie developers you know your job is not just to make the next thing the your job is as Stephen King put it to kill your Kill Your Darlings it's like find the one that excites you find the one that has that North Star that that kind of hook that you can work on so from the other side what does a commercial success look like today and and has that changed significantly since you've landed here in the world of games you know Commercial Success also has um a quite a different definition depending on the Personalities in the room so the way for example you know we Define commercial success is any game that needs to be at least making $100,000 a day net revenue

and can support profitable UA profitable UA will mean different things depending on the type of game but that's our definition of what is a successful game uh for instance um other cases it might be that you know you are um twers team and I see a lot more of these nowadays by the way you are a two three person team and there are a lot of incredibly smart people who are able to um generate 4050 million in Revenue um that are super profitable 10 15 million of profits net profit um every year just between the three of them that is a very successful business but if you kind of put on the lens of Revenue growth and revenue you know world domination you know those companies are not generating a Royal match or something like that um you know so but that might be

okay because they are that's the path they have chosen um I think Royal match is clearly one of the most successful games ever in the history of mobile gaming in my opinion um that's a universally accepted measure of success but I guess my point is there are a lot more hidden measures of success depending on the personality depending on the life you know choice um that of the founders um the reason we started triple Dot and the reason we define success as we do is we really feel that we have an opportunity to create a generational company and uh that that's kind of our belief so our definition of success is that I don't want to say it depends to all your questions but this one really depends because if you're Three Brothers in you know if you're three people in France that are generating those kind of numbers I think you are very successful by any measure me um so you know again

it just depends on on the personality success at a supercell level is a completely different um you know level of uh demand and monetization and Longevity than it is for you know the Indie Studio out there who want to be sustainable and you know potentially scalable um so I think again a point very well made and just to tie this into the earlier kpi discussion I think the commonality that we see in those games that have been commercially successful is longevity and whether you define it as day 90 retention day 360 retention or whatever it is um or in the case of those games where I said ear you know lower uh day one retention I think the the the the shape of the curve is something that um really gives away usually successful games so uh if you have uh I guess the value should be in

the tail for really really successful games and that's one of the reasons that it's gaming sector is really misunderstood because it's hard to intuitively understand the value of the tail meaning the value of those people who are going to come in to your game every day for many many many many years um and you know become repeat customers of your game um that's really hard to understand from an intu perspective so um you know any kind of measure of success in my mind like you know we talked about hyper casual hyper casual was a great way for a while to generate cash it was probably not a great way to generate a lot of value but that might be okay depending on what is your goal if your goal was to create cash and I know a lot of Studios um in turkey and other places that use the hypercasual train as a funding hat almost they generated a lot of money and

uh they are now using that money to deploy other really high quality gaming experiences with much more longevity much more tail much more long-term retention so it really all depends and this is part of what makes gaming so exciting is because these are very analytical constructs analytical Frameworks you can make decisions with great framework because we've always heard about you know like the long tail now we're looking at like a A Tail of value and maybe not all of it only through maintaining the game through live Ops whatever but um just maybe through mechanics as well is what I'm hearing you know you don't have to maybe actively maintain it maybe it is just a matter of cultivating it you know to be honest I don't know how to do it without you know you know active uh management of the game so we do a lot of live Ops we were probably one of the first

pioneers of bringing really sophisticated liveops into inap ad monetized games um but your point is also very valid because you know the reason gaming is so beautiful every time you make a statement like I just made you know you have to have live Ops to you know sale value there's a very legitimate counter example so it's very hard to um create religions around certain things so you know now that I've said that I'm thinking well there's this company that did that there's that company that so there are a lot of examples of you're rights actually um people that have created experiences and those experiences are they have long lasting T tail value in and of themselves and probably if somebody that wanted to do more live Ops took those experiences over they could generate even more value but you know even without that those experiences last for a very long time so so yeah it's very interesting would

like to talk however about not just the games themselves but the conditions the market conditions talking about market conditions you know yours in Turkey is outstanding for a variety of reasons but maybe you can distill it down to the unique opportunity maybe one unique opportunity one unique challenge that turkey represents I'll start with a disclaimer uh you know I left turkey when I was 16 and I go back a couple times every year but other than the companies that I've invested in you know I haven't lived there for a long period of time and actually observing from outside is really quite unique experience so I think it's quite I think we can now call Turkey uh one of the hubs if not the Hub of gaming uh especially Mobile gaming you know the reason why that emerged I think there's a few different reasons and it all those things combined and

they came together in a very Greek period of time and one of those was just the kind of underlying Readiness of Turkish demographic so turkey is a very large country um but it's a very young country I think going to hand wavy recall some numbers but I think it's about 80 million people and I think 70% are under the age of 35 and this could even be even more um tilted towards young people they are very well you know educated and and really there's a big amount of talent in Turkey I think any friend of mine that is not from Turkey when they interact with Turkish people um they're very surprised for a few reasons one is they're surprised at how hardworking Turkish people are and it's always wrong to generalize positively or negatively but I think there are certain things in game that actually are very true Turkish people

are quite hardworking and there's a culture that actually demands it second is um you know there's a very interesting element in the gaming space which is this requirement that you know you iterate really really fast and you see something somewhere else and you take it and you adopt it to your own you see something somewhere else and you take it you adopt to your own that actually fits very well with the culture like in you know Turkey um arguably I don't I'm not a historian but uh you could say turkey was the uh country that either invented or perfected the concept of bazaars right so like you have this really commercial savviness that you see something and you say okay that might work and you bring that on board and then you there's this level of really quick iteration that is important um in understanding um and the other thing is kind of the necessity of it is you know it's very hard to imagine

another um industry that requires very low cap like you don't really require money to get started in gaming right like we can start a gaming company in Turkey um very quickly you make your money in US Dollars which is a huge Plus for a country that is always in some sort of economic crisis um you can reach Global audiences very very quickly um so that bring that's very attractive so you put all those things together and you layer on top of it probably the most important thing which is turkey is a very darwinian Society what I mean by that is you know tur once there's an example in front of you everybody's going to attack uh attack that market so in 2011 this was e-commerce you know in in the early 2010 2011 everybody wanted to start an e-commerce company in

turkey and uh my one of my best friends uh DEET started before that actually she was probably the reason why all these people wanted to start e-commerce companies DEET dropped out of Harvard started a company called trol now trol is uh the you know is the Amazon of turkey and it's worth probably close to2 billion and there was an example what de created and everybody wanted to chase that example that same example in gaming is really Sedar and Peak games sidar and Peak games was the example that you know this is possible you can create a behemoth out of turkey and not only that but a lot of people actually pass through pass through uh the peak games school so my view of the world is you know Mobile gaming especially is so young and you have these universities

around the world not just in Turkey in turkey that was probably Peak games was the main one but in you know you have playrix you have plka you have supercell you have countless examples of these universities and people are graduating from those universities they're getting trained how to make games how to ship games how to scale games this this happened in turkey at a very unique moment and you know we we know the rest so you have young hungry talented Workforce they're not afraid to take risks and uh and yeah and it becomes um you know it becomes quite an interesting people also say initially the cost of Labor helped but right now I don't think it's it's um it's a thing I think cost of Labor is no longer uh an advantage in I think turkey reserves deserves every respect and all the Kudos we can give to it because it really has come through as a a shining St of the sort of the the next generation of games

a lot of it is really understanding that if you build a truly world-class product um you know I think it's going to become much easier for you to Market it but that's building that product is only half the challenge right it's just really a matter of being able to scale that being able to um really understand Performance Marketing so I think maybe the better way to articulate what I previous to said is that Performance Marketing as a science was really appreciated by Turkish people um quite early on um and how to scale this using advertising and so on is something that was almost like a dirty word in the west right the adage in the West Was build a great product and they will come whereas turkey was you know and not just turkey there are other ecosystems that are exceptional like Israel for example at this as well but that really appreciated no it's not

enough I need to put it in front of people and that takes additional science that takes additional skills and uh you know I will really Master those skills and I think that was the kind of um you know hidden another hidden thing in in the Turkish success story what advice would you give to embrace still the science of Performance Marketing but also understand where we are right now it's going to be a modification of what we could do before where where are we and what are those Trends what are those drivers we need to be aware of really the peak moment was for me when um people said in 2014 where there's no other casual game can be made because Candy Crush Was crowding the market and there was you know no other company can compete with Candy Crush then came play rck Then Came Peak game games then came dream games and this is all within a single Subs

segment of you know casual puzzle uh space uh so that's a perfect counter example uh so I mean it's undeniable that with the idfa changes with you know Google privacy sandbox with all those things that are happening um you know Performance Marketing has its challenges but that being said right now we are in a place where there are a lot of opportunities in Performance Marketing too um so again just in terms of counter examples you know there are so many games that are scaling exceptionally well right now because of Performance Marketing and you know they're doing something right um and you know clearly uh it's it's not black magic or it's not you so if I take a step back I think the um game mobile gaming ecosystem was definitely Reliant

too much maybe on Performance Marketing and I think you could argue that it reached some unhealthy levels we had a lot of you know academic level discussions about kind of you know these creatives not representing the actual gameplay whether they should be used and so on and so forth um and then Apple the Apple decision really impacted Performance Marketing dependent Industries not just gaming but you know it was Commerce and a lot of other Industries to a large extent and right now I say that you know I firmly believe nothing underlying about the consumer desires have changed you know privacy has made distribution yes more the Privacy demands the Privacy related changes made distribution more challenging but to me if you're an experienced team that's even potentially better because because you are going to win against people that were doing it

maybe less smart than you or more Brute Force than you um and I mean what better example than the continued success of Royal match right like you build an amazing product and are they not impacted by privacy idas of course they are but they're continue to scale which means that I think the trick is finding that balance of product excellence and marketing knowhow because anything you build today is going to be copied within a couple of weeks anyway that's just what makes mobile gaming challenging but also interesting because anybody can build that and take what you've built and iterate on it Etc so the way to differentiate still lies in understanding your funnel understanding why you're building what you're building and understanding understanding really distribution um I think a lot of people

have argued IP is going to become more important a lot of people have argued that uh you know alternative stores are going to be more important you know those things might be tools uh but I really doubt there will be a silver lining because it's such a competitive red ocean industry that if something works it's going to be people are going to attack that uh and so I really think that for every time someone says oh you know idfa did XYZ to our business there's a counter example so um I I don't think anything fundamentally will change people are going to have mobile phones and people are going to play mobile games for sure so it's just matter of understanding distribution understanding product to an extent where like details are the product so you know that's that's the most important thing details are the product both within the core product you're building but also

the amount of attention you pay to details in distribution and monetization is really uh what will set you apart in against competition as well it's one of those areas where we we keep hearing from developers but everything's changing and if the one constant you have is change being agile enough to adapt to it and innovate in it and being resilient enough to cope and you know deal with any of the sort of the uh challenges that brings then it leaves the market wide open you know far being far from a a static marketplace where everything has been the same for the last decade um it's so refreshing to hear from somebody who's going yeah we know change is coming deal with it yeah and and actually that's a very good point because another thing I think that really it sounds like motherhood and apple pie but it's so true is it's all really in the quality of the people that you bring to your team and one thing we

tried to do very early on uh and this is something that everyone says they do but it's really hard to do as an operator so which is we try to have people that are really experienced domain experts so like I think we have one of the best marketing teams for example one the also best product teams and we have really experienced leaders there but underneath we try almost to hire too many experienced people we try to instead hire really smart really hungry but super young people and actually you know they are kind of educated within uh our school of thought if you will and that's everybody pays lip service to that but it's very hard to actually do because it's very easy to you know when you start a company it's very easy to say I'm going to hire this person they've done this at ex company for so many years um it's just easier and probably it

sounds less risky but what you said about adoptability and and the com the the the comfort with ambiguity is so important so critical that it's just much better for a person that is just smart hungry but doesn't have to unlearn a bunch of stuff to learn new stuff sadly folks that's all the time we have for for this episode a um I think you're right we could go on for a long long time we have barely scratched the surface so all we can do is ask if you'll accept an invitation to come back at some point in the future and talk to us again anytime of course my pleasure y so the question that everyone gets asked when they come on the show aen is what are you playing right now that is currently obsessing you and you're spending time with and secondly what's your favorite game of all time in my case it might be the same answer because as I mentioned earlier um during covid I started going down this Rabbit Hole of Chess to a point where

actually my wife had to sit me down and said we have to talk about your chess addiction um it's better now but I'm not quite over over it yet so um I play probably an hour probably more of Chess per day and um it's been it's been absolutely amazing um to you know ReDiscover a game that's been around since I guess I don't know 500 600 years um that's what I'm playing I'm also playing quite a lot of Royal match um and of course I'm playing a lot of woku and and triple TI on some of our games a great answer I knew it was going to be interesting and it absolutely was so thank you Aken allow me also to thank you aen it has been a delight it has been a joy same here thank you so much for having me an absolute delight and and again thank you and yeah we'll we'll have you back anytime and until then folks that brings us to the end

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