Panel: Can Allyship Confront Toxicity?

[Music] [Music] [Music] um so we have a 40-minute panel up next on can allyship confront toxicity first of all thank you everyone for coming um we're we're an interesting subject um and it's been very interesting to get panelists and we've lost three um as we've gone along but thank you darl and Mick for being our our um two people

who've been consistent all the way through so this is a series of of panels and workshops that we've been doing across the last 12 months um and this came around really from a post that Mick put on LinkedIn um where he discovered some of the things that happened at GDC um and he was disgusted by what had happened um and Mick posted that disgust of which I responded I'm not surprised and I'm surprised you're surprised um which then led to an article in in Pocket Gamer um no it didn't it was gamesindustry.biz it's been a long day already uh where we talked about this to follow on just quickly to say if anyone just saw that psychological safety talk I think this is psychological safety on an industry level and that's what we're talking about anyway so I'm here with Mick I am mix Ally because of what he wrote on LinkedIn that I'm here to support the changes that he wants to be

made in the industry particularly around the toxicity against women uh my name is Gina Jackson and I run a company for skillful so Mick do you want to introduce yourself and why you're here thanks Gina um well I think you've done fairly good introduction of how we we find ourselves here um so yeah um MC moras have been in the industry 25 years um and uh yeah thought i' seen a seen a few things um but clearly I've been sort of living under a rock for quite a lot of the 25 years as J pointed out to me after my ranty LinkedIn uh LinkedIn post but I think one of the most telling things for me Gina when you said once you see you won't be able to unsee um has been like really fundamental for me it's been a seismic sort of shift really um and yeah I'm just far more finely attuned to you know stories it's not

just the games industry right it's you know it's female surgeons it's female conductors in the music industry it's every industry um and you know what was it last week was that idiot Joey Barton you know I don't really follow football but you know I'm a I'm attuned to these stories now and and this edotic Behavior it's not just against women and that was something that you were quite surprised at when we talked about spiking that it it's happened to a lot of people and it's not gender specific so it really is about toxicity in general yeah yeah no absolutely um but yeah it's been it's been quite a journey um the first one was at develop um with a full full room um after to HR conference was a real um sort of eye opener for me as well and getting that take from the HR professionals who I don't think we get to hear enough from um and I thought that that whole DE after was really fascinating and I'm I'm hoping that uh

GI bus do would that could easily be a two-day event and what was really coming across there was that I don't think HR professionals get to uh you know sort of sit in a room with their peers and have those sort of honest discussions and a lot of um really fascinating takeaways came from that it's been it it really has been it's been quite a remarkable year Darren um the reason we asked you to join the panel is because you joined us at that Round Table um and you were very um outspoken outspoken is the wrong word you were very vulnerable and you brought your leadership to that table about what happens in your own organization so maybe you could just introduce yourself and tell us why you're happy to be part of the panel yeah sure my name's Darren I'm the studio director at atom Hawk uh this is my 32nd year in the industry I know don't look old enough thank you very much um but you know obviously then I've seen quite a lot from the very early days up until until now obviously being

a black male I've seen a lot from the early days up until now and I think a lot of my experiences a lot of them are shared with women um you know and the kind of things that you see and you hear it's really important for me to to be able to stand up as a black male in this industry because there's not very many um and support anything I can to stop toxicity anywhere um you know it's a really difficult thing to kind of first of all I think pin down uh and secondly to do something about because it takes a lot of courage to do something about it you know um back in the day when I first started 92 it was an all boys club you know um women very rarely there if there was a woman there it was the secretary um very few back faces or mixed you know faces at all back then um and it was called quite obvious when things were toxic it

was it was over toxic it was almost a parody of itself um so it was very easy to spot I think as Years Gone on have people have got a bit wiser it's got a bit nuanced and you know it's it's those kind of really little things that you've got to you know you were you were unaware of it because you're white male so you unaware of it um you know if if you're a woman if you're a person of color you can spot things a mile off at a millisecond you know if someone's racist if someone's sexist you'll you'll catch it you'll see it in a millisecond because you've grown up with it you know those signs and you know what you're talking about and when when you feel that there's reason why you're feeling that and those are the kind of really kind of small undetectable things by anyone else that we've got to pick up on we've got to teach everybody else how to pick up on that and what to look out for then to recog recognize it first then do

something about it and if you can't do it yourself just put your hand up and say it in the first place that's the most kind of thing um you the most courageous thing you can do is just say it in the first place you don't personally have to do anything about it but if you're sticking your hand up and you're saying it and you've seen it someone like me who's been through it and got to a position where I'm a studio director now so I can do something about it you know we need people to shout up and I think that's why I'm here to help add that voice to it and kind of give as much experience as I felt uh as I can so Tom thank you for joining us very last minute we were supposed to have Christian here from um um but maybe you can tell us why you were happy to jump in last minute to something that might be seen as a controversial subject yeah I think um I am a standing for Christian this is a topic that he is really passionate about and it's very unfortunate circumstances why he can't be here um but it's also a topic that a Super Evil we take really seriously um so I'm sort of trying to represent the

company but personally I'm happy to be here is I think you know if you all see me a white May or in my 30s having this conversation being part of this conversation hopefully that will inspire others to also just say something just open your mouth and you know talk about it because I think that's what we really need to be doing is talking about this more talking about toxicity in all of its forms and so you know I don't have the experience that you do here um in any form your 30 years that's amazing um but I'm just hoping that my presence here will INSP others to also be part of the conversation so thank you we've also unfortunately lost Sarah sorell from the mental health charity safe in our world and Tracy from um Sega hardlight but I'm delighted that they agreed um before they got ill to to come and be part of this panel um so just to ask you all what do you think we can do as individuals or companies to conf conf front toxic

behavior um is there a policy or a change in Behavior or calling out stuff or being public on panels now you've part answered the question some of you but I just wondered if anyone wanted to go more deeply into that on on what can individuals or companies do that makes it more public I think listening to the last kind of talk um it's it's making people feel safe and secure that they can do that um you know it's you I've been to many worked in many studios over the years um but atom Hawk is um you very creative studio um from you know lots of people all over all over the world lots of you know people who identify as as different to the norm whatever the norm is um so it's slightly easier for me in in that environment to kind of work with people and say you know that's not on you know we we can't be saying that you can't be thinking that you can't be doing that even though the there kind of not much

of it you know luckily where I am but I've seen lots of that so I think it's making it feel safe environment enough so someone can come and talk to you about it or just talk to someone else about it so that's that's kind of what I put in place since since the last panel listening to to what what you were saying there but do you think that's because you're there as the leader you people know that you're not going to stand for anything and therefore it doesn't become an issue so that leadership piece I think is is also part missing from this yeah I I think so very much so um you know again the authenticity side of it you know I I can speak about it and people will say well yeah I believe that has happened and I can believe that that has happened to you so bringing that to it helps and you know like like I said before I I'm very kind of I'm not shy coming forward and kind of saying that is not on this is not what we do here but you know thinking about studios I've been previously I can kind of see why that

happened and you know people don't want to upset the apple cart you don't want to be the first one to stick out and say stick your head over the parit and go you know actually I don't believe that is right um you know I think you've done a whether it was kind of Brave or kind of accidental that you know what what you did there but you know what you're doing now is kind of standing up and going actually I've seen what's happening I've seen this now and I've I feel I've got to do something about it so that's those are really important things I think anyone who watches traitors understands group think much better than they did before but no I find it remarkable that one person will say something and then to actually go against that person you've got to openly challenge oh yeah absolutely I should probably watch less chaters and think that's how the industry work but but as a leader in your company that's that's quite easy to do if it's your company but in a setting like this where you get lots of people from lots of different companies companies with different

cultures and different understanding is there something that we can all bring into an event like this that say we're in the bar after this or we're at a lunch event and somebody says something how do people know that we've got each other's backs and that's not just to Darren go on make answer that difficult question well I just I was reading something um couple of days ago and it's a it's reporting on the um Finance industry and how they've been supposedly cleaning up their act but it's been sort of creeping out of the office and more into conferences like this um and as you know that sort of pricious behavior and men are getting more you know it's it's less obvious in the workplace but you know I guess those men will gravitate towards going to events where there is alcohol and you know they can get away with with more of it but the it was the comment that caught me was about younger um men

joining that particular industry with the best of intentions that they're not going to become you know like that but it's that doesn't seem to last particularly long because when they see their peers and they see older you know Men Behaving like that then it becomes it becomes the norm I suppose so like our home secretary sorry just just a thought there but how how anyone that high up in politics can make a joke about spiking and not get sacked I just find it it unbelievable that that's how badly women are seen in that environment that that no one is willing to stand up to someone with that much power without yeah that level of seniority um and it you know it is that I think it's it's from within Studios it has to be a cultural thing it has to be led from the top it has to be you have to be seen to be leading fearlessly and having zero tolerance to this sort of behavior in your own Studio

but also when we're out at events and or at pretty much any time what happened to you know you're representing your company wherever you know pretty much wherever you are so you know I think we all have a responsibility as men to you know just don't be dicks you know and if you're at an industry event then just you've got a responsibility for you know how we are seen by you know our younger peers so that's it's just one uh reflection on it I suppose is there and as you wanted to say anything on that Tom no um is there any way for us as an industry or as industry leaders to hold the rest of the industry to account for creating environments that are safe for employees Freelancers or players um I want to include players in that as well because I think they're a part important part of our ecosystem that sometimes we don't feel feel like we need to take responsibility for and

if you wanted to yeah I think you know the player point is really interesting um you know I've been in the room many times where we're talking about our players and then by default we're using you know he him uh vocabulary we're talking about you know teenage boys always um and it's you know we got to start breaking those stereotypes we got to be really careful with our language at every step whenever we're talking about anyone um not making the assumption that they are just going to be a young white male uh probably somewhere in the US it's very easy to say well that's our average player so we should just focus on them um but I think you know it goes beyond just thinking about who they are but then also like well how do we protect everyone else and so you know who how do we build out the tools that protect people when they are a victim of toxicity you know it's very easy to ban someone from your game but then they just come back you know how do we actually educate our players around the damage that the toxicity is doing

and I guess you know the question then is like well whose responsibility is it to do that education is it us as you know the company who owns the game that should we be out you know telling our players to stop being dicks or should it be you know society as a whole like how do we start this this movement I think you know the best way is that we at least start talking about it um and that's why this you know it's it's really difficult because you know I I've met the players I've done lots of these consumer research panels and when you're one-on-one with them and you're interviewing them they're really lovely and then you know you put them behind the screen and they're anonymized and then you know it's foul some of the things you know we've all played multiplayer games here I'm sure and some of the language that's used online it's just not okay and it's it's really hard to even challenge that behavior there and then because you know I'm only challenging them as an anonymous person behind the screen and all I'm going to get back is abuse um and so you know why why would I want stick my neck above the parit for that

situation do you think the issue is confused but they're also by the fact that they're also our consumers they're the people who pay for our content and the most vocal are often those that play the most so in a way we almost let them get away with it because that's who's paying our bills I think or I think or is that Nuance not but I think you know how much money would we be getting from the players that we've turned away because we've this toxicity to happen with our games you know we know that teenage boys will go and buy the next CoD mobile um release or whatever it is that's coming out but you know how many women out there would want to play those games if they knew that they were going to have a safe fun time doing so and not you know have someone yelling at them just for having speak on them spoken on the microphone um so I do think that you know from a buiness pure business standpoint there's a huge opportunity out there that if we can get rid of toxicity within our games that we're going to attract you know new players to

these genres that are then going to go on and play other games and other games and so really by not you know I don't believe that if we could combat toxicity teenage boys are not going to leave just because we got rid of toxicity you know that it's just going to attract more players into the industry um and that's why you know again from purely if we're just thinking numbers and money it's really important for us to deal with this because it is just going to lead you know increasing the value of the games industry I think it's um kind of wise to point out as well we we're not going to stop it it's it's not going to stop so we're not here to say brilliant five years time it's all going to end happy days because it's not you know there there still racism still sexism and we've been talking about it forever so I think it's those small steps and chipping away at it to ensure that perhaps in 50 years time it's really common set for people people to just call people out on it you

know and people then start thinking twice about should I say that you know and again you know we can't we can't police everybody you know everybody's going to have their own opinion you know you've got to allow people to have their own opinions it's just when do you voice that when it's appropriate to do that and what are the circumstances around that so I think it's just you know really careful to make sure we manage expectations on it because you know you mentioned football earlier you know the CH out campaign's been going for years there's still racism it was in the news this week where someone you know the couple of games got stopped because you know goalkeepers was getting abused or players were getting abused so they stopped the game so it's still going on um but at least they stopped the game but they stopped the game and players off the pitch that was good and that's the thing it's kind of you need someone to make that bold decision and go this this isn't cool it isn't right and we got to we got to stop it um but baby steps I think so where do we get that leadership within our industry to do

that how do we develop some cross industry thinking so that we're sticking together and people are clear that you know with these people in the room this will not be tolerated or is it down to individuals or do we say at an event like this one they have a really clear policy or looking at who's in the room at a was you know that this will not happen you know is it up to the events to make that clear is it up to individuals or is it a combination of all of that I think it's all of them um you know I think you know what you did mentioning it on on your post that you did that's really good because you're you're putting a focus on it and you're calling them out publicly now you're going to get into liel if you start naming names so you can't name names but you can you can publicly say this event was was awful and it was awful for these reasons and if people stop going to those events because of that they'll have to change it so I think it's that

again it's calling out have the kind of the strength to call it out and call it out often enough that people start listening and going yeah that isn't cool we can't do that I won't go to that event because I've heard it's like this so I'm not going to go so it just takes more and I hate to say it takes more white men to to stand up and go it ain't cool you know we can't be talking about this we can't be doing that and you know all other are more likely to do but I'm saying white men because there's more white men in the industry than any so this all started of reports coming out of GDC is anyone not going to go to GDC because of what happened at last GDC you don't have to answer all the questions D are you not going to go to GDC now you know what happened I have to go to GDC because it's part of my job but I was very reluctant this year here to press that button and genuinely thinking how

how can I get out of it but I can't like it is my job to business development but I know throughout the conversations with the rest of this years a lot of people have said I really don't really want you know I don't want to do GDC whether it's directly connected to the events of last year but I I don't know but I have to go i' I'd be interested to you know if you did an article on on why you find it such kind of uh you know a thing to go to now and how it's how you've changed your thinking and why now unless you had to go you perhaps wouldn't go I think that would be interesting kind of like to to tell people and say look this is what I'm thinking now you know it was toxic for me it was toxic for other people how can we change it and you by speaking out and putting that out to to others perhaps they're going to go do you know what I I didn't think of it in that way yeah but it's not you know it's not unique to GDC is that it's not just one that just happened to be the

Catalyst that you know for me but it's not it's not one show no but it's also a show where a lot of deals get done so I'm trying to balance off the commerciality of doing stuff versus having just to put up with things and as a woman who's worked in games industry bizdev you just had to get on with it whether you liked it or not and that's with individuals and with and events and you'd find allies in the room I know that I can go from there there cuz that person's safe and that person's safe so I've just got to go round those seven people there and get through there and that'll be fine Every Other Woman in the industry has that map has those people who are allies and goes through is I can I can see every woman in you're yeah um but you have those allies in the room I mean we did talk at the develop one some people wanted to give allies armbands so that we knew who they were in the room but there was a lot of push back from we don't don't need another badge or something else to do no I know we're not going to have on

B that they could use the badge to hide if there wen't a t-shirt or a badge then they can hide behind it so we'd really like this to be a conversation um and the last three uh Chats on all the presentations no one got a chance to ask questions so we'll keep doing for another couple of minutes and then I will happily open this up to the room because it needs to be a conversation for all not three people lecturing from the stage because we're only going to solve this together as a group so if anyone has any questions catch my eye and we'll come to you um so I'm going to jump to a last question and then come back is there any way you think we can measure how well we've improved how do we know when we've got somewhere better do we just wait for spiking stories do we wait to them to go down and say oh we've got better do we need to measure our progress and and if so how do we do that I mean at Super Evil we've taken a

slightly active approach towards trying to measure this you know we do our yearly Dei survey internally completely Anonymous we ask everyone you know just trying to get a measure of how people identify um what their backgrounds is you know where you know they maybe their educational status as well just to try and keep a pulse on it this is particular relevant for us as we're recruiting very actively right now and so as the company grows it's really important that we try try to maintain some kind of pulse check on how we're growing and where we're growing um and so you know we've also built this into our appraisal process every year as well so we have five company values and the first two are all around you know inclusivity and diversity I think it's integrity and citizenship and then directly a Dei value and so we we incorporate questions on those into our appraisal process so that we can ensure that we are continuing to talk about this that our line managers are talking

to our employees and that we are rating ourselves and rating individuals as well on how we are progressing on those measures doesn't help on the industry standard but at least it tries to keep us honest and it can see how we're growing and then we can try and take course correcting action as well um it's it's tough though I mean we are you know the ideal would be 5050 even split across everything and we are nowhere near that um kind of similar atom Hawk are part of sumo group and and Sumo group are a very kind of aware and very kind of active in kind of making sure people feel inclusive and there's lots of procedures in place uh there's lots of um talks that happen there's safe spaces on teams groups that people can go to and feel part of um and part of management go to that as well just to kind of listen and understand and and kind of hear more um so there's lots we can do and we do do as as a studio but it's it's that wider thing the the thing I found uh generally is that you know

the industry we in very creative and you've you know creative people and again I'll say it tend to be tend to be more inclusive you know because you're creative you understand lots of things you want to learn lots of different things that's how you're creative that's how you you build yourself is by being creative and and being inclusive if you're not inclusive if you're not embracing other other styles or or other kind of um you know peoples you you're not going to gain much yourself you're not going to grow yourself so it tends to be that so for I think we we're not preaching to the converted because you know we still need to convert lots of people in the industry but we're certainly on a better footing than perhaps someone who works in a factory or or Works in a supermarket and oh can I be a challenger on this good at being a Challenger in Brackets difficult woman um so we've seen a lot of companies who've been incredibly successful but have a real bro culture who I'd say don't really

Embrace that the the beautiful description you gave of creative people but they've been massively successful and I've I know who you're talking about I have worked for them in the past so um and that's the people at the top you know the people at the Top If they get away with it then it it encourages others and empowers them to do so so you know and most of them have gone there thankfully um and it it it took you know it did take a revolution almost to to get them out and rightly so but if that empowers more people now to go out and and do that and start talking about it and feel free to talk about it then brilliant you know it had to happen and that had to happen that way because the people who were who were in charge were like that um but generally speaking you know I I found this industry to be more than welcoming um to an extent what and

I will throw a cautionary note um the worst thing you can do is is give someone a job give them a position because of who or what they are don't do it don't do it because if that person fails it makes it so much harder to do it the next time give that person that role or that job that deserve that but what we've got to do is encourage more people my more diverse people to come in in the first place and get that coming in but tokenism forget it doesn't work and it'll blow up in your face and it get thrown back at you if if it does blow up in your face so make sure you're hiring the right people to do the right job but make sure you give the opportunity to everybody to come and get that job that's the only culture it's back to that talk before about inclusivity that that absolute definition of inclusivity although I've made a career out of being the token woman on a panel so that's working really well for me but we'll see how

that goes Mick have you anything to add before we open it up and I hope someone's going to ask a question um no because I think I've talked enough so we question I'd really like to hear from the audience I can oh okay we go that way hi yeah speak up oh on now um I just wanted to ask about the something you you've kind of talked about particularly um you Darren um the fact that we have to kind of work in this broken system in order to try and make change I mean you've been in the games industry for 30 years so you've had to have stuck around through some really not great points in in your career to to try and you you know to still be here and and now you can can be someone like it's easier for other people joining the

industry um who see someone who's like themselves and is advocating for those things and is in a leadership position um and the discussion about GDC like do we still go if people don't go then that leaves who alone there to be prayed upon like if all the people who have a problem with predatory behavior don't turn up um so I I guess I just want want to bring that up for discussion like how much crap do we have to put up with and then stay here um before we draw a line where do we say enough is enough um can I add to that that's why there were very few senior women left in the games industry because most people just up sticks and went I don't want to take this rubbish anymore and that's why we don't have so many senior women like you I joined in '92 I don't know why I'm still here I'm some kind of sist go on Darren I give you a breath yeah um it it depends again it's something on

the individual you know I'm I'm very stubborn you know I I like to stand by my principles um but I know it's very difficult for some people to do that and they will reach a Breaking Point and will leave you know very talented people have left and the industry has been worse for it um again all we can do is support that person and and kind of say you we we your ally you know we're here we can help you through this and and let's call out let's get rid of the other people you know um one of one of the things that that um we we look out for when we hire is we're very very cautious about talented you know and I've seen a lot of them doesn't matter how good you are if you don't fit in if you don't want to kind of you know not be a dick we don't want you and you know I can't I can't help

people who have come to the end of their tether you know it's it's one of those things that it's lost unfortunately it's lost but going forward by talking about it by people in this room now who will move up in the industry who have this line of thought and want things to get better infiltrate get there and start pushing out as the norm and I think that's all we can do CU it is it's really unfortunate we lost people you know why why have I stuck around um I yeah I'm I'm slightly different that you know being a black male I've got you know C people look at me in a certain different way and that kind of you angry black male kind of stereotype uh and you this is my resting face it looks angry so you know unless you want to bring it you're not going to come to me full on and that's why I noticed to kind of really Nuance things more because people have about to do that to me directly cuz they couldn't come face on cuz I can look after myself but you

shouldn't have to do that you know you shouldn't have to look as if you can look after yourself you shouldn't have to look as if or act in a certain way you know if if you're female and you kind of want to get on you don't have to act anything but female um but people have had to try and do that and that's where it just gets too much because you're not being your authentic self and you have to stop I think there was a question just in front of you oh there was one and going hi yeah oh it's working now um it's interesting what you were saying about um don't give somebody the job if they don't deserve it effectively that's what you're saying it's the idea of tokenism um I'm an educator I have been for many many years now and I find that it's not just about who's already in the industry but who's coming through to it as well so what you guys and what your thoughts on how we encourage the future generations to come into this industry

to rebalance things because at the moment and again working in schools and things you do find predominantly the people with aspirations to come into this industry are young boys white straight men let's be clear let's be clear on on on who it is yeah I'm not I'm not the greatest kind of you know face for this is what you could be I'm trying to encourage other people to come into this industry as well yeah so I know you said not to give the job to them but one thing we try to do is give them the interview at least you know you never know until you actually talk to these people you don't know exactly what their skills going to be like or how good they're going to be at that job at least give them the interview and if it becomes clear I've been in this situation so I'm very clear that they are not the right person for this role and so then I will try and pivot the interview into like giving them some advice giving them some tips you know I've booked out my time for the next hour so I'm going to try and give you some of my time to help grow this person particularly in the junior roles I found

this is much more applicable um and so then hopefully they will go and find the role that is right for them and that they will still you know they'll leave that interview with some things that they can go do rather than just feel bad that the interview didn't go very well um and so that's personally what I try and do um in that yeah which which works really well for those people that are already in front of you and coming through but what about I'm thinking about earlier than that you know um you know you're 14 15-year-old children who are coming through it's really difficult and one of my other passions is is kind of um making sure we work with the um education system um I go to lots of schools I go to colleges I go to universities um I took a year out and taught um and and one of the things I learned from from that um and I took that year out because of speaking to universities and colleges and and they're just not saying the right thing or teaching the right thing or or kind of promoting the right thing and one of the things that um that really stuck out

for me is the place I taught for a year was in um wara which is in West Midlands real diverse kind of area you know lots of black Asian um you know people in there I had one um black kid in my class and it's the in some communities it's just not seen as a viable option you know it's closed off to them they don't know about it don't understand it um and one of the many questions I got asked was well is it a career you know the it's a bit of a laugh now and I can you well I've been doing it for years so yes it is a career um so again it's I like to grab them I got to careful I like to grab them early you know you've got to get them at at school level and say this is an absolute opportunity for you and we will give you all of that advant nice and opportunities to do so you know my my LinkedIn is is full of people asking me

questions constantly and I try and get around to every single one of them to give them some advice because that's the least I can do because I owe it to everyone who's trying to come through to to give you a boost because I I didn't have a boost I had to work my way through and learn the pitfalls and get all the crap that came with it so I can now say okay this this is what I can do do for you this I can help you but it needs communities it needs schools giving out that message this is a viable option for you you can do this yeah and i' just like to say that's a great message and I really thank you for that um but I think it's schools don't really know what they're doing I mean I know working in the school myself they don't know the industry they don't know what what's what's there for people it needs people like you guys and everybody else in the room for that matter to be able to reach out and say this is an opportunity for anybody but I think there's there's also an opportunity for us to hone in on Career changes we're an industry who are desperately short of

mid to senior people but we only insist in a Dev environment of taking people who've been through the development cycle one two three four times why we never really understand why but that's just what we do so I'd rather take someone Junior and give them a promotion that they're not ready for than than train someone who's moved from similar skills in a different industry to ours because we think we're dead special we're not special we making a piece of interactive software no but I mean we can grab people I'm special thanks I know that David put his hand right up at the beginning and then we'll shall I run to David you've got a loud voice we put on I don't we put on events and we have a code of conduct for all of our events uh it actually started out with don't be a dick was our messaging

we had to change Don't Be a Jerk because a parain um and by like we are responsible for anybody who is in the bounds of our event so I would challenge any events where you feel that something is not right because it is our responsibility to make it that way so we have to be allies as event producers as much as everybody else and I wrote quite public in the gamesindustry.biz thing about the man who stalked me on LinkedIn at an event which stopped me then going out to any event because I was terrified and I just stayed in my room so that he didn't stalk me anymore thank you I'm just going to reiterate that as well I think the key things to make sure you're being proactive and not reactive um I helped a certain company based in France who had a lot of problems with their CEO uh do some work on professional boundaries a few years ago um and I've also helped a few companies on codes of conduct um and it's encouraging that sometimes companies are not coming to me now just

because something has happened and therefore we have to um it's also re encouraging for instance at developed to see end dreams had a really good policy for the people are on a stand that was very proactive and upfront rather than it being a reactionary thing as well so it would also make sure you encourage people to look at codes of conduct make sure you've got them you know have you done the work on professional boundaries one for interactions with people but also in interactions with players because that does help people feel psychologically safe and have knowledge that there is somebody or something that can go to as an advocate as well so do the work in advance and not just reactionary it's a shame that you have to and at the same time it will help the team to feel safer I think um we're over time can we carry on we're out of time is there anything after us yeah okay I try I really try so just quickly thank you to everyone for turning up being Ally I've worked out who everyone is and when I see you at the event you're my map thank you um and thank you

for all the panelists for turning up and and just being very visible in what we're trying to do and change things thank you everyone thank you it's obviously a very important subject and one that we need to have more so than just 40 minutes on a stage it's one we need to be having all the time