No Country for Old Devs with Des Gayle | GduX.me

[Music] yes a mother's death scale and I'm a father produced of all the team at micro studio and it's based in the UK but we're all right so you'll have a couple of friends who so we used to work together but it we scattered around the globe so well great no problem we can still keep going tapping the game since 1998 I'm older than I look and the last 10 of those have been as a producer of one to develop awards the BAFTA award and they were both for life is strange with Square Enix and own blood I'm the vice chair of charity called Games AIDS where we were an umbrella charity and we collect donations over the comes to be here and then our members vote for which charities should get the money and then it's roughly the top eight or nine

characters that get the vote the most votes we just split the money equally and towards them we've I think we're close to about five million in donations now over the last 30 odd years so yeah it's good all right I'm member for the UK trade body for video games and I'm a founding member of POC and playing which is a racial equity and inclusion group for videos so yeah what's all about today I went to do a little bit of retrospective from my journey from professional land into independent development and in terms of takeaways I mean I just think hopefully through sharing some of the pain points that I've had over my career I can kind of like help some of some of some of you guys of it so yeah I started a long time

ago at Lego media and we were we were kind of like the digital arm of leg traditional toy company awesome first job to have I start as a QA tester but Authority testing and Lee didn't really go hand in hand luckily my boss recognized his and he was like hey dude try some summit kick some stuff and I was like yeah sure why not so um yeah I spent the next two years just doing some command-line encryption tools which kind of helped our gang stop getting crapped on on PC I mean you know Commission at the time in there he's awful of weeks but those initial days was enough to save the money we made during those days not be cracked was was enough to keep this game for a while but Lego you know that family-run business and maybe they know toys and they're a little bit ahead of their time you know

they knew the world has moved into digital space but they just wasn't they weren't prepared to go you know all-in so there's some creative differences so for the first couple of games like leg and loud and then erasers you know they are awesome but they were still limited because with our character design they had to move like minifigs which meant they only move to two axes and we're just like okay well you know ps1 these 3ds got lost nice graphics for that time we we need to be doing higher fidelity animations yes no and then it gets cascaded from there so the games like our competitors racing you know higher quality games high fidelity games and Lego just like oh you know what we're out a lot we love doing games anymore so imagine master product you know fast forward ten years we see all the TT games with amazing animations just like that's what we know is is it way you

know Univ alone so yeah like I found the business uni and that was redundancy number one I made a brief stop at Xbox after this and I helped launch the original Xbox which was cool and is really it's really tough back then doing submissions because we had to privatize everything on big fat back tapes two of them and the process is submission so I took you down took a long time it looked quite a bit better than the old CDs we used to burn for presentation but you know time consuming off thing um but yeah I was only there briefly earlier for a month because I actually got head hunted by yeh which initially was awesome like I back in the day I played Madden at FIFA like that is all I played so when you know same

company came after me I was like yeah I mean I would fit into view their their fancy so for a glass building with nice lake in front and you know a couple of swans and stuff I wasn't even listening to what my future boss was saying I was like I don't really made up my mind and sadly what I did actually start working there we're in the building over the road they'd read like one floor from from Samsung so I only get to get a nice building for lunch but there but hey but you know the first couple years are amazing you know we've done really good work over there and we were the first business unit in Europe to make opinion and you know it's a massive celebration we went to here at Disney and they go out hand and a long story short we not allowed back there as a company um but yeah but sadly are sewn into gear fool

there's a new person arrived that had an issue with me which turned out to be Rachel William and it's weird I mean like I mean you don't grow up in England a fair share of troubles anyway but so you develop a thick skin so I wasn't really pay attention to it and it was only when a colleague said to me as I've had like that's you know he's he's acting out a line like you need you need to report this so I did and she didn't end very well I did a very bad job of supporting me and at that point that made up my mind to leave but I hadn't actually left yet but I got an opportunity here later so basically they're moving our business unit to Spain and I just wrapped up five years there so I I did the total numbers in my head and I'm sort of counting four teams on the sea and leave and you know

they were like why I just thought well it wasn't the same company it was when I started so and five years is a good time so good stretch you know I went to happen is in for the wisdom you know loyalty only goes one way and that's from the point of the company not go around irrespective of what happened APA would have been something else the end of you know given the previous discussion about crunch and how companies you know manage resources right you know they've all got a spreadsheet and if the number of the bomb doesn't match then a business you disappear so um yeah I wasn't dumbstruck by Lahti so it allowed me to move on which was which is pretty cool um so after that if I see there's one more thing I would say I think this is not saying you shouldn't find out how the sausage is made and EA opened my eyes

like they they are a fantastic business and they taught me so much about the business and like it what one hand was it especially he on the other hand that he kissed as a fan and as a as a kid it just broke my heart like you just how do I get details here but you notice the economics of making games and you know we charge people and versus what the investment was it's just yeah mind boggling for them yeah it's good I mean I still what this is that learnt they have that I still use today um so yeah after that I went to a small company called exeunt over in Oxford and funnily enough still working on the a gate so we the f3 EA Sports title on the guests or PSP you know back in the late the late 2000s which was which was very cool but this is where my second

glance he happened I see survived one round there already but them if this was when I started to realize that the middle tier was slowly starting to disappear so you know the publishers had realized why are we paying these mid tier teams where we can have them in built them in-house and see us they can work on all our games rather than just one game walkest apartment franchise see how mister I missed the first round was economic I couldn't escape and it was it was fine so I exited that was my first producer job so that's when I learned more about the economics of projects and running companies and you know sad to say like you know when you know if you're making the ghost company right you need three things you need art you can't be designed there that they're the three skill positions you need I mean over time as I've grown up seek I'm producer

so I say we need four things you know at production and business support in there as well but um yeah cueing production they look they're the first ones are going to get chopped and after that you know you start picking off your weaker redness of the skill positions yes after that I ended up over Barcelona working for a company called digital legends this is pretty cool working some games for for a diva's yeah I mean it wasn't my best work but they were they were making on their own version of the Nike+ and they wanted a game that read data from the the dongle and it affected your in-game avatar made you stronger it was just a vehicle to sell motor dice because you know there are sports wear a shoe company and that's what you want great idea execution was interesting but um that was my first lesson of you know never work on Lord

child where because he won't be ready and never work on prototype hardware because it definitely is already so you have about six months and then like it's enough we ship the games did we do not interesting what was going on next and I did actually I went to come home so I ended up at climax with the studio down in Portsmouth and this is really cool we're working on a legacy of kain reboot for sprayer Enix it was ambitious and we took it over looking at we're looking at ya 360 ps3 and he had again just if the games too big for the consoles it should have been a ps4 Xbox one title but them long story short we couldn't hear the quality that the square on it so they can a project and yeah that redundancy efficient we don't see number two account

daddy you're the egg one because I left [Music] so that left me to go abroad again back to continent and this time I end up in Germany like if the Crytek I was the putting magic for their R&D department which was super cool and some of the smartest smartest people on the planet work there I was regularly the dumbest guy in the room I was always making notes and going to Google afterwards just to work out like what these people were saying the end like really ambitious company you know in doing I'm sure low do you familiar with their work and you know you only be seen the stuff they haven't even shipped so he's just crazy they're always trying to go ahead a little head of the curve too far sometimes but you know it's normal takes risks then you know there's not massive rewards but yeah this is my run of bad

luck continued been decided to most of my department with another department but Wendy had a pullet major okay sigh well last one in first one out so off you go so you don't see number three came back home back again and I was like you know what it I just I it's enough you know I've got a family to feed and this instability is just doing my head in so I jumped out into tech land and work for a mobile phone startup and we were making entry-level Android devices for for Asian markets and then yes what I promised was good you know hardware is good we had a big hitting team you know you have me from the sort of like software technology from we have a guy from X nong khiaw doing the hardware stuff I go back from Sony doing marketing it was there some think it

isn't a team is awesome however two months before launch yeah this company Nokia you might heard of them um release their own low-end device in our core market off Indonesia and of course all of our conversations we have when I call carriers and stores just drive up so that killed that one and there can't be done cuz like okay cool I took cut myself have some money saved up so you know expensive time the kids which is awesome but then I got a phone call from screenings hey yo something you do on account helps out well I sure you know you know I in my six months away I realized I love video games and you know apart from my six month I assist all I've done and I really love it so I said yeah I'll come back um funny thing I went in for the interview and the two guys I was seeing one of two

guys that responsible for caddying the game with other climax so that was funny you know get a good fight with it sort of laugh about that I'm naked guys yeah it just it was just business but yeah luckily that you know that going to turn that to be life is strengths which was yeah challenging game to work on but you know we we shipped it in the end and you know be proud of the product and yes it's you know it's a franchise now so that's testament to how good the game wasn't you know the hard work and then someone that finished a brief stint on DEFCON 3 and then I moved their disgrace collective I call it the Dark Side curse the publishing side and what we're doing basically we we had a pop from big Square Enix and they were like okay here's the money if s games it'll be nice see some change you know

have fun find some good people so yeah I mean it was tough it's a good dish you know nothing of the a year and a half and I was working on about nine games concurrently I don't recommend doing that but luckily our portfolio was kind of we had a good spread so you know in a couple of teams that definitely didn't eat me producing production hell for me about three teams that did need a lot of help from me and then the middle ground where I did we just met touch base and do stand-ups and stuff and they'll be okay I think what the games right now but um yeah as awesome and see how my contract ended there so my mid-2017 and by that point I was just like okay cool so I think I've got the tools now you know I've worked on internal development about external development I work for a publisher and I've worked for a big brand you know was going on and I've worked for many brands that didn't know was going on so I felt comfortable and I felt ready to branch out on there and start doing stuff for GE yeah so

initially started quite well so you haven't mentioned it I mean production you know for the given it in the context of making a game don't really have much talent so I tried to learn coding for a bit and I made a couple of apps like non games just to kind of just get my mind around it and then I did have a foray into games but I'm not quite sure what's wrong but it just doesn't jive agree so I knew I had to start building a team around we that could help because I already knew from the publishing side that you know you can know in front ideas unless your name's Hideki Timur or to a lesser extent Mike before or sad Barlow yeah you know funds like this so you need the you need the prototype and

you need people to build those so what I did was I freelance as a producer and at my income I got from that I used to put into making games and prototypes which was fun you should release a first game hyper Estela on mobile three years ago now and that game it was it was an eye-opener for me I I it just exposed me to the the brutal realities of free-to-play mobile so the problem we had was a complication of ignorance and innocence so we didn't want to especially back then we didn't want to use traditional methods of of making money for people who say hey you know enjoy the game you know so really it's nice chunk of the game and if you want anymore life what if it'd be cool and if

Allah by anymore spaceships you can use me in-game currency so we had balloons working ladies weren't aggressive enough and then we didn't we didn't have really K factor so there's no way to kind of have fans of the game get other people into the game there's a massive mistake on my part and I did the cardinal sin of making a late change like late production yeah there's a new kind of motivation tool where it would abrogate like a great strong word but basically it would analyze the prices on Android in different countries and suggest different prices based on that roll just a blanket price across the board I mean something I realized that we had to do I knew because we did it when our PC games back at square you know they're not will say prices okay territory and

that's kind of that experience coach J in my view as a producer I should be like nope it's too late we ship as it is and then we can do stuff in update but because I have that prior knowledge that I just eating at me too much CMS we slipped our release date messed up what I press there's that and we have not made our money back by a long stretch so after that we're just like okay my mole week we chose mobile because it's small because easy but are the team members you know our skill set is PC consoles over are careless let's go back over here let's start working with prioritize for this but then the money started to dry up so each of us had to start get contractor everywhere else and then all the team became part time but upon which part time is part on equals slow so when

you kind of speak to publishers you know hey you've got this thing this is your idea this to Russ sort of like gray box prototype they're like you know sounds interesting but you know come back to us when you've got somewhat more some more web senses are now in my circles of contacts you know I'm very programmer heavy so you know and program is quite cheap for me but our isn't especially these days where you know you need to be you need that differentiator right like I think this is not to be disrespectful to a programmers but you know there's a level of competence right where you can you can make a game in these days where you where striking in in the market to catch people's is the art that does it the tech behind it to a certain extent you know is it what drives it I mean if you think about aesthetics right

journey cuphead even even little games this new John wick hex like you know it's got a static - right so you know everyone could be like see screenshots all that second and yeah I mean a couple P of people saying well you know that's a unique game well unreal game you know there's this trace their common the most games and this these ones that we we stand out so sorry had a three long we do Braintree erasing of me of saying yeah things going slow but we all work on you get now which requite happy with we should solve right be more about that towards the end of the year so yeah I guess now I guess what this is the tip section that I wanted to get on live it's kind of these are the proper proper

pain points that I had nice tighten up and I spoke to a couple of my new friends and they're just like yeah these similar problems we have so yeah basically so you need the cab full stop I would speak to friends get recommendations and start there you know get to a three or four and just have a free phone call with them and ask them a couple of questions and if they if they won't do a free phone call I think it's been them gets dumped you know then that ones you need to talk to it and when you do have them on the phone you need to ask them what other games clients they have and then why are not asked you specifically but you know what you're trying to get out of that is do they know the games business you know and you can ask them I guess how many games prior to what sizes because from that you can gauge like where you'll be in a

pecking order I mean don't get me wrong it's a business right you know you don't pick up the phone they'll answer instantly but you know that's just gonna gauge whether you're gonna get your answer back in days or weeks you know co-star crackles you know making making games so once you've got that yes go one you like you know you're gonna be working with them for a long time they're good people and they will save you money . you know even after you've paid them off your fee if you pay like that and then when you do your annual return like they'll save you thousands I love my accounts but they're not watching because they're a bit and then engine so I mean it's wasn't fun for me I I knew I had some friends working at Indian companies and we started off using unity they just because my friends were so the support was you know I knew that I could

go outside of the official channels to get the help that I needed and that was super important to me and then I guess you just need to ask yourself a series of questions right so you need to ask yourself do you have the skill all ready to use whatever anything in pick versus do you have to keep good right you need to learn do you need to upskill you have to use it that's that's going to help you decide and then you got truth versus fiction right so does the engine actually do what it says it can do first is oh yeah it's on the right map somewhere in you know 2022 if you've got a feature that you need that's on that road back in two years time like you cannot use that engine and hope that they do it like thank that August not work because those companies don't care about you they care about bigger bigger

fish a linear simple bunch of stuff so by now versus pay later my friends won't like me saying this but if you are using unity and you know within the budget constraints then yeah please just use the free version just way to get to beat her before buying licenses you can take this flat screen out and that you noticed best features behind that that you really shouldn't be paying money for during development yeah sorry honey and then also I guess the other thing is his head start versus long term so going back to the skills question is how fast can you get a prototype up and going and then do you just want to use one engine just to make the prototype knowing that you're going to throw it away later and then build it properly Oh is your game a bit more complicated bigger budget and he knows to be a multi-year project and you prepare to

you know to build slowly and if he's any good the place to do that I've seen you disappointed a multi-year project I think if you're a small indie team now if you're taking longer than a year to 18 months making a game he's probably got a good idea you know Mikey's quite tough right now so you know a lot of time right engaged more money need to make back I would just the scope the game yeah I mean it is hard to say yeah it's tough I as a producer this is a very sexy for me to say but what you trying to do is you're trying to get to good enough you know can you make a good enough product that will sell enough to keep you going and you can add to sexy stuff in afterwards in updates yeah and good good enough isn't good enough isn't

a quality indicator that that's not where I'm going with it what Gary is they know in your target market and your target audience and you can pay of titles what is the bare minimum you need to compete and that last way she began for and you shouldn't be doing that with him living here yeah so networking and this is one thing I was just [Music] retrospectively good at so you know I'm a people person and I always run my teams like that you know I know buddy's names and you know I just go a little bit beyond work right so you know you remember kids birthdays you know even the you know war football team they like stuff like that because I'm a firm believer that you know happy people make happy teams and happy teams

make better games so if you keep that relationship going you may give just make better product so they're always every company ad I've left you know I've taken a bunch of friends from there so you know I've got a nice contact list now people that you know 20 years ago that we still keep in touch it's awesome and it makes a lot of things you're now freelancing right so both ways so whereas their skill set might be code or art or design right obviously production when they need help on that right of course no problem they even paid me for that or we do a exchange but are they cool you know I can't figure out how to do his animations can you can you help me out you network is important you should always always have a few people that you take Nabire when you when you leave and I guess I just remember the industry

small you know I've been in many sort of like coffee shops or parties where you know I've heard people but have nothing other people and obviously it's not my place to judge those justifiable or not but um you remember that stuff and then when you see other people interviews but oh hey yeah when you're the kid that was bad-mouthing this person and the awesome for the reference of stuff it didn't like it basically it all kind of like comes back to bite people I mean don't you drama you know I love a good beef as much as the next person you know if it's justified but if you know just be aware of who's listening and also once you're in deal and it's important with the sort of publisher the platform holders so I although some platforms we're not working with but I still make time to toss them events just to learn what opportunities might happen and I'll say

you know they won't break NDA if you look anything but they're not allowed to tell you that it does make if you get information early enough in your production cycle you could be like okay think about that then at least that doors I prefer a step down the line because yeah you know technology is fast but sometimes you know the gain industry cycles doesn't yeah and I guess the example of that is with the swings right so I mean you know it's a great new platform but development for it isn't great if you've coming from the other end so if you have another higher end game and getting work on switches and isn't fun but if you know that up front even though you know it only defecates we're not planning on lying on it you know if you solve our target a high-end mobile you can be like a cool well we'll be in we're halfway there of doing some

sweet stuff and then the last thing I want to say is just a little bit of a public service announcement for producers so a lot of time people get in touch with me and they like ah you know if I have money and I you know we're we're six months over schedule and we've got another nine months left unlike like a us I'm sad sorry to hear that but it's too late I can't help you um you know everyone always calls me when the fires burning and you know the products are solvable and I will do myself a disservice here like I think if you're a small team you know if there's less than five of you you do not need a full-time producer that would be a waste of money resource but you should get someone part-time you know maybe just get them in

every two weeks beginning and end of a sprint or however you manage your team you know you should speak to them just a sanity check and be like that does this protect plan make sense could you tell us what putting plan is to sit buddy for this type of game with this scope because I make sense to you trust me you know half a day or a day with them will save you a lot of money and you know they don't have to be super expensive but you know the knowledge is valuable and once you get over five you know higher higher number six higher number seven should have a production capacity even if you will Randall that myself is deaf because if you're bootstrapping now and you want to get some money a fund raising it's a full-time job you know and if you're in one of the skilled positions are coded or are all designed like you know you don't to be taking time away from that

because then that's going to affect the the quality of the game see how that it left my I had to do my solid for producers yeah that was that was pretty much it I I blacked through that but I think I'm close to being on time so that's awesome um yeah I mean you see if you want to reach out on Twitter kid DeSimone one of the teams are working with Sky Studios who a game called routed right es iam that's available for pre-registration on Google Play now and I've administered at the start of the talk yeah I'm a member of pocket play and I am hosting the first event outside of London so if any of you want to from England particularly in the north of England coming journalist in Manchester and that the link is in the white bear thank you very much oh man all right so we're piping back in hey does thank you for the talk I've

actually got a couple of questions we want to hit you with but first thank you very much for the insight and helping nd teens prepare themselves for when and how to get producers involved in what they do and I appreciate you actually being very honest and forthcoming about hey like hey look you don't need me yet this is about when you would need me and here's how to do it like you know not being completely self-serving in life is a good quality I would say so I appreciate that level you want to jump in on question number one Braden uh yeah before that I want to do some comments sure I just listened to your talk it was very much reminiscent of what I gone through personally it's like as I was going through it's kind of like dragging dragging my head left but it's just like God gets on to the next thing and I totally empathize without you saying because obviously we Larry and I have the fortunate of being in the States and a lot of the changes that we do with our

moving and everything is between states we don't really have to go out of our country and it seems like it totally makes sense in Europe that you do have to move a lot and completely change just for happening since everything is so spread apart sometimes Oh in what year exactly at what point in your career where you felt like not it's a specific year but like years in your career where you're like about six years and I was like I'm not doing this anymore this is insane it's like you're - no I mean say initially about the first company if I either still will not ride you like I'm sort of thinking that hey my son was in my stomach one so you know you know working on Lego games and you know every so often they'll be some free-to-play that we could take like even loverlike of the gods to him so that wasn't fine and like I say it's like their tertiary

a right that was just I had to pinch myself at that point how does oils osterlich ad I was 22 and you know get working on the amazing games that we did back there like you'd be able to drink then England you know after what happened you know year for like still it wasn't I wasn't done yet I was like after all I'm a character suit this is fun and again no him his doctor protects a Crytek was 2012 so that would have been 13 years yeah yeah it to me they're proactive yeah well after storm and this is it is I've done it it's better you really country twice bike you know that's not cool yeah so I've got a question for you from let's see let me read it

sabirah sex question of speaker if someone will want to start out as a producer and perhaps freelance what would you recommend for that person if someone has done a little bit of everything in indie game dev but decides to go production what do you suggest that person do stuff for you know for the ratings I explained it but also fit but so this is what we and there two things about the maps yeah they're really teams that need the expertise well they don't to pay for it and that's tough like and for the most part I understand that like you know you know you gotta focus on the game for me it's gonna sound quite biased but for me like an old something bull which means I can sort of get work lots of people it's dying out a freelance I do it is super

tough because you need to find a team their respects the value that you bring the problem in so teams a minority idea there sorry this is really bad soccer my advice it to get jump 3d or two and then start to go out the kids you know you're gonna have the credibility problem right and then probably about the committee games immediately after that you've got our meat they sell if they ship on time and you know there's right unless they're like I don't found the engagement it won't be there's a said they could be right well the garden meant you can have a big title like that fine we need about the networking it's just being nothing out there so you know I don't really use Facebook that much but you know social media to bring great sure sure that everyone know that you're

available and then they can extend that out of their network if they think it's all along we need to producer ah I know I like that advice to advice get the job seriously it's sometimes the way that you hear isn't the way that you want to hear like but it's the hard truth is the truth for a reason yeah yeah I mean it's all about building your resume first and it is important to get that experience so you know what the hell you're doing I as soon as you start adding people to the equation and it can get pretty messy and if you don't have the experience to deal with people and and along with projects you can really show your hand real quick and it does a disservice to you and your employer or anyone that you're working with that you're you're just short-handed right so if you're starting out I definitely agrees like get some experience network it makes the

easier to find jobs afterwards it makes it easier to know if this is something you want to keep on doing it makes it easier to to even know like what type of games you'd like to work with and people you like to work with so you could be very cheesy it's very hard to do that if you're doing real ants and even remotely right because you're losing that whole huge interaction trying to kind of like read through the context of the text or the context of anything else it's like yeah man at the time he Skyped at me is a little different than the last time he's guided me it's like how can you read through that unless you're that good at people reading right and so if you have the various different people that you deal at the workplace that carries over to finally working remotely on a webcam and you're like all right obviously you're running to this issue and you're playing doctor at that point right you know like this is the same thing that I did last time therefore this is the fix go do it that's all you need to talk to me for if this hour I'll see you on discord the rest of the day yeah good

point so I waited I mean my favorite producers will hate me for this but I always say that you know I can probably teach someone all the mechanical stuff of production in you know four or five months the value-add is the experience right just as you said it's like I've done this before I have been here before and it wasn't good let's do this instead just best I mean that's why she pays for them yeah massive massive impact so I'm gonna actually a questions just personally for me so if you're looking at again because that questions seem to be about getting your career started and that you know just go ahead and get the job I just wanted to say like I often feel like the resume right the value of the resume is like people who work with you gave you a chance and vouch for you and like here's a list of people who've worked with me giving a chance in vouch

but also we have successful product you know how early is it in your career that you say like you have how many references would you say you're on autopilot now like I feel like in my career at this point I'm less excited about updating my resume I'm less excited about because I know that I have the skills to do my job and I know that done it and you can research and look and see that I've done it yeah someone on the way in they don't have you know six seven eight nine experiences now they might even still have Game Stop on their resumes you know they might even still have Best Buy on their resume because we see it a lot all night and maybe industry-related it solely off if there if there is a like what would you say is that a great number to shoot for before you're like look here's how you prove yourself get like one solid job for X amount of years or is it get two jobs for X amount of years where would you say is the like all right your seals been broken it'll probably be a lot easier for you now to find roles where people aren't so worried about you not having experience yeah that's a great question but now so I'm not on massive

fans database front of time I think Ricky is a guest in and you can put up to five if you love working at the place but I really depend on how big the company is there's just not enough room for you you know five years I think you found it like if he starts a bottle they're like you're not going to get promoted every year you'd like it lucky you might get a feel of promotion you know sort of least and so I you know him but I wasn't going for the chain right I think I think five years it's a good one if you've been to places and okay the discipline matters as well right so st. if I had agility there general artists you rely characters when you start up down into your specialization it's that that needs to have that Frank to five

deer mob so then yeah so if you've been at one place for five years and then in three try to be a character it's only three years you've got there and if you can move into character I again they've got their forty fair but if that for change I live in two environments or things are like yeah you've got that like sixty 10% of skiing or odd it's the bear 30 percent mark meaning that like me you know we're not going to take a pun and saying okay yes you're you know you can do also you'd be able to find stuff yeah if you got five years two jobs you know you should be a little more flexible with that but then I mean the promised land yeah you know you're looking at looking at a pen weight like the scenery questions like yeah okay cool you don't be doing it at that time you can see what each get two and a bit console cycles out of that you know you've gone

through and pains of doing that and having to have that fourth up skill right everyone needs to learn how to use any platform you know if they like it or not like you know you won't be learning so yeah I don't yeah so I don't you question that I mean long real long long winter after regain to be updated ain't attempt to be like the zero quest yes and she has been me like you don't know but I think you can do this alright amen well look we've had a great time talking with you man and actually I wanted to give one last shout out to you and your company alter gene appreciate you guys helping out multiple teams make their game dreams come true always being available so anybody out there looking for anything that Dez can do for you as a producer very experienced you know where to hit him up we had his credentials up there but you see his Twitter still there he's always looking to connect and he connected with us super easy very charming individuals so obviously you have a great working relationship I can vouch for that already and I've seen his resume he reached that eight to ten where there's

just no questions he's he's got it so Mendes amazing talk and everyone Twitter is actually happy to have you as well excuse me hot twitch so we look forward to seeing you in the future men and again you know just glad you could be a part of the first G ducks Expo in bringing their producer vibe because that's something that we lack actually both in our podcast and just in general as we discuss is like we do have a lot like artisan designers myself and even engineers and sometimes I have to make like will bake jokes like producer jokes you see that bad kibosh this period so glad you had on the air it wants to be why the big guns but I absolutely plan to thank you that a great and yeah I rested I think as well so yeah it's yours but thank you [Music] you

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