Could Game Pass get a tier with ads soon?

Rumor has it that ads are coming to the Xbox Game Pass, but that may just be the beginning of the ad apocalypse, which I guess is bad. It's bad news. I don't know why I'm guessing. Welcome to Game Discover Co. Show. I am co-host Chris Plant. I'm a veteran journalist and critic, and I am joined as always by my co-host, Simon Carlos, industry expert, analyst, and head of Game Discover Co. How are you doing today, Simon? I'm doing good. Yeah, I think there's been some interesting rumors out there and they are rumors but in this case, interestingly, possibly well sourced ones. So, yeah, I I'm looking forward to discussing some of this some of the many things we have to talk about today.
There is so much to talk about. If it is your first time here, we are here to help you better understand the game business broadly and the ongoing questions around game discoveries specifically. And we do that beginning with four big news stories. The first obviously being this rumor around Xbox

Game Pass being revamped at some point, probably in early 2027 and that part of that will be one of two tiers having ads. Do you want to explain like basically the shape of this rumor?
Yeah, I mean it's a the reason I I don't always go for these. It's definitely a random online person said this, but it was pointed out that this person did get some previous tier information correct on Game Pass. And also, it's a very specific rumor, and it's really specifically that um that that that they're going to take um Game Pass down another three bucks a month to $19.99 per month. Uh and then in in addition to that, that's for the current version. And then there might be an ad tier version that would be cheaper, like $12.99 a month, and would still get you a lot of the same stuff. Although there was some discussion that maybe some more day one games would disappear. I was a little unclear because this is sort of a garbled rumor about I suspect if they

did that, it would not be all day one games, but I suspect it would be more first party um day one games would go away again. So there's there's two interesting things about that. One is they're backing off. you know, they got it all the way up to 30 bucks a month, right? And that wasn't really working for them. So, they're they're they're backing off price some more. And also, they're trying to get a lower tier, if this is to be believed, with some ads in it.
Yeah. And I imagine there are some people who are listening who are like, why are we paying either the same or maybe slightly less for far fewer features if this rumor is true? And this idea of like they might remove uh cloud streaming, that would become like a bonus feature. you would have less day one, you would have ads in it. What is happening in the economy like the broader picture that is incentivizing companies to make these moves?
Yeah. I mean, historically, Xbox has been a very US and UK ccentric business for better or worse. And I think, you know, the US definitely with uh various inflationary fuel kind of things, you

know, people's affordability uh is not that that they can't afford a bunch more subscriptions. And I think what they found was they were were really dialing it back to the hardcore even before they got to the they started trying to essentially squeeze on yield when they got it all the way up to 30 bucks. And I can see why they did that because like unfortunately Xbox has had a lot of mixed messages from Microsoft over the past few years. And I think recently until the Phil um transition, Phil Spencer transition, there was a lot of kind of like you guys have really got to hit your profit numbers. And if you're going to be if you're going to be charged with hitting your profit numbers, you're going to be squeezing uh on margin and you're going to be trying to get more money off the uh people who are already paying you. And so I think that happened, but now I think um you know now Asha Sharma has sort of come in. Um, it's a bit more like that they need to show that Xbox is a good long-term business partly because I

think they are thinking Microsoft is thinking about what to do with it. And I think in order for them to potentially spin it off in the future, which I think is not out of the realm of possibility, they need to have the dynamic numbers like no one's going to want to buy it if if if their subscribers numbers are down 25% yearon year but everyone's paying 30% more, which is the direction I suspect they were going in. So, I think it's just just a lot of a lot of kind of
pacing this stuff back, particularly as I think they try and get more PC uh subscribers, which has been a real weak point for them throughout the history of Game Pass.
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the US and UK of it all, and this trend is is global. Like, it extends beyond video games. Over the weekend, Disney's terms of service for Disney Plus were amended so that ads could be added to any tier down the line, and they almost certainly will be. And it feels like what's happening is these streaming services that were chasing endless growth have found their ceilings and now are

transitioning to the period of well, if you want to continue growing, you need to find a way to bring in more money. Whether that is for this adup supported model or it's squeezing your most hardcore users a little bit more. The grand irony of it is this is when people would maybe push towards physical media, but there is less and less of that option. Do do you think that this is going to become the norm? Like do you think ads in video games will happen in a in a real way unlike you know when the Obama ads were running in um you know Burnout Paradise?
Yeah. I mean certainly ing in-game ads have not been done that well. There's been a whole history of there was a big boom in that as [clears throat] you say like 15 years ago when some ad companies got bought. One of them got bought by Microsoft. Um I think was it massive? Um and they did not really uh they didn't really go anywhere. And there was a question about obviously how these ads would work. I did see people have been throwing around a patent that that that Microsoft recently got but I think it's

an older patent that that was in suggesting that they might find ways to dynamically understand in game when certain things happen like when you complete levels and sort of uh stop. I don't necessarily think that's what they're going to do. I suspect if they're going to do anything, it's going to be you'll need to watch an ad before before booting a game for the first for the first time that session or something. I think it's going to be a little simpler. Um, but also this is I mean this is not clearly definitely going to happen but I I think it's the direction of travel here. I mean we do know that you know Netflix has ad tiers and I think Asha Sharma is not a historically a video game person. So, I think she's going to come in and say, "What other subscription services not in video games? What have they been doing and how's that been working for them?" And you clearly expand your reach. You know, I I honestly I might be mildly more interested in an ad supported cheaper cheaper tier of game pass. I think it might bring me back to the table, frankly, because I I unsubscribed somewhere around the 1999 to 29.99

transition. if they were going to they're going to give me one on my Xbox Series X that was $12.99 and had to watch some ads for playing games. I don't know. I'm I would consider it personally.
I I think that's the thing is the price still being high like $12.99 is still money. It's still like I would say a premium subscription uh for you to have monthly. And I am curious and I think you're right. We will see from Ashra Sharma a lot of things that we just have not seen in video games before and she has said as much that we have to find a way to change the calculus around what incentivizes people to get into games. I think this is it's certainly an interesting start, but I I I think the big challenge that that she and Xbox has ahead of themselves is Phil Spencer spent years kind of promising the moon, this magical future, your game will be everywhere and it'll it cost basically nothing and you'll get games day one and it's really hard to come in even if you can cut the prices down a little bit to

be like, "Yeah, but we're going to do less." Um, that's a hard position to be in. And I think I'm a bit of an edge case, so I want to be very clear here, which is my my main my main TV machine happens to be a Series X. Uh, and I happen to like playing lots of different games. I think the problem they've they they have and they've continued to have is like native PC users. I don't think most native PC users will be interested in a $12.99 subscription, and those are the people they really want. What I'm suggesting is they may get back a subset of the people who pieced out when Game Pass went too high, but that's still a subset of the same people they had originally. I don't think this is unfortunately a game changer for them.
Well, I want to talk about something very different which is the triple I initiative streaming showcase and the idea that we are now getting two of these each year and aa showcase is fascinating to me because it still does not have the brand recognition of something like the game awards but then again like what does but it is it's growing and it's getting bigger. So, I was hoping that you could tell folks

ahead of this one, which will be on October 8th, I believe, and this will mark the beginning of these twice per year showcases, what the showcase is and then also like what impact do you see it having on the games that appear in it versus all of the other showcases out there?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's an interesting one because it's my understanding, by the way, I know people might think it's kind of indie, but my understanding is if you want to have a game in there, it's actually not spectacularly cheap. It's sort of like in between. It's not 500 bucks to get to get your game in this. Uh so although it's called triple I mean it's it's sort of targeting yeah up market indies. They will definitely give people free slots, but really it's interesting because I think the folks from Evil Empire originally set this up and they're an indie themselves, right? And so what they tried to do is something that is pretty known nonsense and it doesn't really play into kind of obvious big IP. Although it does have now like they've announced in the new

one they have Dave the Diver I guess DLC probably announcement and Risk of Rain 2 and Windows. So they're starting to get some kind of more well-known indie titles. But their point in general and I've the point I've definitely agreed with is it's very noonsense. It's very like here's the trailers and they really try and set up as many bangers as possible, as much interesting stuff as possible. So, they're definitely sort of doing an India version. You know, they're never going to have Devil May Cry on there. Like that's all like the Keely kind of kind of era stuff, but but but they're setting up with some of the buzzier indie publishers. And they did really well. Like in our charts, we do we did those charts. They did really well in our charts of kind of, you know, wish lists added in the next seven days. uh on their recent ones because they had a bunch of interesting kind of buzzy a little bit kind of slop adjacent games a little bit kind or or maybe more rog light adjacent in some cases but they're they're games that people see them and they're like oh this is really cool and so they they've actually really punched

above their weight on on wish lists after announce but it's because they've been super picky and also it's not diluted. We'll see if the second showcase dilutes it some more, I guess, because
yeah,
that that's sort of the issue. But for now, it's it's not really been diluted. It's been quite specifically like let's just do all the hits kind of, you know.
There were a few things that you said there that I want to pick out. One is like what type of games get in there and two is like what is the business model of the showcase for the showcase itself and for the people who are creating the showcases. But first, let let's do the game thing. You mentioned Dave the Diver. Dave the Diver is published by Nexon is a humongous company. It is in no way um indie in the sense that we describe it and yet it has been kind of broadly brought into I would say like the indie label and you also mentioned Risk of Rain 2 and uh Chain Together is a game that is uh going to appear there and these games are they've already made

a fortune right they're already these proven commodities do do nonestablished indies really have a shot at a showcase like this cuz I know you have to pay for a slot and then there are those maybe those pre- slots, but is it kind of a a tier that you you graduate into as an indie developer after achieving success?
Well, yeah, it's tricky because I'm I'm looking at the top new wish list for the last showcase and there was um it was definitely a certain vibe. There was Graveyard Keeper 2, Don't Starve Elsewhere. Again, Don't Starve is a huge franchise, but Don't Starve feels kind of indie, right? Um, and and they did have that did they did have the Castlevania game in there, but I think that's because that's related to some of their companies. You know, they had Dead as Disco in there, which is VC funded, but again feels a little bit kind of like edgy, I guess. So, I I you know, and then they had a Warhammer game, but it was Warhammer Survivors, which is the Vampire Survivors licensed Warhammer game. So, I guess I guess they just sort of are quite specific about what they want. I think it is possible for you to

get in as someone who is less wellknown but I think they have been relying a little bit on there some kind of hot publishers who know what they're doing you know and so you know the Aros and also I noticed it was an interesting game but it was um it was an 11bit published game so again I think 11 bit is sort of their aesthetic as well so uh and this game let's see too deep to quit uh actually too deep to quit uh was not uh like officially it was kind of like uh friend sloppy co-op adventure kind of thing. So, there's some stuff in there that I feel like they just kind of
did did pick out, but but but they're really going for the the kind of stuff that gets a lot of wish list now, which which makes which makes a lot of sense. And I feel like a lot of the other showcases on the lower tier are often like they're going for um a couple of standouts, but then just people who will pay them, and that's got a different kind of vibe. [snorts]
This will this will never happen because it just does not sound good rolling off the tongue. We have triple AAA which is like our EA Ubisoft. I guess we had

quadruple A which is Rockstar for the people who use that. We have double A which is like the blood of Don Walker. Maybe it's time for just a A can be all of this. It can be a thing from a publisher like Dave the Diver. It can be a thing from a very successful indie uh from a Devolver Games. But it does feel like there is uh this kind of like space that has kind of broadly claimed the term indie but now feels more like a part of the business than it does like being indie really in any way other than them controlling their own fate which some of them do which I totally like that is the definition of it.
Yeah. And also I'd say some of the games are from indie publishers but were not that expensive. So, I don't think it's the case that that all the games in this look like they're indie, but they made $20 million because that would kind of suck. I I think I think there is some stuff in here that actually is from from smaller smaller, more dynamic publishers. But I do think, you know,

the idea of calling it AA, like I I all these definitions I' I've had people push back honestly on even what double A means. Like some people are like, well, double A needs to be less than $10 million and you know, and I think Blood of Dawn is 40 and some people are calling that double A. I think this is very unclear. But I think the branding they have is is reasonably smart. You know, the idea is it Yeah, it is. Or or the showcase is working and the idea that it's indie but kind of prestige or like a little bit higherend indie is sort of a a good idea. And and I do think the other thing I do want to just like remention is that they are very no and they're just like here's 30 trailers, we're out. And and I really appreciate that. I want to I want I I want to I want to dig into that. But first, I just want to recognize a very silly thing I did, which is I tried to negotiate in my head the difference between single A and triple I, which is maybe the most meaningless thing I've ever done. Um, but yes, the no

of it. So, part of the marketing campaign is basically like no host, no ads, just games. But it has a ton of bigname partners. Like basically everybody who has a storefront is involved. Nintendo, Xbox, YouTube, Unity, Humble, PlayStation, Steam, Twitch, Epic. Those are just some of them. Like there's there's more.
What is the biz model here for for this? Is there like big money to be had if the developers are paying and you have this support or is this just a bunch of people who are eager to help fund something and maybe share it on their social channels?
Yeah, I mean I feel like those logos were actually probably more like target platform logos. I don't think Nintendo has paid them any money for what it's worth. Um but it's always good to have cool cool logos on there. Um that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. Um I I I think that um yeah I mean I don't think this is spectacularly for profit but I I do think it's not like I had the impression frankly that it was a bit like evil

empire doing this in their spare time but no they have full-time staff members against this. So so I I think the answer is it's a little bit forprofit but really it's mainly um I think they just felt strongly there needed to be an alternative and I can sort of see see why. So um yeah so I would call it a little bit for profit. I don't think anyone um with the possible exception of you know Jeff Keley is making a ton of money on this and if I look at Jeff's production costs doing large of events in LA I'm not convict you know I don't I'm not saying he's making a ton of money either frankly like it's like like it's very inexpensive to do an all virtual showcase um but most but a lot of all virtual showcases
um are not spectacularly scalable from a uh from a actual revenue you're getting point of view And um because you know the the problem here and people are getting on the wrong end of this is once you got up to like 50 games it gets to be a lot for people to take in in one showcase and they'll tune out especially if you have a pre-show with like another

20. So I I I don't know. I think I think the business model exists here but the barrier to entry is quite low.
Yeah. Yeah. I I will say on the website big shout out to our partners. I do want to know more. I will say if there's any games journalists who are listening to this, I want to know more about how these things work. Uh but I want to keep this show moving. Um Roblox, this is a really fascinating story to me. What is going on from Roblox? Um at the Roblox developers conference, they announced at a keynote, quote, "Soon creators will have the option to make their games available as standalone apps across mobile, PC, and consoles with Roblox powering the technology and service underneath. fascinating and very vague, I would say, right now. So, can you speak to kind of the the vagueness and what we kind of don't know?
Yeah, I mean, the more I've looked into this, the more I'm going to say um this

was a little bit of a share price juicing opportunity for Roblox. Like I I have the impression I have not spoken to Roblox much more about this, but I I have the impression that this is definitely a details TBD announcement rather than anything they have like set up in a lot of detail. I mean, some of it works. I think like especially mobile like I think if you're going to do if you're going to do an Android app based on one of the existing Roblox games uh and the virtual currency in there is Roblox related like probably that's like but the point of this is this gets into all kinds of issues around how platforms work right so so um you know so when it comes to Steam for example um you know like I think free games on Steam historically have not done most of them don't do that well so and and Most Roblox games are free. So, uh, and then you have to pay for AP. So, there's going to be an obvious question there, which is, is Steam going to allow a bunch of free Roblox games onto the

platform if you can buy the virtual currency off platform uh, and then just like spend it there or is there going to need to be, you know, is Roblox going to be willing have to be willing to give 30% or 20% of their of their Roblox bought on Steam uh, revenue to Steam? I mean, I don't know. There's all kinds of [snorts] complicated questions around that that I presume are being negotiated now or soon. It
It's a bonkers story and commitment because if people thought the Epic versus Apple battle was ugly, this is getting at something so much stranger and weirder. And at the same time, like you might hear this and think, well, how is this that different from what Epic does with Unreal Engine? Epic has a storefront. Epic has an engine where you create a game in it and then you go and you can sell it somewhere else. And that sounds superficially true and that's like a part that I kept bashing up against. But what I'm realizing between

all of these companies is they're all doing things slightly different and then also trying to do whatever their competitor does. So Epic is seeing they're jealous of Roblox because Roblox has all these kids who are making user levels and they want to do that with Fortnite. And Roblox is jealous of Epic because they have their traditional storefront and also you have Unreal that can ship onto all these different platforms. And they all want to be the thing that does it all without seeming to realize they're able to do their part of it well because they're not having to answer the questions that the other one has to.
Oh, I think they realize I think they realize that. But I think
and yet they're still going to promise it.
Yeah. I mean I think this is the kind of thing I believe Roblox's share price did go up after these announcements. So some people were kind of like ah tell me tell me more you know I mean we'll see ultimately Roblox is main issue right now and they've been reasonably transparent about it is they've had a lot of young users and increasingly governments are not happy with young users being monetized uh because and

Roblox is getting to some extent lumped in with the social media kind of restriction issues. So, they're having to be a lot more specific about that stuff. And to their credit, they've been very proactive about it. But that does mean it's sort of limiting their funnel to some extent because you have to jump through more hoops if you're younger to play Roblox. Um or or you get access or you get access to less less of the content. You know, you you can get in. Yeah. Where I can see this working, if I'm like putting on my like real optimist glasses and it would require them to make some hard choices, is if Roblox truly does become more like an engine. I think of a game like Meta Chameleon, right, which is kind of figured out in the Roblox space and then graduates into the Steam space. And I think we're seeing more and more of this of kind of games and genres that get figured out in Roblox and then we see them on stream and they sell for actual retail value. And I get why Roblox would want to be a part of that. Like why have games figured out here and then go somewhere

else? But that would mean like a completely different approach to their e economics again like you mentioned with like freeto play versus this. I don't know. It just feels
Yeah. It's and it's I think actually what both Roblox and Fortnite may be concerned about and I would be if I were them is and I've talked about this a bit recently are people now treating individual friend slot games on Steam like a microtransaction
because if they are then then you're seeing you know like like Metro Chameleon you know I know that it's it was a little bit too complicated to do in Unreal Engine for Fortnite uh and and so that's one of the reasons why uh because they don't have the tools for that yet and they wanted to just monetize it standalone. So, they just used Unreal Engine and put it out on on Steam and and and Epic does get some upside from that, but not nearly as much as I think if it had been a big hit within within Fortnite. So, so I think I think the danger here is maybe because people have easy access to engines um effectively each friend slot game you

play to buy with your buddies uh and you know and these are older people often is um is a micro transaction of five to eight bucks, right? you just are paying that microtransaction to Steam to play a different game that happens to have similar controls.
Yeah. Yeah. I I I think that is very real. Uh I want to get to our our fourth and final, you know, big story of the week and we have more after that. But these this is kind of like a double whammy of stories about what is going on with AI in the creation of video games and how people are responding to it. And the first part of this is from marketing consultant Arnold Dusa. Is that the right pronunciation?
Yeah, I think I think Arno. Yeah. Arno Dusa. Yeah.
Uh who is I would say not a fan of the Steam AI gaming festival, which I worth clarifying here is not an official festival, but it's also not a festival that was like wasn't not not recognized by Steam. So can you tell folks a bit

about how this AI gaming fest promotion works?
Yeah, I mean basically Steam as we know is quite lace fair on the kind of festivals you can do. Uh but they are quite picky about what they publicize nowadays. So really someone has gone to Steam a company and said oh we want to do a festival for just games that I guess have AI disclosure. Uh and uh Steam has said okay you can do that. Uh here's your page. But they've not said we're going to promote it anywhere. And so and so my understanding of it is um I think I think the only places you might see it is like if you're in the festival the games pages themselves will have a little banner that says we're part of this festival right now. So so you will see it on some details pages for games but um you know but in terms of being featured I'm presuming by the way I haven't seen it on the front page. Steam could have decided to promote it. I haven't seen it. So uh basically Steam will decide which ones need get more more promotion. And so basically Steam has allowed this to happen but I think Arno in his article pointed out there

were some things around uh pay like payments to be part of the festival only small payments I think that were maybe against Valve's terms and conditions for this
a few weird things going on right because like you look at this and first off if this is an advertisement for what the power of AI can do in gaming it's a quite poor one you will not go to this and be like great I can't wait for this this future when you look through these games but even More damningly, it seems to be an advertisement for the sponsor of the festivals like AI educational programs that you can pay to be a part of which seems to break Steam's own policy around how you can use these events that they should not be promotion for paid things off platform. So why why is it up? Is it just a matter of
these things? Yeah, I'm guessing that if Steam reads my newsletter, and they do sometimes, and if they see on those post, they will go take another look at it and it might disappear like but you know, Steam Steam has so many of these

things to approve. And often they're approved at I suspect more like a contractor level than a senior Steam person level because they don't appear on the front page. And so I'm guessing some somebody tick ticked this one through. And and I would say you do you do have to be a listed developer or publisher on the platform. So, I'm guessing that the people who made this festival have somehow managed to do that. You can't just be like, I'm I'm Joan Blogs and I'm going to do this thing. Thanks. Like you like it always says in association with game company and the game company uh you can click through and see their Steam page. So, so there are some minimum rules, but for whatever reason, this company's managed to sort of deal with that. And you are right. I do feel like it was a bit of a use AI more in games than we can help kind of thing was my impression of it. Although I didn't look at it in a in a lot of detail. So yeah, I think it's definitely not the best um definitely not the best use of the platform, but I think again if Valve takes a look at this and decides I haven't looked recently and and and decides it doesn't make sense, then it will probably lead to spit.
Yes, I don't think this is what happened

at Valve, but I am tickled by the image of an automated or AI based process vetting all of these and then approving something like this only for a human to have to worry about it. The the other AI story of the week, and it contrasts really strangely with this, is this conversation around uh the independent game festival requiring disclosure for AI basically top to bottom. Not just like did you generate art or you know voice work, but did you use AI as a code helper? And this has caused kurfluffle would be an understatement. Um why are people reacting strongly to this? And what are they also learning about what other developers are doing now that this disclosure has been added?
Yeah, I mean I think um you know I used to run the independent games festival as part of GDC. So I think it's interesting and I think that it is really good to get good disclosure on this but for me uh code help in in AI code help is a

don't ask don't tell kind of situation in games right now. And uh unfortunately I actually don't know how much of a big deal it is. Like I don't think there's been big news stories about this, but there's definitely been some judges turning up on Blue Sky and saying, "I'm really uncomfortable in judging games that have any kind of AI in them and therefore I will not be judging quite a large percentage of the games in the IGF this year." So that's the real problem. Like a lot of people are using code helpers to uh to to code faster. It's not really a design thing. And so I think and in general, people have not liked to talk about that. And famously of course steam although steam's given some slightly confused uh responses on this but in general I think steam is saying if you use an AI code helper we don't need you to disclose it but I think um the deciding to disclose everything has really led to
yeah I think a bit of an unfortunate situation because for me um personally uh using an AI code helper to do mundane stuff which is mainly what it's used for is is not something I find unethical but

you know uh I will also say that Those AI code helpers are sure using giant data centers that are probably using a whole bunch of power. So some people some people that breaks the boundary for some people especially uh the kind of people who are like judging indie games festivals probably. So that's uh it's it's unfortunate and I'm not quite sure how to how to deal with that.
Yes, I I I do realize I am wearing my butler jihad now shirt. Uh, so I have a little bit of a clear stance, but I I I I my it's more complicated, I would say, than that. What I
what I like about this happening is like this is a conversation that needs to be had one way or the other because you're right, it has been a don't ask, don't tell. And it's like a weirdly open secret. One of the very first episodes I did at Post Games was with Frank Lance talking about AI and I think we've even talked about on this show like his takeaway is uh anybody you want to date

uh those are the jobs that you seem to be really interested in protecting and we talk about like gend like art usage or acting and with the code it's like well it's a little bit more complicated there and we don't talk about it but if we're going to like continue to move forward on this that conversation really needs to happen. Um, and it's going to be like ugly and contankerous, but I I think the the industry as a whole needs to work it out. What's so fascinating to me about these two stories though is one of these stories is about flagrant AI usage in service of something that I would say is like bordering on grift. um not not necessarily the games that are appearing in that, but this idea of like we created a festival and we want you to come actually like learn how to use our thing. And the other is it's a much more complex story about AI usage in indie development and like the many different ways people can use it and the different opinions that we have about all of it. And at the same time,

I think they can be received as just stories about AI and it all just gets mashed together. And I'm curious for you as somebody who's like talking to people who are making games, who are in the space, do you feel like that is getting worse or better? are is is all of AI just compressing and people are getting angrier and angrier and angrier around this conversation or is there like are people actually starting to talk through the complexities of it?
Yeah, I don't know. I mean there's a lot of lack of nuance in the space because um I think it is difficult like I'm I'm I'm in a friend group in a in a Discord with a bunch of people who I'd say are you know significantly more anti-AI than I am and I'm sort of like I'd say mildly anti-AI and um but what I found is I was talking to someone else who was in that group recently and he was like oh yeah I use AI all the time in my job to uh to do not coding and my colleagues do as well and I can't say anything in that

I don't know if anyone has got to be listening to this, but anyhow. Uh um yeah, but but I mean so I think we just get into a lot of issues here with um you know, I think there's all kinds of social acceptability. I'm also very nervous about,
you know, our AI overlords eventually deciding to do things like break all the internet because they think it's a good idea. I think there's all kinds of issues here. So I I don't know if it's possible to have a sane conversation about this right now. Um, but I do think it's good like what we're seeing is various um, manifestations of that conversation. And you're right, they're not the same thing. They're talking about very different things in very interesting ways. And I think we just need to um, yeah, keep looking at them.
Start unpacking it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, here's the thing that we can talk about that is good and fun, which is the video games. I want to hear about last week and I want to hear about this week. What is going on? What is popping off? what maybe didn't hit quite the the numbers that we or they had hoped.

Yeah. I mean uh so so last week it was interesting. There was one really big freetoplay game which I think is interesting which is this game an emo which I think I'm I mentioned last time which is sort of a a very slick uh kind of like uh gasher creature collector actiony game. Someone said it's a bit power world and it's a bit I think Infinity Nikki or something. So, so I think it's it's really nicely done and it definitely got some grumpy reviews, but I did go look at it because um you know because you have to pay money to get good things in the game because it's it's free. But I think um you know for for better or worse I think games uh you know the sort of gasher style of stuff I think is less manipulative freetoplay than a number of the other things happening in mobile freeto play right now. So, I'm in the sort of like
if if if someone loves a game and they're going to pay a couple of hundred bucks to to uplevel their character, then then sure. And it's one of those kind of games. Uh, you know, so I I'm so I I guess all I'm saying is those negative reviews to be expected, but it

did get to 128,000 CCU and also which is great. And also when I looked it on Friday, it was in top five grossing as well, so they're obviously getting people to pay. Um, so yeah, I don't know. So, that was the that was the big story from last week. The other stuff was like um there was a Trails in the Sky uh remake, which is a classic JRPG that got 12K CCU paid. There was a game called Dim Wraith, which I don't quite know how to pronounce, which I thought was pretty interesting, which is uh quite a a sort of like a um isometric ARPG, but it has like some Terraria vibes as well as some Diablo vibes. It's actually a really interesting game and I think a little underd discussed before it came out. So I was impressed to see it immediately go to 12,000 CCU cuz that implies it's going to sell couple hundred thousand copies first first week or something. So yeah.
Yeah. Um okay. This week this is where we do we can't actually play the Am I Living in a Bubble game this week because there are some big releases. So,

uh, for people who are unfamiliar, am I living on bubble is where I compare my Steam calendar versus what is actually trending upward that Simon knows from his data. Um, what I see in my calendar and what I think are going to be the games that will will appear in in the actual data that support this is we have two big releases. We have Silent Hill Townfall, we have Control Resonance. Um, we also have a game called Stick It to the Stickman. And that would be my other bet of a smaller game that is actually about to have like a big pop off. I will say that one was early access though, so that's it's a little bit different than what we normally do.
It's 1.0. Yeah. Um,
1.0 with 4,755 reviews at overwhelmingly positive.
Yeah. And and we need to do a better job in our charts of like um we do have information when games graduate, but right now in our in our charts, we don't have a what is graduating this week chart. Partly because uh there's no data

we can scrape actually. Like you only see it goes 1.0 when it goes 1.0. Uh so but but to your point, if it's in personal calendar, uh maybe we can scrape it. So I'll I'll I'll take a look at that. Anyhow, yeah, you you were right. Like we have control resonant, we have Silent Hill, Townfall are two of the big three. The third one is Graveyard Keeper 2, of course. And Graveyard Keeper 2,
okay,
is is looking really strong. It has a very strong demo right now, partly because um I'm going to mention this in in tomorrow's newsletter, but um uh it has a demo where um where where your progress rolls over to the full game. And that's becoming quite a trend now, like people like saying very explicitly like the game's coming out very soon and you can keep playing the demo when you buy the game. And I know that Square Enix has done that and some other people. So, I think Graveyard Keeper 2 saying that has really helped its um its its demo CCU, which was very high, like 25,000 CCU. So, so uh yeah. So, so I I think I think those are the big guys. I think the full the full release of the esports FC 27 is also this week. Um and

uh Happy Wheels just came out. The Happy Wheels is a classic flash game uh which people got very excited about. I I don't think it's selling. I don't know. It was doing It was doing fine. It's like a $5 flash game for 2010 which is finally coming to Steam and people love back in the day. But it well I would say one thing on that people forget like flash game nostalgia flash games were 15 years ago and so a lot of people who are older are like what nostalgia for flash games but yeah there's a ton of nostalgia for flash games. So that's something you should uh think about. I think
I I will also just uh shout out a few games that are coming up just so people have things to play if they want. There are two riffs on pinball coming out this week, Simon. Two in one week. Two big ones. Uh, philosophy and Fury Ball. There's a new game coming out from Watchit Eye Games as publisher, which is Nighthawks, which got through some very strange controversy where I think it was mislabeled as an adult game on Steam.

They've worked through that. There's also a new game from Luke Muscat of Fruit Ninja and Jetack Joyide, normal golf game. So on top of all of those bigger releases, there's just a continues to be a lot of interesting stuff hitting Steam and I if one of those games pops off in a big way, I wouldn't be surprised.
Yeah. And I was just looking there's 25 games launching this week with more than 50,000 wish lists. So, you know, every every week you get this. And I'm I'm looking at the top trending because we sort of have top top trending and followup velocity. Looks like Happy Wheels, EA Sports FC, Graveyard Keeper Control. Also a game called Wild West Pioneers that I have not been paying attention to, but I'm guessing uh it's like a city builder about the Wild West. Everyone loves the Wild West. So, that's another game that might end up might end up doing well. So, there's always new stuff. There's all the stuff that pops on the radar, right?
Oh my gosh. There's just looking at that and it's like, of course, this looks like a thing that would be a huge hit. I want to start wrapping things up. Uh,

and I before we do that, I want to hear from you. What is new or upcoming for game discover code plus and pro data users since the last time we chatted?
Yeah, we're going to start talking about this every week because because we do have some interesting stuff coming up. So, there's really two things. One is uh we we we did get a lot more older uh data in, especially if you're a prouser for wish lists. So, we have wish lists estimates now all the way back to uh the end of 2020 and it used to be like 2024. So, this is just exciting because a lot of people do wish list comparisons for unreleased games and it used to be before 2024 when we started monitoring it um in sort of real time. Uh we didn't have that, but we found a way to sort of port a lot of old information back in. So, that's something if you're a pro user that's cool. The other thing that I think I mentioned in passing is we're still working on our redesign which will be for everybody and we were hoping to roll it out this week but I think it's probably going to go to next week and that's just a nice sort of combination of all our data for pro users bringing our PC and console data together and for and and for our our plus users it will

make everything also look a little bit nicer a little bit slicker. So uh yeah so so that's the stuff we're working on right now. Yeah,
I love it. And then as always to wrap things up, my question of the week, which is we have a little bit of a bet going and I don't remember who was on which side of this bet. So terrible bet in that case, but uh it is about will there be counterprogramming for GTA 6? And I just wanted to check in because I think we're around the time where we would start to hear about this. Have you heard of any counterprogramming like at all around GTA 6? I thought we would hear more by now and it doesn't seem like it.
I mean, I don't think there's a lot. I'm actually going to go to that to that week. Um, uh, what what is the release date? Like the 14th or
November, it's like 18th. I feel like it's like just far enough away from the election to November 19th.
19th. Okay. So, I'm looking at that week on Steam because we monitor this. And just FYI, the only game uh there's only

a couple of games over 50K wish list right now that are listed as coming out on that exact week. Hilariously, one of them is Trees Hate You. Have you seen this game? Trees Hate You.
Yeah, it's it it's been mainly a meme game so far, but for those who haven't seen it, it's a game where you're trying to do a normal a normal kind of top down level and trees just keep attacking you. Uh and that's just like the whole hook of the game. So trees hate you. Um, I mean, I don't know how well that's going to do, but I I don't know if they've they've deliberately counterprogrammed that, but it's coming out November 16th right now, according to our data. So, yeah. And then the other stuff like there's there's a delivery game, Milky Delivery, that's we have listed in on the 17th right now. Uh, it's like a it's like a pet cow biking delivery game. But yeah, you're not seeing that that many people. I think the folks at Devolver have been having some fun with it, but I'm not sure that um anyone is aggressively counterprogramming, but to be honest, um I I I think you only really get one hit, one hit off your aggressive

counterprogramming, and people may be leaving it to uh like four or six weeks beforehand before they sort of go I mean, I guess we are sort of six weeks before, but yeah, I guess I guess we'll see. Maybe people don't care. You only really get excited news stories once out of that and I feel like we had some exciting news stories about it already. So I I'm not convinced it's going to happen again.
Yeah, I I will say if you look at the Steam calendar really starting around October 20th, it gets slim fast. Yeah.
Um the the big releases dry up very quickly, basically for a month going into GTA. So we will see. Uh, a best wishes to Godzilla Destroy All Monsters Melee Remastered. Um, a a brave soldier in this war daring to release on November 3rd. Um, but yes, we we'll see how it goes. But that that is an episode we talked about a whole lot today about

where things are and where the future of video games will be. Simon, where can people go if they want to get more of this sort of stuff?
Yeah, I mean gamesiscover.co on on newsletter, which is where you'll get most of the extra information, goes out twice a week at newsletter.gamediscocover.co. So, go check us out there.
Perfect. Well, that is a wrap on things. I am your co-host, Chris Plant. I guess if you like more of this, you can always listen to me on Postgame. I'm just doing a plug, a free plug right here. Yeah, do it. Simon, save me for myself. Please take us out.
Yeah, it's it's been awesome, everyone. Thanks, and we'll chat again next week. See you later.