How Emerald City Games Stayed Independent And Kept Shipping

And we were developing in the basement together. We had our families upstairs and we were just finding a way to make it to make it work. We created our own IP and we built a game around that and we really went in there with ignorance is bliss.
So here we are, PocketGamer.biz podcast, Jamie and Derek. I was reading your backstory. I love your backstory. I was just thinking you know, like sell it to Netflix.
[laughter]
Right? Right? You got two cousins, right? And in a basement, starting in a basement in 2008. That is phenomenal. And then the success since then, I mean fast forward we're talking about you know, Star Trek, Tomb Raider. This is serious stuff, right? The basement days, what were they like?
They were a lot of hard work. We started in 2008 out of our basement, the two of us. We actually moved in together at one point. So we lived together in the same house.
Mhm.
And we were developing in the basement together. We had our families upstairs and we were just finding a way to make it to make it work. It was actually a

lot of fun. We basically worked all the time. So we would go upstairs, have food, go back downstairs and just work. We were working
Yeah.
um on at that time it was a browser-based MMO called Secret Seasons and then we moved into mobile from there. That was really our first sort of experience with mobile and sort of paved our way as a mobile developer from there. Um but at one point we had uh accumulated about eight different developers in the basement with us. So they didn't live with us in the same house, but
Yeah.
um we sort of did what we needed to do to survive and that's how we managed to make it work as a as a studio that was just starting to Well, we bootstrapped everything. So everything that we we did was sort of from the ground up. Um no outside funding or anything like that. We just found a way to like make it work and eventually we sort of outgrew the basement and then we moved into an office in near Vancouver.
Yeah. And and I'm just trying to also get my head around not just being a basement success story, but also understanding mobile. That was Those

were early days. You know, we're still here at places here like GDC telling people, "Hey, mobile games." Which studio that said, "You launch a game, you launch it on mobile, right?" And that was like earth-shatteringly important. And this was probably at least 5 years previous that she thought about mobile. Why mobile? What was so expec- So special about it that got you?
Our very first game was a browser-based game. So, we're already sort of in that realm. And we were building it in Flash. We moved into mobile, and then we also moved into the Unity engine. We'd sort of been, like I said, in that browser-based space, and mobile was like a logical next step. We could see a lot of the success that other games were having by moving into that space, and and we really wanted to experience that and develop for that as well. So, our first game was a tactical RPG, and and um we There I think there was a game called Battle Nations that we took a lot of inspiration from. And we were wanting to put our own spin on that style of game. And so, um we created our own IP, and we built a game around that. And we really went in there with Ignorance is Bliss. So, I

think we went in there with wanting to use the mobile devices. So, at that time we didn't really understand a lot of strong mobile practices. I think we learned that along the way. A lot of our background was in more traditional like AAA development. We've always been pretty open-minded with like development and and and and everything in general. So, I think for us we looked at mobile as um a real learning experience. So, the the tactics game that we made people loved it, but you wouldn't really say it's a mobile game necessarily. It worked on touch devices, but I think as we as we grew we we were able to institute more um really strong like features in the game that that served that platform a lot better.
So, yeah. I mean, talking about growth, I mean, more than a decade in the industry, obviously. I've got here over a dozen titles shipped. Going to be more, which is really awesome. I mean, just as we speak, um what has allowed you to stay independent while shipping games, you know, keep shipping those games. The two don't usually match, right?

I think for us it's more about I think how we kind of work as a studio. Me and Derek kind of work differently than maybe the rest of the studio does cuz we started just the two of us together we still work the same way today as we did back then I would say as well so We have our late nights just like some of the people do but for the studio we kind of try to manage that a little bit separately.
We have a lot of I think anybody can be independent. It's like you decide if you're going to stay independent or not based on what's happening to you and a lot of people want to get off the roller coasters when they're up and down like you might have really difficult years where you're like I just can't do this anymore and you might have you might have opportunities where people want to buy your studio and you need to turn that down to stay independent as well and that's one thing both Jamie and I are completely aligned on is like we don't care about all that other stuff. We're just going to keep building things the way that we want to build it. We really like making games with the people that we bring to our team and that's like kind of all there is to it.
[laughter]
Then I'm going to rally for you guys. I

mean Emerald City when I read this when I read this I thought oh who is this and like oh man this is a great story because you know, talking about from Sacred Seasons as you said to licensed titles Star Trek, Tomb Raider, these aren't small names. What is the line that runs through this because you're indie, you're building what you want, you'll be releasing what you want. We'll talk about that in a bit as well, right? Launching what you want but there's got to be like a line that goes through this you know like this is what defines us. This is what defines our games. This is what defines what we will and will not build.
I think it's a balance. I think everything is balance and you're always solving problems. I think the studio survival is like the most important thing so then it's like what do you do with these opportunities as they come so I didn't watch Star Trek but like I love the idea of turning it into a turn-based RPG where we can put our stamp on like the character models and like really make something of high quality. So, I think we we look at all opportunities and then we find ways to like put our stamp on that and then that seems to be

like the sort of through line. It's like we're we're very a very creative bunch that likes making quality stuff and we try to apply that to all the the things that we're doing.
And you should. There's a business in that. I think that is so inspiring. Because you know, quality stuff. I mean, even Emerald City, it's like it's like recognizably Emerald City. Not just the Not [laughter] not just the t-shirt and the swag, but like, you know, it is that that level of intention, really, in your world-building approach and everything. I mean, very distinctly visual, as well. How important is that as cuz so many companies I'm interviewing, they're like, "Hey, you know, we got to build a brand. We have to have a presence. We have to do something that defines us." I mean, looks like you did it.
We try. So, my background's in art and animation, so I I sort of come from that that department and it's very important to me that we have very strong creative. And I think I also live vicariously through the people that we bring on at this studio, as well. Um but I love the idea of like developing our own worlds, having our own look, like having things that people

can identify with our studio. Um so, we do a lot to try to um recruit like really strong individuals and then and then retention is a big part of that, as well. It's not even that we try to do it in a very authentic way. Like both Jeremy and I like to play games with the team and really be part of it like on at the ground level. And so, I think there's a certain like down-to-earth or humbleness that comes with like our studio. We are very unconventional, so we do things very differently in some ways than a lot of studios. Like we're sort of a little punk rock in that way, but I think that um uh people know what they're getting um and it's up to them whether they want to stick around for that or not.
Sort of making me wish I was a developer I could [laughter] join you guys. I could join you guys. I'd do it in a heartbeat. Jamie, I read, you know, you built the core systems um yourself, you know, and that's the kind of technical foundation that shapes a studio and shapes what you do, but that early experience, you know, how did that shape how you look at, you know, system

scalability, architecture?
I think as the tech person, I kind of built a lot of the tech to be used for long-term. And so, the tech that we used back in Flash isn't still used today, but I think kind of the foundation of it that we built has evolved over time and like project by project um that tech is just evolved to be better. The tools is a big part of our our studio as well. So, like Derek has the animation background, I have the tech background, but I kind of recognize like I love tech, but I recognize
and science.
[laughter]
There we go.
But our I do kind of understand that our studio is a very like art-heavy and animate animation-heavy studio where that's kind of our bread and butter. So, I think the tools that we built for the art team to kind of help them do their work kind of more efficiently and the pipelines that we built for them are super important for us as a studio.
Yeah. Chris, games aren't just games that you're shipping, right? You know, it's it's live updates, it's events, it's uh turning the systems uh understanding

player behavior. You have to listen and work and adapt that. I mean, how much of this has changed in the way your team works, you know, this is the operational side and that of course has also evolved with the studio.
Yeah, I think we just have a lot of learnings as we go. So, the the big one from there that I that I put a lot of value in now is like retention in live servicing games, which is something we've grown to appreciate more and more, I think, as the studio has grown. And it's really affected all the projects we do. So, we sort of come into it with that mindset now. And I think we have a nice balance of like we want to make games. Like I'm a mobile game player myself, so I sort of know what I'm looking to get out of product, and I think we come at that from a let's let's find a nice balance between, you know, monetization, retention, just
Yeah.
what the value a player is getting out of that. So, um but when it comes to that, it's I think the long-term value that players are getting out of mobile games that is is really where we put a lot of our focus and thinking on when we're when we're building games and and features.
And how does that thinking evolve? I

mean, it must also be at some level more systematic than it was at first, you know, it's it's across all of the titles, you know, there are things that hold them to together, something they have in common, commonality, a common thread, and probably the same when you think about live ops, about what you're doing, those retention mechanics to get the right players and to keep them playing. What would you say is at the core of what you're doing?
Kind of like you described, I think you can apply that to a lot of different
Yeah.
games that you're developing, um and then the the the sort of creative aspect is like, okay, well, how do you tie that into your game? How do you make it work? How does How does a guild system work in your game? How do the events for that that that guild work where you can do some pretty clever stuff like our game Line of Fire: Darkmoon. Like, we did some really cool stuff with the IP that we had and sort of like finding ways to immerse the player in the in the in the world in the game that they're playing, and and I'm always focused on it from that sort of lens. I want to find ways to like do these things which I know are really

important, but do them in a way that feels like good for the game that you're playing, and uh I think each game sort of Yeah, brings its own You're you're looking to apply these things across the the platforms, but um
But yeah,
Yeah.
it's interesting because what you're doing is you're looking there for the inspiration, and then there's something out of that that I wouldn't say becomes the wash, rinse, repeat of it, but it is keeping that in mind, that's the core, and then there are elements on top of that. Can you maybe share what that is for, you know, for our audience who's saying themselves, you know, I need to be individual, but sort of like with cars, right? You know, you want to be a custom, but you have mass mass customization that at the core of it, still the same chassis, still the same motor, still the same stuff. Looking great, obviously, but driving relatively the same. What's it like here?
Uh well, I I think that's part of the fun of designing the games is thinking about how you'll sort of repurpose that stuff in the games. Like our Storm

Legends game, we would design a whole system for that to to work, and then designing characters uh that are going to take advantage of that system, or like find ways to get value out of that with the with the um the sort of collection aspects of these games as well. With Darkmoon as well, like we had a whole guild god um guild event system, which really tied into the IP as well. We didn't really take it from another game. We just sort of like worked with our IP and
It always had to work with the game. It wasn't just like, "Hey, we're going to have a competitive element here, and we're just going to like duct tape it on."
Well, I'll break up our tech for that as well, Vic. I'll get our tech in there a little [clears throat and laughter] bit.
Yeah.
But, uh we did build that system for Darkmoon, our our event system, to be kind of I don't know, versatile to use for our future games. I'm just thinking back to like I don't know if you know if you remember the Sacred Seasons events, but they were just like totally organic. It's like, "Oh, what events should we run today?" And we just built it
Okay.
And totally different than how we do

things now, where it's everything is planned out literally months in advance.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, now yeah, I just we have this system in place where we're just ready to go for events before the game's even started.
And see, that's so important because now the events are the game. I mean, it is about that longevity. You want to get all you can out of the title that you make. When I think about it, um you know, tournaments, social engagement loops, everything to keep people coming back, keep the players coming back. How do you think about designing those systems now that create longer-term engagement?
Tournaments is a great example of something where um it has to be scalable because with tournaments you have so many different players involved. It has to work on basically a global scale compared to like if we're running like a Christmas event where it's just like okay you got to whatever defeat a Christmas boss or collect some Christmas enemies that's very individual so it kind of works for everybody but you don't have to think about it from like a server architectural point of view of how do we scale this or to make it work

for everybody. So from there like we've had to level up ourselves on how can we build these systems to be um global and be super efficient and just work um
Yeah.
without crashing
Yeah.
taking down the game so
Sounds like a simple one but really tough.
Yeah.
Our first game Sacred Seasons we originally launched it on Facebook. We thought oh this is going to be a huge hit on Facebook. Um we talked to a few publishers about it. We only spent four months on the game and it came out and it completely flopped. I mean we were sort of like devastated for a minute and then we're like okay well let's just release it on Kongregate which at the time was sort of a flash games portal site and and uh the interesting thing about Kongregate is it's very organic so you just appear in the rankings and then based on how people are playing the game you don't move up or down it and so from that that's really what got our start as a studio as we put Sacred Seasons it was a sort of backup at the time. We ended up being really good friends with the owners from Kongregate and we were one of the premier games on that but we only did it through the community and the engagement that we had with the

community and them liking the game and we just watched our rank go slowly up up up until it was one of the like top five games on there. So very early on we sort of understood the power of community and the importance of community and and we've tried to sort of carry that. I think the problem with us developers is we just don't have a lot of time to engage with the community. I wish we had more time to do it but we're like so focused on development all the door Um but I think we've always seen like the value in it.
We were talking about, you know, don't always have the time to do everything. And the same thing happens when it's about, you know, the back-end infrastructure, the live ops, you know. How do you balance focusing on creativity while still delivering, you know, those types of features? Because studios want to build, small studios in particular, they want to build deeper experiences. What's your advice?
On the creative side of things, we put a huge focus on there. So, I actually do all the head hunting myself at the studio. I go out and like find people that I think would be really good at the studio. And we try to build like the

best creative team that we can. It's actually very important to us. Um, and so through that we've we've developed a lot of our own pipelines internally as well. So, our creative team, um, it's run by a guy named Tony Says, our art director, um, and he's really helped establish like an amazing culture on the creative team, but also like, um, like I said, a really strong pipeline where we can get things done very quickly. And that helps with publishers and and and future work as well, right? Where we can execute on these things and you sort of have like an understanding there. But we try not to sacrifice too much on the quality. Like there's always got to be a balance there, but I think for our team, the quality is really important. And so we've always been in Unity, so we've developed tools in Unity. That's part of the pipeline as well as like knowing how these things are going to work and being able to to leverage that.
We kind of cater to the art team. Um, we want to make sure everything is super efficient for them. So, leaving things that might not not even be art related for them, such as, uh, just being able to pump out builds consistently. We can see it in Unity, but we want to see it

on device. All the tools that we build for them, uh, the live op stuff that's been evolved, uh, each project. Um,
Even like, uh, shaders, like we'll create shaders for like a tune look for a game and then maybe use it again for another game for something else or tweak that thing. So, you start building this library of assets and tech and stuff that you can I don't know if we fully appreciate that we're doing it, but like it's always there that you can leverage. It's a library of stuff and and I think we maybe even take it for granted. It's not that we really set out to do that, but it's just part of the benefit of having lasted this long that we've got all this
also being so efficient cuz that's it exactly, you know, you want to be able to keep the quality. Well, if you're going to do that and be efficient as well as creative, well, then you need the tools. Probably people are going to contact you, Jamie, and say, "What did you build, Can [laughter] I build Can I build something, too? Give me some tips." Which brings me to tools, right? Because I'm leaning in a little bit on the news here. We've heard about Skills and Beamable. We understand what that means. You know, there's a push towards

integrated platforms and that's what we're seeing here, but you know, from the perspective of you two, you know, what does that actually change for a studio when you've combined competition systems, back end, live ops, infrastructure, the works, right? What does that do or what does that realistically change?
Before you get into the tech, I know for our team cuz we've done a little bit of work with Skills already and and it's been such a um weight lifted off to have a lot of that stuff integrated in the product already where, like we said, we do focus a lot on the creative and like the production aspect of it and at least it seems to have taken a lot of that off of our plate where these things are still extremely important for our product. Um and we uh can spend that time on other areas and still get a lot of value in what we're doing, so.
Yeah, and I think well, you kind of nailed it there and we've spent well, over 15 years building up our tech to be super efficient and all of a sudden Beamable just comes along.

[laughter]
That's all we need. It just kind of pisses me off that I even spent time building this tech, so it But seriously, it does make our our lives like way easier. A lot of stuff
that is to your benefit going forward. Look at it that way, right?
Well, yeah, exactly. I think part of it too is our tech is our tech, so that also comes with like the management and the maintenance for that tech where that's now all taken care of by
That's true. It's never set it and forget it. So, even though you made it and you're like, "Oh, it's my baby." It's like Let's Let's go to a platform. Let's partner with a platform. There's sense There's sense to that. Yeah, you can appreciate Now, you know the pain of maintaining it because it's always it's always in the maintenance of it.
Yeah. Exactly.
And I was looking a little bit under the lid. I'm really excited about the analytics you're going to get because I look at gaming, you know, because of what it is, it has to be a business. You have to succeed. And there you have to have the data. You have to like see visually where people dropping off. Yeah. Visually, what am I going to do about this data? Maybe a little bit of AI to make a suggestion like, what am I going to do if this is what's going on?

Analytics is a good point as well because uh every project we have has analytics in it. And with so many SDKs that we put into our projects, right? So, uh you have your analytics SDK, your publisher SDK, you have your payment SDKs, all go in.
Yeah.
Beamable and with with the uh Skills Open SDK, it's all-in-one now, which makes it super easy. You don't have to like set up your dashboards for your analytics anymore. Beamable just takes care of all that for you, which is
Mhm.
just takes all the work away from us, which is super nice.
What does it also do? I'm just curious because when I talk to developers about, you know, SDK, they're talking about weight, maintenance, you know, like the the heavy stuff. And then you think, well, if it's bundled, doesn't that mean you have different opportunities, maybe different markets? You know, I'm always into rest of world. Huge market, huge appetite, but, you know, it has to be light, right? Does that make any difference there? I'm curious.
Well, yeah, if you're saying like as far

as having it all-in-one SDK, uh well, for us it's been super nice. Um every SDK has its own issues.
Yeah.
Certain SDKs have other issues in different than other SDKs.
play nice with each other, the SDKs.
together and you have an SDK working and all of a sudden you put in a different SDK and all of a sudden this SDK is broken. So,
Yes.
um, we've been through many, many SDK issues over the years and I guess if you bundle the SDKs all into one, um, which Skillz has done with the OpenSkillz DK, they've kind of fixed those issues ahead of time for us. So, we just put in the one SDK, ideally with all those issues already resolved.
So, Emerald City, obviously, explored its own IP, big franchises, different genres. You guys are on fire.
We really enjoy making games and we really enjoy being very flexible with the genres that we take on and and the even the idea of like original IP versus our own IPs, um, sorry, original IPs

versus like licensed properties. So, I think in general we're fairly open-minded with as a studio and we're we're sort of looking forward to different, um, different games, but we've got stuff in the works as always, uh, and they are in different genres as well and I think we're always looking to bring on new talent and keep building up our team and make great games together.
Well, then, I'll be watching for that.
Thank you.
[laughter]
Derek, Jimmy, it was awesome. Absolutely. I wish I could develop and join your team in a heartbeat. Thanks so much.