Evolution of the Gaming Product Manager in 2025 + AI

Hey folks, this is Joseph Kim from GameMakers. I'm really excited to share something special with you today. A panel I was part of during the product live ops symposium hosted during GDC on the evolution of the product management role in games. It was moderated by Tim Hong, live ops practice lead at AWS and joined by Solomon Lter from Clevertap. Both of these guys join me today. Welcome guys. Thanks for having the convers. conversation brought together a super sharp group of panelists including PM leaders from Scopely, Scipplay, EA and more. If you're a product manager, live ops lead, or just trying to understand how product thinking is evolving in this rapidly changing industry, especially with AI entering the picture, this is for you. After the panel, stick around. I'll be back with Tim and Solomon for a candid de debrief. We talk about what surprised us, what's changed even since GDC, and what takeaways still matter most today.

Thank you all for joining us today. And I have a really awesome panel here moderated by my friend Tim Hong of AWS for games live ops practice lead friend client partner all the good stuff we have JK from game makers Leela games my buddy Joseph Kim give it up for Joseph we have Lee Horn of Mountaintop Spectre Divide formerly Scopely all-around badass please give it up for Lee Horn We have Orin Debbie of Scyplay that had the number one social casino game I believe in 2024. Please give it up for Orin Debbie from Scyplay, ladies and gentlemen. And last but certainly not least, we have Dave Dong from Apex Legends, um, Respawn Entertainment, EA, senior

director of product. Please give it up for Dave Dong, please. And you know who I am. I'm going to be the one non-game maker on this panel coming from the live ops game tech provider perspective. It's good to have you all. I'm going to turn over to our moderator, Tim Hong. Hey everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um so we'll get right into it. Um so we're going to focus on three key themes throughout our panel to kind of help all of you. Hopefully most of you are practitioners um or learning about PM and why it's so important. And so when we crafted this together, we thought that a really good way to kind of think about it is to talk about the shifts we're seeing in the industry, followed by if you're building out your product management team, like what do you need to do differently? Um what is the impact of AI and other tools to that? And then lastly, how are you going to survive or possibly thrive when it comes to uh your craft going forward. Um so just some kind of like fun facts,

right? So when we're thinking about like gaming, let's call it five or 6 years ago in 2019. At the time, Fortnite was only 2 years old and the big debate at that time was battle royale. Is that like a fad or is that like a real thing, right? Uh Apple Arcade was just released and we were wondering if premium and premium was coming back and that was right before we all had the big COVID boom, right? And so we all thought, hey, that's great. Now we fast forward to 2025. There's definitely a hangover from COVID from all of us, you know, running our games. Um, we're seeing large publishers basically put out games, new IPs, shooters, uh, RPGs, people leaving, um, large publishers, starting their own thing, and maybe it not working out so well. We're seeing a lot of M&A activity, and we're also seeing a change in function of how PMs run. So from an industry perspective um want to start with uh JK and just kind of get some of your thoughts on AAA development and how

you see it. You know what's the current state of affairs right now? Sure. So I mean I personally can't speak too much in terms of the AAA game development sort of practice just because I'm more from the mobile side and and um I I would say like the quality games that that we make probably don't go to that extent. But I think I can kind of comment in terms of some of the trends that I'm seeing trends right because I think what we are seeing is there's like this current wave of macro trends that are impacting the industry in fairly significant ways right so I I think uh some of these trends um you'll be familiar with for example one we've seen with the proliferation of like you know uh video on demand as well as live operated games that are becoming increasingly popular there is an issue with respect to an attention economy and getting attention especially if you're launching new game has become increasingly difficult. I think the second macro macro trend that we've seen is we've seen the rise of China and

we've got you know extremely big budget huge teams that are working 996 and it's very very difficult to compete against some of these Chinese teams and I I think what we're you know sort of faced with the the other thing that we've seen is we've also seen a resurgence in live ops with games like Brawl Stars which has uh essentially been able to like 6x their revenue last year and so there's this fundamental al um issue today with how do you how do you succeed in new game development because it's very very challenging. So that's like the first wave of macro and there's a lot of other things there that we could talk about but not to bore the audience with all the specific nuance and details around that. So that's the first wave that's hitting. And now just as we're feeling the effects of the f first wave, we're now being hit by the second wave of AI. And I don't need to go into we can probably go into more details in terms of that, but what we're seeing is an increasingly challenging environment for being successful as a product manager. And there's a lot of

ramifications of the the macro trends that I've talked about. Happy to go into more detail if you'd like, but those are some of the things that I'm seeing. I'm smiling because like if there's one audience we can nerd out on, it's probably these guys because they live it every day. So, I mean I that's why I think it's kind of funny. Um, but Lee, like let's kind of expand upon that a little bit more, right? Like if you're running a live service game now and for some of these that have like longer shelf lives, like what are some of the things that you know game teams and are have to think about differently now in 25, right? If you have a game that's been around for quite some time, what are some of the different ways you have to think about it versus like five or six years ago? Yeah, I can give it from the let's call it indie developer perspective. So, I worked on um Apex uh I was head of product pre-launch as well as through uh first year of live service and now I was working on a tactical shooter called Spectre Divide. Um and very similar strategies at different times in in the market. So our core

strategy on Apex was create a battle royale with characters slight differentiation underelling what was changed but you know same core game as PUBG add characters spectre divide is a core tac shooter with twobody gameplay which we call duality the change over time though that was a fiveyear difference is that in the market there are many live services now that have been around for uh five even 10 years and what that's doing is it's creating a really hard competitive environment to compete with. So all of those games have years and years of credibility in terms of uh at least for PvP shooters, really high quality matchmaking, you know, great Andy cheat, all these things that when you are now trying to make a new game into that environment, uh it is much harder to compete with. So sort of my recommendation having just lived this is if you are thinking about a competitive PVP game do not go up with an incumbent that has been around a long time because you need winner you basically need to be the winner of the entire market to have enough matchmaking

to make fair games. So what I would do what I suggest you know out of these learnings is either make games where uh they're less of like a fighting game or you know need to be even matches. So, make games where mismatched teams can really have fun and compete well or um have a really good IP with your game or just try to avoid PvP altogether. I would just, you know, it's it is very hard and if you're going to do it, you really need an edge. Like a small innovation is not enough. For Apex, it was a relatively small innovation relative to the market, but no uh battle royale live service had been around for a long time. so you weren't going up against years of ah I there's a great game here. Um so yeah, that's what I would watch out for and um and just really think about if u if your game needs to be highly competitive, try to find other ways to succeed if there's a incumbent that's been around. Yeah, I I I think uh we hit on an interesting point around player expectations like

changing uh um and I remember uh one of the PMs I worked with at Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes, we had a discussion that some player expectations are immutable. Like players go into a game kind of expecting something even if that's not what it could be. Uh David, I kind of want to throw to you now that you actively work on Apex. Um, what are your thoughts around changing player expectations? Um, yeah. What do you think? Yeah, I'm going to try to tie it back to something JK said earlier. So, when he mentioned China, right? I think the it's what has happened now is not that new problems have arised as much as they have gotten much worse. So, you see like Marvel rivals, right? Like what the hell are they doing launching four new characters in a season? It's insane, right? Like we couldn't keep up with a new legend every single season and we they're launching four in one season. It's it's absolutely crazy. So that is causing a big massive um has risen that has raised the expectation of players, right? And so in order to compete, you have to meet players where they are.

Games like Fortnite and COD, they just have an onslaught of content. And so for us, we're really struggling with this challenge now of how do we meet players where they want where they need us to be so they're not going to other games. Um, second thing as well is with the giant influx of free-to-play live service games, again, uh, competition for time, right, across entertainment and games. And so, we haven't figured out the strategy yet, I would say, but we're challenging a lot of our sake of cows. So, I think the good news with all this is this is where it makes PM, I think, very valuable, right? Because we're able to come in, help do proper assessments on what features are driving value, which ones aren't, what does adoption look like, etc., and get really surgical with the limited resources that we have. And so, um, yeah, going back to the freeto play and and just the switching costs being extremely low, we also are really taking a look at things like um, in in live service back in the day, right? It was about dominating and monopolizing people's time, but do you need to do that? Like what if you had a game that you retain for a long time, but you're not driving that like 100

hours of play in one day, right? What does that look like? And so we're really challenging ourselves in this way to understand and try to solve the problem of retaining players long term but not necessarily dominating every single second of their lives so they can go watch Netflix, play other games, and then ultimately come back to Apex. Yep. We are in a uh multi-screen world for sure. Um Orin, I kind of want to talk to you, right? I mean, we we can't have a panel without talking about AI, right? So like this is now a thing. It's not a fad, right? But I guess the question to you is like it can make production faster. Um it not necessarily is better but I guess your thought like what is your thought on what is hype versus what is real for game development right now? Yeah. So thank you. Um I think uh yeah it does make production faster because the adoption is mainly around efficiency.

The way that I see today, most of the users that uses AI is using it as a something that helps them do things faster rather than completely replace the the the pro the processes that they are doing. So, uh I know that there are a lot of talks about transformative uses of AI, but we are not seeing it yet. Um so the the things that are going on today and we have started to adopt is around the art um creating characters um using AI. We saw like 40% increase uh using AI tools uh to create the collectibles and all kinds of other features that we're using. Um code assistant is also something that uh is greatly used. LLMs uh specifically for product managers doing CI doing PRDS, wireframes, all of

the heavy stuff that uh you know takes a long time to do. Um we see it uh being used by AI and the things that are just stocks right now and not it's like doing a complete game play. Mhm. We are not I see tries of doing it but I I I haven't seen something that can match what the person can do. Yeah. Um we had um Gartner uh share some some uh framework with us over at AWS I think is great is uh when you think of AI there's return on effort or like employee productivity. There's return on investment which is like you know making a uh bottom line process better and faster and automated. And there's return on future, which is like what you're saying, which is like, you know, hey, make a game with one click. And I think it's it's it's it's good to hear that return on effort is a valid use case to, you know, make our our jobs better,

right? So, thanks for sharing that. Um, I kind of want to move now to talking about like building and scaling PM teams. Um Solomon, you you you had a bit of a thought here that you wanted to share. And uh one thing that I think when we were preparing talking about this was that there still seems to be kind of a difference between how product managers are perceived or even used within uh console and PC studios versus mobile uh studios. Solomon, I I know you had some thoughts on that. Did you want to share with us? Yeah, full disclosure, I'm a I don't know 15 16 year mobile guy, right? So, my biases are very, very mobile. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what console folks do. Um, and the things I've heard about the console world, I' I've heard through osmosis and learned that from friends of mine in the console world. But those folks moved from mobile into console, right? Because I think that, you know, just to kind of throw this out there, despite what the market is, I believe that mobile PMs are very soughta because

of their skill set, the way they're able to act on data, just generally they the way they work. I think the console makers want that, right? The challenge is um as I understand it and and have spoken to folks who have told me is working at a large organization in the console space, you're really a part of a freighter. It's a battleship that's driven by a lot of tribal knowledge, a lot of amazing talent, very emotional artists. Um, but the DNA is different than what you have in mobile. You think about g the way that console evolved, it really evolved out of game. Um, it evolved out of movies. So, we're talking about big waterfall massive projects that always have scope creep and take a long time. And if you think about mobile, mobile of kind of it came out of tech, right? It came out of companies like Facebook, it came out of companies like Zingga. And so it's very very different uh DNA related and there's been some cross-pollination between the two, but very very different. And I think that

mobile PMs expect to be able to act on data really, really fast. It's kind of back to the old Zuckerberg adage, move fast and break things. Even if it's the wrong thing, keep iterating until you figure it out. I think you have to do that with the mobile audience. You have to do that when you're trying to monetize and you're experimenting with things. And so the folks that I know, you know, some folks I know that have gone over have expressed that, you know, that um shock about how hard it is to move quickly and act on that data. It's not like those console folks don't have the data. They got tons of resources. They got big data science teams. Um I'm sure they're doing a lot of cool stuff. It's just really hard to act on in an environment like that that is fundamentally not agile and probably never will be because of what the nature of what console is. Yeah. Um I know that some of the a lot of you up here have worked both in mobile and PC console. Did you guys have any other insights you wanted to share on kind of the differences you see culturally wise or Yeah, I I would just

I've worked on Monopoly Go to Apex and the thing that I noticed the most different is console games, PC games have a long history of succeeding without product managers or without without data insights. So there's an internal resistance to bringing those things in. In fact, uh, in the early days of Apex, as we were talking about getting data engineers, uh, and data analysts, one of the senior designers was like, what would they even do all the time? Like, what could one possibly do? They won't have anything to do uh, for an entire year. And we ended up having uh, at the time we launched like six full-time analysts and product managers and all that. But, you know, that was born out of making billion dollar successful games without it. So there's a whole education process that needs to happen in PC and and console. It is happening but it's slow. It's taking time and it's like kind of born out of results versus mobile was started more data first. So it's it's natural and just a yeah of course we need that. So a lot of education that is um yeah in

in a good place now but you know took a while to get there. Absolutely. Absolutely. any of the other you guys? Like I said, I know I know we have a super deep bench here. Um if not, um uh David, I'm I'm going to throw to you. Um so your PM team, we talked about this in prep, spans a lot of different disciplines. Like how do you go about trying to hire the right kind of PMs to actually um support Apex the way that it needs to be? So, I'm going to be coming at this primarily, I would say, from the AAA space because all the games that I've worked on have generally been there. Um, so Hearthstone, Call of Duty, Skylanders, Apex, all from the the um kind of same perspective that Lee was referring to. And by the way, Lee, the education is still going on. So, just know in AAA it never stops and it'll probably be going on forever. Um, I don't think it'll ever end because, you know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, right? So, some people are stuck in their ways. Um, but as far as hiring the right mix of PMs and the right skill

set, I think it's less about hiring the right mix of PMs and making sure that you have for and this is controversial opinion I think for some folks, but I'm I really think about building a team more on sound fundamentals. And so as long as you have a strong foundation as a PM, I think you can solve and do anything right. And of course with a lot of the AI stuff that Orin's talking about, it's really making the time to context and your ability to learn about your players, empathize with them more, learn about the the problem space, like matchmaking. How many white papers has Call of Duty put out, right, that we can just read to get ramped up on that stuff? And so AI has just made that information gathering stage really fast. Long gone are the days of like two weeks of doing something, right? You can use deep research and get a ton of stuff and read it immediately and be super ramped up. So I think as long as you have a team that has or PMs that have strong fundamentals, you can really shift them and move them around to wherever the business is needed at the time, right? For for us because we span a lot of different disciplines, uh sometimes we get resource taken away to do monetization stuff, right? But guess what? That's fine because there's

someone over there that's working on meta systems or core BR or or something else. Um really important, I think, as well specific to the AAA space is having people that have um what's the right way to say this? uh I guess strong empathy and when I say empathy I mean with the designers right like they don't respond well like Lee was saying to data so you really have to be able to read the room cut through understand what they care about and like it sounds manipulative in a way but think on your feet to kind of reposition what you're saying so that you can connect with that person and get things across the line so empathy and a strong sense of communication and getting that done are are really important. So to recap, empathy, strong communication, and sound fundamentals, I think for PMs, uh, is what makes a strong team and gives you the ability to really flex around. Thanks, David. Um, JK, I kind of want to talk to you. Um, we talked a little bit about in our prep like the differences in team size and structure like uh, you know, we I think we talked about larger teams versus smaller teams. Can you kind of share with the audience like some of the thoughts around that and what might be

some of the trade-offs there? Okay. Well, I I've got a lot of thoughts about how teams, people, teams, and organizations will change. I I think like so I there's there's a change I think that's coming with AI, which is a I I I think I have some controversial views and it's pretty long- winded, so I don't know if I want to dive deeply into that. Okay. All right. So, so I am an AI maximalist. So uh so I I think one one thing to think about is that um I don't think that the the the current way that we think about product management is going to exist however much time from now maybe maybe 12 months from now maybe a couple of years from now but I think it's going to change and it it'll change because when you think about what AI fundamentally is doing is it's going to subsume a lot of work from uh different roles and So just just to kind of make this a little bit more practical, you know, I would talk to a PM at my company and that PM would

be like, "Haha, look at the artists. All their work is going to get taken away by AI." And then, you know, the then I I think Dario, the the CEO of Anthropic, would post something and they're like, "Haha, look at the engineers. All their work is going to be taken over by AI." And then I talked to the engineers like, "Haha, guess what? All the product managers work is going to be taken over by AI." And if you think about it, there are going to be a set of capabilities and tasks that are subsumed by AI both on the low end and the high end. Meaning like boring, repetitive work obviously will be taken over by AI. And there are going to be some types of tasks and work that are just too complex for human beings to figure out that are going to be taken over by AI. And so when you think about traditional roles, whether you're a product manager, engineer, or artist, there's going to be a lot of tasks and capabilities that are taken over by AI. So what does that leave for humans? Well, if you go to the extreme

in terms of AI and believe in super intelligence, and I absolutely hope we never get there, then then in that world, you know, human beings just no longer have a need to exist and and super intelligence will do anything everything. But if we go to a c in that transition and as AI gets better and better, what I think will actually happen is that roles will compress, teams will compress. And so what does that mean? That means that the work that a typical um product manager will do, I think, is not going to make sense. And there's going to be something a concept that I call organizational meta. Meaning if you think about like some people talk about AI in the context of like you have currently a fixed organizational structure that doesn't change and at the other extreme end you have a completely dynamic structure for for a team and a company that completely changes. I don't believe in either view. I think that

just like in League of Legends when they change the meta and champions abilities, there's going to be limitations, capabilities, weights, meaning strengths and weaknesses, and various things that create an organizational meta. And so what I think is going to happen is that in this organizational meta for a specific kind of product that what will happen is that there is going to be a maximally effective type of organization that makes the most sense. And so you may not have an engineer anymore or a product manager anymore. You might have a product engineer or a product marketer or some of these roles are going to combine and there's going to be a new kind of organizational structure that is maximally effective in these organizations that can't change because you're in a big company like I I don't want to name the companies. Some of these compan are still mad at me for things I've said in the past but yeah they're like still angry. It's like dude

I said that two years ago. Anyway, but like so if you're part of these large big companies where you've got fixed roles and you're highly vertically oriented, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. Your organization, I don't think is going to be competitive in the future. So from the perspective of a product manager, I think that the product manager role to some degree is going to in some situations completely not be necessary like especially if you do like web type of products and things like that. And also but in gaming maximally important because why? Because there needs to be somebody who orchestrates the organization. There needs to be somebody who looks at intelligence and you talked about different kinds of returns but there's also something that Dario this the CEO of anthropic calls a return to intelligence and so when you think about this person who or helps orchestrate the kind of

organization that's necessary to be maximally competitive and also is looking at where do we get the best returns to intelligence and applies that to different parts of the company. Those are the kinds of organizations that are just going to whoop ass on every other big organization that just fundamentally cannot change. I'll I'll just stop there. Sorry. God damn JK. Then we we got to get jamming to our next session. Thank you all so much. Tim. Yes. Can we just do like one takeaway from each person? Is that cool, man? Just cuz. Of course. Of course. All right. So, uh yeah, well said, JK. Love it. Uh the thing I just want to make sure we hit on was wealth of knowledge. What are you going to based on what you said or whatever? What's like your one takeaway for all the people here to basically get ready for the change that's coming? Well, just we'll start on that end. David, you want to go this way? Just I mean just plus one to a lot of what JK said honestly like adapt or die to be very and it's said it in a

kind of a aggressive way but it's this is all the AI tools are the equivalent of Adobe Photoshop and everything right? So find a way to use it. I think it's here to amplify not replace. Yeah. So I want to continue what you said. A lot of people ask me if AI is going to replace artist or PM or whatever role this person is asking for. And I think that as much as I research it more, I see that the only people that are going to be replaced are the people that will not adopt it. So PMs that adopt AI will replace PMs that will not adopt AI eventually. So that's it on on the non AI side. I think uh for since it's a group of PMs, my recommendation is data and information is much easier to get now. So the the problem is very obvious. What really matters is the so what. And so I encourage all designers to kind of all PMs to become more like

designers and really start designing features and put on your design hat which ultimately is a customer player focused hat that makes you invaluable and hard to replace. So I push all PMs to do that. That's my recommendation. Yeah, I would say like if the the vision or the direction that I described is correct, then I don't think that this role of product manager as a standalone role makes sense. And I think what will happen is that it will be important to be what I'm calling a PM plus one. Meaning you understand the role, functions, skills of a product manager, but also have extreme depth in another area, whether it's engineering or marketing or some other area. I think those are the kinds of people that will be successful in this new world. Well said. Thanks everybody. You No, whoa, whoa. You skipped me. What? This is my karma. I did this to JK the other night. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. My bad. Live ops agents. That's it. Mic drop.

[Applause] All right, we're back. I'm here with Tim Hong and Solomon Lter. Thanks again to both of you for helping make this panel happen and for joining me here to unpack some of that discussion. So, let's start with this. Uh, what was your biggest surprise from the panel or after the panel? Just thinking back on some of the things that were discussed, anything you didn't expect that stood out or anything you've been thinking about since that panel? Well, well, first off, JK, thanks for having us here. Um, my my gut reaction, like momentto reaction was um surprise was how well received it was, right? I I think that the reality is is um depending on the room you're in and the folks you're talking to, uh AI can be a blessing or a curse word, right? Um but

all in all, I think we're at a different point in the the cycle where I think everybody realizes, okay, um AI is not a magic bullet that will solve everything, but it does provide a ton of value. So, how do I unlock that? So, there were there's been a ton of great conversations around that. And and the last thing I'll say is like I I think we're at a point too where we're seeing uh companies and studios and publishers move from idea to true PC to possible even uh things in production this year whereas last year I don't think that was as much the case. So I think I was really surprised positively in how uh folks are thinking about this and the possibility of it. Concur with everything that Tim said. I think there's just a huge hunger for more insights um both tactical, real world uh and strategic, right? So, I think a lot of people came to the event to learn that stuff. The the AI panel was short and sweet. And so, you know, we had I'd say a lot of people coming back to us and

saying like, "Hey, can we kind of can we drill into this? Could we set up a call?" Clients came to us that were inspired by the content of the panel. uh a couple big clients who, you know, they're still in the conceptual phases of a lot of these things, but I think they realize that they're not going to get there on their own. And so there's this kind of like openness around collaboration. Uh one particular client came to us and said, "Hey, we want to kind of build a council, right? And you as our live ops tooling provider, our analytics tooling provider, uh we want you to have a seat on that council. We're trying to build custom solutions of which you're going to be a part. And so we need to understand like how does how is AI going to help us uh bas basically orchestrate all of that. And so um we've had a couple folks reach out to us there. That's exciting because it's enabling us to come to the table with uh not just our solutions but with partners like a uh like AWS for games uh who have a pretty you know burgeoning kind of AI practice. And so I think

we're all running at that opportunity right now because like Tim said there's no silver bullet. It's going to uh require you know I'd say significant you know not just technical integration but collaboration to build the right solutions uh for different studios. Yeah. I think from my perspective one of the things that stood out to me was just the level of uncertainty and bracing for change that I'm starting to see in a lot of leaders in the gaming industry today. Like we talked about some macro trends and we we can discuss some of those things as well. there's just been since since COVID and since like the overinvestment in in gaming and since we're going through a lot of different changes and we talked about some of that during the panel in terms of the attention economy in terms of AI and so there just seems to be a lot of folks who are not quite sure what all of the changes that have been occurring environmentally mean for them and how do you prepare for a world in which we're going to have we've got so many things happening and you've But you know the

the big sort of bigger macro trend that's kind of coming that we're also trying to brace for is this impact of AI. So I I thought that was the most interesting part and it seems like now more than ever is the time where because there are a lot of different opinions and we've got so many changes that having a good group of people to to discuss some of these issues is is valuable. Mhm. And maybe we could speak to that because during that discussion we did speak to a number of macro trends, China's rise, attention fragmentation, uh AI which was a big theme also live ops resurgence. I know Solomon you had touched upon some issues around uh you know kind of PC versus mobile and things of that nature but since that panel since GDC what trends do you guys still think that maybe some product managers might be underestimating do you have any kind of follow-up thoughts based upon that conversation since GDC

that you've thought about the whole idea that uh product management as a job is not going away as a functional job, it's not going away. But I do believe my hypothesis is is that with the advent of u knowledge being somewhat commoditized by AI in the terms of like hey if you don't understand a term you can query it you can get context as a PM you're going to need to have something else to hang your hat on and uh whether it's being design focused uh analytics focused right like there needs to be something that gets you a seat at the table and allows allows you to have the discussion around decision-m, right? Um because we're seeing like these large language models be able to answer basic queries and questions and maybe even get more complex around, hey, what is segmentation look? You know, what does good look like? But there's still going to be need for human inflow. And so the

one thing I've seen on, you know, some forums and stuff is, you know, PMs are like, you know, boohooing AI, which I get. it won't take your job even though it could pull together a PRD but what is going to get you into the room to be able to speak to things and have opinions on things I think that is where uh skilling up in a certain direction is going to be very necessary right especially when you consider uh there's there's folks likeelves um yesterday I just turned 41 so I guess I'm old at this point right where you have some birthday you're kidding thank you thank you thank you folks um my I guess my whole point is you have continuum of people here with varying levels of experience and I think in a good way AI does kind of level the playing field. So what is your additive on top of that that allows you to say hey I'm right for your studio to help you make a better game. Um, so I think yeah, I think yeah, so sorry Tim, I was about to say I think you make a really strong point and there's there have been a number of lead leaders in AI that have been talking

about how AI will take over like there there's Dario had mentioned half of of white collar jobs in the next 5 years. There have been other folks who have also stated that even if AI doesn't progress anymore like it just completely stops in terms of advancements that a lot of white collar jobs will be given kind of the same time frame should be taken away in the next 5 years and so kind of like to your point I I agree with you Tim that the role of product management does remain but it does I think people should become a little bit more um thoughtful about where does value flow right so because AI will be taking away certain kinds of work and especially simple things as you mentioned and other kinds of work. But then if that happens, how do you maintain value as a product manager and part of that is going to be thinking about what are the limitations of AI? Where where where are the hard parts so that if you can do those hard parts then that that's where you'll

continue to maintain value. I I don't know if you if you agree with that, Tim. Yeah, I mean my quick follow-up funny thought to that is I immediately thought about a plumber and literally you pay the guy, you know, a couple hundred bucks to come fix something that maybe I could DIY, but the difference to your point is he could do in 15 minutes, it'll take me six hours, right? And that that I think becomes the way to to think about it where you're right like what can AI not do and then what extra value do I bring? And I think for a lot of people it'll be hey I ran X game, we tried this thing. Sure, we could run it through AI, but here's what happened. And so, if anything, uh, you know, the function remains the same, which is to get experience that I guess AI can't replace, but at the same time, you know, I I really like what you said too about trying to be very thoughtful about it, right? I mean, that's something I think we're all trying to figure out, like what is the new space that we should occupy, right? Solon, your thoughts on macro. Yeah. Um, I think

it's is this a kind of interesting mindset shift as folks begin to move from conceptual to actually beginning to, you know, build some prototypes and some proof pro proof of concepts, right? And I think that the conceptual shift seems to be thinking about leveraging AI less as a feature layer and more as like an orchestration layer. So, um, you know, what does that you know fundamentally what does that mean? it, you know, I think um building instead of like relying on just like AB testing and segmentation in the case of live ops, you're actually automating like onetoone personalized messages at scale, offer pacing, um personalized progression, onetoone, right? That ultimately that's what you're going to have to do. And it's not going to just be our platform that enables you to do that. There's going to be other tools that build up this kind of orchestration layer. For example, we're talking to a client right now around uh using AI to

like to basically tag content and manage content. Just that in and of itself, I think is a is a big uh value ad if if someone could figure that out. And there's a bunch of like new school uh for as an example uh you know digital asset management systems. These systems have been around for like 20 years, right? But in the context of like a game using AI and like with advanced ML and even like generative AI that's like learning from how the player behaves, this is a significant I think um efficiency gain that folks could have. So it's like how do you automate messaging at scale, offers at scale? How do you automate uh assets at scale? It's probably not going to be one platform that enables you to do it. We're going to knock out a big chunk of it. We're running it that quickly right now. Again, that's where other partners come in. That's where folks like AWS come in. And then how you going to like how you going to, you know, uh, manage the compute of all that, right? It's pretty expensive. That's where AWS comes in as well. So,

uh, yeah, I think not thinking of it as like a as a as a feature layer, but actually, you know, the PM at the at the controls of a command center orchestrating everything, I think, is a is a fundamental shift that we're beginning to see, at least people begin to think about, right? And if I were to kind of interpret your comments, Solomon, and try to generalize and kind of simplify to some degree, it seems that there's kind of a few takeaways that that that I would interpret what you've said, which is like one, so there AI will have the ability of automating different kinds of work. But to your point, there are certain kinds of capabilities that will also be enabled by AI in terms of personalization offers, messaging, CRM. And so one thing that PM should be thinking about is not only just kind of like uh how AI can automate specific kinds of works, but also thinking more offensively. So offensively and sort of defensively. offensively, meaning there's new

capabilities or there may have been some capabilities that are o available to bigger teams, but because you've got AI, then all of a sudden a smaller team can start to compete against some of these bigger teams by thinking more offensively and thinking about the capabilities that you can bring to to AI. In the other point you made around the orchestration, I I do think and you know we kind of touched upon that on during the panel as well but more and more having kind of like a broad-based view as well as like specific expertise but the orchestration would require product managers to have a very broad understanding of all the different things that whether it's AI or or different kinds of tools and things could do and then the PM kind of being like the um you know to the degree that creatives are tastemaker is a PM is kind of like a tastemaker for like the capabilities or tools or things that you can from the world of capabilities. What are the specific things that we should be doing to optimize the game given that there's

so many different things that you could possibly do or get enabled because of AI. One question I wanted to ask you Tim is during that panel you had mentioned the Gartner framework and specific types of return and I I think increasingly we're going to have to be thinking about return more thoughtfully and one one kind of concept or one KPI that was that is part of that Gartner framework is return on employee and so I was wondering if you could kind of speak to how organizations or teams should be thinking about different kinds of return and what are you seeing How are some of the teams that you're working with thinking about these different kinds of return for their organization? Yeah, great question. Um, so, um, I want to give credit where credit's due. We had, uh, Mary Mlio, um, one of the VPs over at Gartner, you know, talk to us at AWS. There's a great podcast you could just Google that talks about, it's called the three business the three AI business outcomes every leader must understand. And I'll quickly go over it. Um but the

the three areas are to your point uh return on employee which is about helping your employees become more efficient. uh return on investment which is hey drive the bottom line or your actual KPIs and return on future which is hey create new capabilities and business models right and so um the thought here is to your point uh let's f let's rewind six months ago or even a year ago and you say hey invest in AI well people are like okay great what does that mean and I think now that we're in our current state we can create these buckets because your CFO your CTO your CEO, everyone actually wants to say, "Great, we're going to spend x thousands or millions of dollars in this. What's actually going to happen?" And so by creating these three buckets, you can kind of like extensively hedge your bets in a certain way. And so, um, in terms of use cases, we could kind of tackle them one at a time. Return on employee, like helping employees become more efficient. Well, you really wouldn't measure that in like, you know, arpow changes to your

players. What you might look at is well, how fast are we able to execute on operational work? How much cost are we saving? And like what I got to get excited about JK and Solomon is there's some really I'd say cool but maybe not very sexy projects, but as soon as we kind of uh talk about them, I think they'll make a ton of sense. Like one of them is what if you were to leverage uh AI to um create a knowledge base that captured every single initiative that your studio had tried on a game, right? Because what happens invariably is you hire a new person, they come in and say, "Oh, cool. Why don't you do this new social feature?" Well, if you created a knowledge base that was living and active, you can basically have that person or anybody query and say, "Why don't we try this kind of social feature? Is there any, you know, history around how well or how well it didn't go?" And um that idea also can be applied for onboarding, right? If you're a new product person or engineer joining a job, there's probably some facets

around um company culture or how you do your deployments that you know is hard knowledge transfer or you have that one guy in the studio who knows everything and therefore he has to stay there forever. Well, why not transfer that over? And I think uh that's where it gets really excited where maybe these are not like the most playerfacing ones, but they're very impactful. I'll pause there for any thoughts or your responses on those. Yeah, I I think the other kind of maybe like downstream implication of thinking about return and if we think about also what happens with AI is like how do we even measure returns to some degree especially in a world where if AI is taking on more and more work and we're not clearly sure what the delineation is between an employee and AI or maybe it doesn't even matter because you're just you just want to measure the overall impact that uh that is kind of being brought into an organization, right? Like or or if

you're working on a product, what is the overall delta regardless of the the the human component versus the AI component? But also in addition, if roles start to merge, right? Because a lot of the the way that kind of productivity or returns to some degree are measured in a lot of organization today is through departments. But one of the things we talked about is what if the product manager is doing stuff in product management also doing maybe some stuff in marketing or engineering. How do we get like a holistic view on the return of that employee for example, right? I think it it just becomes more complicated. The world we live in is going to become a lot more complex is kind of the way that I'm thinking about it. You know, we're going to be collaborating with computers, right? Like to this point it has been order taking, right? Hey computer, do XYZ. But I think we're entering a whole new world where it is about collaboration and those lines get blurred for sure. And that's where, like I said, um these these projects, right, I I'd say like

are traditionally maybe they're more IT focused, HR focused, but if you think about it, like who wouldn't want a PM assistant who whenever you bring on a new PM to a project, even if it's for like six months, hey, you're good to go. Here's the exact library of how we run our game. Here's why. you you let them sit in front of the LLM query it for an hour or two and then ad hocly right I don't know about the rest of the PMs but there's times when you're working in flow you have question you don't want to really bother anybody so you just have to take a guess why why do we have to do that anymore right so I think that's where it gets really exciting for that that one bucket for sure yeah hey JK real quick um recently I heard on one of your podcasts I think you you mentioned the new one of the new metrics or most important metrics for all PMs. Uh something related to velocity. I forget the term you you made. Oh, product velocity. Product velocity. Right. So, right. I think ultimately that's what we're talking about here. Um that's what

all of this is going to enable. And I fully agree with you. Right. That that is uh going to be the met the most important metric I think for all PMs. Um and you know, mo mobile PM specifically, live ops, you know, focused PM specifically. It's it's all about velocity and how to leverage tools to increase velocity. Yeah. Yeah. And Solomon, one of the other things from that panel discussion that you had talked about is the kind of culture clash between mobile and console. I think this space continues to emerge where we're seeing some crossplatform, some not. But certainly from a people perspective, we're seeing people start to more freely go between uh having worked on, you know, HD games to mobile companies and vice versa. And so do you have any updated thoughts in in terms of mobile versus HD uh is as far as like um whether it's organizationally or anything that you're seeing from a product perspective? I

think it's it's organizational. Um my thoughts on this haven't changed. I've just gone I've gone deeper on it. Um I've had I've had friends uh you know recently who who are kind of impacted by this and left organizations. Uh these are these are you know expert mobile PMs which I think you know the the backdrop of all this of course is like the down market that mobile specifically has been in. Um and the glut of really smart mobile PMs that are on the market. These are a lot of friends of mine, clients of mine, right? and friends of mine and um I think a lot of them you know immediately got snapped up by you know AAA studios AA studios console studios indie studios focused on Steam but again just like I we spoke about excuse me at the panel there's that that cultural um and organizational uh uh dichotomy between mobile PMs and like production focused uh organizations

with producers executive producers um thinking about things more from the perspective of like art u than science and and then I think that there's the inability obviously to act on data quickly and and make things happen that you know these mobile PMs ultimately uh you don't have the patience for and so you end up in a situation where I think these these console folks they they they want access to that talent because they know that's where everything is is headed and they want to get into more of an agile, you know, velocitydriven, you know, um, uh, you know, release model, right, for for their games. But organizationally, they're not set up to do that. And culturally, they're not set up to do that. And politically, they're not set up to do that. And so, we're going to continue, I think, to see some some shakeout from that. And then ultimately, there's going to be some winners that emerge. and the winners um are gonna figure out how to tune their organizations to better capitalize on

these people's strengths, right? And I I got some I got I have some some people that you know some some organizations that I'm looking at specifically. I think you know Riot I think is has been doing some cool things based on folks I've I've talked with. uh they're still working on Valerant mobile of course but I think the console side of the house has adopted some of those mobile PM principles and this is again I'm not inside of the organization this is based on conversations I've had with numerous people in the in the product world over there but um there's going to the folks who adapt to this quicker and make these changes faster are going to win um and the folks who don't are going to you know continue to struggle and and you know and probably miss out on talent uh I think it's a retention issue fundamentally. Yeah. Kind of like to the point that you're making even if we were to step back and just generalize like there has been this culture clash and kind of this the these these issues between mobile development philosophy versus HD kind of ways of doing things

as as well. But even more broadly even and even before AI we we've seen a lot of changes happen from a macro perspective as we had talked about which we're going to have to adapt to as as an industry the games industry has to adapt to all these different changes that we were already seeing from a live ops rise of China all the other stuff that we talked about and then when you layer on top all these things all these changes and things that's coming from AI like to the point that you're making more broadly, we're going to see a whole new set of winners and losers. And so it it this is kind of like a warning to the industry that if you do dig in and just try to be so narrowly focused and just and just be stuck to well, this is how we did it before. Well, I think one of the things that we're saying, one of the key themes from this panel is change is not only here, but even more change

is coming. And really, it's it's kind of like the the way that I generalize some of your comments now, Solomon, is basically adapt or die. That these things are coming. A lot of them are already here. And if we continue to see some of the resistance and kind of the issues that we've seen even just between mobile versus HD, but even more broadly with all the stuff happening, it's it's going to be um a very crucial time for for really people to be a little bit more adaptable and flexible. Yeah. Yeah. completely agree. I think um we're we're seeing the challenges just incorporating you know mobile kind of tech driven um you know product management methodologies right we kind of mentioned that on the panel comes from techn it comes from technology products right it comes from the lineage is Zinga the lineage is Facebook very different from you know the traditional kind of HDA world and that cultural shift and incorporating all these really tal who I think are really talented folks I'm

obviously super biased that you know we do a lot of mobile stuff have a lot of mobile clients but if that's been a challenge just organizationally right for the for the industry to kind of capitalize on this glut of talent what does that mean when the like the release cycles compress even more and and velocity becomes something that like everyone needs to have so you know like you kind of extrapolate that and you can see it's you know if if you're having trouble figuring out how to work in these kind of best in practice live services, live ops, um methodologies and teams. Uh it's going to be even harder, I think, for a lot of these orgs to to adapt to the new reality that um human intervention, forget, you know, you know, different cultures or like different type ways of doing things, human intervention is going to is going to continue to be kind of mitigated. And so, right, you could you could see how folks are going to ch you know, struggle with that. Okay. And I one of the key themes during that panel obviously and we've already

touched upon this a bunch is AI. And actually I think both of you in particular would be uh really great to answer this question just because both of you have a lot of gaming customers and clients. You're talking to a lot of different people doing things in the industry today. So based upon what you're seeing and kind of like the the the high level broad view that you have from your clients, customers and partners, do you guys have any specific examples of how some of those folks are using AI in a more meaningful way? Now obviously there's some things that a lot of people are doing which is like using chatpt for research or writing and it's super useful there obviously but I'm wondering if you guys are seeing anything interesting that some of your clients or partners are also doing. The answer is absolutely yes. Um the the the caveat though I I would say um and the hesitancy that I I think is healthy from PMs is back to the whole point about it not being a magic bullet or not leading with oh how do we AI this thing or how

do we AI it up or whatever. Um instead what I think we're seeing and you know a lot of folks who've been in the industry for a long time is like look AI and ML and you know some idea of bots have been around for forever. Um but in terms of like specific examples right like we're seeing uh things like QA testing starting to get even uh move to this next level of u not just automation but uh contextual automation or ideiation on great we ran xm smoke tests for this kind of device how do we scale that up further right once again thinking about how are we actually getting to market faster um another big one that I think we should talk about is just the idea of agentic AI, right? And and the way to think about it very simply is like it's kind of like how you figure out to play a video game, right? Like uh this is the analogy I think about, right? Like you start with like your basic controls, you play through a level and you experiment and then you just kind of figure out how

to play. Like I think about like Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat, like whenever anybody starts playing for the first hour, nobody knows what the heck they're doing, right? But the whole idea with Agentic is hey, you let this person keep playing the game after a while, they're going to get better at it. And that's and that's the whole idea around what Agentic is versus regular AI. And so the reason I mention that is because um currently, you know, as someone who worked on a bunch of games before, like in some ways I was the bottleneck of execution for live ops because it was up to my interpretation, my execution of the tools to be able to actually do a bunch of stuff. And so what we're seeing um JK is folks saying, "Okay, cool. Um what is this agents thing? How do we break it down? And and the answer really is you're going to start seeing functional agents appear within the workflow. So you won't have like the one agent who runs your entire live ops, but you might have a segmenting agent whose only job is to look at, you know, uh how

to segment players. And here's one I I got really excited about was like, look, as a former game PM uh that ran free-to-play games, your non-spenders are a segment that's pretty easy to kind of like say, well, I don't have all the time in the world to figure out how to convert them to be payers, and the demands on me are to try to figure out how to drive revenue or drive engagement. Well, what if you made an agent whose pure job it was was to observe the health of non-spenders, not to try to convert them to spend, but to figure out, hey, are we engaging our player base in the most positive, healthy way? Like to me, I was like, oh, that's amazing. Like, so there's tons of agent examples. We're seeing people, like I said, actually figure out how to bring those to PC. And the underlying part is if your data uh strategy is not solid, it's really hard to like create a training model on that. So the specific example here is people want to do agents and they're realizing well we got to get our data house in order to do that. And so I think it's a very exciting time to kind of consider the possibilities

there. Yeah. And in agents in particular this this is where a couple of the things that we've discussed before come into play. One is like when you're thinking about returns and where you could potentially deploy various kinds of agents, you really have to think about what do you want these agents to do, right? And so to the point that Solomon, you mentioned about orchestration. You're going to like the part part of the role of the PM is going to be okay, I have the power of agents at my disposal. Where am I going to deploy them and how do I measure whether it's a good use of these agents or not? And then finally, in a world of agents, I think more more like vendors are going to have to think about how do you have services that are agent enabled. And what I mean by this, and I can give you a very specific example, but there are a number of vendors like web shops right now is a is a big thing. Um, as far as I know, there's only a single vendor I I'll have to confirm

this that where you can drive your web shop through API and that that's that's Stash as far as I know. So like if you have these services that depend on human beings like a PM or product manager going into a UI and manually configuring things. I mean sure maybe agents later will be able to figure that out and do that. But the more that you make it programmable by having services not be through have requiring manual intervention but being more API enabled and making these things more agentfriendly. Those are the services I think that are going to win in this new world of Agentic. Yeah, it's a really good point, Tim. Um, the point I like to make is, you know, I've been in the game tech space for going on six years. I've been in the marketing automation space for like 16 years. Um, and we in the marketing automation space and that's broadly, right, across multiple industries. And we in the marketing automation space, we see the agentic thing as like an existential

shift, opportunity, threat, however you want to look at it, right? Once agents are fully up and running, automation is going to be completely eaten by agents. And that's just like broadly speaking in in martekch in in marketing automation in general. Then you think about like live ops and all the use cases around live ops, right? Whether it's like actively managing the economy in real time based on the available amount of currency and the players in the pool and the players that are spending versus the non-spenders. That's a huge opportunity. Um because I think we've all seen I've seen it with my clients, you know, one human error gets made and you could break your economy and it cost you 100 grand or whatever it is and like people get fired over stuff like that, right? So, uh this is a huge opportunity, right? Huge opportunity around tuning offer which then ties back into the economy. Um again, it goes to it's it becomes one true one to one personalization. We're not quite there yet and it's going to take a a whole hell of a lot of compute to get there

which is you know why I know we're leaning in so hard with AWS uh for games as it relates to kind of delivering this but other use cases too. I mean speaking to some of the more the practical things that I'm beginning to see clients do. I mentioned that uh using AI to dynamically tag content and assets in games that's a that's a very manual process typically right and so that's a huge efficiency driver and if you think about what like clever does as an example is the analogy I like to give our whole thing is we're trying to eliminate or not eliminate or remediate developer intervention with a lot of these more complex live ops events and offers that's our whole thing right we're trying to make product leaders ers, product teams, live ops managers, non-technical business users more efficient. We're trying to kind of democratize that execution. So, you know, your core dev team could focus on more meta, more critical mission critical systems and features and roadmap. Um, now with this new paradigm shift, we're we're talking about

remediation of human intervention or or at least remediation of excessive manual intervention. That's a huge opportunity. But to your point, as these things proliferate, the PM's role, the PM's role or the live odds manager's role is going to change and it's going to be you're going to have to figure out how to orchestrate all these different tools doing all these different things. Um, so yeah, we're super excited about all this stuff. Um, we have our clients driving a lot of innovation there. We got amazing partners like AWS for games that are, you know, building really strong practices around this. And again, the clients that I think are thinking about it in the right way are like, hey, how do we put together like a a committee, you know, to build the best possible solutions, you know, given our unique use cases in our games. And and I just want to add one more point with here, which is like I know we talked about return on employee. Um I think Agentic very well lives in the possible return on on investment bucket, right? Because Solomon, I totally agree, right? As of

right now, it feels like every two weeks, uh, someone significant in the space is releasing something new, and you're like, "Oh, I got to try that. I got to try this." But I I think like my unsolicited thought to PMs out there is like, look, how do you want to use this to drive real business value to your org? That is how you win and get investment. And I and I do think it is going to be a peacemeal approach only because of the velocity of change we we're seeing. What we may recommend today may not be as impactful in 12 months. And that's great. That's actually good. But I think when you think about uh agents by domain and by function like that's where I think it gets exciting, right? because we're we're talking about uh moving away from rulebased systems which are brittle and kind of like can change, right? Like how do you know if like your first time user spend should be $10 right now? Maybe in

12 months it should be seven or eight or like that's where I think it gets really exciting and that's where I would say when you think about trying to drive bottom line values that's where I think agents you can kind of start justifying cost if you can you know expand the bottom line. So yeah. Well, I thought we could wrap with just maybe from your perspective and given all that you're seeing, one last piece of advice to product managers who given our current environment with all the changes happening with the coming of AI, how should they think about staying relevant and valuable over the next two to three years, which should be one of the most, you know, kind of dynamic and changing times in our in in our lifetime, maybe even in human history, depending on, you know, what happens with AI. So anyway, one one final piece of advice. I I am kind of thinking about how the the barrier to entry to try out a lot of things is actually extremely low in in in kind of like I'm thinking about my span of life here, right? Like you have

um you know different cloud providers like ourselves and others where you could pay as you go. You want to mess around with something like image recognition or sound recognition, go do it. You want to try a different LLM, go. they're gonna only charge you for a month or maybe it's free. Like I think this is akin to what you're saying JK of like, hey, we've all been riding on horses and now the car comes along. Like we can't be afraid of the car, you know? Like go take a ride. Go take a spin and then go mess it up. Like go figure out what didn't work and and and keep moving because I think, like I said, this isn't like, "Hey, something's new. Give me $10,000 to try it." It's no like, "Hey, something's new. spend 20 bucks in two hours and see what happens. So, I'd say get dirty, be curious, and you know, um I don't know what will happen, but good things will happen, you know, and I think that's that's my one piece of advice. Yeah, I'd echo all of Tim's comments kind of on the same token. Um, I think that a lot of folks I know in

the space, particularly the the PMs who um work in more AI friendly uh environments or or even like AI native game companies or trying to build AI native game companies. I feel like there's a there's a culture just in startups in general and tech in general of stealth, right? people ultimately don't like to talk about this stuff and um they're trying to, you know, maintain first mover advantage or whatever it is or competitive separation. Listen, I don't think that's like there's nothing you can't hide the innovation at this point. Like, you know, you could go to a language model and and and figure out half of this stuff. It's it's all about execution. Of course, people are going to have cool ideas, but I think that's the wrong approach to take. And so my guidance to any EPMs whether you're mobile console uh whether you work at a you know AI native studio or or just a very AI um enabled you know studio or publisher uh build in public right share

your experiments your failures your thinking uh do that out loud I think the future probably belongs to PMs who learn out loud um because ultimately it's going to it's no one person is going to figure it out it's going to be a collective thing and you know the whole space is going to innovate as a result of it. So that would be my guidance because I think the more open you know PM different PMs can be with each other the more they're going to collaborate you know even across competitive IP and titles right uh because ultimately everyone's going to have access to these tools the whole industry is going to evolve and and I think improve as a result of it and so uh better to better to be collaborative and open than uh then you know try to try to maintain stealth for first mover advantage. Yeah, and I would say my advice to any product managers out there is that I truly believe and have for a while that you know the impact of AI will be the biggest not only in our lifetime but

possibly human all of human history. And so like now is not the time to relax. If some of these AI guys are right, this may be the last opportunity to work hard. Like maybe AI just takes over and does everything. So my advice to a lot of the folks out there is like you have to learn as much as possible, right? Push now because we don't know what's going to happen in the future. Your job may be at risk. There will likely be sort of power law distribution in terms of value and wealth. And so if you're a little bit ahead of the curve, if you are just a little bit better than someone else, that could mean a 10x, 100x, thousandx difference. So now is not the time to relax would be my advice for folks out there. But with that, thank you guys so much. Thanks Tim and Solomon. To our listeners, if you enjoyed this, please feel free to like and subscribe. We've got more deep dives coming in terms of product management as

well as AI and game development and what makes great games. Thank you for staying tuned and we will catch you next time. Thanks guys. Thanks JK. Thanks, JK. [Music] [Music]