Climbing to the C-Suite: Insights from Mission One's Gerard Miles

[Music] Gerard miles co-o of mission one welcome back to the podcast hi Misha thanks so much for having us back of course and Mission one for those who don't know is leading executive head hunting company focusing on talent in games and interactive media is that a correct way to summarize yeah Mishka thanks so much that's that's a great summmer okay well you've been before on the podcast we talked about how to get into the C there was a lot of like U fan questions or not fan questions but like preed questions we also have a lot of preceded questions and I I was thinking that we would divide this podcast into two segments on the first segment we will focus on giving advice for the candidates and on the second part of the podcast we will focus on giving the advice to uh Board of the company or seit of the company who are making the

higher how does that sound J sounds sounds perfect Mishka thank you all right well then let's start off with the uh with the toughest question of them all uh what does an executive Head Hunter do and let's put it into a context of what did you do yesterday like what was your day what did I do yesterday goodness uh if I can remember a whole 24 hours ago yeah so um at the highest level you know executive Search is around helping companies go out and hire the very best talent for those really critical roles and you know that is it's quite a multifaceted task because for every company the challenge is slightly different both in terms of the challenge that they're trying to solve with that hire but also in terms of the challenge of going and recruiting the right person so it might be you're a 10 person startup and therefore you know your brand is something you're going to have to overcome the the message to the

market is a is a challenge you're GNA have to overcome if you're scopely you know one of our clients for example you know the brand everyone has heard of a of a little known game called Monopoly go right so you know you've got a very different challenge there exactly so you got a very different challenge there of you know there it's about finding someone who can work at the right scale and okay there's very few games that have operated at say the scale of where scopely are uh now so uh Head Hunters are very much in in the middle of that process trying to both connect make the right connections to the right candidates but also actually a lot of the work is in education or in advice to the client and through a process of meeting people of seeing different profiles one often actually refines both what one's looking for and better grapples with the challenges that you're you're facing and overcoming in attracting that that top talent which is both relevant for today's search and the immediate needs but also filters into the broader sense

of okay where are we in the market how are we growing what kind of leadership do we need in this team particularly now I've seen a couple of leaders interact with with my team and you know that also unlocks different ideas of a what what really works uh for us so so there's a head hunter I think a lot of people think about the functional you know connecting person a to Company B but actually it's it's a much broader trench and it's a bit more of a journey I think that people go on um in in executive sech that sounds a little bit praic uh it's it's not hobit um so so Vision St yeah let's let's Grane it down let's take the mystery off to like what did I do yesterday um so we kicked up we had the first call call calls call probably exactly so we had um we actually had a the first update call with the client who had been listening uh to the deconstructor fund podcast they said oh Jared actually I was listening and I realiz it was you on that so with Brian Ward who we had on um a few weeks ago so um and there was you know presenting the first slate of candidates they hadn't seen anyone

uh they're relatively small mobile game development Studio looking for a really critical product higher uh for their organization so again we're doing an international search across North America across Europe and both explaining a little bit about okay what's the market reception been to this role here are some initial profiles look we're not saying they're necessarily perfect in every respect but we think they're really strong across the board for different reasons and and sort of guiding them uh through that um and then actually as well I think you know a lot of it is we're also in our own world right thinking about a l strategy and hiring for ourselves uh so that's a little bit of the job of course which people forget right we're all we're all building businesses ourselves uh and running them uh on our side and then it's a lot of you know it's it's talking to Canda it's a lot of updates a lot of you know for example one was uh responding some emails about an angel Syndicate coming out of turkey investing in games a new one which was really interesting right so again that's not say like immediately A Creative to the to to the search but actually is part of

that longer term being a part of the network another one was connecting someone who's made 20 Angel Investments to uh a seed Venture uh a seed fund um and and again thinking about okay well they've got all these portfolio companies maybe they need to know their seed fund because when they start raising larger checks for their angel companies or preed companies going to seed so there's a lot of that going on as well which uh you know on top of meeting candidates assessing them writing emails to clients Etc so just a lot of calls and making connections that's that's basically what executive Head Hunters do and something that he talked about last episode is there's also that follow up with people who might not be with Executives who might not be looking for a job when you last talk to them but then every six months you kind of give the call hey how's it going what's happening you kind of reconnect and they might say hey it's you know projects are going really well I might be interested in something in about a year and then you set up oh

let's talk in in in six months again and that way you keep tabs to potential candidates that are coming up to L yeah the the lead time on on placing a great candidate in a role can be sometimes two three years right of relationship building and so much is around that timing magic because because these hard making these really top hires is is tricky and it requires a sort of a magic of timing opportunity life circumstances personal Ambitions you sometimes it's the kids leaving yeah leaving to go to university that's the Catalyst that's makes something think okay I'm going to uproot from Seattle and I'll go to London for you know a couple of years of fun so there's a lot of that and and I think this is the again sort of head hunting I think it looks on paper quite easy a lot of people think sometimes you're doing the think why is this so hard right but it's it there's actually a lot of stuff that's really difficult and this is why some takes years of these these relationship buildings to to have the right portfolio of candidates or or know when is the right time to make that call

to attract some of that Superstar quality uh talent to to a team yeah the way I see it is almost like mini m&a meaning that with m&a you're boiling the ocean you're you know you're you're trying to understand what's happening you're talking to everybody you're setting up a relationship with somebody who might be ready for an acquisition or ready for a sale and then that sale might actually happen in a year two three um and then just like with m&a the most difficult part is the postacquisition integration so making that deal work as we've seen like in m&a overall it's between 70 to 90% of deals fail to deliver value I would assume that with executive hires it could be I I don't know what the percentage is but it is also a difficult to bring a leader into an existing company and make that leader work and deliver value in a totally new setting with a totally new set of people Etc so would that be a correct assumption it's certainly it's certain a challenge you need to think very deeply

about and I suppose obviously a difference between m&a right and MMA you might be dealing with an organization of several thousand people right and the the the pivot speed of that or the ability to understand that right is extremely complex right why you have investment bankers spending thousands of hours going through the weeds of everything and charging for thousands well exactly um so so I with executive HS there's a Simplicity there of you're dealing with with one person and the organization and you can do a lot and you should do a lot to mitigate that risk some things for example which I think some clients do but more could be doing is around the referencing and not just about referencing in terms of did this person steal the the Silver Spoons at their last place or you know the sort of the very base checkr of you know was this person who they say they are and did they do a good job which I think a lot of people focus on the functional side you we really encourage our clients to

see the referencing as the on the start of the onboarding so mitigate your risk by really understanding who that person is what is the kind of environment they're going to thrive in because it's different for everyone and so of that that classic sort of for war is is forearmed and and you can see because when the magic is right there's huge value that is created Yes again sometimes it doesn't work out and again there's a lot of volatility in in an organization right where the company looks like in a year or 18 months time might be a very different company and therefore you know things cannot work out for for just reasons out of out of everyone's control but but you we see a lot of you know a lot of Executives going for three foure stints going on to deliver exits you know we just had uh somebody replaced earlier this year as part of a series a company we put them as a a CFO they've just raised 17 million euros uh the lady we put in there she's absolutely world worldclass uh CFO and she's gone in there and added

value and helped in their their next the journey so those are the kind of stories that we love to hear and and actually again you do have that massive multiplier there so michig the easy question was say that we had a lot more value than investment bankers really because actually I think we get a higher hit rate of uh uh Executives adding value than probably m&a deals uh doing that okay posts and comments from the investment bankers listening in I'm sure yeah well they do charge way more so uh it's whoever wins at the end step into the future of game monetization with exola the premier partner for game developers seeking to expand their reach in Revenue exola provides a robust Suite of tools designed to enhance user acquisition maned subscriptions and streamlined Payment Solutions worldwide unlock new markets and maximize profitability through their customized secure payment architecture and dedicated support team exola power and game develop velers to

achieve Global [Music] success well let's talk about how to get what's the best way to get into the seait and let's let's start off with definition what is a SE Su jard so the SE Suite obviously the chief uh Chief Suite uh chief executive officers Chief Operating officers Etc uh uh within that I think so when there's a number of facets to this question so first of all if you're if you're in an IC role or you're in a manager role listening to this and you're thinking okay how do I how do I get up the chain I think it is it is helpful to think of it as a bit of a pyramid of skills right and as you move up in terms of seniority you have more breadth of responsibility across the organization and to mirror that to yourselves then you know if you want to go up there you have to grow broader yourself to to move up up those wrongs

and and and classically obviously most of the start in in an individual contributor role that I see level you know to move up in that is a lot of focus on craft a lot of um you rewards for how good you are doing that that functionality of that job and then we have sort of you know vision of the of that the more manager level which is about you know more leadership how you're organizing the team how you're motivating them around a set of objectives and getting them going so sort of you move moving and developing those skills to move up to that more manager to director level and then you know once we start getting to really the vice president and the SE Suite it's very similar I think of often in organizations that the kind of qualities you're looking for you that becomes more about strategic Direction and initiative and broader Vision setting uh across the organization and I think you know there the shift from the execution of the plan and some sort of autonomy with that to really setting the the vision for the

function and having a much broader context of what that means and and really a sort of a really understanding the vision of the company I think it requires a sort of a selflessness or or some sort of ability to really understand the bigger picture rather than simply like these are my objectives I'm doing a good job you know like this is good for me and my team to really understand and take a step back and say well okay but for the company we're not going in the right direction and it might be in a different function it might be a function as a stakeholder to me but I'm going to be the person who steps up and wrestles with that understands that is because that pivotally is is successful for the company's vision of where we're trying to go and we're all in the same boat and and proactively just chase after the most important things consistently and set that prioritization is I think a key part of that se level uh uh executive um uh

qualities uh that you're looking for and as a bit of a warning I might say to people because I think this can be a common thing that again perhaps you'll sat there as a director thinking like I could do that right like they don't seem to do that much or like I'm so ready for this this next level of role and I and I don't understand maybe why I'm not getting it and again we see that sometimes with again people aren't you know sort of sometimes struggling with that sort of like well I feel like I'm ready for the stup up or you know of course I'm at that level already and you know I probably should been there already I I would say that that sometimes sounds like a man thinking about the role well I I I think um I think there can just be a level of if you're thinking that probably actually like every role you get into once you're doing the role it's more tricky than it looks from the outside right and I think we've all been that sort of you know I remember thinking once I'm partner at my old firm like you know it's all going to be easy but it's not easy right there's just other challenges and and actually

all those High those important meetings you think you're missing out on you then attend them and they are deathly dull and they're go around in circles me think gosh I just wish I go back and do my day job here because we spent two hours achieving nothing here no hyperbolic but but it can be like that and I think you people will be laughing I hope I hope who recognize some of that so um but I was going to say that perception of like it gets easier or like I could do what they could do if you think that it might be more a sign actually that you're you're not ready right and I think actually I I think we see that from hiring managers who are actually kind of suspicious of somebody who maybe doesn't get the if you don't understand where the gaps are the sort of the fear that they don't know what they don't know right as a candidate is very high and it's quite hard to perceive that from your own Viewpoint if you're if you are that person who's trying to move up because you keep running into this wall of thinking I've got all that I've got all that I can do this job and it's you know I would encourage people to go back just talking about growth or bre right think about all the things you don't have right and being really curious about that and

acknowledging that and then working on okay now I don't have this but actually would be a really good answer to show that I am thinking like that or I could you go out and find those examples of okay well this is what we were asked to do but actually I just didn't think it was important so I got on the call with the CEO I I convinced them of this and my boss but the CMO and the CEO or whoever it is right and I said I think this is the wrong strategy and then that turned into something else and then we got that going and I got support you know those kind of stories would really make somebody sit up I think and go wow I this person is not just good at their job which everyone applying for the job is going to be good at their job right but to really sort of stand out as a as a spike of the you know the few percentile of people who move up to that uh that that level yeah I can give an example it was quite frustrating for me because I did not understand in the beginning when I was uh at in a certain company sitting in a management team meetings and the seeser when we were discussing were often saying yeah but

that's a tactical point we need to think strategically and I was like what do you even mean like it was hard to grasp what is strategic and what is tactical and it took quite a while of time of zooming out seeing the market as a whole even broader than the market and and understanding like what are the broad lines kind of getting on the same context level with the seit and then making suggestions through that aspect and I think like cuz because people would be like well how do I concretely get into that position how can I concretely make the right suggestions and and formulate right ideas from my vantage point and the thing is you need to change your Vantage Point in order to be aligned with the executive team or with the CIT to then kind of speak the same language and see the same challenges uh but but yeah like I think that's M I say that that's such a great example though of of not understanding even what strategy is right and I think most of us do not understand it no I

don't think you're alone right we're not taught about it in our education system nobody sits you down and S says like this is what strategy is and this is what it means you know you get taught how to do economics or maths or you know whatever it is right how to write a good essay but but very few education systems that I'm aware of at least really sit you down and sort of say like well okay like this is how you could do something good but over a period of four or five years you know like there's you know a company's got a better strategy or a smarter player that's playing into what the market wants it's going to just find it easier and do better than the company that's working very hard but on a poor strategy and and there is and I think you know again for people listening to this again who who are mentors themselves I'd really encourage that because I think once I understood it myself I was kind of quite Keen to get my team to understand it and it can be again I think some managers are thinking well it's not in their day-to-day job right but again strategically if you want to grow people through your organization giving them that that awareness is really helpful because again sometimes just aware Ness and

again I meet you know some top level C leaders and and they are so they're always so good about that the sort of the communication to the team right even if it's a tough message if it's an honest one and you're saying like this is the direction we're on it means some hard challenges or it means some sacrifice or we've all got to work harder for the next six months because look we're in trouble guys right like to get out of this and you know get out of the hole this is what's going to take and if you have that respect and honesty with people you can do wonders and and really get them into that again they need to know every detail but but have a sense of versus again I've seen examples where Clos box leadership is terrified of letting anyone know what's going on and then it falls apart because people are disenfranchised they don't have the context they see decisions being made and they get frustrated so I think I think strategy is you could do probably a whole not just podcast a whole podcast series on strategy um and what it means and and how to dive into it but I think that's that's a really good point michig yeah yeah yeah that that's a that that's at least been my experience and also the

content on deconstructor fund is now balanced quite well between Str strategic content and tactical content tactical content being what I initially thought that was most important deconstructions of different games you know some some Market channels that are popping up and like these sort of a things that can improve your products your profitability your revenue on a short term um and then strategically zooming out looking at the market as a whole finding growth Pockets finding different trends that might be affecting different elements even looking outside of the gaming understanding why certain things are happening and then diving deeper and creating strategies around how to um how to operate in a changing environment and take advantage rather than being taken advantage of so that's in short but but let's kind of move in into like more tactical stuff uh let's say uh because strategically in order to be a seor you need to be strategic right that's a really easy summary uh and then have that strategic mindset but when it

ter when it comes to recruitment of C into the chief positions how important it is to write insightful stuff on LinkedIn and attend podcast to show your face and build your brand so a lot of these are derived from the community these questions I'm going to clean them up a little kick ass liveops need kickass tools that's where heroic Labs comes in they just released a massive update to their sator liveops platform and having done my research I can say with confidence that it's second to none in a single product you get everything you need including event capture player segmentation feature Flags remote configuration AB testing experimentation live events calendar messaging retention grafing analytics and so much more if you're serious about running live services in a game get serious about the tools you use conect with heroic labs and make some serious cheese with your

live Ops so how important is brand building so there's different levels of that right so so I'd say it is really important to build brand but I don't mean it in the context of necessarily being on LinkedIn or or or you know there you don't have to be an influencer uh I think that that's what I would say so you know brand is you know and so when we're we're doing executive level roles we often have a set of assessment criteria so be four or five different criteria that we're marking a candidate against and giving them some sort of score against and that's a comparative score against other candidates in the process one of those will nearly always be what we call track record which is this sort of broad category which covers both you know how long have you been at organizations what did you achieve there what were the people you

grew while you were there you know what was their impact did they then go on to get promoted and go elsewhere and and do a good job what do people say about you in the market if we're to reference you um if we can name drop I somebody like somebody like Chris petrick for example who you were on a panel with recently right here is someone who who's that I'm just kidding so um and also petrich just sorry exactly so so you know he's so for those who don't know he's the um Chief business offer at fun plus he's a very senior executive at zingga before that so his reputation is phenomenal right like people know about it like and people you're smiling there right like and it's it's not because he does these conferences or whatever right like he was somebody who is well known right and he's got this great track record and you know he's somebody that people are oh wow you know so and there are lots of examples that but i s picked him up because I saw michig you you've done a a conference with him recently so

there was a name he's my Batman whenever I need a seor for a panel I just fly in the the petrovich brand on on the wall and he flies in and saves the DAT yeah so but but again like he's got great insights and again I could pick pick your but there there's many many people you'd say but the it's not because the sort of the brand piece at the end or the the public bit is after the fact that he's he's already got this really wide uh reputation and there's there's good people getting on the investors you get I can name drop people but then other people get offended like why didn't you name drop me but but I was just thinking of so so brand is really important it's a really small world and I've been at conference there's so many conferences and michig I'm sure you've been at these where you're at a conference and you just somebody says like oh Gino X like yeah they're already you know all like yeah they're good you know and there's a lot of that going on a huge amount and and it's almost like your subconscious you don't what's going on your subconscious you also don't really know how who's talking about you

in the market what they're saying um and actually I I think again I've got so many clients Chief Executives you say like oh you know you present a candidate they're like oh I know the CEO I'm texting them now you have say stop that so can't they don't even haven't even told their boss they're leaving right but there there's you know the connectivity there and again you've got to remember a lot of CEOs they spend all their time like just connecting and being aware of the market they're very often very outward focused and and also they hang out with other you know Founders and all the rest so they are going to be able to reference you and your and your brand there so I think you know it's sort of just perhaps most it's kind of fundamentals right I'd say focus on those of you having those really good runs where you at somewhere for three to five years you know if it's if it's two years I'll be honest like if you have too many twoyear stints in your career people are going to be looking at that and saying but what did they do right what did they do and I again there's I don't want to demoralize I don't want who's got a lot of those those stints on their on their career because because there are life

circumstances things happen and you know all of that but actually if you're really thinking okay if you're finding a blocker to go get that next level role I would say to you you have that sort of three to five year career really invest in people in your team not just yourself that you could say well you know hey these are my Advocates these are the people I grew um you know invest in those relationships as said being strategic being that sort that sort of that that player who's thinking about more broadly about the um the challenge that when they call up your boss one day and say that what would they like they go wow they just made my life so much easier right and and again those are the things that that again are hard to do in the moment but actually over a period of time are your personal brand I think those are important you in terms of LinkedIn profile and all the rest I I don't I mean it's important if you're trying to do business development or or something like that if you've got a particular angle to go do it um one caveat there are certain roles um that will will be looking for more of a a public profile for those positions so

for example you might have a chief technology officer they say like we need some to send them to the conferences right so all these Tech so so you know it helps our hiring of Engineers right it raises our brand profile is comfortable going on uh the number one podcast in the world deconstruct fund they're just comfortable coming on these podcasts or whatever it is and raising the profile so there there are specific jobs again they tend to be at larger organizations where the role is you know it's about brand building in some some senses so um being comfortable with public speaking or learning how to like build that process could be helpful in those those particular uh cases yeah that makes sense like publishing roles or anything where you need to be building the the um the visibility of the company but that's a that's a phenomenal advice and I hope that people who are in mid level of their careers or like mid you know however you put in like few years into

their careers understand this that that spending longer sance something that I wish I would have heard uh much earlier is is super beneficial and even though it gets hard or even though not not hard but even though it's like there's changes in the organization or even if you receive a very interesting offers from other organizations just focus on building what you have and and Gathering those three to fivey year um projects with a clear outcome before moving on to the next challenge would that be the way and I think and also and it's hard to it is hard to do from foresight or have the foresight but but when you're thinking about taking a role think really deeply because again if you're sort of a bit oh I don't know like if this is where I want to be right and you think I'll do it for a year and a half two years and then it was move on right like and it's very hard to know that but and again people have life circumstances they need jobs you all the rest so if you can though really think very deeply and be

quite picky about the right opportunity for you I mean again you're going to do better in that role right and be happier personally but you're you're more likely to go build that and if there are you know I think I think sometimes and people aren't picky enough about the roles they're taking um or or they're they're looking at the wrong criteria they're looking at salary right or they're looking at like size of Team Management and yeah and again I think it's easy to say on a podcast but in reality you know when you're actually looking at roles you do sort of go like well that one's paying more right like oh that was bigger team and I want to get management experience but actually those are very much secondary criteria if you really want to go and build your career over longer term and invest in yourself go join that CEO who you think is absolutely Stellar right whatever the company looks like almost right go join that team that you thought wow they seem switched on they're really driving things because they will have a good reputation in the market even if it's not successful you know if they are like

top quality people they'll be like oh you worked with them like you must be tough right you must be good versus you go to a bigger brand or whatever but is a bit sluggish or whatever you know if you go take the paycheck whatever then that's again no judgment on on any choices but I think some those people may not be aware of the decisions they're making that affect that longer term brand in in the moment yeah so being strategic about where you work in a longer term and building your career throughout the longer term I would say like like personally uh my advice from my mistakes is to have somebody who's mentoring you because often times being reflective and understanding the long-term impetus uh with with all the choices that you have Etc you know few of us can do that and that's why you have mentors that's why you have other people who would sit down with you like okay let's let's walk this through let's see what what situation this could lead to I know I've done this with with other people and by the way funniest thing is even though I have a

lot of short like those twoyear positions I always advise others not to leave not to leave and like continue like just be there it's fine I know this is like usually it's around management changes and the people changes there's a new boss that is coming in and that's when that usually causes a lot of uh directors up to to uh to consider other positions I'm like you know just be there for a for a year look it's a great brand it's you're getting a great salary just focus on your team like exactly the things that you were saying and so having a mentor who's more looking after you throughout the long term would be very beneficial and allow you to make those strategic decisions rather than being reactive to what's happening know michig actually there's a there's a point I want to rais on this podcast what's the import of mentorship actually and and finding good mentors can really accelerate you uh in in your career in professional development and and even if it again either can be an informal Mentor I would also recommend people particularly when they're getting to that direct VP level to invest in a

professional Mentor if it's if it's a paid relationship as well um you go and do it because you can you know better better returns than putting on Market in the stock market right or investing in in early stage companies right if you invest in yourself and they provide two three insights that unlock something for you I mean a you reap the personal benefit of not struggling right we all struggle with things of like why isn't this getting easier why am I if somebody can unlock that for you it's it's gives you personal benefit of of satisfaction but also professionally it can really it really uh forc you know I give one example actually I had a had a client who the relationship was going very poorly with uh very very poorly with and I thought it was your relationship with that with the client yeah we had a really and it was it was the only one of that year and I was confused and I I was like well I think it's them right I think they're just difficult people it's not me it's you and and I had a mentor and they sat me down they went they went through it and they sort of showed me that actually it really was I had been

winding them up in various ways unintentionally but like through my own behaviors and my own sort of wanting to help in a certain way I had been upsetting this these people and and this client and and that was a really tough lesson for me to absorb was to sort of like oh it is me you know like it actually is me like you know sometimes you think oh you know it's not not you know it's other people or whatever you know you takeing the blame unfairly but and that was actually so it was one of the toughest uh professional growth period me I was really almost you it was tiring almost going through it but it it really unlocked something for me uh and and came through and I think well you know now I can handle that kind of client better in the future and that is worth 10 20x whatever I paid in in in mentorship fees so um it really can can pay back hugely and okay and do you does mission one provide mentorship connections or like how does it work yeah so not as a a professional sort of service as it were but no we do do a lot of that just informally so I think you know one

question that is helpful is people think about how do you leverage a head hunter right and I I'd say this I think most people think okay when I'm looking for a job I will call up a head hunter um and and that makes sense right like okay they might have whatever or I'll I'll you know when I'm thinking about certain positions um the breadth of relationship with a head hunter can be and should be um uh so General connectivity you know so like you know like who in the market is is interesting to know a lot of that can be with investors I know I know deconstructor has their own views on the venture capitalist funds and all the rest but we will uh you know a lot of people who might be thinking down the line okay what if I want to raise funding or the or the venture capitalist they've got wide portfolio of of areas so they can be a you know we can be connecting you into people outside of a direct mandate so again that goes back to longer term relationships there a running theme of that longer term investment right because it might take two three years for that relationship pay off but invest now and and reap

later um uh mentorship is another one right like you know who could we who connect and again I've I've probably done that more proactively than being asked I've some said something like oh you should meet X and Y and you guys get on and you have good good good conversations in in the market um and then Market Intel as well can be another just way that you can you can be leveraging now um again like people are busy right as well and we're missing connections and and and running around the place so again so don't don't be rejected or feel if you're trying to get get all this stuff from a head hunter you're you're talking to and it's you know you're thinking like oh why AR they like calling back as Pro because they're just super busy and you know we're all under projects and pressure but if you do have them on the phone I think you know I mean it's it's a general thing of life and I I'll say this that you know one of the early questions what do you have to get to do the SE Suite so you know I've worked on sea level rols with riots with King most recently with Savvy games work can see level roles with those guys and people people say like oh this must be super hard searches like really

difficult and you know a truth of that actually is that they're really often like the most lovely because actually the candidates who really got to those really top top roles their low ego and they want to get to know you they have that ability to make you feel like you're a really important person they're talking to that day and and there's a sort of a breadth of their conversation they want to build a relationship you for longer term value so so if you think about that's how people at the very very top of the organization of Behaving sometimes have a reflection on that because I think sometimes again there can be that that temptation to be more transactional with people because we all think we've got to be efficient with our time right we live in this culture uh particularly sort of uh any anyone com from a Protestant country uh Roots like that sort of you know like productivity time efficiency there can be that real push and we think we got to do that to be successful but actually you know at the very top they are very efficient at their time but they make it feel like you know that this is this is your time and this is this is special because actually that gets the best out of years ahe H you're then ingratiated towards

them right they're smart in doing this but I would encourage people to think about that as well of of how you interact with head hunters and and not just seeing as a transaction because then you'll become more commoditized to them as well um and that's how the very best people are are doing it yeah so personal relationships matter interesting who would have thought well but again I I you know I do get to this point of there's so much obvious advice out there that is poorly absorbed right that we sort of know but we don't do and I I I see that a lot actually and again particularly that like direct uh VP level again I think there is a distinction of actually like really mastering some of this simple stuff again I don't I don't think there is any magic bottle of success and you've got to rout through 1,000 books to find it right like most principles of how to be successful in life I think are are fairly fundamental but we we don't want to do them well or we don't understand them well enough to do uh consistently and or or we just don't but I I would go

back to like we just don't see it ourselves like we're so in that moment like you just described like you did not understand what was the problem and you thought the client was the problem not you and and that's why like I'll go back to it like my biggest mistake personally is not having consistent Mentor throughout the time because that that really helps you to kind of get out of the we out of the day-to-day and and really look at yourself from a perspective and be like hey like this is you know it's it's it's so simple from somebody else who's not you to tell to tell what you're doing wrong or tell what you're doing right but when you're there when you're when you're having these moments whatever it is in a in a company like there are frust frustrating periods whether you have a new boss or so forth uh that kind of change everything and and you are thinking in that moment you're thinking about the next day you're not thinking about what's happening in a year so so that that there's that this podcast is brought to you by apps flyer in today's Digital World

understanding your apps Journey from Discovery to download is more than just insightful it's essential enter apps flyer the leader in Mobile attribution and marketing analytics that allows you to measure the full potential of your marketing efforts making every ad dollar work smarter with apps flyer that's your new reality dive deep into Data driven insights that reveal exactly where your users come from and how they interact with your app apps lier where your apps potential meets performance but um um I wanted to ask you about something that well actually one one simple question like where do you feel like the candidates make most of their mistakes when they're in that executive Search process is it that transactional approach of not having good relationship set up with uh with the Head Hunter or I think I think that that is a they could be doing that better but actually I think there's a more obvious mistake

that people are making in processes which again is fundamental and unforgivable when you think about it which is is lack of preparation for for interviews and I you look surprised Mig and you should be right you're thinking well these are people who've got to a certain level in their careers they should know to prepare but I see it consistently they haven't really like downloaded the app they haven't played the game they haven't like played it enough to have like deep views on it and it's such known goal because you're saying like oh if you've you know and again do it when you're if you're in a process with a head hunter do it when you're talking to them don't think you know that you know they're a part of the process right we're we're the first gate of this process so if we're saying like have you had a chance to play the app you say oh I haven't haven't downloaded it like well we called you up a week ago you know like where's the Curiosity right like it just shows like lack of curiosity or lack of taking this seriously and again we I'm not saying you're dead in the water right if you've done that and you're panicking right you're not at all but like there are so many soft signals that you're giving off

all the time again like we often think about the big signals of like well I did this with the team and it was very successful therefore like I'm a good person right or whatever like the big the big sort of blocks but there is there is so much there around talk about culture right or or or nuances of like just how if you think about the most successful people you've met or the most impressive people you met they're doing many subtle things that make make what they're saying better right where they're being more slightly more concise bit more prepared whe they look you in the eye more directly whether they you know there's there's number of different things that they're just a shade or two more polished about which elevates them above above you know an experience with other people and you know I would I would really encourage people to do do your prep take it really seriously because it's it's a sign to the client and I I we had this a lot from the clients like oh it's a bit disappointing they had had more chance to look at the product right because they they're desperate if you come in and go like I had you know first of all be be nice

about it be nice about the client's product right they they love it you know whatever you think of it and you might think it needs a lot of changes but find saying you know and be honest but you know find you know appreciate the the work that's gone in and then show you have that passion for like wanting it to get better in some way or other and then have a real conversation and that is going to draw them out so much because you you're talking about you know it's like talking somebody about their kids right like like oh yeah like I I am so glad to find somebody else who's really interested in my kids right and you you're like oh I didn't you know it's it's it's sort of again we might do it in Social circumstan whatever but but that is it's super simple but I see it so many times and just it's very easy to to uh go through the other one about I think going into a process from candidates so I would say is be be kind about the process and what I mean about the interview process because a lot of interview processes and this is from the client side are not run particularly well in my opinion right and again I don't know um I won't I won't name drop

but there's a big company we don't work with but they they're Hing a lot in games and uh everyone sort of says about their process like oh yeah like I think I'm quite close to the final round and then you call them two months later like I still think I'm quite close to the final round right like and um you know so and this is true of really big organizations it's true of 20 people startups we've worked with that a lot of them have either slow processes if they're bigger um there's a lot of repe ition in the questioning so again if you're a client listening to this really think deeply about it because that's not a great experience for the client the candidate to have go I met the fourth person and they ask me the same questions I've already been asked three times right and it's it does happen that again it happens with big organizations or it happens with you know um organizations you think better of um uh and with particularly smaller ones though as well where it's just you know everyone is is asking the same stuff so um but from the candidate side as much as I'm sort criticizing the client side there from the candidate side have an empathy for for that a little bit and

maybe just expect that you know these people are not necessarily World specialists in running an internal hiring process particularly if they're a small organization so might the first sea level executive they're hiring first VP level executive they're hiring and I I just sometimes see people get frustrated and I can understand it but I think just again a little bit of like go into it with a sort of a charitable sort of uh understanding and go and even see it as an opportunity to like feedback and say like hey like I've really enjoyed the process but just FYI like I want you to just purely as a like hey I think this would help your candid experience like I got asked the same question about like my ability to run you know 30 person team 100 person whatever four times and the answer is still the same so I just wanted to feed that back and and just hope that you're getting right what you need and right you know you getting all that you need from this if you phrase it like that then that can change a sort of bit grumpy about their so like you know it's not a good sign of professionalism to um you know again people people aren't necessarily specialists in this uh and and then they're not always you it's part of our job to try and Coach the

client as well but it's helpful when the candidates giving it to us but then we can you feed it on in a nice way and that can actually become another part of the process which can be positive experience for the client right flip that round to like how am I presenting myself even better through this rather than I'm going to complain about it or get disengaged or get grumpy about it that makes sense so two points that you just to summarize it is that don't get frustrated and it's so easy uh I understand especially especially with with a seit hard because for for the company when they're bringing in a new leader it's also a big risk for the company like they have to you know it's it might be a cultural hit it might be this might be that but but the second part is is that in the interview process you you know in form of empathy like you have to understand that that other executives are interviewing you and so they their days are probably pretty busy in order to get through that whole schedule it's quite hard you know i' I've worked at some companies where we had one day with a candidate that was

quite effective so every executive would have about 30 to 45 minutes with a person who would be visiting the office and it would be like a full day for that person but I understand that that's not always possible and and that can drag on the process yeah and again that's there's a lot there I think about you could go into like what does it take to run a good process right and and I think I agree I think getting people in for a day is fantastic right because it gives a a bit more of a concentrated experience of what's it like to work at this company and you know here is and we're moving on to some of the stuff around like what would you advise clients right and I think you've always got to understand there's two sides to what you're trying to do which which is obviously one side is assess is this the right person the other side should be to get this person super super excited about the role and I think you know I'm sort of putting an emphasis there because I think a lot of people go like oh yeah you've got to like make them you got to sell right and that's someone's like yeah you I know I've I've got to do that sure and to a

certain extent like I really really encourage anyone listen to there like ramp that up ramp that up because the best candidates it's like if you want to go whatever whatever sport you're into right to to football socc whatever like if you want to go get the guy who scored the the winning goals in the Champions League final right like they're G to going to go jooy the very best clubs right and and mostly we all want the top top talent and and we sort of think like going into the process we' got to like assess are they good enough are they good enough right like but but to get those all those top people all the people who are really good enough they know them their Market worth they're going to be highly sought after and you're only going to get them or like you can get an edge by really showing them all love like wow you know make them feel special and treasured through the process and I maybe going a bit too far it but I think you so many people just like take it like oh yeah know we're going to sell and tell them a great company and then like oh they should get it right like no no no you've got to be you got to be if you really want to get those top people you gotta

be wowing them over right like and it's you know and I think you know again with those days of assessment again a lot of execs going in are prepped okay here's the four things you got to assess right like there a marketing role marketing function technical role whatever like GM role like you know whatever it is and they'll go through their list um but in said they've got busy days right they've they're on to the next thing they haven't sort of seen the process they're sort of thinking like oh like they're looking this high from like is this good for me right and I think really sort of communicating that if you're the board or or the CEO of a company communicating that to those people in the interview process saying look by the way let's make sure this person goes away feeling like wow that was a really like enjoyable interesting experience and and like I felt like really interested in versus like I felt like I was being drilled for 40 minutes uh and like I you know you don't mean again I don't know if you've ever had that exp michig but it can I've had I've had most craziest

experience I mean I've been in the business for 15 years I've had I had the most ridiculous experiences and also some of the great ones so let me not talk about the the ridic ridiculous but let me kind of comp on you what you were saying I'll name two companies that that in my opinion kind of like seriously influence the way I think about hiring Talent uh scopely and wugo like throughout the years like both of them were very much like let's get you on site let's let's um let's spend time together inside the office kind of going through these things but also outside the office like having dinner going out for drinks and kind of like creating this sort of U feeling of of you'd be joining a team a group of people who you like being with and and that's uh that's something that that I don't think people think enough it's like not only the work and most important part I think are the people that You' be working with and if you really create that connection that personal connection it's like oh these these people are awesome I'd love to be

with them uh they're so communicative we had fun inside the office it was interesting and then outside the office they were very personal uh wuga also did this this interesting thing at least back in the days is that um they would invite you to Berlin and they would also invite your spouse or partner and because relocation is I think we need to talk about relocation a little bit but that's a tough challenge for the spouse and if they are not able to or if they don't like where they're going your um your likelihood of succeeding in your job and staying for a long time is probably close to zero and so they would bring the both of you together and while you were spending some time at the office they would you know kind of tell you all the places where your spouse can go uh kind of see the city enjoy it um imagine how it would be like they would you know kind of encourage you to stay for the weekend I thought I think that was great because you're making the decision together it's not only you

who's making the decision about the relocation it's you and your partner that are making the decision and so when you're there having a weekend in Berlin maybe sitting on a on dinner or maybe flying back what did you think and it' be like yeah it was really cool City I think we should consider this like let's go so these are kind of like the companies that I would like to highlight is the ones that create that personal connections with the people who interviewed you who follow back to you saying hey was great meeting you it was so much fun maybe outside the office as well as understanding that that the person is not coming often alone and let's make sure that they are excited to where they're coming from that their spouses in case of relocation M you really highlighted again I think an eror which is actually really important but again it it highlights how many things there are to think about in in an interview process right and again I think we all sort of here zero in on a little bit of like assessing the right people or like the comp package being right you know some of those big blockers but you know exactly if you fight even again even class of flight

that you're offering someone you know again if this person's really a worldclass person or whatever it is right you're trying to get into your organization don't make it a Challen you don't start being like again mostly first class but you know again if it's a long flight do business class for them right like and it is expensive but again think about the factor cost of getting the wrong person in the role or not Hing this role six months a lot of these costs are actually tiny in comparison to to the opportunity cost or the impact cost and again if they go and say that was easy that was a great experience you know me and my spouse loved This and like oh you know and they they made sure we stayed in the right area and they told us about some local schools whatever it is right it's again it's it's all these going back to those soft signals right like they layer on top of each other and that can actually help you much more than the bigger things you're thinking about like well there's a lot of risk here because a lot of equity in the in the role or okay you know whatever it is that you're your your concern your other challenges you're concerned about why they might not take it because okay is a relocate that's going to be tall way if you layer up these many things both consciously

and subconsciously that candidate is getting more excited about who you are so I think that's a really again it's a niche point but it's it's all these little bits you can be putting together to get to that top percentile of of hirers or hiring processes yeah yeah the cada needs to feel good about like they You're Expecting the candidate to do their homework to be truly interested to come prepared to come up with a plan to you know um work well with the with the existing team you're expecting them to not get frustrated if your process a little bit on the shoulder side but you also have to like you're interviewing a top candidate that that you're trying to sell to like this candidate probably talking to other companies they don't need to leave the company that they're working with and so you need to put your first foot forward and kind of make sure that that the relationship happens because in the end the way I believe it it's not that you're going to make the decision because X company pays 10% more or the equity package is you know a little bit larger there you're going to

make the decision because you feel great about that yeah and at least that's how I maybe maybe just me one of one of the the best candidates I in terms I met and played a very senior role we placed him over at twitch um uh I was about say I might not be able to flish off the story actually I realized I might have identified them too much actually okay I won't say but I would say uh I've say the in the most broadest of terms but I've known people who have really made sacrifices from their own situation to go to a company they believed in the trajectory of right and and and were really super excited by that opportunity that they were you know they could have gone and earned more elsewhere like significantly more elsewhere or could have you know got got title or larger teams but at that point in time again this was years ago twit is not the company SP uh um but you know at that point in time it was the right decision and again you sort of and that person has said one of the very best candidates I've seen in in in in North America or Europe and they made that

decision um based on all those other things that we obviously you almost think all you know as a head us like well you can't get this person because you're not in the right range right but because you do everything else right they're able to see beyond that and you're able to go and get that sort of world-class talent to your organization that that you might you know off the Box you'd be like no you can't get that person what are you talking about but if you run the right process you can you can sometimes just find that that little bit of uh uh way in to to get them say this is what I want to do and I'm excited by this yeah um again going back to invest into into relationships it's not transactional like we like to put everything into this mathematical equation but you know people people want to be with other people they they're not transactional and and I hope as well that it's not coming across this is this is difficult I'm not saying this you've got to go like read four books on there like you know it's sort of complex it's just it's just that sort of sense of sometimes

taking that step back and sort of putting yourself in their shoes as the candidate think like how easy was this how excited would I be if I was a candidate how how much love am I feeling from you guys that you're excited to work with me Beyond like hey we got a cool job you obviously want it are you good enough for us right and again it's that sort of like that sort of trap you can sort of fall into um uh there so again it's it's not it's no no Rockets science or no sort of extra books you have to read I think to to make some small changes to really lift up the process yeah back in the days just a like Airbnb used to I don't know if they do it now but I remember reading their strategy they were always like encouraging the people who would put their you know Apartments into Airbnb to to kind of consider it from the perspective of the uh the the visitor and adding those small tiny elements and they would have this like range of of like what makes it more and more awesome and then that's the way you put it like put yourself in into that position keep on improving in the process and think

about what would be great even if it's like a gift basket at at the hotel or something like that that those tiny things but when you get there you're like oh this is this is pretty great they really care yeah and and also we're talking about brand here and employer brand right you're thinking about okay what how what advice can I give you to go and get the best talent again it isn't just about this surge so even the candidate who didn't get the job and we go back to that Network right somebody else might go I'm going to interview with X what do you think about them and if that Cy didn't get the job had a reasonable experience they're going to say yeah you know it was okay but a bit Ked at the process and like I didn't you know I didn't quite understand why I didn't get the job and well that stuff will come out and again that might impact you in a way you never know about because you might not even know that conversation happened and somebody drops out and says oh I'm sorry like I'm just not looking for a role right now you're like oh well that's a shame but you you you just don't know actually what what has gone on behind it so you know Ju Just as you treat people in the right way and they they go and say nice things about you but as your company as well

that that can be a great and you can actually have you can have a candidate you hire who was average about the experience and you can have a candidate who didn't hire who would go away and say nice things about you right so you could it's not just about the success of the of the outcome it's it's really worth thinking about that that it it can impact your brand longer term that's true I never took the role with Wugga that was in 2013 and I still think positively hey you but again like what's the return on that like 10 11 years later they're getting a shout out that's going out to thousands of people saying like you know great they're and that's going to feel good and and that is that's you can't that is a perfect example of of the publicity you can get right without even realizing it and the length of that that return shout out to wga uh well well talking talking about like regarding wga though I I mentioned the the relocation part you work with you know with companies in LA in Riad in Barcelona uh probably Singapore probably shenen like you name it um what are the

some of the unique challenges or benefits in relocating gaming Executives or app executive internal internationally so in terms of the benefits of of that or the challenges of hiring both like like look how are you want it like let's tackle it on let's start tackling it on whatever side you want to go first what is the challenge or what what the the benefits so so to take something more granted so for example in Mobile gaming right I know obious you got a big big audience within in Mobile gaming yeah the talent pool is not equal across North America and Europe there's different genres that have had more success in different areas and there's a higher density of talent so for match three Europe has some really great you know Europe and obviously turkey as well has has some really fantastic uh match three Talent there are fewer big successes in Match 3 to have come out of

uh North America midcore gaming you've got more in North America I'd say you know in terms of the talent pool there and that's partly because I think there more of that sort Triple A it's a little bit more PR I think it's a bit more prestigious to a certain degree and I'd be curious if anyone sort of comes in on that but I've heard that from from a CE in the US recently said I think that that people feel that like the Casual end is you know if you're in LA or or in San Francisco it can be historically seen as like less prestigious in terms of like Casal end than Europe where I think we've embraced it a little bit more with Helsinki and Stockholm and all these great successes that that have come out um so so having a think about where is the density of talent pool that we're going for you know if you're looking for data and analytics Israel has phenomenal Talent right and again you know you can go more into Social Casino there even if you're in casual right so you got the side players and you know all the rest out of out of there and moon actives and all the rest so having an awareness for the specific role you are hiring for and the talent

density is is good right and that will help you and again a head hunter should know this they should be able to say like okay like here's where you want to go these are the kind of companies you want to you know go for and then you get more granular below that because actually some companies in recent years they haven't had the you know the culture hasn't been good or the games haven't been successful or you know whatever it is you to say well I don't think you know that's that's going to be again you always find a superstar at any company but again again you're trying to advise them around okay well where's where's the advantage of opening up the search and what you should be thinking about right and and where's the like the hierarchy of things uh for you so that's around some of the benefits of going International I think particularly within games if you go into broader consumer Tech like a lot of the the the the product talent that people want in Europe say is in North America right A lot of people like hey can we get the guy of San Francisco did Uber whatever is no you can't afford the guy like me forx the CER yeah exactly but um so so that's that's some of the

you know but I think actually one of the wonderful things been in the world of games is actually it's a really Diversified talent pool compared to a lot of other sectors which are very sort of concentrated around more specific cities you in a much narrower field and you know again I think it's wonderful you can go to Barcelona you go to Berlin you can go to I think France is you that scenes growing and growing there London obviously Stockholm Helsinki Istanbul right you've got all these wonderful Talent centers for for different games again Poland's growing for for PC console you know there's a lot there um that you can you can you can go and look at so um so that's one of the advantages um again if you want to get a little bit more granular you could start thinking about leadership qualities as well of like what's going to fit with your team and the cultural capacity aspect of that and they are real right like the companies operating in Finland are often very different from a company operating in London or Barcelona or Poland right and you've got yeah again exactly to the US even even more so right and um you know you don't

want to make too many generalizations but there are some fundamental things that around the C how do they communicate are they more collaborative more top down more analytics driven like numbers to data driven more sort of field driven you know there's different nuances there um both around management philosophy and game making uh uh philosophy so that's one things is to think about is is is the the benefits of of looking um the other side of that is you obviously there a question about relocation right are you going to relocate someone practically that's going to make things more expensive as we've just talked about right you got to put in a relocation package you've got to think about um you really like again maybe salary differentials if you're trying to hire somebody from a higher cost uh uh geography to to a lower uh lower cost one um uh uh there so there's a number of just practical uh challenges think about that if you're not going to relocate to think very deeply about um time zone differences if you're going to offer a remote role and I think you know

one Trend I would see over the last couple of years michiga would be at the start of searches people being quite open to more remote roles at the start of a search and then when they get to the the decision- making point they then start going oh actually five hours or you know from the US to Europe or either way actually dayto day that's kind of like oh but we've got our call at 6 p.m or 4 P p.m right every day and that's whatever time then you have your kids and everything yeah yeah so so actually so I would again if I can offer some advice to turn on listening to this who's thinking about you know remote versus I would say have a really deep think about how the time zones will work before you say oh yeah you know a transatlantic time zone difference is okay because I think people see it up front and say yep that's okay but when they actually get to the decision- making point they start to worry about about how that Dynamics is is is going to really operate in in practice it can do but it it does take a toll yeah yeah yeah that that's that's

definitely during that honeymoon stage you feel like everything is possible and and when the real life comes it's like with the commutes you might think that an hour and some is not that bad and then once you add that every day more and more and then that might be actually the reason why you decide to leave the job because the commute becomes too daunting even though in the beginning you thought that it's not that bad there's pod you can listen to Etc yeah no and and and same for weekly commutes or hybrid commute you know I'll do three days a week in Berlin and two days in my home in London or Barcelona it's kind of fun to fly over to Barcelona for a few days and do that for two three years it it adds up and again actually just from the candidat side a lot of candids we see are happy in their roles they say but you know what the time zone difference the team's everywhere the like you know it's is wearing after a while so of attrition it will it will s of increase the likelihood that that personal churn after two or three years if there's no sort of change in that setup yeah and then the other challenge

is of course the spouses when you talk about relocation I remember this even back from the business school like this was the number one reason why an expat um exp what do you call it expat stint doesn't work out is the spouses it's not the skill set it's not the culture it's not any of that it's just at home you you come back home from work and somebody hates being there every single day and once to get out and at that point you basically just end up leaving cuz you can't can't take it so totally normal yeah and it's much more and again it's an obvious point but it's much much more of an international marketplace for candidates right nowadays as well they don't don't like it right it's much more easier for them to to hop across and change if you know to a place they want to live uh uh let me let me ask you a question by the way regarding that do you see that there are executive candidates who are working on site or hybrid which is the worst form of them all we can talk about that in the other instances but you they're working on site and they've been offered

an executive and they don't like it or they don't want to do it and they've been offered an executive position that is fully remote is that compelling to them or not like is that have you seen that being fact not so much that way around no I I would in terms of people who working on site being tempted by a more fully remote role um yeah that that's that's the that's the the remote people's kind of like selling argument this the better it would be if they've got a poor commute exactly so if they are you know it's two hours into La through the traffic type thing or you know or again it's those scenarios you just mentioned where like they agreed to like three days a week in Barcelona and they live in London or Hing whatever um then yes that would be they would prefer to go fully remote so to your point the hybrid sort of model either hybrid or if they've got a very bad commute or you know again if there's no one else around then those are those are demoralizing factors that make them more likely to look at uh fully uh fully remote but no I think I think if people have got a good I mean it's like I mean

again there's of no magic here right like if they've got a good in-person working culture they're probably going to say no that's not attractive to go lead that um you family situation could be different if they've got again family members like a spouse who's doing a job where they would prefer to be based somewhere else I mean I remember a very cool candidate saying to me like their spouse was a was a superm model they're like oh they can only work in these fashion like yeah such a like oh yeah of course you know um you know I sort of you know again they just like you people they worked in a highend fashion something they just like super cool anyway and they're like there's only like two cities that person kind the seene is big enough awesome Executives uh well yeah but it just it could be as nuanced as anything I mean again I somebody I remember once said there it was so specific their spouse had trained to do to be a tour guide on London buses and this was their big they loved doing it and they relocated to somewhere else um

but the promise this person had made to their spouse was we'll we'll go back at some point to London so you can you can you'll get on Double Decker don't worry you do that so you know but again it just shows the breadth of everything that that's I thought it was such a cool thing right and I it was lovely that you know that that you know they'd obviously had that that relationship where like okay we'll do this for a few years and then you come back for my dream right and I think that's that's really like lovely but again like again it's like the as everything we've seen in this world is influencing a factor and that's that's it's not a generalization you can now make from these one data points but it said there's sometimes it's not magic right but the reality is if you've got a great in working culture and the commute is not great then somebody's gonna is good sorry they're going to probably like to stay and want to stay there if some of those factors aren't out of whack then they're going to be more tempted to pick up the phone to something like myself and say oh you know what's what else is out there or like oh fully remote that could work because again my child care or whatever is is got it so basically we as you said you're in a human business and if the conditions change drastically from what they were before let's say somebody has been working like couple of days uh you

know or in a hybrid setup and the company is changing that more and more and more towards like you know what we just watched the you know we're fans of musk and we decided that everybody's going to be on site there's no negotiation then in that situation you could understand that somebody would be looking to change jobs because essentially their their day-to-day life has significantly changed with this of hypothetical ruling yeah exactly and I it's going to be it's going to be different from different people and you know some people I I mean it's sort of a broader point and which I think has been a consistent theme of this conversation right is the the Nuance to flex to the person who's in front of you right and that goes from if you're if you're a hiring manager thinking about okay what what is what are the drivers of this candidate right what do they really care about do they care about the culture do they care about the tech they're going to work on the kind of game the genre the type of team they have like the support they get from X or Y function there's no there's not a general rule

where you can say well this is going to work for everyone right and that that ability to flex is really important as a hiring manager and equally we're talking about that like how do we get to the sea level like the the more mature you get in your career the more you're able to flex and get into the mind of the person in front of you to say like okay what are they you know how are they seeing the world how do I solve this problem for them in a way they're going to be excited by versus defensive yeah right and and again that is so individual um there but I think that is it's it's it's it's a really difficult I think that you know I said some of these other skills are easy that I think is the most difficult skill for anyone whether in politics business teaching you know whatever it is um that ability to get into the mindset of someone else and have empathy for it and really inhabit that space and be able to flex across many many different styles I think gets you to the top of any any profession you're in um um that all right uh last question I know you need to to go I want to ask about AI

so everybody's talking about AI um top companies uh top salaries everything AI related has have you seen this AI surge in the head hunting are there you know companies looking for chief AI Chief language model officer Chief AI officer is is that something like we saw Netflix appoint Mike Vue now to lead their AI charge that's a big company that's a Trends Setter in many ways is this being seen outside of it as well yes so I got asked by a CEO of a European extremely well-known mobile games developer hugely successful and they said like we're looking for this kind of deep AI specialist type profile I also got asked by uh a former senior executive from joingo which very game consumer app who's got a twers startup who's looking for a co-founder for the

same profile right so we're talking about the same profile being sought by a company of two people as opposed to a company of you know hundreds of hundreds of people with with billions of dollars of of of Revenue so the answer is yes people are looking for these these types of individuals you know it's not necessarily homogeneous about the titling of this role yet so it's not necess all the same type of title people have still been quite quiet about it I think there is still this slight stigma or it's either because they didn't want to tip off the comp competition to what they're doing or it's because um they're also internally concerned about people worried about are we going to lose our jobs right is AI going to come in and take over our jobs but there is you know without a doubt that like the importance of bringing AI to refine certain functions in your in your your processes and you you everyone is aware about this everyone is talking about this most people have a very and an executive level most Executives have a

very poor understanding still of really what is data science really what is AI you know what is it you know what's an llm versus you know model you know all these different types of models out there so so you know I think the the reality is yes people are looking for this um and it's not necessarily as public uh about it but they definitely are so if they're not loudly looking about it you can guarantee they're looking for it quietly and again the Mike Vue that hasn't come out of a vacuum right that would have been some time in the planning and in the thinking right so again you you might not see it but it's it's definitely going on got it so if there's one element for Branding or when you're talking to Head Hunters it's um if you're interested in AI spend time learn about it talk to your uh friendly head hunter in your by anual Sync and let them know that you've been investing time yeah Le with one cave AC a good one is people are suspicious of execs who just want to come and play

with shiny toys that is a consistent theme so again they want somebody who's really interested in Ai and gonna add value but if if somebody comes across as like I'm just about AI I'm just about AI you know like you are your company is a vehicle for me to indulge in my own interest about AI people get a bit suspicious of of that so again I think it's that as you said like an authentic like how does this affect the business and like you know how does it impact things like think is a really a really smart way to yeah yeah get get a course that I mean there's top universities offering remote courses from Harvard to Stanford to MIT are offering courses on on on AI you can get through it and then again if you have that strategic perspective on the business then you can marry what you've learned with that strategic perspective and then have a very constructive conversation rather than like you know as you said shiny new toy I want to give it a go give me a big budget and a big salary and I'll I'll come in and play like understand that well jart always a pleasure uh we

had way more questions we didn't even get into the um the hiring manager questions um so that means we need to get you back on the podcast so thank you again for for coming in and sharing so many insights into the executive hiring world no all Mich real pleasure and thank for again everyone listening I do appreciate the comments that come in and followup questions happy to to help if I can on those and I hope that this and do give us some feedback on on the if is this helpful to people I'm really Keen to hear that as well so um I hope this has been useful for for everyone listening Link in the description to uh mission one and to Gerard's LinkedIn profile which uh he may or may not reply because he's so busy but thank you everybody for listening you did it you made it to the end of the episode as a fan of the show it would help us out if You' subscribe and leave us a review on the podcast service of your choice those stars and

likes while a small action on your part mean a lot to us and help to grow the show more importantly are you a member of the deconstructor of fun slack group if you have five years or more of games industry experience go to deconstructor of fund.com SLS slack and apply to join during the games industry best professional Community fied with peers always willing to lend a hand or subscribe to our newsletter to get all the latest insights from the deconstructor of fun content creators thanks for listening [Music]