A Mario Movie Sequel / Activision's New Union / Apple's EU Troubles / Toys x Games

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bya basis a simple two-step integration enables them to Drive Superior results for advertisers while increasing arpd for Publishers in a 100% privacy compliant way you can learn more about how nefta can boost your results at nefta doio now let's jump into the episode hello everyone welcome to another novic round table I'm your host Devin Becker and with me of course two fantastic guests we've got Dave and Tammy joining us for our I guess preg GDC episode here as uh I believe both of you will be there and a lot of lot of us I think won be in effect absolutely looking forward to it yeah really really excited to make it uh out there for GDC if if you see us on the street stop at least for me stop me say hi uh definitely want to connect with as many people as possible absolutely I guess I'll have to watch the Youtube if they if they only just listen right to actually get the visual for that recognizing yes or or cover the cover uh

for for the episode but I won't I won't be carrying my dog so you can't rely on that yeah that was that was the signature move cool well we have ah we have a few different topics here to talk pre preg GDC but I think a lot of people are saving all their big guns for GDC itself so I imagine there's like a little bit of a Slowdown just before and then I think we'll have a lot to talk about also after GDC so definitely stay tuned for that but in the meantime I think we have a few interesting topics here I think to start with one that I think uh people probably saw coming after all of our discussions of it last year around another Super Mario movie hell yeah so just a little one uh to start uh it's been confirmed because we all we were we were all speculating that given the success of the first Super Mario movie uh the the odds of us seeing a second Wana sequel would be very very high it's confirmed um and if you read a

little bit about the press release they're basically trying to keep kind of like the the formula or or you know the chemistry of of the teams that made the first one to make sure that kind of it carries the same feel that really you know resonated with with all of us so uh excited to see that I mean it's going to be a few years before we we get to enjoy it but um you know it's part of uh a topic that we've been covering quite a bit here which is this push to leverage game IP more and more across you know movies TV series theme parks and they even mentioned this in in the press release you know that the Super Mario World uh IP is just like it's expanding more and more and more so I think you know beloved uh Super Mario is not going anywhere it's just getting stronger and we're going to uh you know have another movie to to enjoy we also have the the

one as well that was announced a little while back right and but but not by done by the same people so it's kind of interesting that they you know they went with illumination for the first one and then went with a different company for the second one and then still continu with illumination for the sequel to this one so clearly it wasn't uh the case with the Zelda movies they were just like ah we weren't happy with illumination it was more just like oh let's diversify how we're doing these so interesting that they're kind of spreading that out a little bit although I'm sure those out there those companies out there looking to get those gigs are are very happy to see that yeah ABS absolutely and uh you know we'll see what what other good IP and properties Nintendo starts kind of going after I can I can also see a place where we start seeing kind of like these Side Stories for you know the the Super Mario Universe has like so many Side characters that you know resonate with different audiences so I can see that also uh you know coming our way at some

point I'm really hoping for a Warrior movie then I think that would be the nice Twist on things I was gonna say Luigi's Mansion get a little bit of cartoon lui's Mansion yeah give that Scooby-Doo Vibe you definitely see a I mean that could also be something that ends up being like a smaller scale thing the way like Netflix would did a lot of those sort of uh almost direct to video kind of ones that were like continuations of popular like DreamWorks movies and things like that like shorts or other things uh if this stuff continues to be successful I imagine we could see like you're saying spin-off stuff but also even like that sort of smaller stuff just just meant for kids to kind of watch in that sort of it was direct to video now it's just kind of direct to streaming I guess whatever you want to call it sort of business model where you Netflix I mean Netflix has a lot of transm Media stuff so I could see them for sure being a candidate for something like that but uh I'm sure as as long as they continue to do good it's it's beneficial for all of us because I think this has been a period where most of the trans media has been pretty hyp quality so it's nice to

see that like it's not just churning stuff out and as long as soon as people start slipping right we might start to see a little backpedaling but until then you know Full Speed Ahead I guess to them replacing all the uh Marvel content as they scale back from too much superhero movies now we're gonna get a whole bunch of video game movies I mean the the superhero movies were trans media as well just from Comics instead of games although obviously there's games and all that so it's it's definitely uh you know inspiration right rather than coming up with these uh scripts themselves from scratch as well take advantage now what I'm what I'm waiting to see is the W Waluigi movie or or side Side Story uh like little short that would be fun yeah I mean you could like they did it a bit with h Bowser kind of being fun in the first ones so right so might as well make some more ones where bad guys are kind of fun it's like it's been a bit of a trend I've noticed especially from Disney where they're really kind of leaning into the villains being their own interesting characters and having their origin movies and uh even some of the games and

stuff are starting to like incorporate them a bit more so definitely plenty opportunity for that or even if Bowser just had his own movie could see that like when he's a kid or something they could they could go so many directions with that stuff the the media is just the this the story as you said is just Rich at this point in terms of lore so it's plenty of it and there's there was so many Easter eggs and fan service in the first one imagine there'll be plenty more of that so plenty to work off of yeah will they do the same thing that Capcom did when they did Street Fighter the movie then they had Street Fighter the movie the video game where there'll be Super Mario the movie the video game of well there was Lego Movie you know games and stuff too that like felt like it was like based because the movie itself almost looked like it was sometimes like the game and it's just uh yeah feeds itself in a circle can imagine we could definitely see something like that for sure I mean why not right if if uh you could do a partnership with Nintendo one way why not the other way as well and but the question is who would make the game would it be Nintendo or you know would

that be a partnership deal because obviously illumination doesn't make games yeah there might be one or two companies that put their hand up and say we'll do it yeah which which feels very anti anti- Nintendo so that I think like that would that will be a hard one to uh yeah to see materialize I think the partnership with Ubisoft was probably like one of the few few we've seen in a while where they really like it was a big deal uh and they did pretty well with it so you never know there was the uh the company Vancouver that Nintendo ended up buying but ended up doing a number of games for Nintendo like Super Striker um they were like a a pretty solid second party company for Nintendo um who knows maybe it's an opportunity for another situation like that definitely well while everyone out there start start making your spec games and pitches get ready for the onslaught of trans media speaking of people getting organized uh some fruit coming I think

from some of this this Union attempts over the last couple years that we've seen like a lot of yeah so um I would say probably the big biggest success story that the Unions would say that they they've had to date uh a group of around 600 quality insurance workers uh have unionized at Activision Blizzard or or the studios that were Activision Blizzard now under the the Microsoft umbrella um and interestingly the the Union's already been recognized uh by Microsoft as part of an agreement that Microsoft signed with um the communications worker Alliance back in 2022 so uh there's no challenges in terms of Microsoft recognizing the union and it it does seem to be that Microsoft's been fairly open in terms of or or at least let's say neutral in terms of dealing with any unionization attempts inside their overall organization um so there's approximately now a thousand uh employees that are are represented uh

by the unions inside Microsoft uh and that's across like Raven blizzard uh zenx um and this new group of uh of QA workers uh they're across a number of different Studios so the studios in California in Texas and in Minnesota um so you a fair number now uh covered under um the union the union set inside Microsoft um for me I'm wondering you know are we well I guess I got a couple of questions I think number one you know I'm seeing a lot of The unionization Happening inside some of the the the more areas where work where work is certainly more precarious so quality assurance is certainly one of those it tends to be a little bit more cyclical in terms of when people are brought on to projects and projects over or shipped you know number of them being let go um will we see the union attempts kind of staying inside you know the more the the QA

style um positions or will we see it uh more across the board where we see entire Studios uh becoming unionized um and you know is this really you know one of the the key you know one of the the real effects of having so many layoffs happening in the last little while where where people are looking for an ability to help at least you know negotiate a better Severance or you know help you know make it a little bit more challenging for people to be laid off uh in in the current climate uh curious as to what your guys thoughts are I mean I guess I have a couple questions before you get into it too much in terms of details and in that does this affect um both Outsourcing and contract workers uh because those are two Alternatives like let's say this becomes problematic for them in terms of the unions you know costing them maybe a bit more or they they maybe scale down on full-time hires does is that like the the the workaround that they start then

maybe Outsourcing more or working with more contract temp worker style I I'm just curious I don't understand the the details of the Union part the um so I actually do recall there was a situation where uh an outside group uh an Outsource Group did unionize um and then that group was actually let go they were no longer being utilized as part of uh you know Outsourcing QA group um I think with uh the recognition of the Union there's also the recognition of what are the requirements or what are the um you know the the terms in terms of that they'll be working continuing work for you know Microsoft or whichever studio um I'm not um someone who's really really familiar with usual Union terms um uh I've been in management for the last little while so I'd be one of those people that would be excluded from any sort of Union um but uh uh I think at

this point I think you know with Microsoft actually recognizing the union I don't think that's a case where they'd say hey you guys have unionized we're now going to just you know uh release the lot of you so I think there would there certainly are some uh aspects there that you know their positions are a lot more protected right now that's good to hear thoughts Tammy yeah so I mean I think there there's a lot of thoughts uh for sure around the the Union pce uh one of the questions that you had is uh you know or or kind of open open questions was you know how are we going to like is this the effect of of recent layoffs I think that you know there's it's probably just part of like the momentum that the that the union efforts have been getting you know there's there's been talks about you know unionizing efforts across the gaming industry for many many many years if not um decades

because the conditions have always been precarious right like right now we're seeing these massive layoffs but you know there's been all sorts of other you know quote unquote exploitative practices within the industry uh you know where there's like this the big higher pushes and then the big layoffs and pushes and layoffs uh around like box game releases so uh you know I think that we are seeing a lot of that also gain momentum and and come into fruition um I think that part of you know it's it's definitely a good tricky topic to talk about uh first of all I think that it's you know it's a fantastic win for unionizing efforts especially in North America uh because North America specifically just makes it that much harder for employee groups to unionize because you have to you know I'm not again I'm not an expert either on

unionizing or anything but um I know that there's like in in certain European countries know you can just gain some critical mass and then you know go to the employer and say like hey we've we are negotiating with you as a union and basically like that's first you get the group and then you go in uh you know go to the employer in the US you have to file a petition with labor relations with the labor Relations Board uh and do a vote as a as a whole unit and all of this is happening while the employer knows like this gets like as soon as you're like open the door the employer knows and that insides you know a lot of union busting practices so to what you were saying Devon of like hey can they um you know perhaps go more the route of like Outsourcing and contractors to avoid uh uning like before they recognize a

union yes and that's part of like some of like the unionizing uh like busting practices that that some big corporations take on of like hey no you know what we're not going to block you but we're not going to hire you we're gonna H start hiring more over here and like all sorts of different um things right so um you know again back to specifically like what we're seeing right now I do think it's a huge win because now that uh Microsoft has recognized these unions uh now like that's that's formal that gives them a seat at the table to really start you know negotiating whether it's it's better salaries or as as you mentioned Dave like you know the conditions and terms of you know layoffs and Severance packages so that if you know if you do end up facing that it just you know it's under much better conditions for you know the the group um

that is being impacted so I think uh and I know a little bit of a ramble there but uh I do think that there's a lot that you know gets mixed in with like unions but uh you know it really like a union is a group of people so you know they're going to represent their interests so it's it really is like that giving them that seat at the table and advocating uh just to you know have a better workplace and you know a little bit you know more transparency and the resources that they need um so overall I think you know it it'll be it'll be good to see you know how those efforts start coming to fruition with these recognized unions and I think that depending on that is whether it gains more momentum

and I can see that you know expanding to other uh teams that are usually you know underpaid like Community Management for example is the first one that comes to mind it's like QA Community Management customer support like um there's a lot I think that those um groups will probably be looking at from like these efforts and see if you know they they can follow suit M I do yeah I I agree with you I think it's probably going to be the the groups that companies that I hate to say it see the see some positions as being a little bit more disposable you know that you know there are people that come in they come out they don't see them as necessarily someone they you know are are looking to bring into a company over for many many years um who don't have that they don't have that balance in terms of the power structure inside the company I think if a group of Engineers got together and said hey if we don't

see some changes we're all going to leave unfortunately right now I would say that group of Engineers probably have a lot more power so to speak inside that company than a group of QA that the company would probably see the the QA as a little bit more easily to replace you know there there are some groups that would probably see it as well I just grab some QA off the street to be fair it is an entry-level position for a lot of people and there was a lot of people back in the day that that worked their way up the company from their so it does make sense that it that it's considered a little more replaceable if it is that you know the qualifications are lower yeah but at the same time I mean they're they're people that have put you know great effort towards the company and and should be you know treated as decent humans which hopefully every company would would treat all of their employees so but I I I I do think uh Tammy I I agree with you that it's probably the areas of QA of Cs um Community Management that that are

probably going to be more likely to uh to farm to work towards farming the the unions the representation than than some of the other areas yeah the other you know what the the other discipline in an area that uh I think would would follow suit as well potentially as the artist um because it's it's crazy to me to like you know say since quote unquote art Outsourcing is accessible like you know it also you know it's very volatile for artists to be you know working in the gaming industry um so I think that there's there's like a lot of different uh disciplines that would probably like if they if if we see good progress made with these unions that will hopefully like very quickly start organizing as

well do you think that we'd end up going closer to more of the film model so film very much a union driven industry where they have a production company they have a small group of people that are the that so speak Topline people and then they contract out you know everybody else they contract out the the actors they contract out the you know the um all the various disciplines from props people through cameraman through to you know all the various aspects do you see the potential for the games industry moving more towards that model if we sort of move away from this uh um our current sort of collection of of people inside of a individual Studio that's an interesting that's an interesting question I I hadn't thought about it in in that way um I mean it it's it it is an in question because I think it would take a a really

long time to get there um just because it's it's kind of like a philosophy I think of like if you ask a lot of people in the industry like what makes the best games is like teams that have worked together uh you know throughout like challenges and many games and you know and that's why you you know you also see teams trying to get back together even if you know they've parted ways at some point uh so I think it's it's not only like a structural uh change that would need to happen but it's it's very much like a like a ideological uh change that would need to happen so I think like there's there's like some some added tensions there I think the part of that to consider is um exactly what you're talking about which is the people that are familiar working together and the main benefit for the film industry part of the reason why it

works and and is adapted to it is because all predictions are generally temporary right the project comes and goes there's not like ongoing DLC for it or live service well yet I don't know maybe all that changes maybe maybe they go to the games model and then we go to the film model but uh the thing is you you sort of need some sort of assurances right the reason we don't do the studio model is there's not really a lot of assurances between the gigs in terms of like future work uh you know getting high like make sure you don't get just replac B uh and sort of that ability to bring together people with a set of sort standards and a pool of people that have I guess a lot of different things built up around it and that makes it easier to do that and like if you look the way the film industry does it a lot of times it is exactly what you're talking about people that have worked together tend to Tire a lot of the same crew because they know they're reliable they they know how they work it's it's not terribly different at all it's more just like this was the the nature of the Beast for films and unions really helped made sure that that wasn't just pickup people drop them pick up people drop them in a way

that like there wasn't really like a lot built around that and I think in this case that probably would be helpful in making it so that games don't have because there is like this kind of weird sort of transition between games when you make a game and then you either immediately start on the next one or you're like spending a while going what do we make next guys like films don't really have that you don't just sit around kind of what do we make next guys like that's kind of you you go shop whatever your project you have around and like try and get a green light but then build it from the top down you know via director screenwriter whatever via the studio heads and it's it's a very different structure that way but financially it does make some sense based off of how they build it but at the same time I think it's a little easier for a film to kind of build what it plans to build than a game where they kind of have to find a lot of it in the middle I think that part is probably actually the bigger Challenge and maybe the you know their pre-production is really like heavy prototyping figuring it out before you're trying to get it green lit and things like that uh obviously it takes time to adapt but I don't think it's unadaptable model they do have live Ops it's called TV

series true but those are packaged in Seasons the same way it's like you're packaging a a thing and they you know they get canned or switch out people and things like that but yeah absolutely they have unions the other the other thing I actually want to bring up around the Unions that's very topical I think lately is we saw recent action a lot you know of course with TV and film around actors and even voice actors and writers and things like that and the one of the big points of contention was Ai and so when you're talking about some of these jobs that are maybe a little more entry level there's maybe also more potential for AI to impact them so if there like right now there's not a lot of bargaining power against your QA job getting replaced by some kind of AI Farm that's doing all the playing and automated reporting obviously like there's been a lot of that over time anyways like there's a lot of automation to try and save money in QA or at least to try and test things faster because humans at some point can't scale to that level so it makes sense it wasn't really stealing jobs uh quite yet but especially when we're talking about artist and outsourc uh you you get outsourc to another

country or you get insourced to Ai and it's obviously in theory a lot more cost- effective to insource to AI than to Outsource the country and that was one of the things that Andrew Wilson was talking about when he was talking about uh was it the example was stadiums building stadiums where the initial process for building a stadium was something like six months and through the use of AI they were hoping to get it down to you know six days or you know there with some of their current pipeline changes I think the example you gave they got it down to like six weeks and hey if we got it all you know a whole bunch of AI involved then hey we can get down to six days if we can go from six months to six days that's huge savings and we can either build more stadiums or you know what what have you so um so yeah Tammy there's your there's your reason for artist to try and unionize is because uh yeah AI is certainly something that's going to be injected into the the production

workflow for the for the art team and for the engineering team at some level would you hire a junior person for 50 to $75,000 a year when you're G have ai potentially write some front end code for you I don't know if you guys literally saw there was a a software engineer AI that that got put out today by cognitive I think it was called Devon spelled exact same way as me so apparently there's a there's a even better engineer version of me than me out there and that kind of stuff I don't know if you've seen it it's pretty impressive and definitely looks like I mean I I there will be absolutely hiccups but this stuff is definitely getting to the point where at least in certain use cases could be useful but your example the stadiums one I think that what that ends up doing is revealing all the other bottlenecks you didn't realize were there that prevent it from being six months you find out oh we can't like that actually was like it's great we scaled all this stuff down but you can't really get it down to six months because of this because of this because of this I think AI is going to be the same way right where it's another Industries where we can scale certain

parts down but it reveals the other parts that are difficult to deal with in some ways like hey maybe it's the zoning that ends up taking everything from uh you know the stadium building or you checking fire safety all these all these check boxes that end up being problematic um and then you know you can't automate a lot of that because it's purposeful government regulation or something like that adding those hurdles but I mean this is this is something we'll see play out right this isn't an immediate change or anything like that it's more like a a bit of a warning shop but also if we're making progress in unionization that does offer opportunity for us now to start to figure out okay well how do we tackle this and maybe it just means less people needed for certain things and th those people will have to be specialized in working with the AI uh and actually you know using it in a way that that's helping them as a tool or whatever so it's not it's not replacing a specific person but it is scaling down the amount of people needed uh so that the people that are remaining can can use it work alongside it and hopefully that's something that just

multiplies the amount of Studios that are possible about the games that are able to be built like your Stadium example like hey if you could build it down to six months but that reduces down the amount of people are you losing people or are you building more stadiums and I think there there'll be some yin and yang with that that I think will'll have to consider but in terms of go government regulation and and bottle decks one I'm actually kind of working out in our favor lately uh is the smackdown happening in Europe on Apple uh the dma going into effect uh in Europe I'm not usually a bigan of of a lot of the European regulation but in this case uh yes more please I know yes uh so yeah we've we've been talking about this because Apple has been you know Making Waves around all of this coming into effect uh now in in uh March 7th finally went into effect uh so that is the the digital markets act or dma um and just as a reminder it's it's a European regulation so you know a lot of what we can you know that

we talk about can be contained to just you know European users European practices um you know sometimes when Europe has put in these uh regulations we've seen it you know unlock opportunity for other basically like it's the first step of like many to you know other countries flowing suit uh but right now it is contained to Europe and I think we see that with apple also being like hey it's contained to Europe so we're containing to Europe um so yeah we've seen a lot of twists and turns uh and of course Apple uh release their policy changes which have more caveats and twists and turns so just to take a step back and go over what it actually means uh in theory for developers is um you know in theory

platforms like Google and apple have to allow third-party payment providers other than the default um that Google or Apple pay give uh they uh have this regulation around uh letting developers steer to off platform web stores without retaliation so things like web shops that we've you know we've talked about and we've seen a lot of teams Implement and see significant added Revenue there had to be like a lot of tiptoeing around how to do it to not uh be you know full out of compliance with uh Apple and Google and you know now you can more easily do it without no fear of not being compliant and kind of getting your Dev account shut down and and all that stuff um they have to allow thirdparty storefronts on their platform uh here we're going to continue to see

that Saga between epic games and apple because that's that's where that's playing out right with apple epic uh really pushing hard to get uh their their App Store on iOS in Europe um and they have to allow direct site loading of apps so what that means is you know it should be able as a developer to have you know go to my web page.com and you know download the game from there instead of having to you know go to the App Store uh but all of this you know the way that apple is implementing it is comes with a bunch of uh caveats so uh they've the guidelines that they put in is that first of all to be able to do the um kind of direct side loading of apps and you know be allowed to do this uh you have to be in good standing for two plus years with uh Apple so that

basically blocks epic because they shut down their account which means that they were not in good standing right so you already see that playing out uh you have to have over 1 million downloads on iOS in Europe in the prior calendar year so basically they are no cutting off small teams from being able to unlock this uh and you have to get over a scary looking bunch of warnings that players need to approve uh if they side um s load your app uh the other piece is that the runtime fee that they announced earlier this year I think in January is still you know mentioned like they didn't backtrack from that um so question being is will we actually see any changes uh I think that we're at leasing you know the EU Regulators come at Apple not on around games but you know with the whole like Spotify and

like music competition like a close to2 billion dollar or two billion Euro fine uh you know it's it's something right uh but my first question you know to to hear your guys's thoughts is will that be enough to really get them to like eventually losen losen their grip and the other question is kind of more food for thought is like what are the possible unintended consequences from from these regulations right like we can see a lot of positive and we can see a lot as like as I mentioned like opening the door to them but we can also see you know just stuff that crowds the space in some way or like makes it hard for developers and my my example there is like we all have to accept those cookie popups because of a European uh regulation for for the gdpr and it was like well now it's just like going to spam you every time you go to a website

right so yeah C curious to hear your guys' thoughts yeah I given it's like apple says okay we're gonna do this and that's the part that they shout really loudly hey we're gonna allow for third-party websites we're going to allow for all this and then they very quietly put in as you say here's all the rules and restrictions here's all the fine print in order for you to allow me to do that I really wonder what percentage of comp compan you know are going to be able to do it what percentage of companies are going to want to do um those things because they do require the companies to accept the new terms and conditions with the uh you know the the download fees and um the new style of uh of Apple you know pulling any fees from from the uh from the developers there's a you know a number of extra steps that developers are going to have to undertake are they actually going to see any benefit from it you know Apple

saying hey if you decide to do sales through you know outside of our store we're still going to charge you 27% knowing that you're going to be in you know incurring 3% charging fees for using exola or some other you know third-party uh platform for uh for managing the your uh Payment Systems so in the end you know does Apple win only just because there's still going to get the money that they would have gotten if they had gone through the store and they've put in so many barriers or unfavorable conditions that most developers would just say you know what it's just not worth it let's just keep on doing what we're doing right now well as as you said Tammy like it's definitely gonna lead to probably worse user experiences at least with the scare screens and stuff like that um just like the gdpr like the cookies pop up on every single website that's extremely annoying although at this point I I actually have kind of stopped really paying attention to it or noticing it I'm just clicking that accept I accept and that's probably actually worse for security at the end unfortunately

because now I'm clicking I accept and it's who knows what I'm even accepting at this point because you just get so uh used to it but to to your point Dave in terms of like you know who would want to use this and why like I think it's interesting to consider that if it's if it's in theory kind of worse than complying then the people who will do this are the people that find out some other way to turn this to their advantage right if you're like then suddenly getting people on your website buying stuff and you know obviously you you kind of have to report all of that to Apple is there some other unlock by getting people onto your website buying stuff in terms of customer relationship in terms of cross promotion in terms of hey add revenue from the website like there's if someone figures out a really solid unlock for that those people are going to be the ones that are are willing to do it yeah there there certainly is and I think the larger companies will certainly see the benefit of owning the relationship you know being able to have that direct communication with the with the consumer rather than having to go through Apple the inner area for that um so I do think

that you know a number of companies will see that advantage of um being able to now directly talk with their consumers and and be able to um upsell them on other games upsell them on merchandise you know as you said you know really take advantage of the fact that uh where the consumer is is on your website and you have the opportunity to do uh more than just pitch them on that you know that one particular game when they're on that Landing site yeah seems like it's it's an opportunity for someone to get creative right and really figure this out and who knows maybe that'll actually be a really important thing for the next stage because free to play is in kind of a tough spot right now in a lot of ways and and maybe this pushes people to come up with a new solution even if it's not really directly about Apple but but still kind of forces thinking out of the box when it comes to dealing with the current user acquisition problems and things like that where this ends up unlocking that could be net benefit obviously in the meantime though it it sounds like in general they're just trying to make it you know real really uh not something you want to use uh and

in Google it sounds like is doing some similar things so it's like right now we still have that duopoly for the most part I mean obviously there is Alternatives in some other countries um but as far as like the the sort of global landscape it's primarily that duopoly that we're having to deal with and if they're both in lock step it becomes kind of problematic to do something else uh which is where a lot of the problem is we don't really have a new platform to really move to the way we did from Facebook canvas you know over to to mobile and so maybe do at some point in near future and I think you know Google does definitely provide an example of what what it probably will look like with apple in that Google allows for side loading you can go download games from other stores as it is right now with Google but the Play Store is where the vast majority of people go to download you know they're not going to the Samsung store they're not going to um other you know storefronts that that do offer Android uh games the vast majority of are still just downloading through Google

Play yeah and I think the big advantage of that side loading stuff isn't necessarily for running it as a business kind of thing it's more opportunities where let's say you want to do some sort of testing and and you're not going to be in compliance with apple or you want to go through that whole headache or the dealing with test flight and all those other things there's a lot of use cases for you siloing apks outside of you know malicious uses especially web 3 that was a big thing early on when you wanted to start doing mobile stuff and everyone was unsure of the policies APK side loading was a way you could deal with that and so there's there's definitely those but again as you're kind of Point there's not really like a business mod around it right at the moment people have tried there alternative things like FID and you know Amazon tried its App Store and stuff like that so it's it's not a mainstream thing but it would be fantastic still to have an iOS as an alternative but it sounds like they've really locked down who can do it in in a pretty restrictive way it's like not only do you have to be in good standing which as Tammy pointed out definitely is I don't think it was purposely put into Target epic but they certainly happy with that being a side effect of it but

also like it's the limiting to the million dolls and all that it it also sounds like they're limiting the particular type of customer and since the good standing thing it can't be a new customer right they have to have that two years backlog so they're actually kind of setting new opportunists back two years by having to like wait to be able to do anything unless they say partner up with a developer that's already in good standing yeah when you were talking about like side the benefits of siloing I was like at for the game de side of of of my brain was like yes please that just makes it so much easier yeah it seemed like they were trying to create a loophole for with the Enterprise stuff that they did but it was so severely limited and not like a great system and just it just reiterated the kind of need for that I there's so many times i' as you said with game development testing out uh new builds and things like that and I'm always glad I'm on Android for those because it's just so much easier uh but it is a security thing and I understand where Apple comes from in the sense of that but clearly there's probably a middle ground and maybe this regulation is pushing them towards that which it

sounds like you know like they're at least vetting the developer right to some extent which helps with some of the security concerns and I'm sure is the justification behind why they do it but we'll see how it goes right this is this is First Steps this is like uh hopefully at the very least progress towards something uh if not then it would be fun to watch I guess from afar uh here in the US to see if if it has any impact but if it if it becomes enough of a thorn and apple side to have sort of two different Big Country policies that can be progressed where it becomes you know a global thing where it's just easier for them to just be all right fine this is the policy for everywhere we don't want to deal with the headache of having two separate things we have to do and that's sometimes the benefit of doing these is making it so hard for them to have two separate like SKS or two separate versions of the OS for example or different weird restrictions they have to code around and bugs that come from that to just be like all right forget it it's not even worth the headache like the headache for themselves at that point so hopefully that's the case but I think it'll be a while before we find out if that that ends up being it but in the meantime I'm

sure they'll just be pushing people over to Vision Pro and hoping they can get people on that for for the moment is H as their new green pasture but I think it's a little little bit of a high bar when it comes to retail price for consumers so we'll see but uh speaking of retail consumers uh and in this case toys uh a lot of interesting stuff still happening in that space yeah uh definitely so there's been um I think some some little bits and pieces of good news that are starting to happen around the industry uh amongst all of the the layoff talks uh seeing a number of new game studios starting up but we're also starting to see um some new publishing efforts um so Mattel has announced that they are going to go forward and start doing uh self-publishing uh up to this point they've mostly been working with the licensing model um you know uh Ubisoft uh and Game Loft licensing Uno um Hot Wheels game

certainly been out there before number of Barbie games have been out there in the in the past uh but Mattel is going to start now uh not just licensing out uh but we'll actually start doing uh some development so they're going to start off doing some codev uh where they actually fund the development uh they'll fund the marketing and then and they'll do the publishing um but they're going to start small maybe you know a game in the first year uh maybe start adding a game or two after that uh and you know for for now you know continue to do the vast majority through their licensing uh they've got a number of Partners in terms of who they uh work with uh including net EAS um and then the Barbie there's a new Barbie game that was just announced uh in partnership with zinga's uh Ric group uh that we're supposed to see later this year um but they do have some interesting brands that uh you know certainly appeals to probably the the

younger uh side of things in terms of the demographic in you know in addition to Barbie and Hot Wheels and they have Uno theyve Bob the Builder um and you know there's always the potential for them to also starting expand into Roblox and uh into fortnite as well so it'll be interesting to see how uh Mattel you know solely but surely by the sounds of it works into um you know becoming a true trans Media Company not just doing toys but they've got the success of movies with the Barbie movie and now moving more directly into games um for me one of the interesting things I think will be the the question of will they end up doing uh a Disney where they end up going into games and then we're out of games then we're in games and we're out of games uh or will they uh you know stick with it uh and be in there for a while uh similar to probably their most direct competitor Hasbro who uh has certainly been uh in games for a while

now and sounds like they they probably will stay there for a while especially with the ownership of some of the some of their brands and companies such as Wizards of the Coast and some of the efforts that they've got there any thoughts in terms of uh Mattel are they are they gonna stick around are they gonna be Hasbro or are they gonna be Disney yeah I I will I will say that I haven't had a chance to dig deeper into their specific strategy on how how they're going to approach this um so I would say like my my only take here is like it really depends on what their strategy is because um making games is you know it's we we say it a lot making games is hard it's it's not rocket science but it is hard to make fun games right and um there has to be you know they have to set up the organizations internally to be able to move at the speed that you need to move the flexibility that you need um and just

kind of have that that structure enable game making and not uh hinder it and I think that that's where a lot of uh you know IP holders do that step in step out step in step out because they're you know the way that they control the the the creative control of the properties also has a lot of impact on how well that kind of all gains momentum so I think it you know without me digging deeper into it I think it's like it depends on like how much a creative control they want to maintain and how does that look like um and you know what are the the structures in like actual like strategy on how they're they're tackling this I think that they have a lot of properties where they could you know this could become a huge you know other their arm of their of their business um so it has the potential but it really comes down to you know as with

most things strategy and execution yeah I think n may even depend on just do they have people internally already they maybe have the right experience or skills to be able to to do this quickly as opposed to having to hire all the people for that or to build like an internal Studio but if you think about it this move does make sense when you when you just kind of look at toys in general uh what is one of their biggest competitors is a kid with an iPad right now right like they it's not toys the same way it used to be with kids and obviously there's an element to that but with kids just glued to their their digital devices Now Toys kind of have to be in that space uh and and also thinking about the history of like Saturday morning cartoons and that sort of ability to sort of tell sell toys that way that doesn't really exist as much anymore right and so what is the relevance now maybe you get into games as a way to help sell toys and maybe that becomes the the thing to push people to toys or becomes you know a Skylanders esque kind of experience where it works with the toys there's a lot of opportunity there and like maybe that's what Mattel is or maybe it's just a trans media play of like why are we

not making video games of our hot properties to continue to extend monetization because uh at least for now uh when you go into the theater to see Barbie there's no inapp purchases you could make during it so this does seem like a monetization opportunity for them for properties right like same when you buy toys right you got to deal with the whole retail chain and there's only so many UPS sales they can make whereas with digital you know sky's the limit in in terms of what they can do mization wise which is you know just as Hasbro they know that very well and so this is maybe maybe first steps and and hopefully they don't pull it Disney I mean to be fair like Disney did some pretty cool stuff early on and then you know eventually bailed so it is too bad uh to see that but at the same time like uh it just wasn't their strength and it's difficult you know sometimes they just do that then start Outsourcing or whatever but I also am interested to see if this ends up like bleeding even into web 3 because we've seen a number as you said Hot Wheels was an example one that that went into web 3 there was quite a few others uh in terms of digital toys having a good overlap with nfts so there's always possibility that Mattel could further dabble in that sort of

overlap as well to kind of do something that maybe has some interesting relevance in in that Tech of like hey it's you've got your Hot Wheels you know you can scan it into the game and it's also an nft and like there's there's definitely opportunity uh but again depends on that internal expertise or who they hire if they have to hire people and depend on contractors it's most likely to be shortlived I think unless they find like a lot of immediate success because it could just be a huge cost thing that that's just maybe a light marketing vehicle at that point but I they're successful I it sounds like because they're starting off with codev I would suggest that they probably are starting off hiring sort of those those Topline individuals be that you know the creative director executive producer um you know people that sort of frame the overall uh creative for and then find a studio to actually Build It Up um rather than trying to hire them all internally as you said yeah and and you know as was mentioned it's not like this is Barbie's first

game there's like old I was yeah the old CD ROM games and everything else flash games I'm sure like this it's a long history to to tap into it's just finding like stuff for the modern Market but it seems like mobile is still a very good fit for like those types of products H so we we'll see what they what they put out and hopefully it will be at least of good quality if not you know maybe the employees can unionize and we'll we have a whole bunch of other stuff related to it that we can be pushing or uh you know maybe they can use some AI to help it lotss of different stuff going on in the games industry that could work out or or against Mattel so definitely uh good luck to them though because I think I'd love to see toys maintain some sort of relevance that makes sense in the sort of digital culture and not just fade out in you know in favor of just screens in front of your face all day as much as that is my life but yeah lots lots of interesting opportunity and we'll keep an eye on it but in the meantime uh we I just want to thank you guys for joining us and of course we're all scrambling to prep for GDC and so definitely make sure to reach out to us if you want to talk uh with anyone novic at GDC um we had

the the link in the last show notes I'll try to make sure that gets in this show notes as well in terms of the formed sort of meet up although it might be very well booked up at this point uh but you can always email podcast.co as well as use I think a contact form on the website but uh it's definitely getting close to the date so make sure to to hit us up beforehand uh because it will be a very busy busy GDC from from the vibe I've gotten is it's going to be uh a lot going on despite the fact that you know the bad news sort of time it's definitely not slowing down so make sure to check that out and if you're going to GDC of course have a safe trip there and uh enjoy the show and all the stuff going on with it but in the meantime you know get some rest this weekend and we'll catch you guys the week after GDC as we will all be there and of course hopefully we'll have some great stuff to talk about post GDC if you enjoyed today's episode whether on YouTube or your favorite podcast app make sure to like subscribe comment or give a five star review and if you want to reach out or provide feedback shoot us a note atod podcast

nov. or find us on Twitter and Linkedin plus if you want to learn more about what navic has to offer make sure to check out our website www.nic.edu and advisory Services again that is [Music] www.nic.edu and we'll catch you in the next episode