Why Investors Keep Betting on Gardens

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Welcome to the Naavik Gaming podcast. I'm your host, Kayleigh Moore. In July of 2023, Chris and Stephen Bell joined

Aaron Bush on this show. Gardens had just raised a 31.3 million series A round off of a prototype shown behind closed doors at GDC. One that reportedly brought in term sheets and acquisition offers within days. Three years later, the game still doesn't have a release date, but that hasn't scared off the venture capitalist. Last week, Gardens Interactive announced a 35 million series B round led by Lightspeed, bringing the total funding to more than 70 million before launch. The ran The round [clears throat] values the studio at 190 million with Yamauchi No. 10, the investment firm of Nintendo's founding family, has made Gardens the first gaming startup it's ever backed. This raise lands at a really interesting moment. Studios are still closing, and the games breaking out on Steam are cheap, chaotic social games that spread through clips of friends causing chaos. PitchBook data shows VCs put in 4.12 billion into games last year across about half as many deals as before. The

money's still there, it's just concentrated into fewer, bigger bets. And Gardens is one of those bets. And the team is clear that it isn't a friend-slop game. It's an online world where players shape each other's stories, inspired as much by GTA 5 roleplay community and the emergent stories that brought Ark Raiders viral success as it is by the social party genre. Joining me today are Gardens Interactive's two co- two of the three co-founders, CEO and narrative director Stephen Bell, whose credits includes Blaze Ball, What Remains of Edith Finch, and Sky. Creative director and co-design lead Chris Bell, who's responsible for Sky, What Remains of Edith Finch, and Journey. Today, we're going to talk about how you build a world where players write each other's stories, and what a 190 million valuation of an unreleased game says about where games funding is headed. Stephen and Chris, welcome back to the show.
It's great to be so much for having us.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, first off and I hope I didn't get this wrong. I believe that since you were last on the Navigating Podcast, it

looks like you've actually swapped roles. Is that right?
Not necessarily swapped. Not swapped, yeah.
Chris was Yes, but you are right. There there's been some changes. Chris was both CEO and creative director the last time we were on and I was I was chief commercial officer kind of helping in a much more you know support capacity as at for like corporate governance, fundraising, things like that. Um I think Chris very Chris did a great job and then very responsively came to to Lexi and I couple years back and said, "Hey guys, I think I need to be it's it's CEO and creative director two very big jobs and I think I need to be fully in and focused on the game which is where we need him. So he's like, "Steven, you do this." So tricked me into taking on this role. No, very you know, I was very honored to be

to be nominated to step in and kind of try to fill his shoes.
Awesome. Okay, let's go ahead and dive in. Steven, let's start with you. So when you were last on in 2023, you just raised off that GDC prototype that had investors lining up within days and 3 years long, there's still no release date. Why is it taking this long? Like what is the hardest thing to get right about a game launch right now?
Um Yeah, I So you know, the series A we you know, we we walked in you know, behind closed doors with a with a prototype and that was something that like worked in the room. You know, we for that raise focused on providing experience that could um uh, some of the the features that we felt uh, differentiated us and made us stand out, but it still required us to to, you know, be there in the space with them, fill in the gaps for, you know, uh, what

what wasn't present, um, in order to kind of give them a full sense of the vision. Uh, now, you know, especially with the this round, um, uh, the foundation has been laid both on like the technological and design side of of things, um, and the game can kind of speak for itself. So, uh, we're able to just kind of, you know, put it in in people's hands and, um, go on, you know, jump in the with them and go on some adventures. Uh, the, you know, the the road to to to to this point, uh, was one of, um, building that kind of uh, that foundation. Uh, we're doing some things that I think are pretty unique both uh, on the technical side and on the design side, uh, in order to, um, really realize our vision for our kind of uh, shapeshifting wilds, as we've called them, um, and to to deliver on the kind of experiences that we want to bring to players. So,

uh, we also, you know, there's there's always you you you when you're trying to do something new, there's lots of rounds of exploration, experimentation, iteration. We also switched engines, uh, late uh, 2023, uh, moving from Unity to Unreal. Um, so that also takes time as you're kind of having to get back to to, uh, parity with where you were, um, but we've yeah, the we've just kind of been executing on, you know, the vision we really pitched back at seed. Um, it obviously evolves and is refined, um, as you try things and and test over time and bring in, you know, new perspectives and voices, uh, to your team. Uh, and we have, you know, grown We're still a very I would say a lean team, but have grown significantly since the last time we were on. Um so, you know, that brings all sorts of new challenges and um opportunities that yeah, have gotten us to this point. We're we're getting there though. I would say uh you know, we're

not ready to announce a release date yet, but uh you know, it's it's coming.
It's that you don't have to drop the release date, but I do want to hear a bit more about the game itself. Like drill down a little bit more again the vision. So, I know when you were back when you were on 3 years ago, I think you described Gardens as a fantasy sandbox ARPG where cooperation is key, but betrayal is still possible. But today the language has really shifted, at least in the Bloomberg story, about intimate emotional interactions where players are writing each other's story. Can you fill in our listener about what that shift means and what the game actually feels like?
Sure, I can answer that. So, um both of those descriptions are still true. Uh you can still form bonds and betray your friends if you if you want to in our game. Um we describe Gardens as an online third-person survival

role-playing strand box. Strand box is a term that Steven coined, uh basically blending the relationship building and world-altering mechanics of games like Sky and Death Stranding with an open sandbox world and gameplay. Players go on continuous adventures with each other through this shape-shifting world, crossing paths with strangers, forming relationships, and continuously role-playing, evolving their character, and transforming the world together with the community. So, that's it at a high level. I don't know if you want to expand on that, Steven.
Uh yeah, as Chris said, like both of those uh descriptions are still true, I think. Um
[snorts]
Uh that first description was was definitely uh I think used to help kind of focus in on certain features or where to put people's minds as they had to fill in the gaps of of what the the larger game was because I think we are doing something that stands kind of apart. Um

Uh and now that the game can kind of speak for itself, we get to speak to the the feelings that I think naturally emerge from the experience.
Okay. One one category that kept coming up in the Bloomberg piece, and I'll link it in the show notes. So, Bloomberg broke the exclusive of your funding round. And the the concept of Friends Slot came up an awful lot. So, uh we know that Gardens isn't Friends Slot, but
No.
uh but the genre and sandbox games that keep out-earning everyone are pointing to something like core to your thesis.
Yeah.
Is there I I'm wondering like are you trying to build a a completely different category? Like something completely new? Like why did Friends Slot keep coming up?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do think we are uh creating something that can hopefully carve out its own category and that we can be a leader of and continue to evolve and, you know, with our communities over time. Um I think, you

know, you know, we speak a lot about like social play. Um and that's that's, you know, I think often treated as a genre, but it's really just a behavior, right? Um and if and I think if you look at like what's resonating today, um not just, you know, the emergent chaos and stories popping up out of things like Peak or Big Walk or, you know, the on you know, the ongoing like uh role-play in things like GTA, which, you know, I think over the last 10 years, uh I think over like 90% of any stream content of GTA was focused on on roleplay. But like, you know, you know, you have like roleplay servers in in Roblox or talk shows inside inside Fortnite. You know, the social encounters of Arc Raiders, which is really what brought that virality. I think um you know, when you look at kind of user generated content that drives adoption, you know, anywhere, it's almost never players following the

rules, right? It's players using the game as a canvas to like tell their own stories, to make themselves felt, you know, in a way that others can feel and that they can celebrate and and remember. So, you know, I I don't think like the the future of play is social. I think like it always has been. We we see it as the really the beating heart of live service. And and we're just really trying to to design for it directly, right? To make it that these are I think um you know, I do think that we are, like I said, trying to to create something that is really kind of unique and that brings um marketing challenges probably and the ability to like get people's heads around it. We pull from a lot of different places for inspiration. But, you know, if you look back at our previous work, which was all about kind of we talk about really like celebrating the miracle that

is another person or like that that possibility space of another person, which is like unpredictable and surprising. The the things that have stuck with us over the the experience that have stuck with us over years really have always been around that kind of unpredictability of another person, the emergent stories that pop up between us. And and I think that when you look at, you know, like you mentioned, the sandbox genre, which in terms of revenue continues to stand apart from other categories or the you know, the viral trend of quote on quote friend slop which I think are just some amazing games that that that social connectivity, the emergent stories and chaos within them. Those are you know, that's the kind of emergent narrative ecology that we're trying to to continuously foster and build so that people's can can have unexpected stories that become kind of landmark memories that they share with their friends and continue to bring them back to to the experience.

And let's talk a little bit about art style because also in the Bloomberg article one of your investors Moritz was quoted by saying that Gardens isn't friend slop because it isn't janky. And he also said the game looks like a Studio Ghibli film. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the art inspiration and the departure from janky.
Sure. What can I I Chris I'll let you talk about the art style. I don't want to say I don't necessarily agree about the janky characterization. You know, there's some amazing amazingly designed games there. And I also think that we kind of embrace some level of jank at least on the systemic and experiential side, right? Like it's about leaving space for the player, right? Creating and maintaining that space so that they can you know, experiment and be curious and try to stretch the bounds of the possible, right? And and and find ways to to allow the

community to even surprise you. We've had plenty of experiences, you know, playing the game with others where I saw something happen that I didn't know could happen, you know? Or you just have these just kind of emergent um uh stories pop up and and that can shift the whole direction of of an adventure or the the context that you're in. So, you know, we want to create I think it's important to especially when you're creating something that is very systemic by design to leave openings for other new features and systems to be able to slot in in combinatoric ways, things that have ways that can have a multiplicative effect to everything else that you're building and so that the community continue to to um be curious, explore and even surprise you as you know developers. Well, Chris, you can speak to ourself.
Yeah, sure. So, with regards to the art

style, we knew we wanted something stylized, something timeless, something evergreen, something that could work well on big and small screens. And we had early days, we had a folder of inspiration of just various different images that we were that sort of spoke to us about the sort of feelings of adventure and roleplay that we were after. And one of those images was by Miko, this artist who we're working with now. And it's funny funnily enough, I was like, "Wow, this looks amazing. If only we could find someone who who draws like this or who who works like this." And it took Lexi to be like, "Why don't we just ask this person?" So, we approached Miko early on and he was uh very kind. He let us use his personal portfolio to sort of piece together our team presentation. And so, we were able to sort of tell our story with his personal work. So, going from you know, we didn't really have money, so we had a pitch

deck and then suddenly we went from no art to a deck full of like 20 images of beautiful immaculate Miko art. So, we've really been sort of we've early on identified exactly who we wanted to work with and that's been the sort of the the the focus of our art style ever
Build that in building on that. Um, you know, when we thought about what was the right art style for what we wanted to make, um, one, we knew we wanted to to to find something that could be evergreen. We didn't want to be fighting photorealism like 5 years down the line. Uh, we wanted something that could connect with audiences globally, right? Um, Eevee and Mako, for example, is is already popular in both like Eastern and Western territories, and I think people often, you know, they'll they'll talk about like Studio Ghibli comparisons. I think you can see shades of French illustration, uh, in his work, too. Um, uh, and we've even been, you know, we took that foundational style and kind of have been building atop that, um, you know, in 3D. Um,

uh, Lexi, uh, our co-founder is just an absolute wizard and is actually invented new rendering technology to make sure that we are getting exactly, uh, you know, the the the the immersiveness and, um, the
the illustrative look.
Yeah, that that that is is so striking about about Mako's, uh, work. But, you know, we wanted something that could read well on big and small screens, um, something that could be fast to produce assets with, um, and, you know, and be, um, helpful for a smaller team, um, and something, um, that, you know, could continue to have a sense of mystery and wonder and mystique to it, uh, to to pull people in so they can, you know, be in sent, you know, again, called to to adventure, you know, hopefully for many years to come.
And did someone from your team know Mako, or is it just absolute cold outreach of we love your
Cold outreach, yeah.
The power of the internet and social media, yeah.

Yeah. Slid into his DMs, yeah.
That's great. On what? On uh, X or Discord?
Yeah, I think so. I think it I think I yeah, I think it I I guess or Instagram, one of the two, yeah.
Yeah, something like that. Yeah.
Yeah.
Um okay, I want to circle back to the UGC component. I know Stephen, you touched a little bit about GTA V and role-playing servers. Obviously, it's the topic that's on everyone's mind. We're reporting this um a couple weeks out from the GTA VI launch. But GTA V role-play community is one of the biggest inspirations. But most people watch who role-play rather than actually participate because as we know, it takes custom servers, rules, hours of staying in character. It's sometimes like a full-time job. How do you get authorship from players who would never join a role-playing server?
Uh yeah, I so Chris, I'll I'll let you speak to to role-play. I think, you know, for us um it's been about building the foundation of people

uh for people to be able to kind of uh fall into the various roles that they want to play in the world. Um I can I think it's okay for me to say like we don't we're not a class-based game, right? Um roles kind of emerge very naturally um from, you know, the items you wield, the goals you set for yourself, uh the consequences of your actions, the context that you find yourself in. Uh Chris Chris always calls This might be a uh I don't want to derail us, but Chris always calls Mario says Mario isn't a plumber, he's a shapeshifter. Um and you know, that that that sense of being able to kind of meet the demands of the moment um and and plan for the next leg of your adventure, I think um uh I'll you know, it encourages that kind of shifting sense of affordance and and and role that you're playing in the world as well as like the relationships that you have with other people, you know, what do they need from you? What do you need from them? What's the role that you're going

to play in this various moment? But Chris, I'll let you speak to to role-play and with the way we kind of think about building for it.
Yeah, so I I want to clarify that we we aren't doing like, you know, custom like restricted servers with like, you know, a set number of people that get invites. This is a an open world where anyone can come in and play. Um but, you know, we're largely the we're largely inspired by the sort of the stories and interactions that happen in role-play games and the the way that players uh form identities for themselves and uh choose the kind of characters they want to be in these worlds and then the way that those collide with other characters and uh create emergent moments. So, that's where we look to for for inspiration and uh just looking at how do we give players the tools to perform, to improvise, to define themselves uh in a world where, you know, it's not strictly about combat. We have uh other facets to the game and so um uh you know, just letting players really uh define who they are in the world and and and uh giving them the tools to sort

of go out and set their own stories and and have the sort of emergent stories with others.
Yeah, we talk a lot about incentivizing curiosity and consideration in the player, right? We want to kind of um we want, you know, uh intentional adventuring, right? Um uh and that always means, you know, I I think adventure isn't an isn't an adventure unless there's some sense of the unknown, there's some risk, you know, um you have to venture off into the woods, uh you know, um and maybe, you know, risk getting lost. Um so so we we spend a lot of time building up uh I think a uniquely shaped world that should always feel larger than you, that should feel like it exists without you, right? That it puts sort of put it doesn't just sit exist to serve you and your individual power story, right? We want We want um this is a game about crossing paths and uh building relationships and so, you know, um uh we wanted, you know, put you in a world that you can be

immersed in, that can feel like, you know, um you're not quite sure what's around the next bend, or you might get waylaid by something that you noticed. We have that experience when we're play testing. We have There's a level of improvisation that we have to um uh maintain uh while like play testing with, you know, investors or publishers where, you know, they'll be like, "Stephen, I you know, I found X uh in the world. Like, what is this?" I'm like, "I don't I don't know what this place is." And they're like, "But it's your game." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I've never been here before." So, um you know, uh we can we can check it out. I can't promise we survive the experience, but uh you know, it it it keeps even me on my toes and you know, curious and wanting to um to suss out, you know, uh the role that I can play in the world for my adventure party and and how I can, you know, uh help my, you know, the people that I'm on a journey with.
All right. Well, I'm definitely curious. If you need other play testers,

We will. We will. We have sign We have sign-ups open now. Uh you set me up perfectly. Pre-alpha sign-ups, you know, so we're we're we're getting there. We still got a ways to go, but trying to build, you know, communities around the world that can help us um you know, can develop it with us, right? Can provide us feedback. Um um you know, uh uh there it's a big game. There's a lot of different parts to it. So, uh you know, we are we are very excited to bring more people in, get their hands on it, and see what's working, what isn't, where we need to make changes, etc.
Awesome. And we'll uh make sure to put that link in
Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.
All right. Let's shift gears a little bit to the financial side of things. So, the list of investors, it was it kind of interesting. It was a lot of traditional VCs, not only gaming VCs. I want to hear why that is. Was that strategic, or is it just a reflection of gaming VCs not investing in games as much anymore?

Uh I think probably a bit of both. Um you know, I one the I think just the amount of uh actual gaming VCs has definitely uh shrunk uh over recent years. Um you know, I keep hearing uh people say, you know, back in the the zero interest rate days, uh there was a lot of tourists kind of in the space and they have kind of left. Um you know, you've obviously seen a larger contraction uh in the industry. Um so, I think that's partly it. Uh we've been very fortunate to have a lot of interest and support and, you know, um from uh existing investors, new investors. Um uh so, we when we thought about the raise, um it's also, you know, capital is obviously paramount, but like uh being in that position that we've been

been in, we've been able to kind of say, "Okay, you know, who's who are the right partners to kind of fill in whatever gaps we might have, right? From you know, the you know, really trying to build the village that it takes to to raise the child, right? Uh we we say like, you know, do we are we do we have gaps in terms of like geographic expertise or platform connections or you know, uh public publishing insight, right? Like where Yeah, yeah. Um so, you know, where can we find support that, you know, can add to um the amazing expertise and guidance that we've been able to to pull from over the years. I I always say that they I think the art that you're making reflects the way it was made and uh and I think the reverse can be true in this sense in that, you know, the game is very much about strangers of varying affordance coming together and in in in in adding to something as a community in in a

multi- multiplicative way and we've definitely tried to take a similar approach to fundraising and to building kind of a a syndicate of support. So, we've been, you know, like I said, very fortunate to have investors that have come back in, expanded their position, you know, doubled down on us as well as new voices that can come in uh to help us, you know, um lay the groundwork for where we want to go over the the months and years to come.
And I want to go back to those zero-interest COVID days because there have been a lot of They were fun, weren't they? There were a lot of game studios led by veteran game investors Sorry, a lot of game studios that were led by game veterans who had really successful games under their belt. People wasted a lot of money, but we didn't see a lot of breakout hits from that cohort. How are you planning on surpassing how that cohort has performed?

Yeah, um I mean, I I don't think it's my place to, you know, play armchair quarterback with other people's stories. You know, there are some There were some great games that were made and really talented teams and teams that like provided us a lot of support and encouragement along the way. Um I can What I can What I can tell you is I think where we've placed our conviction, you know, I think the first uh is being truly differentiated, something that can stand apart from, you know, the tens of thousands of other titles that come out every year because that's just one of the things that you're competing with. Um I I think if you're a variation on something that already exists, you're competing you know, on budget and that's a fight that a studio our size doesn't win, you know, if you take X legacy game and add Y Y twist to it. Um Uh it's that's a tough hill to climb. Um if you think you're going to like take that that fan base. So,

we've really tried to to create something that like can pull from a lot of different places and hopefully do some things that are new to in just chiefly our own in order to to not, you know, to be able to build a community and and a product that can stand beside beside those legacy games. Um I think, you know, we've been through three rounds now, right? Um and we've never, you know, needed to and and never been willing to really reshape the pitch or the road map around, you know, what we thought investors wanted at the time, what they wanted to hear. We spent, I think, I probably said this last time, but even before we pitched seed, we spent about a year and a half just kind of paper prototyping and prototyping, trying different projects. We even had a couple publishing offers for some other other projects that we turned down because for one reason or another, whether it was, you know, we we decided, "No, this the the tech isn't there yet." or "This is too much of a content treadmill that we would find ourselves on."

But just kept iterating so that by the time we went to seed, we had like a really, I think, full vision for what we were going to be executing on. And and our thesis around social role play was our thesis back in It's 2021 really. And so, we've just kind of set out and been building uh you know, what we said we were going to do. And then I think the third thing is, you know, the the team really. Um You know, Journey and Sky were both founded on the same premise that this game, you know, is focused on that an encounter with a stranger, you know, is really like the most profound thing that a game can hand you. Um You know, we've made that bet twice now and and I think it's paid off. I I I think Bloomberg reported that Sky has done something like 2.5 billion in revenue since it was released, which was was news to us. We knew it had done well, but we were like, "What?" Uh so, you know, uh I I don't think it's a bet on uh people, you know, who happen

to have made a good game. I think it's a it's a bet on uh this specific thesis um and and people who have um kind of explored it before and can are continuing to try to to push it forward.
That's a great answer. Um okay, Bloomberg also reported, which I was a little bit surprised about. We We don't usually hear about like runway in funding announcements, but they reported that you have about a year of money after release, which is not a ton of margin for a live game. I'd love to hear about the metrics that you're going to be watching and measuring to determine like whether launch was successful.
Yeah, well, so I mean that that year number uh you know, that's always an evolving uh picture, um but that also I think treats like the this round and the equity as the whole picture um and it and it isn't. We have We actually have been

fortunate. We have committed capital in addition to the the equity round, hence the the plus on the story um that, you know, can really, you know, uh support the team uh and and and the project. Um we're evaluating publishing offers. Uh again, we've been in a fortunate position, so, you know, um been able to actually turn down a couple uh evaluating, you know, uh looking for been been they've been able to uh be patient and look for like the right partner um as we have, you know, with with our [snorts] with our funding rounds. Um but, you know, it's been important to us to bring in uh the appropriate buffer that you need for, you know, a live multiplayer game to to get out on you know, get on its feet, really uh tap into its community and connect with its community. Um, I think Sky, Chris, uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Sky really took like 6 months before it really uh you know, exploded. Um, uh and

so we wanted to make sure that we we have the space to to let the game, you know, get on its feet, to make tweaks at scale, to roll out, you know, first expansions and things like that. Um, but yeah, Chris, I'll I'll let you speak to kind of what we're look looking for, you know, in evaluating.
Um, in eval Sorry, in eval
In like evaluating like I I think Kaylee, your question was like around like how do we know if it's working or not? Obviously, we have like commercial and metric targets and stuff. Oh, sure we want to hit, but I think like for us, experientially is probably what we're looking at, uh you know, what what's resonating with players. So,
Chris, well, yeah, so, you know, when we when we play test, for example, you know, one of the first questions we ask is what are the memorable stories that you have that you had playing this game, right? So, we So, we look at, you know, those emergent moments, uh those those unexpected surprises that come through a sort of a role-playing uh game. Um, we ask about the relationships. Did you

come across someone? Did you Did you feel an attachment to somebody? You know, what did you feel? Um, and I think by focusing on those particular two aspects, uh we get a good picture of whether or not the game is performing or not.
Yeah, I I would say also like what you know, I mentioned a a content treadmill uh concept like, you know, the retention engine for us is other players, and that's what we mean by social role-play, right? Uh providing players with the uh affordance to be able to express themselves, to communicate, to connect, to deepen their relationship with other people in the world, and to really be the kind of authors of one another's stories, writing the engines that drive one another's adventures. Content cadence matters, you know, and you know, we will have one, but you know, if the content is the only reason that people are coming back, you know, you're on that treadmill that you can't keep up with. They're just going to churn through, you know, whatever new releases expansion you you've you've

you've rolled out and then fall off. So, we're trying to design so that people continue to come back for one another and that the systems, you know, are built so that what you you've done previously, you know, has had consequence on your community, on the world, etc. And and provide players the tools so that they can, you know, as we are developing new content, new features, there will always be some version of R&D, you know, happening with gardens. Players can continue to to, you know, tell stories that, you know, surprise and challenge one another.
Yeah, and developing a sense of history where the history of your your your own character in this world as well as the world itself and how it's been influenced by the community and and really feeling that so that you feel like you're sort of writing your own legends and authoring your myth story.
Okay, and I have one last fun name question for you and then we can move on.

Moritz, who, as we mentioned, your VC who is also quoted heavily in Bloomberg, he framed the raise as a sign that game studio funding is back. And I will preface this with Moritz is the best VC in terms of PR and narrative [laughter]
I really think that like he is. No, he is. I bow down. Everyone is impressed of how you handle PR.
Yeah, I I will say he's and he No, no, no, he's yeah, he uh Yeah, it's um Sorry, I'll let you ask the question.
No, no, yeah, yeah, I mean it's a good narrative, but I want to hear from your guys' perspective because you've been in the trenches, you've been raising money, you've been in the game space for a while. I'm sure you have a lot of friends and colleagues who are raising money. Like, do you buy that this is a signal that game studio funding is back or is the money just finding a handful of proven teams while everyone else waits? Like, what are you feeling on the ground?
Yeah, it's challenging. And I I I don't want to I don't want to speak out of both sides of my mouth. Um I think like I agree

with him directionally, you know, I I hope he turns out to be right. It is not the same environment that it was when we raised previously. It is very, very challenging. Like, we do not take for granted um how fortunate we are to be able to raise in this climate. Um you know, I think you mentioned Is it like 4. something billion, you know, uh across as half as many deals you know, has been done. I don't think that's not a recovery really, but a concentration, you know, um uh I think you know, for new teams or teams with a first-time prototype, it would be much more difficult than it was than when we went into a room with, you know, just a prototype in our hands. Um I I I I've I was talking about this with with some uh investors recently. You know, I understand the correction that

we've seen over recent years. I think it's probably even a bit of an over correction at this point. Um and I think games are at a point now where they are underfunded and that there is a lot of opportunity uh to be had uh for those, you know, brave enough to take the leap there. Um uh I I would love to hope that, you know, some good news from us helps, you know, the tide, you know, rise all boats. I I I We'll we'll see. Um but, you know, I think it's still it's still it's still, you know, I can just speak from our perspective, you know, it was a very different journey even raising this round than than the last one, right? There there's a lot more diligence that you need to do, a lot more you need to be able to show. Um But, yeah, I I I I I do hope that, you know, uh eagle-eyed investors and uh forward-looking

uh investors can spot that there's really uh some some big opportunity uh to be seized upon, you know, if they're willing to to jump in.
So, funding has obviously changed a lot in 3 years, but technology has as well. We're living in an AI world. I'm just curious of how you guys are thinking about using AI, whether it's you're building your own tech stack, and then also how much that came up as you're pitching investors this go around.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a definite question that comes up every time you're raising these days, right? Um you know, Lightspeed uh led our round uh again and and actually expanded their position um you know, in the company, and I was I was actually curious like why.
[laughter]
Uh you know, um they've been amazing partners to us, but, you know, they're very much focused on on more like enterprise AI uh plays, I think, these days. Um and Bejul Somaia was a you know, one of the partners there.

Uh their view was that, you know, in this kind of ever-accelerating world, right, with more and more automation, that, you know, uh genuine human interaction experience um is only growing more meaningful and valuable and and rare. Um and that their bet on Gardens was a bet on that going back to, you know, when they when they first invested. Um, so that was really great to hear. I think, you know, like most development teams, you know, you're constantly evaluating kind of how, you know, technology can make the player experience better. We're we're a team of, you know, artists and craftsmen, right? So, looking for how we can best, um, uh, empower them to to to create amazing stuff. Um, uh, we're constantly evolving, you know, to make smart decisions about about current tech. I I think people sometimes read our human connection thesis as an anti-AI position and and it's not. We're

making, you know, we're not making sweeping generalizations, um, or predictions about the technology. Uh, you know, I think what we're saying is that another person brings, you know, their own intentions and and history and unpredictability that generative systems, um, aren't going to give us. I think players know when something feels algorithmic, you know, uh, and want a sense of intentionality to their adventuring. So, we've been dis- I think pretty discerning about, you know, what we need to to own ourselves. Um, we've we've been, you know, we've talked a bit about it, you know, but we built some proprietary tech that kind of allows us to to build the kind of ambition, um, a and uh, you know, uh, flexible uh, and shape-shifting world that we knew, uh, uh, we needed, uh, for the experience of Gardens and something that could be built by a more lean team,

uh, but but that could also capture and and retain that intentionality that players crave, right? So, you know, we we built our own tech that kind of mixes procedural generation with hand-authored content in order to to uh keep the experience feeling hand-crafted, feeling intentional, feeling like uh players are adventuring through spaces that have meaning and history as Chris mentioned, right? Because I think um I think that's what they want. Uh so, yeah, we're you know, but it it's definitely it's definitely I think on the top of everybody's minds, you know, these days, so.
Yeah, absolutely. I want to have a little bit about monetization. I know when you worked on Sky, you had to monetize without breaking the feeling of the game. I want to hear a little bit about how Gardens makes money and also how that compares to Sky. Are you doing anything differently? Are there any learnings?
Mike can speak to that a bit.
Sure. Um so um

when we uh when we look at Sky, I think we do take some inspirations there. Uh one of um the key aspects of Sky's monetization structure is actually a gifting mechanic. So, uh it's really prosocial, players interacting with each other, gifting things for each other, and that um is does account for a significant amount of revenue. Um we haven't we're still exploring exactly our monetization model for Gardens, but we have some strong ideas and a lot of things that we want to pursue and test. Um Uh I won't get into too many specifics, but um we are um we're really looking to maximize player happiness is the sort of the core thing that we care about, and so how do we do that through what we're offering the players and what we're bringing from in terms of like, you know, value uh to each and every player.
Yeah, we've been working with um we were very fortunate to to bring in uh Mike Ambinder, who was the long-time experimental psychologist uh over at Valve, helped with the economy design and monetization for things like Counter-Strike and Team Fortress and and

Dota. Uh and Mike's, you know, number one priority at all times is like kind of that maintaining uh player player happiness and providing them value over the long term, right? This is something that we're hopefully we can be evolving with our community for, you know, years, decades to come, right? So, it it's about, you know, obviously we want we need to hit our commercial targets, we need to be able to to continue to bring in revenue so we can keep making great experiences for players, but you know, it's something that you know, we're taking a very kind of I think hopefully long tail approach to, you know, how we do that and how we can, you know, hit our targets while continuing to provide players a sense of value and utility. I will say that like we I can say what we're not, we will never be pay-to-win. Like that's not what we're we're doing um uh and we won't ever do because again, we want to make sure that we are not

getting in the way of that ability to form important relationships and deepen those relationships with other players.
I love maximizing happiness. All right, guys, I've one last question that I'd love for each of you to answer. So, last time you were 3 months past series A with a prototype. Next time you're on, maybe a year from now, maybe 3 years from now, let's see, the game will be out. So, what do you want to be telling us during that conversation?
That's a great question. Uh I'll say that I I I want to be able to share the various sort of stories that have emerged through playing the game.
I was going to say. Yeah.
Yeah.
Um yeah, you know, being able to site like, you know, our favorite was some Steven said it earlier, but like we're so inspired by our memories playing online games over the years that have really stuck with us, whether that's like coming across a foe who who determines not who to decides not to not to hurt you and help you instead, or something as simple as like, you know, find like going to some far off place in

the world and like discovering someone watching the rain, which is the same reason that you're there to watch the rain. So, like how do you build those moments of intimacy and surprise and unexpectedness and and and what you know, what and how are players like role-playing and improvising those moments and be able to tell those stories?
Yeah, I mean that's what that's the intention of the of the game, right? Is to be able to create something that fosters those kinds of stories that can be shared and you know, become landmark memories for people. Um you know, I I remember my favorite thing that came out of uh Journey was a Tumblr called Journey Stories. Um and it was like Missed Connections but for Journey basically like, oh hey, you walked with me this the whole way to the mountain top and then I fell off and lost you or like we said you know, we separated and I couldn't find you again um or just like thank you for walking with me. It was like so beautiful. Um so so yeah, I just I'm excited to to be able to to share the stories that

I've seen or experienced um uh and all of the ways I think that the community has like surprised us. That was like my favorite thing from Blaseball too. Uh seeing the community do things that really like I said stretch the the the the balance of what I what I even knew to be possible in the game. Um
It's always great when your players surprise you.
Yeah, that's that's what I'll be excited to share.
Awesome. Well, Steven and Chris, thank you so much for being back on the Navic Gaming podcast and I look forward to having you back on once the game is launched and in the meantime, I'm very excited to play the pre-alpha playtest, which once again we're linking in the show notes. Thank you again.
We will miss you and yeah, thanks thanks so much. It's been a pleasure.
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