Turning Metrics Into Mobile Wins with Safia Dawood

[Music] hello world welcome back to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and our data Diva Miss Peggy and salts wonderful to see you as always how are you today I'm good and that's a good way to describe it because it's all about data I wonder sometimes Brian what do you do because we do this together for over a year do you come to the show and then think of the think of the title because you're doing it differently every single time so I'm impressed I I I look at the guest I I kind of look at all the prep that we do and um I I just try and come up with something a little relevant but that um just captures the joy that I feel whenever we're together and we doing one of these shows and and data Diva that describes myself I think it also describes Our Guest as well so let's get to it because we do have a data geek just like ourselves today Brian so we are I think in the data geek

equivalent of yeah seventh heaven or you know just really really excited she has worked with startups to big name so she's seen it all from Ubisoft to ma she's been at the Forefront of understanding how data can change the game I mean that literally and figuratively and I was at her presentation I was blown away because it was a totally different way of looking at the data so I'm really building this up this is going to be exciting and unique Brian I'm not not over promising so we have you never do Peggy I never do indeed so we have safia Darwood she is senior data scientist at Maloo as I said very lucky to have her on the show and she's goingon to share some of the latest insights on how data can drive growth which is what we all want for gaming marketers sopia great to have you thanks Peggy hi Ryan I'm excited to be here and we're really going to enjoy you being here because um as Peggy says yeah

it's it's a bit of a passion it's the we hear so many times on the show from so many different people one of the key challenges that the games industry is facing is not just having all this data but understanding it and using it to tell stories um what's the key phrase We love an actionable outcome on this show safia so delighted you're here um Peggy do you want to kick off first of all I have to say I think we're on a roll because I looked in Social I always look in Social and people love it when we had Google on the show recently so I think we're just going to do like a little bit of a data sweep but this data is special because it's not just the data that matters it's the ability to see it in the context and and that perspective and so one of the things I looked at when I was looking at what you've done to data and how your colleagues also describe you sfia they call you out as someone who can deliver powerful insights which is what we need but in record time while always maintaining an unbiased

perspective and that I found intriguing because I remember when I was studying statistics and that famous book statistics lie or how to lie the statistics so it is possible to do things with numbers that shouldn't really do but you're maintaining an unbiased perspective so I'm intrigued how do you stay objective when analyzing such vast amounts of data in my opinion as a data scientist I think insights are only as useful as the people who you're telling it to and whether they trust it or not and so which is why I always make sure that uh the work that we're that I'm delivering is peer reviewed and that everything has been kind of documented so that people can reproduce it and can poke holes through it because that's that's the only way that people can trust things is if they can fully understand how this is coming to to light I think there's this misconception that data is always going to tell the truth but as data scientists we manipulate data a lot of the times and

it is our responsibility to make sure that this manipulation is done is in the most unbiased and objective Manner and not an easy one if you think about how many people are trying to push the narrative or their specific narrative you know we we we are in um we are in challenging times but you have found found growth here but it isn't it isn't easy it really is not easy no I think it's really important to acknowledge that bias around you and I think a lot of we we we very often fall victim to to either the bias that we have within ourselves but also all the bias that's in our data even the way that data is collected is not uh Is Not always completely objective and unbiased and so it's good to keep that in mind when we're starting to lay out hypothesis that we want to test or even at the end when you're starting to write up your insights or turn it into actionable um decision making it's good to keep in mind the the limitations that there were

around your data and around yourself so Safi I'm I'm really interested about your approach because it's all about seeing what the data is really telling you and you've identified three key uh phases here growth stabilization and now a Slowdown um I'm sure that feels a bit un nerving nerving to marketers who are seeing you know fewer installs or dropping revenues can you tell talk us through the phases um in a little more detail yes um so I presented this uh I think it was in May and um and uh I the data basically zoomed out uh on the trends to look at since 2022 what's been happening and so we had a a big uh period of growth around 2022 followed by St stabilization for most of 2023 and then around the end of 2023 and beginning of 2024 we really started seeing a Slowdown and uh I I reviewed that data before before coming on the show here and uh it

seems like 2024 has been a year of declining downloads a little bit less so for Revenue um which is still promising which shows that also the market is maturing and we're finding newer strategies to to um to Target and so at malocco we're seeing less and less the type of one- siiz fitall acquisition strategies and more tailored strategies and so uh we also see that most games that were before IAP monetized only are now hybrid monetized and we're seeing more and more um kind of this converging of IAP and ads monetization coming in most games um which I think is a way for the market for the for the gaming companies to Pivot regarding this this Market that we're seeing as well that that makes perfect sense and in fact we've in one of our uh previous podcasts we've just been talking to uh an ad monetization expert who was saying exactly the same thing you know that there's no one siiz fits all anyway more it it's all about

the specifics you know the game the genre the audience the region so that's completely fascinating and um what should gaming companies kind of take away from that in terms of these phases and how should they be looking at or thinking about adjusting their strategies as we move into this slowdown as you call it um yeah so the when I did that when I looked at the trends I also double clicked into the revenue Trend to look at what was driving um this Revenue Trend as you already know that Revenue can be broken down into several so many different kpis um I I regrouped it into three different kpis which was repeat purchases transaction volume and um conversion so number of of of payers and uh what was really interesting was that we saw that the trend was mirrored in the repeat purchases and that we also saw the same thing in the top 1% paying

users um that seem to be driving the same kind of growth stabilization and a beginning of slowdown uh around the end of 20123 beginning 2024 and it keeps going now and so I think it's really important now to start understanding the different type of user profiles that you have in the game not that uh gaming companies haven't already been doing that but I think there's a renewed kind of uh importance around this um understanding their users how do you retain them keep them engaged long enough for repeat purchase is for a second conversion for third and so on I'm curious there sopie because I'm thinking they do have personas they have been targeting they have been segmenting but is there a requirement to to refocus so to add some richness to these profiles and segments or is it just doubling down and working on what you have so it's not just the fact that you need to think about the audiences but maybe be a little a little bit more

nuanced or sophisticated in how you do that yeah definitely I think we're we're already seeing some of this in in in gaming companies but um I think looking a little bit deeper into um well from my perspective because we're we're an acquisition platform um I think looking into kind of a more holistic strategy from acquisition the onboarding process the tutorial the monetization how does it all link uh together and so having different markets that are being now monetized differently between I AP and ads monetized um thinking also about whether so you have so many new we've lost some signals but with the the evolution of the of the device market and the games Market we have we're getting different signals that we also need to start knowing how to use in our acquisition strategy but also reflecting that the strategies that

we're using in our campaigns deeper into um onboarding and and the gameplay and monetization the show is really about putting data putting knowledge in the hands of our audience and you do tell us the good news is that yes we do have signal loss but we do have signals absolutely so can you share anything about how marketers should be leveraging data for more targeted campaigns maybe there's a maybe there's a signal they're not thinking about it's like good news you just need to open up the aperture of how you view the data and and you'll be home free so there are two things that make me a little bit hesitant about this question one is I think um in terms of of marketers I think the gaming industry is among is among the most creative and Innovative out there and they have a lot of data into their game that uh in the from the acquisition or adtech industry we don't have the same luxury of getting

so I they probably have data that I'm I've left the gaming industry 10 years ago came back now and so um they probably there's probably new data now that I'm not uh priv to but I do think that now we're starting to see this this differentiation in different markets and so different markets have different type of user profiles and so therefore I think we should be looking into um how do we leverage that kind of that kind of user profile so we lost more kind of performance signals but I think we can gain more now into looking into other types of signals that are more inferred rather than um deterministic this this is it it's You Know It's when um we started to see a lot of the lockdowns in terms of data protection um in various regions around the world there was a lot of fear that we would be losing all of our data losing access to all of the you know the things that we we considered vital at that point but um there's so much more and that

that ability to iner data I think is something that you know must be a new scale it's we've had to learn it in in in the recent past are you seeing a different approach since you came back to to games safire uh yes I would say definitely different approach um different ways of and and I think a lot of games are already integrating that that type of uh Behavior where you look at different campaigns and the way instead of looking globally at your retention um or we're and we're now looking at different campaigns and how do do these uh different cohorts um play differently uh behave differently and monetize differently in the game and so I think we can add more quality to that type of data and do more um so more refined player segments with regards to the market that they came from the device that they have and these type of of data fantastic okay so let's let's

dip into some of the some of the real world's um data here so despite the broader slowdown we have um a reasonably small group of incredibly well performing games that are still seeing growth um can you tell us do you know what they're doing differently or what they might be doing better than the rest one of the things that really stood out uh when I presented this fi these finding of these top performing games that had uh consistent Revenue growth despite the slow slowdown in the trend was the fact that these games um had they had better retention even past D7 which usually D7 is a is quite a um a a a key performance indicator in in acquisition campaigns and they had that across both IOS and Android so this was across all device across all all U um the the the top performing games and on top of that they also had higher repeat purchase rate and while from an advertising platform perspective I cannot personally say that the latter

was driven by the higher retention I think it would seem like they have a more holistic strategy for engaging and monetizing their users the focus on repeat purchase is interesting because um it means that you're also thinking longer term is that another point that you're seeing not just more holistic but you know thinking again further ahead and being maybe even as I was talking with one marketer she was telling me you know we're being more patient you know we're giving things a little bit more time to figure out if they work or not is that something that you're seeing as well to be honest not really within acquisition campaigns but I think they definitely should I think there's more there's there's more to do when a player is engaged enough that they're not leaving the game they're staying and um repeat purchases is one thing but if you think about repeat purchase it means that there was the first purchase uh

within the first day or so of install and that takes me to another important point which is retention so I think um you can have you having an overall better retention for your game uh makes all the other metrics uh follow right so if you have better retention in your first three days you have a better conversion in that those F first three days um then you repeat you have a higher like a bigger volume of of users that you can then um take to a repeat purchase right and so I just think so in my mind when we look at a D1 retention that's around 30% that's effectively 70% of your acquisition of your acquisition budget that is being to to to to say it quite brutally wasted right so 70 you have 30% D1 retention 70% of your acquisition budget is wasted and so um taking a hard look at your campaign uh thinking about like really going into

that that uh retention and then once you are there starting to look at monetizing these these cohorts better so I think it's more of a uh it's less longterm it's more kind of really deep uh deeping going deep diving deep into the data and looking into how can you have those little incremental games that will just improve all of these uh uh um kpis that's another thing I'm hearing more and more you know it really is the incremental gains in fact we had someone Brian on our show who said that that was really what differentiated you know leaders from laggards was you're aiming on incremental gains small ones not these big ones we come from an industry where I think we just got into the whole idea of thinking big um and didn't adapt that thinking so much I know this industry loves breakthroughs right something new is coming and it's

so exciting and and it's driven by Passion and it's driven by by new ideas um and this proposition is quite boring but it works uh when you have a a game that is already existing you're not gonna if you have to break do a breakthrough then it's effectively a new game so we're thinking about here we're talking about how do we improve games that are already on the market that are already established and so um looking into like these incremental gains will get you further I think for existing games than than and then you can reproduce those learnings for new games it's a great point it's a great point and then you know coming from a development background the the exciting part is always the next project or the you know the the sequel because you can do all of the things that you didn't do in the first one and all of the great ideas but just tweaking and improving every element you know your user acquisition campaign the creatives in

your marketing your inapp purchases that ad Revenue can make an enormous difference um to to pretty much every game but I'm going to I'm going to come back if you have uh a developer you have a studio a publisher out there who aren't getting that sort of early retention who aren't getting that engagement you know that that Revenue that they're looking at how do they turn it around what should they be thinking of I I'm I'm going to sound like a broken record but I'm going to go back to retention I think um taking a hard look at your at your campaigns and making sure that you're targeting the Right audience that your creative asset is reflective of um the ear at least the early gamepl the your initial gamep play I think would be my first instinct so going from your acquisition making sure that your acquisition is reflecting your game then going into your game and looking at um even before D1 retention you're you're on boarding um in your tutorial like really being

nitpicky about your drop off rates at each point um and making sure that you're getting the smoothest curve that you can um and and then from here you can start looking into okay what's what's the offer that will be more tailored to kind of your your your uh user at each point um and having like these inserting seamlessly um offers that are that are um tailored to the user profile I think is where um the game is at it's also interesting it mirrors what we've heard a lot which was at one point it was just acquire because growth is good growth is great and then a lot of marketers said but we've got people in our game who really aren't for the game you know it's not going to be attractive so it's not going to work and we're going to lose them and then we had uh you know a number of marketers said you just have to know when to say no

actually you know it's it looks too good you're like take them all but later on and what I'm hearing here is if you're not focused on retention from the start you're ultimately going to be wasting resources it's going to look good but it's not going to be sustainable I think like if we start focusing on roas is where we start looking into um like having a lot of installs is great but if you're having all of these install drop off after the first day what is that really bringing you and so therefore are we playing a game of of maximizing installs at the minimal cost or are we playing the longer longer term game of of making sure these users are staying or passionate about their the game and don't mind spending a second time a third time and what are we doing past this past this uh D7 how are we keeping these users engaged for longer because if a user is passionate about your game this is when they start they don't count the money that they're spending in your game because they love it this is

incredibly interesting really valuable information I think a lot of our audience are going to be you know having a long hard think uh after listening to this episode but let's switch gears for a second and dive some into some of the the really sort of key chunky data points that you found um Peggy and I are going to hit you with a few quick numbers and we'd love to hear your thoughts and get your take on on why they matter so brace yourself um the first one is the top performing games right um the top four performing games had a 22% higher transaction volume compared to the Benchmark what does this tell us about player behavior and how should a marketer act upon that I think uh 22% is an impressive impressive number for Trans a higher transaction volume but then you pair this with a lower transaction value across these top performing games I think this uh in a higher retention that we mentioned before this seems to be painting a really convincing picture of better

player better payer engagement and therefore more opport opportunities to monetize the engage engaged players I think this one is probably less for the marketer and more for the product manager but it's to focus on less higher on on on Focus Less on higher price points and focus more on monetization opportunities across the longer term and maybe also a hybrid hybrid on top of that because you're not letting anything go so there's probably also a mix because it's just such a smart thing to do to think about all the opportunities again incremental yeah I think I think we see also a lot of games that are that start out as being very casual and then move on into like a more midcore or more more engaged strategy later on um and I think that that kind of behavior is just so interesting for because you stay you you start in the game because the game play looks good at the tutorial but then you need a little bit of complexity to

keep you engaged for longer and that makes you P right so I think that's that's really interesting progression the magic prog so important important in everything I'm a little bit hung up on repeat purchases because I have so many friends in the industry and this is what they'd love to see because when you see this you know everything is going to go well maybe not smooth but better than expected because you have them you have the hook they're back and repeat purchases were 5% higher in the top games by day seven so looking at that that's not just a great number but there's something marketers are doing in that first week what should marketers who are not in those top performing games obviously what's the lesson here what do they need to do or consider to drive more of those purchases so I don't want to State the obvious because it's in the name but repeat purchases touch on two things right you have the purchase in the first day after install and then a continued

engagement for second conversion for second conversion opportunity and so looking at the onboarding um and having all games have those welcome offers um but I think really making sure that your welcome offer is not a shortcut for the game it really helps players engage more in with the game and then having a reduced drop off rate um for across the funnel down to even D7 is where you can then have a higher volume of engaged players that will then um give you more opportunities to monetize them so really strategic just being very strategic about how you acquire but also the signals that you're picking up on the behavior that you're picking up on to to encourage this to make this happen this doesn't happen naturally it's like you know loyal users are made not born

that's a great Point Peggy yeah and again it reflects something we've heard throughout which is you have to be thoughtful about this you have to think about your player at every stage you know and let's be honest you you have to test this um yeah definitely thr throwing it out and crossing your fingers and hoping for the best is not a sustainable business model and also being able to compare when you test is you're able to then compare what you did versus uh the the side of the the panel that didn't do anything to be able to really get that incremental exactly so exactly so beautiful um okay last one I promise safia uh the top games again are spending significantly more on remarketing campaigns um particularly on Android which surprised me but it why is remarketing such a critical part of of growth um well uh two things firstly Android because we all know uh remarketing is not not such an easy Fe on on iOS and so we could only focus on

Android here um secondly so there this is an aspect of the analysis that is both a feature and a bug um in the sense that to be able to get a comparable data set to look at the trend that that spaned uh over two years meant that um I had to look at games that were experiencing consistent uh so I I wanted to look at games um that that had this data set for two years and wanted to differentiate games that had a consist Revenue growth so which also meant that I had to exclude any games which launched in the past year because then otherwise I wouldn't get the trend so as a result it makes this data set a data set of established games and with established games come a comes a growing pool pool of churn users and so as a game matchers I think it's really wise to start looking at that pool of users because these were users that were early adopters they were users that were engaged in your game and espe especially looking at the users

that were monetized before churning and thinking about um how do we bring them back to the game I know I consistently like constantly reinstall all games and I most of the time the second time I reinstall is when I monetize and so from my perspective re-engagement companies really work it's a balance right because as you said yourself you have more opportunity to you know you've got win back or or just re-engagement in the marketing but you also have to be concerned or careful about how you do this you know when you do this again that personalized non-intrusive offers at critical moments you said to yourself not even just the offers just the just the communications of having the tutorial at the right place or you know having information that doesn't upset the gameplay there's no answer to it sopia really not but it would be interesting to hear from you how marketers should engage to retain a

lot of the time we're focused on that D like the the the earlier part of the retention curve D1 to D7 what what are um our users doing there but what about after the D7 what about the after the first purchase what are users if if the first purchase is giving you a shortcut to to your to to the game what is left for for for users to stay how do they do their set is there even an opportunity for repeat purchase because you've already kind of skipped the game play to to the easy part um so I think really uh keeping your users engaged in a game that's challenging enough that's open enough and that the offers will not just be a way to skip to the easy part I think is really important so keeping your users engaged and and making sure that they have something to to What's the phrase uh to dig their teeth

in I think it's is a phrase um in the second in the after the monetization after the D7 looking further into um even D30 we know that that the curve flattens to a quite sad picture when you look at a retention curve and you go to the end of D30 and it's flat there's nothing that will bring them back but I've seen uh in my experience when I was working in games I've seen uh later monetizing um features that Pro can provide a bump into the into the retention curve that makes users come back after um and so I think this is really an interesting thing and it's not necessarily where games are focusing on right now we're looking at a lot of casual games a lot of um um hyper casual games that even though moving to IAP I don't think we're pro are providing uh a lot of longer term user experience uh or game play

yeah I couldn't agree more and we had someone here while back Brian from amp showing us how you know things do follow a pattern maybe because no one got around to thinking like you sopia and saying notifications it's great if you think everyone wants to see it in the morning or at a certain point or a certain point in the game but it's really about mixing that up and the incremental value of just a little bit of variety and recognizing that all players do not play the same that was incredible and it was such a small point you know such a small fix it's doable technology is there maybe just the marketer mindset not yet I think we also have to think about user Behavior first I want to caveat everything I say with with I'm a data scientist easy for me to imagine things but I don't know how easy it is to implement um but but uh um I think when you also think about the like new New

Freedom that users have now to not have any notification from games or to to not share any data and to be completely private in the way that they're playing I think it's something that we need to keep in mind because a lot of the these behaviors are coming from higher end devices and so these are very often the users that will also monetize and so how do we uh keep up to date with that kind of behavior uh in the game play I think is really important it's it's so interesting um I'm just going to go off on a tangent Peggy I'm really sorry but but one of the things that we've been talking about on the podcast quite a few times Saia is the fact that more and more of the user experien is in the hands of the developer you know from monetization and business models through to how do you stay in touch with your player and if you can bring your creative mind to that and and look at some of the technical limitations are some very very clever ways in which

games are really pioneering the building that engagement with users without necessarily having you know the uh the updates on the phone or getting you to sign up to a mailing list so it you know for me it just it makes the marketing a part of the the design process uh yes I to I I agree I think um and we heard about that during that that uh that uh U Society event that that um where I presented is having this kind of seamless now collaboration between um UA managers and uh gameplay and designers and producers is giving us so many it's is just adding New Dimensions to what we can do as marketers now right so um being able to to have differentiated um uh tutorials differentiated on boarding experiences depending on what Market Market you're you're targeting what type of users

you're targeting within that market and what gameplay experience you're giving those users I think it's it's just it's adding so many dimensions that I don't think we as acquisition um as an acquisition platform are fully aware of but I think it opens a a a world of opportunities for for for marketing that's interesting and I I want to pick up on something you mentioned there which is in terms of markets and and regions are you you seeing any differences between sort of the key regions and are there is there anything that really stands out to you um we are see we saw that in the when we were when I was comparing the the top performing games versus the the bench the rest of the games it was quite interesting to see that the top performing games were investing more in um in emia they were investing more in Android um they were just investing differently compared to the to the to The Benchmark and I

think we don't necessarily see one what like I said at first there are no one siiz fits all any anymore but we do see that games that are successful are um tailoring their their strategy better and so F having a bigger chunk of your on of your of your budget on emia I think correlates quite highly on in on the fact that they have probably tested and they have um unlocked imia markets for higher roas that uh other Gams have and um I think this goes back to again like being able to to tailor your your your campaigns for these challenging markets that might monetize or that might behave diff differently well that's exciting news then because then we have that as a as a key Focus area I mean I've always seen it as as untapped there's still a lot in um Amia which is good news for

developers because it can be very very local and it's untapped you know there's local everywhere in fact is what we're hearing again localization that is one of the key pillars of a strategy to uh to grow in these times and I want to bring us back into that because here we are we're well into Q4 and uh and it's your job sopia no pressure it's your job to see around corners to look on the horizon to look at data Trends because that's always so exciting um looking ahead what are the emerging Trends or opportunities that you think gaming companies should be paying attention to in say the next 12 to 18 months I think the gaming Market is more mature now and the emerging Trends are less obvious and more complex um and with the with the iPhone and the highend Android devices now supporting reporting heavy gaming um I think we'll

see more kind of cross device um gaming uh we are already seeing a lot of cloud gaming and with that comes a lot of challenges around uh tracking around building more accurate user profiles as they jump from one device to another um but like I said I think the gaming industry is always at the Forefront of innovation and I'm really excited to see how companies will rise up to this this new challenge of hyper really tail tailoring um acquisition strategies to the specific usure that they're targeting at the exact at that exact time while we're on the topic of what comes next I mean you are here you are deep into the data no doubt it never stops it never rests maybe just a little personal note from yourself or even MCA what we might be able to expect from you in the next 12 to 18 months um I don't know if I'm at Liberty to to share um what we're

focusing on but we are definitely still focused on um on gaming we're we're we're we've opened up the market to more kind of IE and hybrid uh gaming um there are challenges around acquisition campaigns for those type of U of games um which is what we're we're currently focused on and I think there's also um things to learn from the what we call consumer app segment and how that comes across in in uh in gaming so if we're talking about cross device there are a lot of other apps that have had this uh challenge before it came it came to gaming and so how how are they doing things and how what can we bring to to the gaming uh Market I think is is learnings that that would benefit both both ends see now you have the idea for a really exciting piece of research you know so much to learn non-gaming and gaming apps I always think you know put

them put them at a table and let them go at it because of course non-gaming nailed in a sense engagement and re-engagement and remarketing right they had to but it's for a less I think it's it's non-gaming is so vast but at the same time gaming is so it's all about passion it's all about creativity and so um I think both both areas have to learn from each other to get better couldn't agree more it's like games have been forced to change and evolve and adapt so very very quickly um that it can be really difficult to break out of that but I spend quite a lot of time going to to non- Games events and talking to non- games people from Tech and creative Industries and there is you're absolutely right there's so much we can learn but equally there's so much that we can offer to the rest of the world but we just need to get out of our own uh little Community should we see broaden the Community absolutely exactly

started with you sopia we bring in your research you didn't you didn't answer but I know there's probably something coming that we will have you back I hope so I kind I enjoyed being here I'd love to have you back bring some data and we will geek out together yeah definitely we'll be in touch we have to make it happen we have to make it happen well sfia it has been an absolute Delight it's been a joy thank you so much for joining us today um before you go we have a couple of question questions that we ask all of our guests that brings it right back into the heart of games the first is what are you playing right now what's on your phone or your laptop or your console uh we're not prejudiced that way um and secondly what's your favorite game of all time ever all time is a is a big word um So currently my there's one game um I don't know how popular it is but it's one game that it's kind of like my my vacation at when during the day is um I'm I love staru Valley I just think it's like a vacation

you just go in do your little thing you break off from reality and then suddenly things are more much more relaxed when you come back exactly a beautiful place to be exactly and I love the game um and it's always it's one of these games that I never uninstall I just keep it there um and um I think in terms of favorite game I have a lot of fun memories I'm not currently uh playing that much I'm a I'm a mom of a of a toddler and so I don't have a lot of time um but I think I had I have a lot of fun memories from um kind of uh switch when we were playing um I what's overcooked this was one of the games that we played a lot with my colleagues um before before I had a a toddler at home asking me what I was doing every 3 seconds but um but yeah I love overcooked love how many how you you just go deep with your with your friends

on it couch cor you cannot go wrong with a good couch I love a couch Co-op yeah and a cooking couch Co-op um a cute cooking couch Co-op yeah sorry I'm now just alliterating for their s of it um safia it it's been um really valuable really interesting and an absolute Delight to have you so thank you and as Peggy said we will absolutely have to invite you back and um you know maybe we can we can see how those predictions planned out over the next few months yeah I'd be curious to know if I was right or I was wrong maybe wrong I hope wrong no it's gonna be either way it's going to be enlightening and yes I'll join Brian thanks so much Sophie it was wonderful to have you on the show thanks Peggy thanks Brian happy to be here this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we

would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games Market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter @ PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shoes and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future