The REAL Cost of Vibe-coded Game Mashups | Games For Breakfast

[music] Good [screaming] morning, MATT.
GOOD MORNING, WILL.
HEY, good morning to all of you.
Welcome to Games for Breakfast, the only internet talk show we talk about this week's gaming and tech news, where also we ask the very important question, do you hear the people vibe? Vibing the vibes of angry vibes. We are live with games for breakfast. We'll have the eggs and hold the chives. Welcome everybody to another show we have not done in two weeks. Magic trick. Um and I'm very happy that we are back to to diffusify and discuss and engage and [snorts] uh mainly though to drink my coffee because
I was going to say I didn't sign up for diffusifying.
No.
No.
Oh. Uh check your contract. I'm so sorry, Will. Check your contract. I

believe it's on page 34, subsection B, uh, paragraph 4, if I remember correctly, where it says, uh, you are contractually obligated to diffusify if you are given at least 5 minutes notice. Consider this your notice. Dad, help. No, I see you signed it. Uh, and I know you thought it was weird that we asked for it in ink and blood, but it it really does lock it.
That's how I sign all my contracts. I don't know.
You did bring your own ink blood pen, which I personally was impressed with.
Listen, when you have a cat that's as bitey and clawy as my cat is, you get you might as well. As long as there's blood everywhere, you know, you might as well. Um, [laughter] did I use my true name? Great question. Next question.
Our soul siphons seem to uh say that he did, but maybe he has some other dark wizardry that I'm not aware of.

If you were aware of it, would it really be dark wizardry? I feel like dark wizardry by definition has to be like at least a little unknown.
Well, it depends on uh it depends on on how good your dark wizards are.
That you know, fair, valid. Uh Zoe does own our souls contractually but not physically.
Yeah. When we die, that is where they go,
right? Into like a little ball that she like bats around.
That's That's how it works.
Uh
uh. Why am I getting XP? Is this an ARG RPG? How are you getting XP, Jim? Uh, Jab is getting XP over on YouTube because YouTube has an XP system that ranks people based on how active they are in chat. It's a very weird system. I don't particularly know much about it or like it terribly much, but it does exist.
My gut says I hate it, but I'll have to look into that. That's weird.

Yeah. You know, I I uh You know what? I hate when things that I Listen, I love games. That's why we're here. Um, but I don't love it when when pointless things are gamified. When the gamification is designed to trick you into engaging more in something than you would have already liked to engage in. Case in point, I will say uh I really hate uh Google reviews because there's times when like I have a really good service at a at a restaurant or a store is really awesome and I just want to go on and be like, "Hey, this was awesome." You know, Jessica was great. That it helped a bunch. Thanks so much. Like, love your store. And then it's like 10 points. Only 40 more till level three. And you're like, get effed in the wherever freaking computer. I hate it so much. And it makes me not want to do that anymore. And maybe I'm in the minority and it doesn't matter.

It just it just
rubs me the wrong way.
Yeah. message is 5 XP.
Hold on. I just wanted to welcome Dash Husky for for being here live after 3 years of VODs. You made it.
Welcome. Welcome to the now that is for you that will never be again even though it will be recorded later for other people.
I feel like we need like golden gates between us and we're like welcome to breakfast. We we should we should make we should make a stupid graphic that does play when someone announce that we have to physically play when someone announces that it is their first time here live. Welcome. Thank you for coming in. Um we know this time is not the easiest for people. Um but it is the time that we have to do this. [laughter] Are we talking about the time of week or the era of the internet that we live in or perhaps

both?
Yes.
Thank you.
Yes. Both. Both is the answer.
Yeah. Bo both. Both is the answer. Yeah. Okay. Great. Excellent. Uh
listen, and I also want to say James, if you like number go up by by all means, please engage. I just I I wish it was optional. I wish you could be like, "Hey, I don't I just No, thank you."
I wish like individual people could turn them off. Yeah.
Um, okay. One piece of business that is actually two pieces of buzzness.
Whoa.
We have two special breakfast streams upcoming. We We didn't have breakfast for two weeks. So now we owe you two special breakfast streams. That's right.
Importantly, next week, one one week. It's been one week from today.
It's been
uh is my birthday. my actual birth miss uh the actual anniversary of my emergence onto this twisted plane of reality may all quake in terror. Uh so we're probably going to have some silly

birthday nonsense next week. Um and then the following week
um will be Halloween. Uh and we encourage all of you to dress up as we will be. Um, so you know, in the spirit of camaraderie, you're required to wear a costume on the 30th while you sit in front of your device and watch Games for Breakfast.
And listen, if you want, we can share costumes and stuff on the Discord. That's totally cool, too. Um,
but uh yeah, we have no other way of of of seeing all the other costume. We'll just trust that you're doing it.
Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Matt, is are are we are we ready to get started? Is it
I guess I I think we kind of have to like like we kind of have to really uh you know warm up into the story because it it I guess we're going to talk about bad things then like what seemingly is a good thing and then what I actually think is a bad thing. Does that make

sense?
Yeah.
Either way, it's today's main course.
[music]
Yeah. [groaning] Um, okay. So, Epic, man. I I would like to state that I I don't like just constantly punting things. I just It's not fun. It's not good. And I feel like out of all of the the corpos for whatever reason, just because I like the idea of somewhat having competition, even though I do love Steam, I like the idea of other places being hubs for games so that we don't get into a PlayStation situation one day.
Mhm.
Um, and so therefore, I will always root for other game stores to continue on.

Epic has continually made it difficult to have them be one of those to champion. like it seems like they actively I don't want to say make the worst decision maybe not the worst decision overall but the worst decision for public image and whatever that's worth in the year of some lord 2026 I don't know but essentially um the the first part of the story is Epic just announced that it essentially redid its storefront uh by vibe coding the entire thing and getting it out fast and now it is a more responsive. It like boots up four or five seconds faster than it did before. I think Tim Sweeney mentioned like he posted about this specifically.
Is that correct?
Yeah. Well, so the whole goal was to get Epic Launcher to launch faster than Steam.
Oh, that was their whole goal. And they
did they set that out? Like was that said?
Yeah.

the the problem is that I am firmly convinced that Gabin has spies inside Epic because the same day that they launched their vibecoded much faster launcher, Steam also released a client update that makes Steam faster. Well, also I mean they must like this is also probably something they've been working on for a while and it probably was just a silly timing thing is my guess.
I I have a really great comment that I want to bring up.
Yeah.
Yuri says, "I've heard a lot of the term vibe coding recently. I still don't know what it means." That's a great great point because that's very important for our for our story today.
For most of the stories today.
Yeah. [laughter] Thank you so much for bringing that up uh and for and for for pointing that out. So we're going to use vibecoded to mean something along the lines of computer, make me a launcher for my game store. What is faster and smarter and prettier

than every other launcher? I don't know how to do those things, but computer do it for me. So, essentially what Will is saying is you use one of the AI models and you basically tell it prompts to code something for you in a in a coding language that you decide. um it uh it is fast um and you can get prototypes out to a certain point quicker but like I think the in this particular case and I don't know their QC process I don't know how many humans actually looked at this because all they're talking about seemingly is how much um they used AI to to build it quick um the issue is even though AI can program and vibe code very very fast, vibe coding again being you say a prompt, it codes something based off that prompt. Hence like the vibes, right? Um it

if you don't have a human being looking at how it works, then you don't know how it works and then therefore it is not safe to use.
Yeah. So in this case, by the way, the epic launcher sucks. um the current that by by all accounts it is faster to boot up. However, it doesn't actually close in the background. Like it doesn't launch from cold. It just unhiberates itself which is bad cuz you like you if you if you close the thing on your computer like all the way like from the tray it should be radical concept here closed.
I know.
Thanks Adobe looking at you. Is there What's going on in your background? Will
h
Is there noise in the back?
Oh, you can hear my fan now.
Only when you talk. Your noise gate cuts it when you're not talking.
Okay. Um, I'll just turn that off. My bad. My bad. I I We have We have changed the sound setup here ever so slightly.

Brad and Janet has ears everywhere.
Yeah, we've changed the sound setup. So now uh things that were previously hidden in my room uh may become audible to you. So I will I will leave that off. Um the
it's Will's biggest fan.
Okay. Uh the other problem with the Epic Launcher is that it's bad. Like it's just bad on its face. There are parts of it that like don't work or do things that you would expect like a crashing program to do rather than like a program in motion. Um, it's it's not good by most standards. And
the sort of horrifying thing about all of it is the pride with which Epic announced its own mediocrity, right? like we Epic goes we the second largest, you

know, game store platform with all of the money that Fortnite has bought us. Um, instead of hiring actual engineers to make something that could reasonably compete with Steam, decided to vibe code the entire thing and launch it to the public. So there's also I've been noticing this with a lot of essentially and I I think it's because they just live in a different reality. A lot of CEOs of companies specifically tech companies a lot of the times but like but actually not limited to they'll announce something and be like we made this thing so fast and cheap. It was so much cheaper to make and so much faster to make and look at it now. and you're like that's not a selling point for your consumer. Like you can talk all about or you can plan in internally like that that's not that's not a a boon or a benefit to

them. Do you know what I mean? Like it it's not something you should put on the tin. Um if you're going to do it, that's your own stuff and you figure out how you're going to pay your people and do your things and whatnot. But like when you get to a point and you just start announcing how cheap and quick it was done, that to me is a bunch of red flags of like, well, it probably doesn't work that well and you probably screwed over some people. Like unless you have a real discussion point about how that was done as ethically as you can and what are you doing with the savings? Like otherwise I don't give a [ __ ] [laughter]
you know? So when YOU ANNOUNCE LIKE WE VIBE CODED THIS THING AND IT'S BETTER AND I'M like I [laughter] sure man.
Yeah it does it does have uh I like I like um Vga's idea. New biscuit formula cheaper than ever. We replacing all the flour with sawdust. It's so much cheaper.
You don't have to grow sawdust. Spoiler alert. You do. Um [laughter]

just differently. And it's free. You can sweep it up off the floor. Yeah. Yeah. It's um it's not a selling point. And so I wonder Okay. So then let's let's sort of pontificate for a moment why we think uh Tim Sweeney announced it. What? [laughter]
No, this is it. This is the vibe. ME TO MY GIRLFRIEND. That was so fast and cheap. I'm sure you're impressed. I don't want to get weird here, but on that note, I've had discussions with people uh let's just say um single friends who have talked about keeping track of um potential uh throughout the course of their trying to date people and whatnot. And they're they're finding an odd correlation. Um, and that is the more a a a physically intimate partner is into AI, the worse that physical intimacy

[laughter] is. And look, AT FIRST YOU'RE LIKE, HAHA, I get it. [laughter] But then like if you think about it, like it's it's like anything in life, specifically something like that or even in like work you do or art you put out or anything like that. It really is the effort that like shines through, right? So like it again hyper anecdotal and not my stories, but like it's just a funny it's just weird, you know?
No, it it but but that is kind of the thing, right? Like Epic goes like I like vibe intimacy which is so funny because you could like okay we're we're clowning on the word vibe a lot right but kind of intimacy is a vibe but it's a vibe that you put a lot of like I don't know like emotional effort into right
well and and it it feels like this is this is sort of the the thing I forget who made this this is not my point

please forgive me I don't remember who made the point it The thing about um generated or generative like work work um generated products is that if you didn't put any effort in its create into its creation why should I put any effort into its consumption like if you didn't like it's rude right like if if I put effort into an email that I send someone and they say computer how do I respond to this email, right? Like, that's so rude because you didn't put the same effort. You didn't meet me where I was. You didn't put the same effort in, right? So, when Epic Games, this giant company, goes, "Hey, we made this thing and it was fast and cheap and we didn't do any actual work." Why should I, the consumer, give any actual work to consuming the product that you, by your own admission, did not care enough about to spend time and

effort making.
Yeah. And uh [clears throat] Haloan makes a good point too. I don't think AI generated code is cheap as some people think. The cost of each prompt adds up quickly. I I do agree with that. I think cheap in a sense of like they wouldn't be doing this at least right away if it wasn't cheaper than what they were already doing.
Yep.
Right. Right. So, if you're announcing you're doing this thing and it's saving you money and time, not that it's like the cheapest thing ever, but like I just don't see the value of it unless you're like, "And we're doubling down and and putting some of that money into our staff members 401ks or like whatever the the the dumb thing is, right?" Like, cuz you can cheer for that. It's it's it's when it's when corporation says, "We're saving so much money using AI." And you're like, "Great. What are you doing with that money?" And they're like, "We're saving so much money with it." and you're like, "No, that's not that's not the that's not the qu that's not the answer. That's not okay." Uh, regardless, I think um and and look, I know people have done

tests. We have some articles in the show notes about like people booting up Steam and it's still faster sometimes depending on what you're doing. And that is very silly and haha clowning around. But like what I think what makes me sad about this story is Epic is trying to do something. And I'm not saying they're like altruistic. They're a comp they're corporation. I I'm not trying to like take a side. I I know they're not. I don't know. I believe they're not actively trying to be evil. I do believe that. I think I've always kind of thought this that even Tim Sweeney like comes at things thinking something is positive about he does a lot of stuff. He does nature conservation. He does a lot of good stuff too. But I think that when you are in sort of the bubble of the echelon of of that level of power and finance, I think there's just something that that you just parts of

the world that just overshoot your consciousness. Like if you're sur and if you're surrounded by yes people then you're never going to hear it and it's so much easier to be surrounded by yes people when you have infinite money. Again this isn't absolving anything. It's just kind of a reasoning like I'm never shocked. I'm just always disappointed.
Yeah. Um and I think the Yes. And the other the other big thing about this and the the vibe coding stuff um is Yes. Th this is the other thing that we should mention, right? When they're talking about like how much money they saved or how much, right? Whatever. It's only that cheap because the compute isn't actually paying for itself. Um
they're trying to hook you. It's the be it's step one of initification. Yes.
It's it's like the the reason why it's even possible for everyone to do any of the things we're going to talk about in the next couple stories is because they want people to to think that they can't

work without it,
right? And and I had a conver very interesting conversation in a voice call with some friends last night. Um I won't dive too deeply into it. You can look you can look up the information, the financial information for yourself. Suffice it to say, it is all but actually impossible mathematically for the AI bubble to pay for itself at this point. Like the amount of debt that the AI industry is in ex like is I I believe it's equivalent to like more than 1% of the GDP of the United States. So like 1% of the country's entire GDP would have to go to paying off the debt that the AI industry is in. Like
I'll even do Yeah. And I'll even do you one better on that's the macro scale, right? On the micro scale, not to be

confused with the macro scale. Um
yeah, that's a very different scale.
Yeah. On the micro scale. Um, I equate like I know certain companies are like outsourcing like their graphic design to certain AI models or other AI companies that are all just using anthropic or JGPT or like any of like they're just it's just like a shell that like does something else. They vibe coded a program to run the the tokens that pay for the thing and whatever, right? The issue there in my opinion is I've tried to talk this through with people with an example I feel like people can understand and that is a time share company. So, let me take you back, children. Uh, thousands of years ago when when you bought a time share, it's never been a good deal, but when you bought a time share, you actually legally had a deed for that piece of property or whatever, but like for a certain amount of time on it in a year, right? Like you actually it counted in a percentile as land that you owned in a weird backwards way. But around I think the 2000s, I don't remember when, um,

companies started changing it and basically if you were getting in on a new time share, it no longer was that they, the company then owns all the property, but now you get points and you can spend your wallet of points on how many weeks a year you get to use your time share. And what they were trying to do um to people who had them was trying to get them to convert their actual deeds over to points. The trick is, and I think a lot of people didn't realize because it might have been the first time, at least in modern history, that people were dealing with this on scale, is they kind of just had to trust that those points would have the same monetary value all the time. Right? So, if you bought two weeks at a time share property, then when you exchanged it for your two weeks worth of points, yeah, that's pretty even. Oh, and you you know what? It's two and a half weeks now. That's crazy. Oh my gosh, it's what a deal. It's so much easier. And now it's it's easier. It's cleaner. But then over time, they because they the company store controls the currency. They change the value of

the points. And that's exactly what's going to happen.
Yeah. with every model's token costs, they're going to basically get in, let's say, in graphic design, they're going to get so many graphic designers fired, companies are going to then take that um amount of like time to just use these models. And then I guarant flipping tee you within 9 months to a year after that the companies that are now using all these AI models to do all of their graphic design work are going to be paying more than they were when they had actual graphic designers in their employee. And the bosses because they will have outsourced all the work will have to manage all of those files and things. and no amount of like there's still going to it's just it's just fascinating how like no one can think not no one a lot of people can't think
three years down the line
or they don't care to
right sorry that was a long- winded

explanation just something that I've been thinking about lately and we were talking about how this will all this will just change
yep yeah yep yep yep yep so uh for for another uh example right of how Epic has its priorities confused perhaps.
Um, so one would think that having a uh deal a deal with some of the biggest IP in one of the biggest media companies would be a priority. Um, and you would be right except Epic is now pushing its devs to use an AI workflow [snorts] to work on its Star Wars Marvel

crossover shooter project exclusively. Didn't it really say what was the god we have to find the actual like the way that they talk about it is insane. Um
uh no more handwritten code. An excerpt from the message said this is from IGN. The same message is then said to have added that all art for the project would be generated with full AI workflows. Jake Jones, a Epic communications director said, "We're embracing AI accelerated development led by Epic developers who are the visionaries and creative drivers for everything we do. Uh, when were the last epic layoffs? Let's see. [laughter]
That's correct, though. Like,
like today's layout. So, the big ones was in March. I'm trying to think if there's another one that was around a thousand people.
Mhm.
Uh, was that four months ago? No.
No, no, no, no. R, Richard, Richard,

you're you're thinking too hard about this. You're thinking harder than they did because they decided to use AI for this. Richard's comment is wait most Marvel Star Wars shooter concept like most Marvel characters don't use guns and most Star Wars characters use swords. How do you make that work as a shooter? [sighs]
That involves thinking
also just don't think
also also
consume consume.
God I just rewatched they live. It's so good. consume.
Um, how creatively bankrupt do you have to be to not only be just be like, "No, it's Star Wars and Marvel together," but also like, "We're not even going to make it." [laughter]
Right. Yeah. LIKE I'M NOT saying that there couldn't be interesting stories or something to tell. And look, maybe we are being hyperbolic here. Like like

it's but it's the it's the fervor that these people talk about this [ __ ] with. Like it's it's the it's the corpo statement that even if it's not as bad or weird or or nonhuman as as you think, somehow they think these talking points are good. We're going to make more money, make a bigger thing, make it quicker, and pay way less people. And it's like, wait, what was that last part? Why [clears throat] why would why would I be excited about that?
Uh AI's or sorry Tim Sweeny's post uh he said that they are moving developers around to retool for maximum AI acceleration. What
we're going to like put him on a rocket. What
the aim isn't to do the same stuff with fewer people but to enable everyone here to build more and better stuff and to bring their benefits to all teams using

Unreal. the followup post he said, "Our more modest aim is to survive the AI revolution, help others developers do the same, and come out on the other end making better code and content faster."
Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Explain to me how let's even let's even say that that's all real. Uh, and let's say that there are no losses of jobs. And let's say that uh this technology allows Epic to make twice as many video games. Whoa. And by that I mean Fortnite skins. Whoa. What do for the same amount of work, mind you, although in truth, that's not how work works. If you're developing multiple things at the same time, it does take more mental bandwidth and you're kind of going to be stretching yourself a little thinner. But let's pretend that you're not. What do your workers get? What do the people that are making twice as many games get if they I don't And like some might say, well, they're doing the same amount of work, so they should be getting the same amount. No, no, no, no, no. Because now we're getting into the land of especially when we're

talking about Marvel and Star Wars and IP and nonsense. Like again, this story could be cool if Tim tacked on this will allow us to uh give our workers better wages and allow them to have more time off with their families. Like that's that's this thing that makes this exciting. And I'm not even saying that they might not even be doing that, but they sure as hell aren't announcing it,
right? Also, chat continues to be on fire. Uh, someone asked, "What do the workers get?" Uh, Daff's response fired. Uh, that's correct. Um, I also like R2's take on what's AI acceleration. If I put JPT chat GPT to watch all the Fast and Furious movies, does that count? Yes. That's a more productive use of compute time than probably what they're doing. Um, yeah. Like I I don't And I'm kind of with Arasable here. Economy is getting worse. Do they think

people can afford 20 times more games? No.
That's the other like like you got to make the games cheaper. Cheap cheaper. Sell more at cheaper.
Right. And that's another thing. Like I So sorry I maybe I was taking even too of altruistic of a tone with like what people would get excited about with saving money. How will this make games cost less to buy? Let's even talk from the pure individual consumer standpoint. If Epic came out and said, "We're doing this AI thing. It's going to cost us uh a third less, and we're passing the savings on to you." Listen, there's so many other problems with AI and the job losses and all those things and blah blah blah blah blah, but even that would get people on board. It's just they're so lost in their own sauce. Like they can't see why people aren't excited about this. And that's flipping nuts.
Also, again, again, if you tell me that

you spent less time and effort making the game and that fewer people made art that I should be purchasing, why should I care? Yeah. And also truly there's this is a this is an industrywide problem. There's too many games.
And I don't think it's a problem. It's just the solution isn't make more games faster and cheaper. Like and multiple people in in Brad and Janet and chat on both Twitch and YouTube and please message us over on Blue Sky if you're Rocky. Um have said the economy is in the the crapper. like you're going to be selling less games. Even if the richy riches are going to be buying more games, they're still not going to be buying as many as as people who are getting knocked out of c certain uh financial strata did. So, okay, we could we could harp on this

for a long time, but then let's talk about a little bit a story that on its surface seems like there's some there's some bits sticking to the man.
Yeah. So, one of the the the big the big vibe coding story is actually not either of these. We're just picking on Epic because it's Epic.
Well, I think I think it sets up like this is an idea of a company that I don't like what they're doing with um with AI and and and also this sort of plays into just various larger video game companies and corporations how they're sort of mishandling their customers, i.e. PlayStation's uh discless future or whatever Xbox is or isn't doing this week. Um right.
Yeah. So, there's been a new rash of vibecoded ports.
You've probably seen it across social media. It's like they're putting Mario

in Elden Ring or Skyrim and Minecraft mashed together,
right? and they've shown up all over the place and some of them have been PC ports, some of them have been browser ports, and some of them have been have been all of these things. And it's like the new decompile trend. And this is all brought on by Claude 55,
which is apparently a beast at decompiling.
Correct. Which
will could you tell the people real quick what decompiling is in case uh folks aren't familiar?
Sure. So, um The shortest version is that to take a program from being the version that you write to the version that runs, it goes through a one-way transformation, a compiler that takes it from the idea that you had to the idea that runs. Computer scientists, we're keeping this so simple.
Keep it keep the scope
so simple because it's a one-way

operation. getting the code back out so you can do other things with it is more difficult traditionally speaking. Um, Claude the the the latest version of Claude is quite good at that operation at taking a a a program that has gone through the one-way operation of compiling and reversing it in a way that is normally quite difficult to do and very labor intensive. Now let me be excruciatingly clear. This is a good at thing. This is a thing that uh models are good at. This is an automatic process that is quite labor intensive. And it is a good thing that there is a new tool that allows us to undo this one-way transformation for archival purposes, for the way that games are uh for for the way that people understand games, for uh hobbyists looking to get into games to see how things are done.

That part is good, right? And and Jeeoff and I talked about this some last week. There's a bunch of um there's a bunch of uh uses of automated tools in the gaming industry that are good, right? Decompiling code to get information out of a completed project is a good thing, right? We've actually seen many uh uses by people who have had to recode entire games because the original source files were lost. It didn't matter that they had the finished version, right? It had gone through the compiler. They needed the code back so they could make changes and it took forever to remake. Right? You could think of all of the cases where like something has been lost. Okay, cool. Great. Awesome. So that's like the short version. Am I am I?
And now could you could you explain reticulating splines?
No.
Okay. Um, so essentially what's been going on here, and some people were saying how incredibly expensive some of these things are, is people are

decompiling games and then essentially vibe coding them together into browser run things or something else to basically do game mashups. And on the surface, it's kind of neat. It's kind of cool. You could see it. It's silly and whatever. Um,
sub I I I named the wrong I named the wrong model. It's fable 5.1 and that's a API priced token priced. It's quite expensive but it is very good.
Thank you for the question.
So and and a lot of the conversation and I and I agree to this with this to a point um is so in a world like with Sony taking away physical media and basically saying you don't own anything you buy. This has been there's been the sort of like flippity-doo of like, well, if we don't if we if we don't own what we buy, what's the phrase? If if uh
if owning isn't buying, piracy is
if buying isn't owning, piracy isn't

stealing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, that's a very good fun phrase. There's a lot of sort of interesting uh [laughter] logical andor moral workarounds of what that is. I don't disagree on in theory with like I like pe I agree with the sentiment that people are angry.
Right.
Right. Um and like they even lately they decompiled and now released essentially the entire Adobe suite which I have such interesting feelings on. I think that the decompiled Adobe suite is not something you should use, but its existence as a piece of software is one of the highest forms of art possible to make in the modern world. Like the phrase decompiled uh AI assisted Adobe suite is like it is

the encapsulation of our age. We'll talk about why you shouldn't use it here in a bit, but like what a piece of art
because there's there there's the truth is people are angry for a lot of different reasons. Uh and we'll kind of tone it down to software and video games here, but essentially after years of using or or engaging with companies and buying things digitally, many of them, Sony in particular at this point is saying we don't own what we buy. Now, that is to be fair everywhere. You don't own your Steam games. You don't own your digital Xbox games. You don't own your digital Nintendo games. Sony is the first one to take away the option of physically buying one and therefore the only place on their platform you would be actually able to buy and own a video game,
right?
Um, so I just I'm not trying to just

pick on Sony specifically. It's just they are the ones that are actively taking that option away after it has existed with them forever.
Yeah.
Um so people are upset and therefore what happens when people are upset they are going to do things to try to prove things to the people that are upsetting them in this case companies or sort of like hurt them financially. The problem is with something like Adobe and I don't even know what the what the vibe coded like replacement things are called. it doesn't really matter. But apparently now those also have a monthly fee and it's like okay well your your moral high ground here is is dripping away
evaporating rapidly
because because it only like and then there's the whole thing of the the PlayStation uh um jailbreaking consoles is going to get incredibly easy now as well because you can decompile uh essenti from what I understand I'm I'm probably butchering this, but you can

decompile OSS or like uh like versions of OSS, figure out the weaknesses, do the things you want to do, and then do it. Like there was a thing on the previous uh um patch uh or um the operating software on PlayStation 5 that basically just you could link it to a pirate server that had every game just on it jailbroken. And and that happened like it used to be emulators and um pirate pirated things took years to do. Sometimes past a conso's life cycle, but now with these tools, it doesn't matter how quick you can patch it. Like it's just going to keep happening. And again, it's because people are mad. People are mad maybe because of the no disc thing or they think games are too expensive or the economy is crashing and they can't afford to do uh to buy games anymore, right? And so

all of this is sort of like like I I there are elements of this that are good and stick it to the man kind of things, but eventually especially and this is sort of where I get to the scary part of it. you sort of take this to its natural conclusion and that is if if AI software is now so good at decompiling things and decrypting things and doing I know those are two different things. Um, how long until someone uh decompiles TD Bank's website and security? How long until um whatever software that the stock markets sort of run across and and do things are are like there are there and I'm not trying to like be fear-mongery but like
so let let me let me

my my end of my point is and maybe I'm and I would love it if people prove me wrong here. This isn't me like trying to say like this is the only thing these are the things that I am worried about. Everything we do to run our modern lives runs on essentially security that is based on how difficult it would be for a human with a computer to break it.
Right. Like that's the level of security that we normally deal with. Yes.
On the dayto-day the regular civilian living our lives.
Yes. right now that normaly unless we like unless there's another thing that is built that we have to like have a special AI to fight the AI and do all the things and companies have to build that like that feels like it's the next sort of thing to go I'm going to shut up and read some chat here so I know but that's sort of the the feeling that I get.
Yeah. So, uh first off uh chat's got a small correction. Um they're not charging for access to the Adobe software. They're charging for access to

their AI server to do art stuff with it. So there's like an accompanying like
Oh, so you can use So Oh, I see. Because Adobe Suite uses Adobe AI.
Yes. So you can use theirs.
So So you can use theirs still.
It it's it's right
like because it's one thing to be Robin Hood and it's another thing to charge people to be Robin Hood,
right? No, it's it's very much like um uh the the the cyber leaks thing where someone was like, "Hey, I'm I'm I'm stealing all of the GTA 6 code. Please buy my cryptocoin." And you're like, "We'll talk about that in a bit." Um but uh okay so importantly one of the things that gives me some amount of confidence
okay
is that good security software is open source which means it doesn't need to be decompiled the source code is already available good security software does

not rely on not being decompiled for its strength There are plenty of cases where an AI has hacked into something, but a person could have done the same thing. Like it's not it's not better than people at at like
is it not faster though?
It can be. It depends, right? But um
Okay, I'm going to use a lockpicking analogy because I I think that'll help. Again, I this is this is my my my discussion points here are kind of to learn more about it. I'm not trying to say that I am a a knowledge base on this,
right? Okay. So, um if I uh am picking a lock, okay, like a physical lock, use a tension wrench and I pick the pins one at a time. I can do that. That is reasonably precise, reasonably fast. We'll probably get the

lock open. locks not terribly secure. An AI could either, and we don't know necessarily which one it is, pick all the pins and check them faster, right? Or it could just rake attack, which is you put tension on the lock and then you just rake the pins back and forth with a special pick and then you hope that they all line up in the right way to pop the lock open. It's sort of a brute force attack. And [snorts] neither of those means that the lock is insecure. It means that the lock is a lock, right? Like it it doesn't change. Like you might think, oh, my house is less secure because someone can do this thing. But pick guns exist and they do the same thing. like there is already an automated tool that will uh
totally totally totally like in my in my view right AI is not doing anything new

it's just bringing awareness of the fact that plenty of things are insecure and the things that are secure are still secure because they don't rely on you not knowing what the key looks like right they they rely on other methodologies of security
I [snorts] But wouldn't a piece of software that essentially is incredibly good at figuring out software, I guess, is the lay the most layman way I could do this
in the hands of in the hands of more people than it's ever been in before.
Sure.
Doesn't the sheer like don't we turn that lockpick analogy, right, of the the the brute force method, right? Doesn't that that like now pretend that somehow in the multiverse there could be 10,000 people doing that thing at the exact same time when before there was

just one.
Sure. That's existed before. Um that's
but not as easy, right? Like that that I think it's it's proliferation. That's kind of
Sure. But open but like uh cloud computs have existed for since I was in college, right? like cloud compute projects have have existed for a really long time and that's just been parting out projects to other people in the same way right like that it's just compute power proliferation right
Zara does that make sense Zara also makes an incredibly good point because this is something interesting too on my finance sector programming jung the big security concern is social engineering to get access humans are easier to crack than the machine because at a certain point
yes
it's going to be easier to trick uh grandpa and and mom and and grandma uh about something to get into their bank account than hacking [clears throat] the bank.
And that is absolutely true. That is 100% true and a very good reason why it's very important to re-educate

yourselves on how not to get social engineered, right? Like that the number the weakest part of any computer system of any security system is the person. Perhaps you have heard about the um the clipboard, right? Have you ever have you ever heard about this? If you need to get into a building.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You wear tennis shoes, khaki pants, a polo shirt, and carry a clipboard. You can get into so many buildings. You can also do it with a ladder. A high viz vest, a helmet, and a ladder will get you in many more buildings than a key card will because it's a social engineering trick. It's not an R. So like yes you can social engineer a lot of things but you could before right the increase in volume of social engineering is a problem but it's not a different problem it just means it's more of the same problem right so like I think that
I guess my my concern still does stay the same though is the the amount of

people that can use the amount of tools has increased exponentially
like
the amount of people who can use the tools not understanding what the tools are or do,
yes, has exponentially,
which also makes its own
problems, right? Because at least uh someone using a a high-tech tool to do something bad that understands it won't accidentally do other bad things with it. They're just going to do the thing that they want to do with it.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I I the the the moral of this thing, and we can keep talking about it if we want. I just don't I don't want to keep running it back if if uh if people aren't into it or we can if they are. But like
I I don't think if we're bringing it back to video games, I don't think outside of the chuckle and for the memes that these vibecoded mashups are the checkmate that a lot of people think they are.
My turn to be concerned.

Sure. I am hugely concerned um that people are using these tools, these complicated programs that are by the programmer's own admission vibecoded on their machines without checking anything,
right? Like
again, security.
Yeah, it's a security thing, right? Because so you get you get the the Windows access popup, right? Hey, this isn't signed. Well, of course it's not signed. It's a vibe coded app. I want to play Super Mario Sunshine on my PC. Great. You just failed the social engineering test.
But then how many people will do that and how much damage will be done? Like there's like follow me knows, right? Because like this this is this is the high viz vest. This is the ladder. This is the clipboard. This is a piece of candy that someone wants. This is a ban with free candy written on the side, right?

And I I I think that's a a big problem, right, that I think a lot of people aren't aren't talking about. Um, and yes, Toxic Quinn is correct. That's every mod ever. Absolutely.
But also but also you like kind of like with mods like there's something interesting here and this isn't quite here yet because it's so new. Like you go on Vortex or whatever. Uh, and you can see the rankings and how many people have downloaded and the social amount of like, oh, this seems safe. a million and a half people have done this Skyrim mod, right? Like even though it's not quite real, right?
We would we would hope so. Yes.
Yeah. Like
or there are companies like Curse Forge.
Yeah. Like there I obviously I'm not describing a sure proof method of ratings. Um because you get points. Um but the but the but like this where it's like isn't this funny? I made Mario and Elden Ring and it runs on your browser. Go. Right. Like that's not the same because there's no comm there's no community

behind it yet. There's no social checks and balances.
Correct. This is there there's a lot of rogue individual. Okay. Yes. I think that's a very good way of putting it. This tool set is enabling people to publish software under a just trust me bro model rather than going through verification channels like publishing things on GitHub or um uh running things through Curse Forge or Modrinth or Vortex or any of the other mod verification sites, right? amount of vector failing on mods willy-nilly from unknown sources. I tend to download mods from places that have at least ostensibly checked them.
Yeah.
Right. Same idea. Um,

I think I and and the other the other big problem is
What is the other big problem? Did you freeze?
No. No. I have this like it's this gut feeling of like just so we're clear, this is like hella performative, right?
Yeah.
Good. It's also something that like isn't go like
I think I that's why I go back to the like if buying isn't owning piracy isn't stealing thing doesn't work here entirely because corporations are excellent at seeing a problem like this and getting either specific gates or regulation or something that destroys this and punishes people but does not limit them at all. Right? Like because if you're like checkmate, we all got this now. And then they're like, "We are going to sue you into oblivion for copyright infringement if they can find them, right?" Like like and maybe you can

flood the zone, but like at best, let let's let's say let's say let's pretend. I love pretending. Let's pretend all of these mashups or decompiles or things work great, are free, and don't completely uh put worms and viruses into your own systems to run. Let's just pretend that that's true.
We will accept that postulate as a basis of our discussion.
Do we think that companies will actively be like, "Oh, no. We're sorry. Here here's a digital key that you can buy." Like there's a like the only time in real in in real moments that something remote like that happened was in the music industry with Limewire into the iTunes music store.
[snorts]
I will remind you that I don't believe in the iTunes music store you own any of those songs you bought for 99. So it does not the same thing, but enough

piracy happened where they realized 99 cents isn't that much and it became the it it's a social engineering thing for financial and business decisions, right? Like it if it's way safer and easier to download whatever song you want for 99 cents rather than go on the high seas and worry about what you're going to get, people will do it. It's it's people at the end of the day and myself included, we're lazy. We just want the thing to work and rock and roll. I don't think this is a situation that companies are going to be like, "We have to lower our prices. We have to make an easier thing." I think this is going to be and let's even say that for the sake of argument that they do that they do do those things. [snorts] I don't think this will stop. I guess I wish I had a full conclusion at the end of this thought process of like it's just we are at a weird like
we're at this weird center point of a pendulum swing it feels like and I don't

know
where we're going
where it's going to go like does it smash through the other side of the clock? Does it stop dead center at the bottom? Does it move in a third dimension? I have no idea.
Yeah.
Um
unknown. This is all weird. I don't
we Milin we didn't I don't think we're going to touch on this yet but we'll talk about it later I'm sure like in another show Microsoft is already trying to like
essentially
well do this
and Roblox has and like this is the the the diff it's so interesting to me the difference between this and all of like the epic Roblox uh Xbox like onboard AI assistants that are like computer code me a video game that's just like Halo except instead of being Master Chief. I want to be Mario. And instead of rescuing Princess Peach, I want to rescue uh the one of the girls from Dead or Alive. [laughter] I don't know. I was trying.
Did Tina get captured?

Yeah, that's it. Right. Like, okay. Right. Like it.
And then we all go to Zach's Island and we play volleyball with Sepharoth.
Right. Exactly. Right. And then
ah but which Zach's Island? If we're talking about Dead or Alive or Final Fantasy, why not both? They went in on an island.
They're actually a couple now.
It's Yeah. I just I God, it's just the the biggest problem with all of this is that it's exhausting.
Yeah. In fact, I agree. Let's leave it there and move on to some more stories because we gota we got to keep moving. I think this is a fun conversation and by that I mean terrifying but it's something that's going to be evolving and we're gonna be talking about a lot more sadly. So they've got a time share. See Tonnie, you've been watching.
You get it?
You've been watching. And by the way, we do Tonnie, we do have to change your lease into points. So be sure to contact

me. Um I promise it won't be bad at least for 3 months.
Yep. Okay, I have to check our show run because I forget what's next because we spent about as long as I thought we would talking about this.
Yeah.
Uh oh. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Uh, everybody ready? Everybody ready? It's good news time.
Hooray.
Did I not do a graphic for this first story?
You know, I don't know if you did. I don't think
I don't think I did. So, let's
I don't think you did.
Yeah. So, let's wait and we'll just we'll do the story, but we'll we'll just There's no picture the best graphic you've ever seen in front of the table.
Yeah. Um, no, we're not vibe generating it right now. Um,
the mind.
Yeah. Theater of the mind.
Uh, finally, finally, finally,
THE ROCK HAS COME BACK TO GAMES FOR

BREAKFAST. NO. Is that not what it is? [laughter]
No. No. Uh, the cyber leaks of the GTA 6 everything are over hopefully. I'm putting this as good news cuz I'm tired of it. I'm so tired. It It just sucks. It sucks top to bottom. It just sucks. Um, but the dumb the dumbest funniest thing I think is is they said they're going to stop it because like they didn't make their like
they didn't make enough money on their cryptog
and then they said they said I just the way that they worded it is so smug and awful. Um, uh, yeah. Okay. The 30 million was not reached so no build. The leaker said uploading 200 plus gigabytes anonymously is a serious risk worth it only if the milestone funded the secret project. Terms honored as written. Ah yes correct.
You know fa famous things that people who are the good guys fighting big

corporations do hold back things that they have said that they have and could release if you don't pay them enough. It's funny because then they're saying like they don't want to release the full build because it would like really hurt people's experiences, but they were willing to hurt people's experiences if they got $30 million.
Yeah. Oh, $30 million invested in their crypto scam. Let's not forget that like all of this is through the medium of a crypto scam, which immediately invalidates like all of any moral high ground they may have had.
Yeah. Yep. So, uh they said they're going to stop for now. Yay. GTA is going to be out soon anyway.
Yep. Uh they also did announce that if uh Take 2 comes after them that they have a Dead Man switch where like they'll release everything, man. But I feel like what's most likely is that they've watched one too many hacker movies where like the person like has to check in. Like I don't Let's pretend they do. Let's pretend this is real.

Okay.
GTA comes out on November 19th. The second it's out,
it's also going to be decompiled
probably.
And this every piece of whatever that they have will be technically valueless and then Rockstar is free to go after them. Like like there's no like that's the I if I was them that's the thing I would be the most scared of. Like I don't again talking about people that don't think long term enough.
Yeah. Like
they lose all their leverage on the 19th. Yeah. like you in a world where this decompiling trend wasn't happening, there might be some value to having like early builds and like yeah, [laughter] spooky scary skeletons and dead switch on your mind. Uh I think that this is just it's that's going to be the interesting part of the story moving forward is what Rockstar does once they have an infusion of uh checking my notes here. Hold on. Let me just um

Ah, yes. All of the money.
Yes, they will have all of the money on November the 19th. That is true.
Yeah.
Um also, because it's the only time we're going to be talking about GTA 6 today, a note um of of mixed news nature, uh I don't really know how to feel about this, but it is worth mentioning in brief. Uh, it has been confirmed that GTA 6, despite coming out in the middle of November, will be eligible for all of the 2026 Game Awards. So,
okay.
I mean, at least we're getting it out of the way now as opposed to like waiting for all of 2027 and feeling like it's a foregone conclusion. So, like I think that's the best outcome, but like it does make the 2026 Game Awards something I'm looking forward to even less.
I don't know. I here's the thing.
Yeah. The cut off for TGA Grass is correct is the 20th
is the next day.
Yeah. So, here's the thing. I think I'm I'm so curious how long GTA 6 will stay

in the public consciousness because so GTA 5 when it came out obviously was a huge game and GTA online is still played. I love GTA Online. I still thought it was still one of the top Twitch directories because of RP.
It is so popular. But it but but it's popular because of the online truly like the the game is had a AAA sort of run of like the story and everything was going on with it and D and now of course we've talked about this before we're in a much negative more negative media landscape so the game is going to be picked apart even if it's a masterpiece right do we think that the like the GTA 6 has the mystique because they haven't made one in what 11 years
12 years something like that hot second.
But after that, how long is it going to take up the air? I'm just curious. We'll come back and see it. We don't have to like pontificate on. I just I wanted to That's something I've been thinking about.
Yeah. Next up, our uh Wow Forever has a new

interesting tool to combat RMT, real money transactions, which
he loves gold.
He loves gold. [laughter] I think this is the most interesting tool for this. I I'm I'm very intrigued by this and I'm sure that Blizzard's done a bunch of background research on whether or not this is effective, but they've essentially instituted if you're accused of RMT, uh, you will have an economic hold placed on your character.
Well, they actually like investigate what they think. So they're going to do a blanket thing.
Yeah.
Or they have been.
So they've got a new tool. They've got a new tool which is you can't move things off your characters essentially. Your characters are economically locked. You can play the game.
Yeah.
But you can't actually engage with the

economy at all while they figure out if you've been real money trading outside of legality. And with WoW Forever, I am given to understand that this is somewhat more serious than it is in WoW retail. um because the token economy does not exist there either yet or potentially ever
for subscriptions. So um there's not a uh equivalency there's not a fluidity to the market the same way that there is in retail. Um and so I'm I'm I'm quite interested in seeing the impact of this. Uh, I think it's a very cool idea and I do think that having more ways to respond to like specific offenses like this is a very good move from a moderation standpoint, right?
Like it's it's nice. It's sort of in the in my mind in the same way that if you get caught cheating in deadlock, you get turned into a frog and everyone on both teams gets to beat you up until they

vote to release you from being beat up as a frog and then you get perma banned,
right? It's like a it's a it's just like a cathartic like, you know what, this fits. Good job.
Yeah, I I still am looking forward to World of Warcraft forever. I think that will be another time I try to pop back in and get stuff moving. Uh Will and I have some ideas on on uh what we might try to do uh in that space.
Yeah.
Uh that's a little different from when Midnight dropped.
Yeah. Uh okay, Matt, tell me tell me about Belmont's Curse.
It's so good. [laughter] It's James Franco Spider-Man 3. So good.
Um I got to play it a little bit last night. I worked a little bit too late and then I was on I did three podcasts yesterday. Um, but I got to play it from roughly like 9:00 p.m. till like probably midnight. And uh, it is just a joy. Um, I have been waiting for another mainstream Castlevania game forever. I saw it at PAX West, but didn't have a chance to play it. Uh, Jay and I kept

walking by it and just being like, "This line is too long." But I bought my Belmont whip, which is hanging on the side there. I am a Castlevania fanboy through and through. Even when I was home, um, I booted up my old NES and fixed it and then I put in Castlevania 1 and played that for like two hours. I uh am so thrilled that this game feels like a Castlevania game and it feels like and it also does some interesting things with um the tarot card system of how you get spells, etc. that I'm sort of learning. I think if I had criticisms of it, I would say the visuals, which are gorgeous, sometimes don't match the I'll say slightly slower speed of a Castlevania game's combat. Does that make sense? like it sometimes feels a little slower than it actually is.
Mhm.
Um I will also say that the tutorials popping up in certain places feel almost counterintuitive to me learning what's going on. But once you get past that, if you like sort of Metroid vania and Castlevania in particular and if you're

a fan of the Netflix show the first season or any of it really because this sort of bridges takes place between I believe the original Netflix series and Nocturn. Um, this is Rose Belmont, who is Trevor and Cipher's daughter. Um, and the I don't know. I'm just here for the lore. Um, you meet a character called the Fallen early on, and I have theories on who that is. I don't know. It's just it feels really, really, really great. And if you like that kind of stuff, I cannot recommend it enough. I bought it physical.
Speaking of,
an interesting an interesting trend has emerged in PlayStation 5. So, you may recall that one of the justifications that Sony gave and that many other companies were backing Sony up with was why are we making discs? Physical sales are down across the board compared to digital. They're singledigit percentages in some cases of the total amount of games sold. Why would we keep doing this? It's not economical and so we're

going to stop. And then this recent crop of games came out, including Wolverine, which there's been a lot of discussion about Wolverine. I have no stake in that.
Wolverine sold great. I have not played it, and it seems like there was some annoying things with it, but it sold great.
Yeah. And 35% of those sales were physical, which is wild. Now, also Silent Hill, Silent Hill, Townfall, and um Don Walker. God, Don Walker seems so cool. Um the they're they're all up as well. And you have to wonder like is it because Sony is saying that their games are going away like like and and that might be like I think so I got Belmont's Curse on PS5.
Mhm. I it does feel more like a Switch 2

game for me, but the patch to make it 60 fps isn't like out. I don't know if it is.
Sure.
And so if it's coming. So I thought, you know what? I this feels like another Symphony of the Night. I kind of want to experience on a big screen and I'll do it at home. It doesn't need to be portable.
Sure.
Sony's decisions felt like a wakeup call to me and I think to a lot of other people. Yep. And I don't think that this means like, oh, they're taking it away so people are getting it before they're gone. I think that might be part of it, but I think it's awakened a need. Like I, to be completely fair, don't know if I would have bought Belmont's Curse physically had this whole thing not been going on.
Yeah.
But it's a wakeup call and I'm I'm not glad for the decision, but I'm glad I woke up to it. And like again, going back home, popping the cartridge of Castlevania 1 into my NES, it still plays. Now I have a disc that I can pop into a PS5 with no internet and it still plays, right? Like [snorts] and I think

more and more people are waking up to the value of that. And there's it's look, it's not going to be the majority of sales, but 30 something% of Wolverine.
Yeah.
That's not nothing.
It's very not nothing.
Yeah. other games that we love that are doing weird interesting things. I think it's it's so weird. We just had a short come out on No Man's Sky 10th anniversary and how it's still chugging along and how you still can't buy it. Uh so how you still can't give Shawn Murray more money unless you have an iOS device. That iOS [laughter] device, you will soon be able to give Shawn Murray more money.
More money
cuz they are porting No Man's Sky to iOS. Now, it won't have the multiplayer, but it has 99% of everything else that the console and PC version does.

It's crazy.
Which
I'm really curious. I'm going to get it and try it.
I like I can't
if this is a game that is truly offline.
Yeah.
This is a Subway game. Oh yeah. No, no, no. Like, but
like this would unseat Bellatro as a a game I could pick away at on the subway.
Yeah, it does. There is one other notable exception, which is they couldn't get settlements working on some versions of iOS. Like there are some iOS specific like hang-ups that they're still working on. But like,
okay,
you got No Man's Sky to run on an iPad. What? Like that's that's wild. Uh
crazy. I'm looking forward to seeing how it works.
Yeah. Um very excited, very happy. Uh also very proud of the short that we did on it. You should go check that out. You can find it over on the shorts tab. Um very happy with that as well. So I think how

Janet, you too can buy, sorry to interrupt you, Will. You too can get a cup of mystery over at our webtorm if you would like. You then would know the color of it. I bet you can't guess.
Yeah. [laughter] Sean Murray got No Man's Sky to run in a cave with a box of scraps. Yeah,
that's true.
Yep. Uh, okay. Unfortunately, that's the end of our good news.
Yeah. Here we go. Let's get the bad news going,
which means it's time for some bad news. All right. Uh, on our train of bad news, first off, put your taken off caps on to take them off for League of Legends classic.
I love
Yeah,
I thought I was going to sing Under You. Oh,
okay. So, in in in in classic Riot fashion, they have a side project that

didn't perform up to their expectations, and now they're canning it completely. In early 2027, League of Legends Classic will shut down uh for the moment. It may return a different changed form. Uh but they are of course refunding all of the uh transactions that will go away. Um
it makes sense. Like I it I I get it. I was never a League person, but League is a pro like you're not it's not the same as an MMO. It's not the same as Runescape. It's not the same as Warcraft. like it's just not the same game and therefore revisiting the older version of the game will feel worse when you don't have the things in those games that that revisiting an older version gives you like so like while it's a novelty and it's neat uh I don't think that I I think this is the right call it does suck for anyone who's enjoying it but I I just don't think it can survive.
Yeah. They also mentioned that it might be like a temporary mode or something else that they bring back cuz like it is interesting for a little while to like

play League as it was. However, the other point that I've seen made about this is League is not an MMO.
Yeah.
You probably don't actually have nostalgia for like ye olden days.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like it's not. You don't. You you might think you do, but you probably don't because the the the way that MOBAs competitive games evolve is generally for so much uh like there have been so many improvements and also yes, they kind of did like the classic Millu homage uh which is um not really the same as picking like we're doing season one again or like the the the roster from a very specific uh world tournament year, which I think would be cool, by the way. Revert to like a specific patch from a specific famous tournament, right? Like I think Dota could do that with like we're going to release we're going to have an event where you play on this

patch from this year.
Okay, that's that would be cool. That would be interesting. Yeah.
Um okay. Uh the other piece of bad news and yes other there are only two today.
There's only two except for the main one.
Yeah.
Legacy games. Now we're not talking about a kind of game. We're talking about a store called Legacy Games. And you may or may not be familiar with them. They're in kind of the same silo that GOG is, which is they are a company that lets you buy classic video games and according to them own them forever. Unfortunately for everyone who is a patron of legacy games, forever in this case means until February 2027 when their servers go offline permanently. This is kind of the other big problem with buy forever digital services.

If you don't have space to keep them, you don't really have it forever. You just have it until the store stops working. So, um I I'm I'm kind I'm really bummed about this actually because I feel like this is a thing that many people proclaim to want. And if they can't get it to work and be consistent and sustainable, then those people won't have their desire met. And that bums me out.
I think the thing though is and and I think Chris kind of nails it. No one has anything forever. like like again I think this still does I believe legacy lets you download the install file or something that you don't need to like whatever like you can have the files like go
I if I am buying something like that in my head and I don't know if this is how their marketing is or even legacy game

like who knows how people how they market themselves what they market themselves as I don't in my mind think their servers are going to be up forever. In my mind, I think I now have the files that I can move around and store however I want. And yeah, does my hard drive die? Does the disc I burnt it to crack? Does you know, all that stuff? Sure. Sure. Sure. But that happens with any physical game, right? Like it still can. Yep. So, like I don't I'm sad that this company who is doing this is stopping doing it,
but I don't think this is a uh and again I haven't looked into their like marketing. If their marketing is was was something that they said like you'll be able to download this from us forever, well then yeah, then they suck. But like I doubt they did. Um they might have hinted at it. They might have been a little disingenuous. Who knows? Um, so I'm sad that they're closing, but I don't think this is a like uh uh a user, what's the word I'm

looking for? Like I don't think users are getting screwed.
Yeah, I don't think so either. It just it's a it feels like it's an example of an experiment in a field that lots of people wanted to succeed that isn't working.
Yeah.
Right.
So, RIP Legacy Games. All right, let's talk about a piece of uh news that's good, but really law focused. It's time for Gaming the Law. [music] All right, it's happening. Everybody remain calm. I need everybody to remain so calm. This is Representative Richie Torres. Richard Torres uh has represented the 12 15th Congressional District of New York since 2021.
Yep.
Uh he's a congressman from the state of New York in the House of Representatives

for the um uh for the entire US. Okay, cool. Great. Awesome. This is not a state. This is the US. He's introduced an act called the Power to the Players Act. It would direct the Federal Trade Commission to create regulations protecting ownership rights for video games. This is the thing. This is this is it. Um his press release says, "Consumers must have the right to own, the right to play, and the right to transfer the games they buy. A game that can be taken away the moment a company pulls a plug is not a purchase, is a rental disguised sale. Families in the Bronx and across the country save up to buy these games, and they deserve better than a license that can banish at any time. Power of the Players Act ensures consumers own what they buy and can keep playing long after a company moves on. Now, let's be very realistic for a hot second. Okay, this is still in committee

right before the midterms introduced by a Democratic Congress person.
But also, I want to put out there, I put this little seal on this graphic. Um, this man also formed the Congressional Crypto Caucus. Now, nonpartisan voting block in Congress ready to mobilize to support and defend open, permissionless, and private innovation in the United States. Now, you can take that a lot of different ways and there is a possibility that something like blockchain could make ownership of a digital thing more real if implemented in a actual way. Um, but I I haven't loved this so far. And this look, I think putting this putting this particular uh uh proposal up is

good, but I worry about even if it does pass, what the implementation of it would look like. Does that make sense?
Mhm.
So like I do think this is good. I don't think maybe where it's coming from is the best. Does that [laughter] make sense?
I agree. I I think it is a thing that we are going to keep an eye on either way, right? Like this is not this is not is the legislation good or bad. This is not is the legislation likely to pass or not. This is this legislation exists.
Yep.
And this is the person who is championing it and we will pay attention to it because win lose or draw, this will probably have some amount of impact on the way that the gaming industry does business in the United States.
Yep.
Uh so we'll know more. I can't actually find the full text of it. Um,
I have the the house text, but that's about [snorts] it. Uh, this the

press release is literally from yesterday,
right? So, this is this is a brand spanking new off the press kind of.
So, we'll see. I'm sure this isn't the last time we'll talk about this.
Absolutely. Okay. Uh oh, my turn.
Uh, we're going to
Your turn.
My turn.
Will's turn.
My turn.
[music]
I've heard of this game called Magic the Gathering.
Whoa. Are we gathering magic?
The We're gathering magic from the Darkhold.
What? Yeah, that's correct, actually. And it's magic both with and without a K. Uh, over the past weekend, the new Magic crossover set for with Marvel for next year got announced. If you're surprised that there's another Marvel crossover set, I encourage you all to count the Infinity Stones. They have already announced that they are contractually

locked in to do one set for each of the Infinity Stones. There will be Marvel sets for the next several years. Brace yourselves. However, they are making a huge change with this one in particular, which gives me great hope for both the future of Universes Beyond and for this set in particular. which is that they are working with the Marvel team to create a new magic specific storyline for this set which finally leans into one of the strengths of Marvel and comics and uh remains true to the idea of magic. So, if you're not familiar, in brief, every set of magic since very shortly after uh Arabian Knights has had a story of some description. It has fit into the larger Magic lore picture and has had a story. the

legendary characters on the cards have had [snorts] backstory and there's lore and there's an ongoing universe that exists, a multiverse in fact, kind of like Marvel's multiverse. Um, and um, one of the problems that people have had with universes beyond is that it has not felt [clears throat] that way. Right? For instance, the previous Marvel set and the Spider-Man set and the Teenage Mut Ninja Turtle set all felt like they were and here's a cast of characters. Here's 47 Spider-Mans. I It's
They could have done Spider Island, but they didn't.
Is too many Spider-Mans. It's too many Spider-Mans. Um, however, with this one, the Darkhold Destiny set, they are actually leaning into this strength and creating a unique story that will play out through the set.
Thank you. I'm excited for this. This is the most excited I've been for a Universes Beyond

franchise I don't particularly care for. I'm not a huge Marvel fan anymore. Uh for me, um it ended with Endgame.
Uh and but this though truly does feel like like the the magic side of Marvel, no pun intended, feels more like it makes sense as Planaines walkers than anything else. Like it makes more sense for Scarlet Witch to be ping around with uh Jace. Were he alive? Um,
rest in peace, Jace.
Yeah. Then like um I don't know Iron Man, right? Doing it.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've already got we've already seen some cool stuff. Um Magic, for instance, the character, not the game, transforms into Darkchild, which is cool. Like they've got um all kinds of interesting new mechanics planned. They're working with the Marvel, the writing team. I'm excited for this. Um,
also another thing real quick to someone brought up and I did want to mention is the Wizards of the Coast uh unionization things are kind of underway as of right now. Wizards responded and did the weird like backwards math thing saying they

will not they decided to uh they decided to
not voluntarily recognize the
not voluntarily recognize but will respect the vote should they vote to go in. Like there's like a weird backwards thing. I'm still trying to decode it.
They they don't think that this is this is what companies do when they don't think the vote will pass or when they think that they can union bust hard enough that the union vote won't pass in the meantime. [snorts]
However, if you are a person who is a fan of either Dungeons and Dragons or Magic the Gathering, go support the Union, right? Um pretty much every Magic content creator is on board with the union. uh a lot of the thirdparty tools. Scrifall, which is the de facto um repository of knowledge for all things Magic the Gathering is a third-party independently run thing, is super in on this. Like
is there is there an active way people can actually like actually support this

that aren't there? Like cuz I guess like yeah, everyone can say that they're on board with it, but like what's the what's the active?
Let me let me find the um petition. Uh there is a petition which you can petition is a good start
which you can uh add your name to.
The problem the problem I don't even know like cuz like okay so let's say it doesn't pass or they don't recognize you or whatever. It's not like people are going to stop buying Magic cards. You know what I mean? That's kind of the that's kind of the thing.
What [snorts] are the odds the that Watsi hires the Pinkertons? Who knows? We'll deal with that when it when it happens. But there it is. actionetwork.orgwatsy /uwatsi petition uh is the place that I have uh found. It's part of the communication workers of America. Um you can add your name to it to help uh show the amount of support that the public has for the union up the union. Uh the people who make these things that

we enjoy deserve fair compensation, great working conditions. I want all of them to be so happy, healthy, wellfed, well taken care of, so we can get great art for as long as we care to enjoy it. Um,
yeah.
Yep. Uh, okay, Matt, I believe it is now your turn.
Yeah, it's my turn now.
Matt Matt's turn now.
Graphic go. [music] Because Grant's like me, [laughter] he's a digger. And I love all I could think about the entire time I was watching the film Digger was this beginning scene of Jurassic Park. Um, Digger just dropped, I think, two weeks ago at this point. We have a podcast up and the only podcast about movies if you'd like a more in-depth look at it.

Um, I wanted to bring it up because it has been getting panned. Then the advertising started talking about how it got panned and now it's getting less panned. I think Digger is 90% brilliant, 10% awful, and I'm still debating if the 10% is enough to ruin the experience for me. I don't want to spoil anything, but there's one particular moment and not the end that um makes me question exactly the methodology and the messaging that the movie is positing where 90% of other places it's entirely clear. I think this is a movie that has a lot to offer and it might not be like enjoyable through and through to watch, but it is the most in my opinion kind of largest and effective um

humans destroying the earth kind of messaging in a weird way, climate disaster, etc. that we've got. I don't know if where it ends up gets you where you need it to be. But I also find it interesting like it's a it's a weird ask of a movie. But I think I would if you have the time and the funds ask you to go see it. I'm not saying you're going to like it. I think there's something interesting here to discuss between either maybe sometime here if we do like a movie club or something or uh amongst your friends because this has way more legs for discussion. I want to go see it again because I want to see if I feel the same way knowing all of the things I know about the movie now. Um, I don't know. This this feels oddly important and I think it is worth time if you can spare it. Um, so yeah, that was it. It's just it's it's funny because I can't talk about it anymore because truly

talking about any of it kind of does spoil
sure
some of the ways it works. Um, but yeah, I'd be interested if people have seen it. You could message me on Blue Sky or you could talk to me in the Discord if you're there.
Okay, cool. Cool. Uh, and now for our weird weird dessert segment. So, [laughter] there are a bunch of ways that people have done artificial intelligence in gaming, LLMs, uh, generative models for imagery, for other stuff. Lots of people line in lots of different places on how much or how little they want the games that they consume to use generative AI. Some games are going to the extreme of making characters that are powered by LLMs.

Teach My Little Sister How to Drive is one of those, except it's not out yet. It's a demo. It's a demo in which the character teaches their little sister run by an LLM how to drive. Unfortunately for the developers, the demo, again, a demo, not the full game, got super popular and drove their token costs up to about 1,000 per day for a tiny indie studio to keep their demo working. Because without that ongoing payment of token costs, their demo stops working because it doesn't do anything without the the character who's the point of the game being run by an LLM. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, it's uh it's not it Oh, and and uh and yes, it's not super popular.

It's more popular than they thought it would be or they didn't think about scaling token costs.
That's my that's my whole thing. It's like if 400 people are playing like and that's costing you $1,000. I don't think the cost of your game will I don't think this will net out uh the way that you need it to.
Yeah. Uh for the paid release, we plan to account for expected AI usage and the game's price. Players will not be charged separately for their individual AI token usage after playing the game. This is because each player is particularly expensive to support. the total costs increased because so many people are playing and we have taken out a bank loan to keep the demo running. 99% of gamblers stopped just before they hit it big. Put a second mortgage on your HOUSE AND PUT IT ALL ON BLACK. LET IT RIDE, [screaming] BABY.
WOW. Uh how Okay. What's [laughter] the price point of this game?
Unknown. They they have not uh they have

they have not said
I don't know man. It feels bad.
It does. It feels bad. This is sort of like the big cautionary tale, right? Like I think I think let me put it this way. There's a lot of room to have a lot of interesting discussions about where in the continuum of AI usage we would like games to land. I think we can all point at this and say, "Hey, cautionary tale. Think about long-term consequences, right? Thought about long-term consequences in the way that games with AI not disclosures on Steam are less likely to receive large numbers of reviews, which are generally, but not always, correlated with sales. It is a financial risk to have a game with an AI disclosure on Steam." There are studies on this,
right? This is the other side of that which is you need to be prepared for excess financial risk if you ever allow

players to spend real currency by playing the game. And this is this is like the other cautionary tale, right? So just Yeah,
it's all vibes, man.
Yeah.
Which I guess does bring us to the end of Games for Breakfast this week. Thank you all so much for hanging out. We are happy to be back. We got two big shows coming up. Uh we got next week will be Will's birthday breakfast. The following week will be our Halloween extravas spooky ganza. I don't know. Uh we're getting we got some stuff
like where we can see the ways that Portal has been influential. If Portal is as we remember it, neither of us have played it in oh a very long time that will make your bones turn to dust. Uh we're going to take a look at Portal and uh you know go through and poke it with a stick and see how see what it makes us think about game design. And so please uh join us uh on on Tuesday for that.
Yes. So I guess the last thing really is

to just do our patented goodbye to everyone to send everyone off into the week. Uh so we have a sense of camaraderie and togetherness that's the same every time. And you know why it's the same every time beyond all of those things. And I think this is where I I need everyone in both chats, Brad and Janet to chime in. I I've never asked this before, but this is very important. I mean, to be clear, I've never asked it before, but it's always been implied because like we're just going to sort of like, you know, as we always do, kind of like, you know, like vibe out like the ending, you know, like whatever. Like I feel like we all just have to say the same thing because we're all so in tune. So, in 10 seconds, I need you all to just vibe out the exact same thing as everyone else at the same time. Are you ready, Brad and Janet? And you could vibe with us on Blue Sky, too, if you want, Rocky. Please do. In 10 98, 76 54

3 2 1 vibe.