The Impact of Team Size, Community, and Industry Trends on Game Development | 345

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev unchain the number one game development podcast about game development and the live sty thereof I am your host Brandon fam and with me it's that time of the month Ray Graham how you doing Ray how you doing Brandon what's up all right uh for those who have read the title episode we are going straight into Round Table [Music] news I can see you that yeah you got something got something in your teeth too oh yeah you you don't have a mirror this dude I just ate I just ate some uh bell peppers bro I see I see that's that's staying in staying yeah for people who

want to watch the video who just only listen to the audio podcast oh my goodness all right never give me a break uh what you been up to man people uh just living life you know out here people uh struggling to find one job but you're you're working too just like taking all the jobs now taking all the jobs out in the B no man yeah it's it's it's it's time it's time to do my own thing you know it's time to try to try to build something um that I am responsible for and and try to build a team and try to get money and try to do all the things so so that's that's what's happening right now and that's that's pretty good but in in the meantime I'm also like like I also want to continue helping people out building teams and building cool stuff right and so uh while we while we build up the thing I'm also

kind of working working with with some some people that I know helping them build out their studio and and hire their team and and working on some cool stuff so it's it's kind of a a win-win type of situation yeah but it's definitely like a lot of work right now because like you said it's basically two jobs yeah I mean what's the temperature like um there's a couple of things to gauge right I know you're you're heavily involved with gam head you know helping uh education uh and then uh and at the same time you're in the Bay Area which has been heavily influenced with what's going on with the industry like do you feel like the curve for new students curve for people slowly you know bouncing back like has the has the storm passed no you feel like no okay

like in terms of people losing their jobs I think that storm has passed but in terms of people looking for jobs right now um the picky like from the people I'm talking to not just for young people like I'm even talking to some senior people and and everybody I'm talking to is kind of like the the it's very slim pickings out there um in terms of like the dream job or a job for a senior person or like like being picky is not a thing that's happening right now as far as far as I can tell um you know with everybody scaling back on the projects that they're working on I think that's contracted the amount of available jobs that are out there there there's still jobs out there but it's just like there's a lot of people also looking right so it's just it just seems to be really hard right now well I mean at least on my side yeah it still seems pretty tough like there's just so many people out of work to suddenly be having work right it just doesn't

work that way it takes a while to kind of ramp up so I I think you know originally I kind of heard through the Great Vine that it'll it'll take a couple quarters um basically until June uh to to kind of feel like uh like the industry has legs again um however you know we've talked about this many times it's like the industry is still healthy you know uh like in terms of like a week we Define healthy well a week a week later that company X company right uh lays off a bunch of people X company records record high profits right it's like they they announce usually like that that was the best year we've ever had uh we have Studios kind of bragging how much money they're saving with these layoffs I mean uh I've heard like major Studios and I'll quote because I can't really name them like they save like 300

million dollars you know per quarter of these type of layoffs you know that's a huge amount yeah um that you can't just Overlook um and we've talked about you know this is an overcorrection you know there has been a lot of over hiring uh in the co years right so you know people use as an excuse to kind of balance the sheets a bit uh sadly and you know that's that's that's the case yeah and honestly there's there's a lot of games there's a lot of games out there too a lot of games getting made right so a lot of these a lot of these studios are like okay maybe we need to focus the lineup you know reduce the amount of games that we got going on and and also try to make them better and higher quality um and in the meantime save save money right by by

laying off a whole bunch of people so there's a couple things I want to kind of get into which is has been like the recurring theme I feel like the past year year and a half and it's actually been pretty inspirational for a time when devs are kind of lost and not sure they want to go back to like bigger companies and maybe looking to size down or looking to like maybe you know uh look for a new direction for their career as in like uh maybe trying to Sol Dev I know a lot of developers right now who who've been kind of hit by some of this stuff is like uh rolling up their sleeves and going ufn I mean people are looking for Alternatives which is usually what happens when you get laid off you question everything yeah uh and you can't help but feel that there needs to be another way or at least prevent uh this very terrible thing ever happening again I mean especially for veterans it's like yo how many hits like this can

I hit take right so like this this piece of news is actually pretty interesting uh it's kind of been the thing that's been going on lately like this past year we see po worlds we see like these kind of smaller teams making it big right uh Baler Gates is at best is like a daa team right but they basically uh the the publishing director publishing director basically said marking is dead and this is a game I feel like starting that um that trend of like uh no advertising right it just comes out and and through a lot of buzz like really Finds Its way through success right you don't see TV commercials you don't see journalism anymore sure but I I don't I would take a step back from that and say that they came out with a more Community Focus approach right like it it came out in Early Access yeah for years like it wasn't just like a onee Early Access either right it was out for

like two three years in Early Access and so like and and also like it's DND right like you could say that um marketing's dead and all that but if you're making like a a licensed property which you know balers gate is a licensed property yeah right um to a bunch of nerds and let's be real like like we make we love to play video games we are nerds right and uh and d& the vend between d and d and nerds is like a perfect circle um you know like there's a lot of things that that that made that game successful and you know they executed it was a great game right um with great story and and all of that but they they had the time to do that to build on their they were basically building on their their past successes um yeah and so like yeah like it works in that case but now let's say I'm coming out with a brand new

IP is marketing dead I don't I think I still think I got to market the people but I also have to do all the other things so right build build community get people interest to your game get people bring people along with the development of your game yeah there's definitely like a lot of things to consider obviously yeah um you know it wasn't just a it's B Gates 3 first of all right it's like you know it's the third in it series um what's impressed about the game also is like it came out during like a very crowded market in terms of magic right magic was nowhere to be found and suddenly there's like three games about magic um coming that year but bald Gate's obviously kind of uh risen from the Heap of trash right that is everything else uh and and and did really well there were a few things that that I think really stuck out to me when he was quoting like certain things like marketing's dead

uh like in terms of like traditional uh avenues like journalism uh TV commercials you know these are like very heavy uh loaded uh type of um uh avenues that that just were well for a lot of games it's unattainable right like uh for a lot of games it it's just um too expensive bloats out the projects and not a lot of on investment right yeah uh and the reason why I I feel like this certain article resonated like we saw like a bunch of these type of games like a bunch of these type of games really such as po World such as um what's the other game with the space one um H I got Lethal Lethal lethal company lethal company right there's like four of them I think that just kicked off the year one after another that just happens

to like uh a battle bit remaster like these type of games right just uh the Early Access getting people to have handson is the new Avenue uh of of advertising well it's not new right well like it's it's before we used to have demo CDs you know before we have uh I think steam is probably the the the the oldest version of that I don't even think you were you were alive when demo CS were thing I I played some demo CS man I had some Net Zero I think you're I don't think you're alive in them times but um no but um but yeah I don't think Early Access is new like right because it's it's it's how long's it been now it's at least 10 years right since people been doing Early Access maybe shorter but it seems like forever I feel yes Early Access has been a thing but I I I don't think it's been this popular um until recently honestly I think it's

I think it's because there's so much competition the market is so crowded and stuff yeah um you you bringing building Community around your game is a really big important factor in in getting people interested in your game and and so you could show to I'll get on it yeah so you can show to Publishers and and and financiers look how much people support our game please give us money right because I I feel like the the Publishers and the financiers are even more risk adverse now yeah because because they they some of them have lost their shirts or or made a lot of bad bets didn't really know what they're doing I think a lot of them still don't know what they're doing and what a good game is right and so now they're like well we need more proof points to drisk your game and so that's

where Early Access can can really help right you put in some Sweat Equity you get a Early Access game out there um that you can show hey I have now 10,000 2,000 30,000 people playing the game this many wish list or whatever right um and then that can help go oh okay maybe your thing is actually something we should invest in since people like it right um so so it's just it's just another way that people people that don't know necessarily how to pick good yeah are now like they're using that as another number uh to help them D risk projects yeah I mean there's definitely a uh uh a big um a big push for for seeing no [ __ ] right I think a lot that that's been like so many players have been burnt uh they've gotten a lot smarter in

terms of like the the The Game Dev uh uh cycle right they like there's more Gamers understanding game development than before I feel like at least some more insight right in terms of vocabulary right when I look on these sites man they're they were mentioning they're not as obviously as knowledgeable as we are behind what thing what the things are but there's but there's definitely more interest in terms of like understanding crunch understanding uh pushing a product out with a patch I think there's some yeah I think there's some maybe they mention those kind of words right but at the end of the day I I still see like developers will complain about Crunch and working conditions and forming a union and doing this and that and the vast majority of Gamers will be like yo where's the game at shut up yeah where's the game at right and so

like I don't think they really and then some of them that claim to to know like this is this spout nonsense right most of the time right yeah so so like I don't know if that's any different or is trending any other way that it has always been you know what I mean like at least not from what I'm seeing um I don't know if they're more Savvy maybe more people want to make video games or more interested in video games but but in terms of savviness I think people are just like yo give me my give me my thing where's it at you know yeah uh there's definitely some of that for sure I feel like uh I feel like the the you know it's it's in response to a lot of Gamers out there game developers that that have have been kind of been in this mindset of

uh especially triaa right I feel like triaa are are comfortable with the idea of releasing something having some time to to polish it after launch right I mean it's gotten worse I remember I remember the time when uh you know we were we were at the edge of like all right we can release this it's basically an empty disc and we'll just do a day one patch right M and I was like man this is this is definitely going to be a problem because you know I think bigger studios are more uh they more they lean more towards like uh really playing on the edge of things right they're more likely to do the day one patch they're more likely to to to cram as much stuff as they can they most more likely to go over budget right

because they they're not faced by the repercussions of that as much of a smaller team a smaller team is like Hey we're running out of time you feel it immediately it's like hey we are going to miss a paycheck or we're going to have to size down on like these extra things you know we're we're not going to we got to let someone go to finish this game we're going to like like the the transparency uh there's from from from the person kind of making these decisions to the person's doing this stuff is a lot a lot lot well non-existent in a lot of cases in these smaller teams in their bigger teams you you're able to kind of comfortably be behind these Gates and it is at these bigger Studios that that you basically get blindsided when you when you're like day the next day you have no money and suddenly you have no job right it's it's very sudden uh where at small you see can you can start seeing in the gradual

decline if if things aren't working out right you see you're face to face uh with the the founder with the owner right you can see the stress right they're they're a lot more open about the everyday woses right and and so you can at least prepare for yourself but at the same time there seems to be more consideration of of of doing things on time like doing things right right like ethically I think small studios are more inclined to like because there is so much transparency to to try harder right I I think not a necessity because they're a smaller studio right like yeah you know like so they might not have millions of dollars in the bank to to rest on or or or or big budget other title that's going to sell that will make up the loss or anything like that right um for a lot of them that's it you know what I mean and so it's just it's way more um life or death I feel like

right so there's more urgency right with you're a smaller Studio unless you have like unless you have a huge hit game that just goes [ __ ] wild and then and then you can kind of really take your time you know well speaking of a huge game that did really well right you were just mentioning this before the call um me and their Lords right uh is doing really well right and this is U you know I brought up the other fact with Baler Gates is because uh I'm starting well I I keep seeing it like it's kind of like the theme of the year right like one hit from a small team happens it has its time to shine usually a month a month and a half which is a generous amount of time considering how many games uh come out this game came out I think it was I was reading on it uh 3 2 million wish

lists uh it came out in the weekend so as of this podcast um you know 425 right or something like that 426 when it came out in the weekend sold a million copies uh everyone's talking about it it's having its moment uh you know uncontested right now like 60,000 concurrent players which is super impressive and it's a solo Dev mhm apparently mhm right um and it's really I think that the idea of a solo dev has in terms of quality like this right we've always been kind of used to solo Dev 2D graphic top down Sid scroller something like that but I I think it was like maybe a few years ago where this the idea of a solo Dev of like basically AAA quality game um was I I wouldn't go kind of new I wouldn't go that far except not AA quality but but it's it's uh seven years

in development yeah is is a long time right and and and it's because it's one like a solo Dev right yeah and then I'm also surprised that um like this type of game is my jam right like I'm into SIM Colony Sims and Forex games and all that kind of stuff yeah um but I I don't think Forex games sell this well this fast what what what do you think is is the difference with this game so far as we playing through it I think some people were initially calling it like a total war killer saying that it was like Total War but but even more stuff and it's not Total War like at all right and and the dev even had to clarify that um that might have helped some of the momentum behind it or people were like expecting although I also don't think Total War does Total War sell that much I don't even know I don't even know the numbers are right not in a weekend like

yeah these all seem like Niche games right but also I think the fact that it's um single Dev and it looks this good it looks good like don't get me wrong um I think I think that has made people go oh man let me check this out right and um it's a selling point yeah yeah but I think like most like there's some really good Colony Sims [Music] and I guess I just don't know the numbers how well those G games do but I didn't think those games did this well this fast well it doesn't um it hasn't made the news like this for a while we can say that yeah yeah for sure like Sim games take a while and but there's some there's some Sim games that you know for Civ uh Millennia just came out there's the ano games and the those teams work on those games for years and and every these updates and and patches there's endless Space games there's endless Legend there's dois right there's a lot

of like I love all these games right but like none of them struck me as like the media talking about them 247 everybody talking about them you know what I mean um but they but they have kind of a really long taale in terms of like loyal fan base and and buying buying of content packs and things like that um but but this this is kind of surprising me yeah yeah it's very promising I mean it seems to be in uh up and not just the game but the idea of like being a solo Dev or a smaller team being able to Output pretty quality game uh complicated game like a Sim um I'm surprised you know you're playing on PC game pass which makes me kind of like realize you know that that that uh that that that marketing uh route you know um hasn't really been explored enough I'm I mean we've heard so many games like powerarts kind of benefited from uh the

game pass you know people were able to try it and it it still didn't hurt sales like um maybe because a lot of Xbox people don't buy they just have Game Pass so maybe that's why who knows uh and people who don't have a Game Pass usually don't have a Xbox or whatever right so they don't care but I'm very surprised that um that that this is that is a thing that now where uh a game actually does and can do well if it's being offered free on One Marketplace and it it's a completely the different audience there is no cross uh contamination in terms of hurting sales which which sounds pretty promising yeah or maybe it would have sold more if it wasn't on Game Pass I don't know man yeah I don't know I don't know either honestly and um and like every time I think about Game Pass like Starfield was on Game Pass and and some

other games are on there like I don't understand why those games are there because it seems like it would cannibalize sales but but somehow it doesn't so yeah I don't know there's another game I don't know if you had a chance to try right um Moon Studios no rest for the wicked I mean that that's that's definitely a game that that's been making the news it's kind of been sort of mixed it's not like overly as celebrated as I thought it would um a lot of people are like give it a chance so what I haven't played with it is it just because it's hard or is just so different from like the what they've done before like ory of the blind Forest it's definely way different than aie right um it looks great um but yeah it's kind of like it's hard it's it's it's um it's a Rog like it's a GES very much uh

Demon Souls Vibes you know what I mean um but yeah it's it's um I haven't played I didn't play very long I played it for a little bit and I haven't managed to get back to it but um but it it's it's hard the combat is hard com it's like skill-based combat kind of thing like you know it's all about perfect perfect parry and dodging and all that kind of stuff right so you know you know I like it um but um but terms of like Mass Appeal is very it's very it's it's hard it's very limited it's hard yeah is it because of the genre or is it just it's such a departure from their fan base of what they did with aie do you feel like they're like finding a whole new audience and have to start over with this one or what do you think yeah I I could I could see people that are into Orie not necessarily being into the it's complete different game right yeah um but um but like I don't

know if it matters right because it's I it's it has actually gotten some good marketing right and it was at the it was at the game awards had a video at the game awards and stuff like that right um and then when it was coming out everybody's talking about it um but it is you know it's early access right so it's going to be like a long it's a long long play into into um into full release so we'll just see how it how it goes so like this is why wanted to bring the Early Access like a game like this even though Moon Studios is not indie anymore right I feel like they're full-blown double a um published but it's a published game it's published by private division Yeah Yeah Yeah by I guess a part of 2K um but they went the Early Access ra right so do you feel like this is more and more becoming because it's so acceptable now more viable for bigger and bigger games like do you ever see

a maybe not Call of Duty but a game of that size right doing Early Access like it's full like a full-blown $70 game opening itself up Midway it's not7 game it's like a $40 game yeah but like like it it like is it creating a road map for like the $70 game to to allow Early Access midpoint of development I don't think I think also like the do early access it it depends on the type of game you're making too yeah so it has to be a game that is that like invites replayability yeah right where rep replayability is actually a thing about the game because if you do Early Access and then I can just play through the game and is broken or whatever yeah and or ruin some of the story plots or whatever and then I'm like yeah so like I'm not going to play this game anymore right so I think only certain type of game can really do Early Access

effectively um but the see it more um is not that surprising like giving like the economics of the whole situation you know what I mean um where where like hey we need to show that our our game deserves the funding or you know or we need to show we need the revenue uh to finish the game right um we only have enough to get it to this certain point um but to get it to the next point now we need to go early access to get more money in so we can continue developing the game right do you see it going the other way like a game that has a six-year fully funded promise releasing at Four game four years and it's not getting the reception needs being cut off essentially I think that's what we're seeing now I think that's exactly I think that's exactly part of the the layoffs that you saw we see now a lot of companies are like why

are we taking this risk though yeah right so then like let's get rid of this game let's let's lay off these people and let's stick to the more sure bets like it's all about risk risk aversion you know what I mean and and so I think like this in this especially in this e economic climate you're totally that's exactly why you're seeing that right it reminds me of trying isometric yeah it gives it has gives you a try Vibe but I think it looks better than try like in terms of like and it has like a pretty interesting visual style um but yeah ah it feels very similar like the art style is almost like it's it's it's different it's almost the same but it's different and then like um there's like no physics no it's just straight up like Diablo it's a it's a very

fun um I love I love studios that diversify obviously I mean back in PlayStation 2 right you have the the same Studios that did a commi did something else you know and they were able to jump around because of its like I guess relatively back then those budgets were obviously a lot cheaper than to make now right uh but like I've always loved Japanese companies because they are so good at just changing it up right uh it wasn't about like sequels after sequels it was like I want to make this game like back then I think kajima was the only one kajima and Nintendo was the only one stuck with kind of you know having these franchises and and and having to like because it was so popular to keep doing the same thing but but even with the franchise like at

least with Kojima um even though he's doing Fran franchises he always tried to keep mix it up right I think I think uh Snake Eater and other games were were very different yeah he he did a really good job just changing from mgs1 to mgs2 mgs3 yeah yeah very different game the uh the one thing that I found interesting too was um there was this other uh I was trying to remember but no rest for the wicked was one but the there was another uh oh so I was I was flipping through Netflix right on my TV and then suddenly I saw a category for games it's like it's like very mobile like type of games but on the TV right like ah you know they're

starting to expand their master plan right click on it I didn't want to play it no no you should have clicked on it why what did it say it was coming soon I can know so I can rant about about what happens after that okay you go for it all right I didn't go past it because I don't like I don't know I was sleep you can see the master plan yes but uh but right now if you click on it it goes hey take out your phone ah no way really yeah yeah oh yeah so you download on your phone to play on your phone you don't play on the TV or you use your phone as a controller what no no not even on your phone you download it on your phone yeah you play it on your phone so was just a big poster on the TV yeah so somebody somebody I know was actually complaining about this and they were like you know this this sucks you know I I one I don't care about your games I care to watch movies don't to me about your games and then two you can't even play the games on the device right

but I but you said it it's the master plan right it's like okay we have to get people used to seeing games here right how do they feel and then and then yeah and then when the streaming comes it's it's now a seamless transition to just just boot the streaming thing on on the TV you know what I mean um so like so it's part of the plan I really like how slow yeah they're going um unlike some other people that did another streaming games platform that show her name nameless that definitely didn't go slow and then failed because they were not ready yeah um and did not have anything ready and didn't have a plan and didn't have a an idea of what the hell they were doing let's just say it's they didn't stay year long let's say the company's name started with a G but anyway but um but like like they messed up right and I think um Netflix is taking like a

completely different tact and they're going real slow with it they're very uh tactical with it I mean me and you know probably a lot people working at Netflix and it's been dead quiet for years right and uh they've been kind of just very secretive and and from what I've heard it's the small games and the big games too um they're not just working on these kind of like Monument Valley like graphical pretty isometric 2D games right they're they're they're definitely uh for good reason right trying to expand their IPs uh which they have valuable IPS you know um I'll take it I'll take something back I actually just tested it it works now on the PC on PC on PC it just goes straight into playing the game yeah I I I bet clearly it clearly labels it as beta labels it as

beta yeah and and it it straight up launches the game on your PC but on your TV it it'll tell you to take out your take out your phone I bet it's a controller uh interface issue because I imagine oh yeah how you're going to play it right uh yeah but like I feel like if they turn your phone into a controller that' be the coolest probably way to do it it uh that makes sense to me um but I think yeah the Netflix is definitely a sleeper uh console uh or a sleeper Game Giant that's about to really explode um you play game pass and stuff I have game pass too man I don't touch that thing um I have it as a write off to be honest but like actually by the way by the way the the game NX games beta yeah one two three four five six

it's like seven games or something seven eight eight nine nine nine games yeah so like I I was looking at some statistics like they really went big on uh well very smartly when GTA 6 Trail came out they had all the GTA available on their Netflix app all the old GTA 3 Vice City all those games y and unsurprisingly they were the best games on their platform I was like ah you know it's like there you go uh you know which which actually goes into something that I kind of want to talk to you about um like a lot of times when we look at um uh the the movie industry right it it kind of we're really close cousins but they also are kind of like a precursor to what's going to go on with the game industry right like the same way the tech industry we look at the tech industry they start with all the layoffs

and it's like oh games are next and sure enough uh so streaming movies uh for a long time was going up uh they were on in this race right they were in the race of creating their own IP so that they make their streaming platform more interesting more inviting subscribe here Disney plus Netflix Hulu well Hulu and Disney now uh Max you know all everybody right and now think it's slowly finally withering down like oh it's harder than we thought right only Netflix is making money out of this right so Netflix has I was uh flipping through sex in the city right so uh I'm saying this because there's this talk now and this worry and I've seen like a lot of articles about directors about how these uh streaming Giants which is the new Hollywood all right instead of spending Millions uh developing new

shows new movies they're just renting old ones for Nostalgia people are in Nostalgia now they rather rewatch The Office they rather spend those hours watching Sex in the City and now HBO a competitor is loaning their IP to Netflix for lots of money however probably cheaper than developing their own IP right which is a hit and miss a classic with an audience is uh more than happy to watch Sex in the City again uh than the Netflix trying to create something like sex and C to get that audience so with that being said we're already seeing that Trend and there's a lot of worries about this new age where we're not making anything new anymore and it's just about rewatching old [ __ ] because there is a lot of old [ __ ] like I am actually overwhelmed by how many shows

and movies on my queue right I have so many that I know that are solid that are good I haven't even s watched Fallout yet and I know I want to watch Fallout and I know it's a good I haven't watched Fallout I haven't seen Last of Us right I'm just so backed up with not just movie but even games there just so much that wants to take my time and so little time to do it right I think you explained the problem right is is that there's like a lot of stuff right to andol so I'm this is what I'm starting you probably know my next question we're starting to see that with remasters right people rather play Snake Eater remaster Resident Evil remaster we're seeing all types of remaster now Max P one and two is about to get remastered I'm playing that [ __ ] right I don't think it's I don't think it's new I I I think I but do you think

there's going to be a stop of funding new things is it slowed down since the movies have always been kind of like it's never it's never been different right I I think um sequels and all that have always been hey we could can we make a sequel can we can we do an establish IP yeah um has always been way way more favorable than building your own IP right and it was Indies that were like oh no we're going to make our own IP but then just making it for really really really cheap right and and so that kind of like the Indie Indie Renaissance happened all that right but all all the big companies all the top 10 games you know it's it's you going to look down a list it's going to be a whole lot of sequels and established IP right and very few um new IP there was like literally um what was it the the new the newu report about you know who's making the money and all that kind of stuff and playtime

of the players and all that kind of stuff and a large percentage of the Playtime is is the is the annual releases these things are these like NBA 2K like and I you know I worked on 2K and I've spoken with the people that run the business on the 2K side you know right and so like I I know the mindset there and it's like like I try to like when I worked at 2K I try to get them to make a new IP you know and it was like why would I have you work on a new IP but I got to have you working on 2K I know exactly how much money it's a sure thing yeah I know exactly how much money I'm gonna make putting you on 2K I have no idea how much money I'm gonna make putting you on something right right right it's been like this it's it's like this forever right and so um I then like like looking at the movie side of things it's funny you said Netflix is doing well like they're doing well now after they crack down on the passwords right but before they crack down passwords doing a huge doing all this new IP was

cost them a ton of money right yeah and so of course yeah now they're like okay like we have to be a little more selective with what we're going to green light and let's bring in Nostalgia to fill out uh the catalog right because like yeah like a Savage IP is going it's going to do better just just off the rip it's again it's the whole thing about risk mitigation right establish IP mitigates the risk risk right right right so like let's go in the deeper down because this topic is I feel like it's trending really hard towards that where games bigger studios are are taking have always taken less AIS right they've always favored sequels but like is there a point where since they sized down so much I mean they laid off all these people that remastering their hundreds of catalog

like let's say EA for for example right they have so many PlayStation one PlayStation 2 games where they can spend the next 10 years just updating that and it will sail like I mean they they did that with dead space please please tell please tell Capcom to do that with Power Stone please I feel like they are I mean Capcom is lead in the way of remaster they're the king of remastering yet I have not seen a remastered Power Stone because killing a Resident Evil and they're digging deeper in in you know uh in everything else eventually right you don't even know what power St is like I play Power Stone bro isometric Fourplay battles I played in arcade son I love that game it's my favorite game first of all you're you're baiting yourself out because you said four player and it was I used to play four player there's a four player game too the first one was two players the second one was four players I'm talking about the best one I just want to point I just want to point that I just want to fck that up I'm pointing out the best ones all right I

can talk about [ __ ] or the best ones all right but like I I do feel like there we're we're we're following the footsteps of Hollywood and uh and at the same time you know it'll allow I mean it's always been that way right it's it's but it's going to be more so that than ever these smaller team with finding like great success small budgets lower risk um having the patience uh the audience are more sympathetic or or get more excited right when you hear smaller teams doing visually impressive things right and it plays well right uh like you said like people just want to check it out because they heard that it was made by a small team like that is a selling point now uh uh I think because it it it probably uh carries a a carries a weight of honesty I guess

right it feels like I'm less likely to get bullshitted over right it's not like it feels like Anthem like Anthem was like I felt like the Apex of bullshitting Triple A right I felt like that it felt like the height I felt like it was the height of like that trend of big bloated marketing big bloated promises and then just falling flat on its face right uh with everything um and then since then I feel like it's just been just like fast decline of of trusting bigger Studios and um I don't know I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing like if it's a big team like do I want them to take less risk probably you think so

what do you I mean big risk means layoffs that's what it means well it means it just means better products yeah but you've been in we've been a part of those big teens man we've seen so many products get watered down so hard well no that's that's what I'm saying the vision is lost is like a lot of these I think risk conversion has gotten worse right over the years right so it's been like you know bigger teams cost more money so it has to be a more sure thing as as we do the the arms race you know what I mean the Triple A tripa arms race so yeah yeah maybe we should just have like 50 people siiz teams a bunch of them and then you see like show us the games you can make like four four 50 size people teams versus a one 200 person team you know what I mean yeah and and I think I think those four smaller teams will probably make something with us way more interesting

now will it will it sell as much will it reach as much the vast variety of people that the 200 person game would that that's that's Up For Debate right it's it's definitely changing I mean what was the last game that sold like Bonkers right I mean besides like maybe like Sony games right like you know those are the games that seem to sell in the 10 dut dut Millions you know Call of Duty yeah Call of Duty but like aside from Call of Duty right Call of Duty is kind of like the king of killing it every year right uh well the hype machine is so big but like in in terms of quality like games that people just critically Ray fans Rejoice it's like the Sony games right the Sony is God of War this is a solid game you'll love itend Nintendo Yes Nintendo everybody everybody does not want to call Nintendo triaa Studio everybody

really wants to go out of their way and say that Nintendo's not AAA studio and then they don't realize how big those teams are yeah right no those teams are huge and how much those teams make like how much money those games make right they make a lot yes I think they carried on like that era like the PlayStation 2 well I mean Nintendo's always been Nintendo right they just work smart smaller teams but they they com find the best of what we're discussing right they rely on franchises that people love right and they keep those same guys employed right and they don't make that much risk they don't make the same game right they don't they they play Within that Universe which is kind of like what you were saying yeah he risks it of course but then they always they always like go what's the new thing change it up new thing we can do they adapt the the IP to I mean it's very Japanese I mean you were talking about kajima yeah he made middle gear for a long time like 17

years right of his life but it wasn't the same game you know he really just used that as a backbone to build off of try game ideas yeah different game ideas cosmetic is different you know his approach yes there's this undertone of middle gear that's present in all his games but you know the game design is very different in each game right he tries really hard to kind of amp it up you know adjust uh it's very it's very unique how the I I think Japanese kind of make games um and in a lot of those teams I think a lot of it is because those teams stay together um which is very uh rare in Western Studios still right aside from maybe respawn and valve maybe right naughty dog like there there's always some turnover right but the the creative nucleus stayed together for a long time yeah the big guys are always there I

guess yeah there's um speaking of which right uh in terms of Legacy I know you love this um so Destiny 2 all right we have friends there at bung they're struggling man and I can confirm that things aren't great over there right but they they're coming up with a new DLC uh the final shape right which I I don't think it's very uh it can be very prophetic if you start calling things final no I think I think they might have did that on purpose but okay yeah but it's not it's not good Mo uh what do you call it Mojo Muju Mojo Mojo uh it's not good luck to to kind of Doom yourself like that like no one's talking about Destiny anymore this is their only thing I know they're working on their IP but they're going to have to Sunset this franchise somehow right they

can't just end it um I you know it's one of those big studios that did things a very uh in a certain way and uh are kind of suffering from I think the old ways of making things did you like Destiny man yeah yeah yeah like I liked I liked it I liked it enough right but um but I I mean the fact that they're still making DLC and pouring money into it um there is a player base there right it's not like the top of all of the live service games that are out there absolutely not right but um but I think they're still doing decent numbers for the for the size of Studio they are right and um it just looks so goofy to I me look at this what is this yeah what is

this it looks so bad I don't know bro I don't know it's a it's a green smog I just work here Cloud um but um I don't even work here but anyway but um it just seems so outdated yeah I mean there it's a custom engine right so you know using their and don't say that there's some good looking custom engines out there well it looks like an duct tape come on you have friends there it's a duct tape engine unfortunately tools are like impossible to use uh I don't even know I don't even know honestly I know I know first that this is what they tell me man yeah I don't even know bro um but that's how it is like and also I will say this everybody every engine you use is the engine that you hate right like you always wish you had a different engine right uh you get unreal you're you're

complain about something unreal and and wish that it wasn't trash right like like every engine you hate um and so you know it's just you just hate it in different ways you know what I mean so like I don't put much stock in that stuff right because at the end of the day it's made a very successful game that a lot of people are playing right yeah at one point in time a lot of people were playing one point in time like I just wanted you to look at that and like kind of shout out Sony to buy them right son Sony bought them yeah there's said there's more to that for sure like I threw I heard through the gra Vine people just tell me things man people tell me things there's a big Power struggle between Sony ownership and Bunchie right Bunchie wants that sweet sweet deal and I think I mentioned this with you on a round table before they just want that sweet deal where you know they they they someone foot the bill right in this case Sony and have no

accountability right that's how Bungie is right I would say noil Well they're failing hard and Sony's like uh maybe we should start making money guys they're and so I've heard that this is kind of like their last chance to do it their way essentially before Sony completely takes over yeah and and naughty dog them right um but I I kind of I'll say I'll say this right is like especially I can imagine there's a lot of this pressure also because of how the economy is currently oh yeah makes it way worse now makes it way worse because they're like yo like like the books ain't looking too nice and y'all is a big red mark here like what's up right and so I'm sure I'm sure there's a lot of that too you know well they have a fancy office man yeah oh yeah see the office nice well they took out like a Regal theater basically

made an office out of it so imagine that just just imagine your biggest 21 Regal theater and then make a make a game Studio out of it right so it's it's pretty expensive but I kind of want to you know look at that and then look at this right Warframe you know Shad out to you know we have a lot of uh we cross paths with digital extremes for in the early days of BioShock 2 and this game has been killing it man a lot of people say this is what Destiny should have been essentially right and just can't get right and they constantly update their [ __ ] man it looks great look at this it took them a long time to get and they been making lots of money right took a long it took them a long time to get it right but they got it right and yeah and they're making money look at this to me it looks what Destiny tries to be yeah yeah I never it's the same game kind of right same type of game yeah

yeah yeah but I never really I always like I I think my history with with digital streams is like so long right that I'm just like right but you've been tainted yeah but there's no denying that that Warframe has been doing really well so dude I see this game like maybe I should try it it looks good it looks updated they've been consistent with their updates uh and that's the thing I think hurts Bungie is like they can't disapp like their their way of doing DLC dude for a life service game it's like you release one thing every two years it's like what do you expect to happen you know I mean you can't you can't expect people to stick around and wait uh meanwhile Warframe is like constantly updating like every quarter you know is Warframe on a that's a custom engine too in it I think it's unreal is it unreal I think it's unreal

uh is it unreal yeah I think they updated Unreal Engine five recently I no is it yes unreal five Dev vog to uh they have Dev Dev diaries about like bringing you know updating the characters uh and they've been uh transferring to Unreal Engine 5 since 2022 see they're at the edge of Technology bro you can't keep working on like duct tape engines and and expect to be able to move fast right that's the problem you know the probably why they can't update fast no there's something to be said for knowing your engine you know you can move a lot faster than engine that you're familiar with yeah but like you know what I've heard it's like these Studios have a lot of turnover man that's the problem with like the engines said only a few people know you go in and you got to train them up it's like

what is this [ __ ] it's like this is not fun uh I mean we can get into all discussion but but yeah like I I think yeah it's it just it just so depends on what you're trying to do you know I will say this man yeah and if you have the talent we all worked and the people to sustain it and build it and maintain it yeah and yes all of that is expensive and as you talking about boss platform Dev you need the expertise you need like there's all sorts of things right but there is something to be said for like owning and knowing yeah the the entire um Tech stack and it's tailored to the game that you are making no there's definitely I won't argue with an engineer right like people I don't want people to mistake me as a Unreal Fanboy I'm not all right unreal I feel lately who you talking to rec real fat boy recently no man I I I I come on man I

complain about epic as much as I like talk about unal no no no you just you're just talking bad about ufn but you definitely an unreal Fanboy I will say this about unreal right and I get just as agitated when I hear everyone just like celebrating unreal it's like no man unreal has lately been like a hype machine you know a marketing team like most of the Futures don't work you know Nan Lumen all this [ __ ] it's not performant like I was playing with metal human and oh now we're going into like Dev which you know we never talk about that we talk about Game Dev news meta metah human is a piece of [ __ ] man like it's impressive as a starter packet but in terms of like game ready assets it's is it's a lie dude I was going into the material system and the way they do it dude every every switch everything how they make it so to import it in is this convoluted material system that would never work as shippable but like that you know

that's kind of like they're working in terms of marketing it's working they sell Sizzle uh but like lately I feel the last few years they've leaned so heavily into selling features instead of just making the engine actually work right so unreal five especially it is definitely not Prime Time ready but they pushed it and maybe that's part of you know the engine bu is hard I I don't need to preach this to you oh hell no but like I want people I I get so frustrated when I see these forums I I got I got in like a little scrimmage on on on excellently because like these these uh I don't know who it was but the wait what site is X I don't understand Twitter right there was a tweet oh Twitter some did like uh uh reposting naughty dogs like lighting uh

uh method right in Maya right oh isn't it so cool oh so interesting show showing their Tools in Maya yeah and was ripping on the tools yeah yeah I was ripping I was well I was commenting off this kid who was sharing that I was like oh isn't that amazing to learn people's pipeline from like a big Studio like Maya is piece of crap for modeling like I can't imagine you know I I'll repost a tweet I can't imagine people running a game engine through it people are in purgatory you know I worked on Maya many yeah I know you worked on Maya it's been the same that's the problem that's the problem blo uh like people yeah but you know all these like mostly Sony Studios run their engine through Maya right and it's like

the most horrific experience that people recount it's so lame I'll say that I I cannot believe people do that and I I've definitely seen it in a bunch of different situations I think I think another Studio we were talking about earlier also used Maya as part of their workflow um and like and I was just like yeah like I get it I can understand how how you're like hey we need a tool to be able to see 3D geometry and viewport and gizmos yeah like why am I going to write all of that again why did I why did I just use this thing over here oh so you say the root of all is lazy Engineers I would say that but like I'll say what ends up happening is you prototype and you get it up running and then you stick to it and then it's never the most important thing right because it works yeah right um and so like why why would we change it works because it takes n years to make that freaking game that's

why we yeah we have to make the we have to make the game I can't be changing up the the editor out from under the team while we're making the game but because they didn't invest into a proper just engine tools right it took takes these Sony Studios uh a long ass time right because you have like 18 programs up it that's that's I think the this is where I feel like for new students or newer people in the industry like it doesn't get talked enough because they see Last of Us they see what the great things naughty dog is able to kind of pump out of this CRA results yeah they see the results and they're like oh that must be the way let's follow let's preach preach preach right and I just don't I hate it I hate the fact that like you know like you talk to those developers at Sun it sucks you know it really sucks and I

I've been through this to you like you know obviously Call of Duty we have their own engine and it's horrific in terms of just going through it and yeah like once you learn like the shortcuts right and basically you you get I don't know call games like Call of Duty games like Apex Legends like 60 Herz 120 HZ on Console right like like yeah there are great things of course it does that without doing what they're doing sure right and I I like the fact that there's a lot of tools and resources right but even when I was working there with three different main Call of Duty Studios there was three different versions of that engine right it was so crazy how they couldn't even decide eventually I think they converged to the infinity War um original version of the engine right um

but I guess what I'm trying to say is like there's just not it upsets me when I see people talking about tools and you know they're being misled in a way right yeah about like yeah they make God at War but that guy uh wanted to kill himself every time he wanted to import something it's like uh and you know I I don't know what the solution is I I feel like I think it's old trade-offs you know like you just have to make you're making tradeoffs every day every decision is a tradeoff right and well here I'll give you like a a direct example you g to go to naughty dog and tell them their engine sucks I'll tell them right right now dude and you know what they're going to do they're look at you and be like oh yeah and then wipe the tears from their eyes with the $100 bills and not get two shits about what you're saying yeah yeah I'll be like yeah you know your contract ends next month so a new kid's going to enjoy enjoy your badge while you're

still there right we we know every there's a turnover every November right it's no big secet but I I'll give you a direct example right like uh you know fortunately you know we've been able to uh my company worked with blizzard you know we were able to kind of look at their tools and like um even friends that work there right they were explaining kind of like their process of working on something like OverWatch 2 right and a lot of like why they're stuck with the pipelines and tools because the people who wrote it left right there you know over 10 year period you know there's turnover or people retire or they move on different projects and they're so afraid of breaking anything that they don't want to try anything new right so I'm I'm sitting there watching their process in Photoshop is like all right this is how we texture this is what you do we put

things in folders and then you are able to do this it's like you're explaining me substance you guys basically tried right to make substance painter out of Photoshop they have a program for this uh that makes this way better right that that also cost a whole lot of money but anyway not that much more if you consider the amount of time right right uh that it takes to do this same thing in their process versus my process right but like it was one of those things like it's a house of cards essentially right we don't want to mess with any of these things because it might suddenly you know OverWatch 2 won't be successful like I said there there's that and it's yeah and it's also like like hey do we spend that time doing this or do we spend the time doing that and like and this might have more perceived value you know what I mean um because sometimes

sometimes people um value the shortterm gains for over the longterm gains right and like I always always think like doing large technological projects in a game Studio setting where there's always the pressure of shipping um has always been like something that I didn't like right because there's always like no no no we have we have to we have to ship or we have to protect this thing um we don't have time how long is it going to take you oh I need six months and three Engineers to go and rewrite this pipeline more times I'm going to get told no straight up you know I could present data all day right but like the effort might not be seen as worth the benefit yeah and it's unfortunate because I feel like obviously you know if we're stuck with one engine there are still great game design ideas m that can come out of it however you know you coming from your background know that some games can tend

to look the same feel the same because of the strengths of that engine of course that team can expand from that and make it as custom as they can yeah but they're restricted right to whatever that engine is known for so like you know I think more than ever we're starting to really see I mean we talked about a couple round taes ago where proprietary engine are becoming less and less right and uh the the time spent on those propri engin to update it to be competitive is considerably less probably right um budget uh is kind of being uh reused in other resources where they feel it's more bang for the buck so are we reaching are going to reach a point where all the games aside from AI uh dictating what it'll be is going

to feel and look the same because it's all being made with the same tools that's a concern I think that is a concern like for some people and they're like that's why we need custom engines because it allowed for different looks and different games to be made and all this kind of stuff and I think you can make different things in these generic engines but I think one of the big things is like people want to buy a generic engine and they're like you know what I'm going to buy a generic engine I don't need a graphics programmer anymore do I right and like and I'm mortified when I hear that because because they they could never be more wrong they absolutely you need a graphics programmer still and you need an engine programmer still to understand the engine that you've just bought right and to and to be able to modify it and and also add your own special stuff to it right um so so yes I think that is like that is a concern for for a lot of people is like if we go with only two engines or three you know like what's

going to happen and then and then also and then there's also the aspect of like the engines that we're going with are all like commercial engines with um ulas and and terms of service that they can change at any moment they want right I I will not name a company that has done things like this right and outrage people right and and so people are now looking at like what's up with all these open source Alternatives right that that are May right now are not really competitive but maybe could be over time right do you really think Gau is gonna be no a compe no so not that one no like I maybe could be for certain types of games right I think for like for smaller Indie titles like that um that are only one platform and all this kind of stuff like maybe it makes sense you know what I mean like so

so some small games have already converted over to good and they were like yeah that took us like a day right and and here we are right and I'm like sweet for larger games is just not a thing no just it's just not a thing you know um but maybe the next game they make they think about that right but I think also in all those cases they're also going to have to invest more into engine development yeah which is exactly why they are using an off-the-shelf engine the first place they don't want to invest more in engine development and engine programmers and Graphics programmers are hard to hire hard to find hard to you know keep expensive right and so it's so like what are you gonna do right um so I think a lot of games are are going to be you know stuck with unity un unreal but I do think good do and stride and flex and Bevy and like

there's a whole lot of them right that that like depending on the size and scale of your game it makes perfect sense yeah I mean I hope I'm worried man I'm really worried about game development like I feel like it's becoming more restrictive and like it's great to hear like these Studio these kind of Solo devs or smaller teams getting like it's time to shine and it feels like all this Avenue is becoming uh appealing right it seems like there's a chance uh if you're a small team you have the patience to make something great that it has a chance to really shine uh because the Market's kind of aching for it right but at the same time uh you know you don't find stability doing that right you you're taking a lot of risk you're doing it on the side mostly right um maybe you'll find a small publisher but even then that road

to finding a publisher is a challenging one um and uh it's not as accessible as I think as everyone thinks it is and so like in the meantime right like the the the security has always been the stable big jobs it's always going to be there but I'm starting to feel like it's not going to be there right without that how can you make your little thing you know what I mean like you need time to Foster in a big environment learn the ropes and then yeah test things at home right uh I can't imagine there can't be that many students coming out and just jumping right into I mean you'd be amazed I yeah You' be amazed I see a lot of like like some young people doing like mods and stuff and then that's how they started and they made a game and yeah you know and no formal training

whatsoever like I do agree with you though that I think it's it's beneficial to learn the ropes from a big Studio first but also I've seen a big Studio completely beat the will of making games out of people too you you go to the big studio and are you talking about are they in this room right you refering to yeah you go to big Studio you're like ah I'm done I don't do this no more it burns you out for sure I've seen that I've seen that so much right so um so like I think it's a mix mix of both like you don't necessar need to go to big Studio to learn ropes I think a lot of the information about how to make video games is but the money's good though that's what I mean like it just just to have that benefit having that salary well it's good enough to kind of just all right I can do the thing at home right I can kind of get an apartment you know I mean I mean for I I feel for like for like non-engineers yeah sure right but like

when it comes when it comes to engineering like you do video games because not because like oh oh this is like a steady job and I'm gonna make money doing this you do it because you absolutely love it because there's other jobs that pay way better pay way better have way less hours and you could make your video game on the side and a bun more comfortable environment right sure than actually working at a big studio so well we don't have that choice R you make it sound like we can go to Tesla any day that we want yeah I mean like for artists I guess we're starting to see that you know I I have a lot of friends at Apple sure yeah it is it is opening up in terms of options AI the era of AI has opened the door for a lot of people you know the era of AI I I I feel like it's more for engineers sort of like I don't feel like a lot of artists are having those type of jobs in those fields I think at least part of it is

like the whole um if you want to train AI yeah and especially it's something like autonomous cars for instance right there are a bunch of artists that are making realistic environments for training those for training for training those things right because you can't possibly get enough data by driving on railroads sure right so so so there's that right for sure digital Twins and all that nonsense and training AI you know I open the door for some sort of like techical artists and and the straight up traditional modelers and textures and stuff so the window is limiting in my opinion I mean there there's not a ton of jobs out there but they they exist yeah yeah I I don't want to open up another topic but I do find it like very hard like trying to uh guide my my son right I like all right it's 5 10 years like what what can he do it's we're such

a in a in a changing environment I I told him was like it's either space or AI dude what do you want it's like yeah you guys will be uh your generation will be space fairing it sounds like I you know might be cool to be an astronaut again or work something you know either one of those either one of those choices uh sound like getting a degree is still going to matter even though it's going to cost a ton of money but dude like hey man I'll end it I'll end it like this right you sound like a smart guy all right every day I turn on the news and universties universities are sounding less and less appealing to me I like what are you guys paying for you know you guys aren even class anymore it's just out there protesting all day I mean that's not a new that's protest at universities oh no that sounds so new to me like yeah but like I

feel like they're not you know I hear these kids talking and it's like what are you learning and like it's it's the same equivalent as this right oh no the kids the kids are are like are like I don't know if you I don't know if you can tell right I'm I'm a public school kid right but we're in an area where uh you know my son plays basketball Club basketball right all the parents all the parents right have their kids in private school and they're talking about high school already and my kids in seventh grade and it's like oh what high school are you going to and they're naming all these private school and these these fees are like 35 Grand a year dude I was like for what geometry what are you doing over there but like I look at this right I'm looking at them comparing and they're like oh yeah my kid's in private school who does this and does that we pay this much right and I'm looking it's like my my kid is smarter than yours and he's

way more athletic it's like you're not convincing me you know so yeah I I just don't see the value of school as much as I used to right I feel like with the internet with everything with AI with basically School using AI to tutor right on any subject now I like what what what is aside from maybe the social aspect but even then I feel like they're just protesting all day right like I just don't know that is part of social interactions yeah but all that is part of I'm cool here's the thing man I'm cool with people protesting but take off the mask man like be accountable you know what I mean you can't be protesting Beyond a math I can do that all day it's like I'll be right back Ray I really believe in this but you'll never find me on the internet right it's like all right man you don't

really trust but I I don't know I'm like I'm having a hard time it's really true as as we get older we become our parents We are Becoming our parents but I I am having a hard time and I know your Mentor students right I'm just like I'm having it's like the next five years is so foggy to me where I don't really know how to guide younger children I think the only I guess we can end it on this the only guidance I give kids these days is is do the work just be hard worker um like yeah in the age of AI and everything's online and information's at your fingertips there's no excuse to be dumb dumb yeah right and and so like you you gota like you gotta like drive for what you want and and always ask for what you want and work for what you want like always and I don't think or anything else will change it right like that's what it's going to be you know and build

connections to people and it's CU like that's that's what that's what those parents are paying for at those private schools is is the connections and the alumni networks right they're not necessarily paying for the kid to be super smart right yeah for networking yeah uh my kid will still be better I am I am determined all right end it with this right uh speaking of dumb in AI um I just have to kind of mention this uh this thing oh jeez these pager oh man gadgets uh and this guy's the worst guy he's you know I'm Asian but bro this is the wrong guy to sell anything right as soon as I saw I'm not even touching that one you're not even so what's up with this thing is just a bunch of tech Bros just trying to Pawn

off new tech well I would say the the one before this that Maris that Maris reviewed uh from Humane like I think it's obvious it's obviously like would it be cool if we made a tri like a like a Star Trek uh badge you know a communicator device or something like that would it' be cool right and it you know and the Texas is not ready yet for that right I I have no idea how rabbit is doing other than I saw a video somebody posted of it translating Spanish and it was it was horrendous right so like just a stupid yeah it was like it was doing like real bad Spanish and then it was like then when it got to numbers it didn't even bother doing the numbers in Spanish at all it just did them in regular English yeah right so like so like yeah like um I don't even know much about the rabbit thing but yeah I think I think everybody wants a really good it's n hype thing no no no

no like I I think and I think in maris's review if you actually watch all of maris's review he says he's like yeah maybe in in five 10 years when the technology becomes way better this is something that makes sense you know what I mean and it is clear that the Humane people are also that they are straight up taking taking a page out of even though it's like a useless it's a useless device and all that kind of stuff whatever right but they're taking they're definitely taking a page out of apples Playbook right like 100% right so like they're trying something they have not hit the mark right but in 5 10 years where will it be and I think that's the point of making that's the point of making that's the point of making stuff right is like where will it be in the future it doesn't necessary need to hit it right now um although they were selling it for a grip of money um

because of course it cost money to make these things right you know dude it's not gonna it's not gonna even survive to next year what are we talking about 10 years from now what you talking no no no I think this product is dead right but like the idea of it what about the yeah the next one it's just so dumb man how many Gadget do you want us to have do you watch do you watch Star Trek man do you watch Star Trek have you watched Star Trek yes St check was cool yeah I yeah yeah like and like you want that at some point you're going to want you going to want we have something better it's a SmartPhone dude it's like it's a SmartPhone smartphone's better today right will it be better when AI gets better I'm not so sure yeah it's it's got to be a head display man I'm sorry man like the glasses just need to get smaller the VR AR I like the idea I like the idea of your hand being like a little projector like it's actually kind of cool you know I me it's actually kind of cool um like it's it's it's flop

like AR can do that you know you wear like a little Google Glass thing and you can project in anything you know uh you don't need like a literal projector but you don't you don't look like a glass hole and now you're just you just look like a crazy person your head out in front of you but this lady doesn't look like an [ __ ] to you right no when when was the last time you saw anyone with a name tag and you're like hey that seems like a cool person it's like name tags are like the worst it's actually a very well-made device it's Hardware it job impressive but like there's a reason why people moved away from the pager like I just feel like like this this cloud of like is basically trying to pull something over people's eyes like regurgitating technology you're not innovating on anything right you're just looking at oh what we used 30 years ago pet is all right like imagine you know a pag you're updated it's like you're an idiot right stop right the only last the only last

time that worked was because people were still wearing watches right a smart watch came out from Apple and they're like hey we got to update the [ __ ] right people stop wearing watches stop there a lot of Smartwatch haters man a lot no but but but I would say like there was a good period that people just stop wearing watches right they have their phone nobody wear watches for a long time and then Apple made it cool again right because it was useful it was a useful utility and a watch is useful you know something on your wrist that you could just look at versus popping out a phone right there's a function to it that made sense pagers are useless right nobody's saying that that device as a use today no one like well at least okay I'm not saying that at least I'm saying this if that device delivered everything that it promised to deliver I still I still think it's dumb right because it's it's a iPhone app essentially right yeah there's no reason

why you know you wanted a quarter of your phone on on your breast pocket like it's not you know it's going to break it's gonna fall off you look dumb wearing it I don't think you look dumb wearing it I think like no yeah no ST is wearing a vision Vision OS right like you know what I mean like well vision is failing because it looks dumb like I I still have hopes that you know the technology will get better and eventually it'll be like sunglasses yeah uh I mean like meta is doing with rayb band sort of but like even then it's not you know it just takes pictures it just takes pictures it doesn't do anything right but like I you know this that you know imagine if that is fully realized right are you really going to wear a pocket protector you know what I mean no right it's like that trumps this correct

right so that's not very like I can just tell you're not a St Tre fan I can just tell you're just not a Star Trek fan that's all these guys aren't either because this sucks you're telling me that's all you're telling me is that you're not a Star Trek fan this sucks in Star in Star Trek they had like the big p uh what was it no but they but later on they were just able to do the full communication with just the thing and it be like yo Beam us up BL and then beamed up or like so and so talk to so and so right like you know just tached the thing and it did all the things right VR dude beat me up that's it Star Trek didn't have smartphones man they didn't see everything anyways it's funny like to me it's like nft all over again with these devices like both of them you know coming out at the same time I was I wouldn't say nft I would say it is AI anything right right now yeah it's the next nft that's what I mean that's what I

mean try to some of these startups are gonna fail and some these two and some of them are gonna sustain right and some of them might influence the Next Generation who knows anyways all right I had to bring that up because it was the dumbest thing I saw the last month and there was two of them they're very expensive they're not cheap they're very expensive yeah it's an expensive piece of crap I uh hope I don't see it [Laughter] anywhere yeah I know some pre-ordered a rabbit so I can't wait to check it out I will say this right like the forceful marketing of the Vision Pro got so silly at GDC like people were walking around you didn't see this there was I there was like one or two every day that people were wearing it around on the streets and it was clearly you know Apple paying for marketing yeah there was two of them just walking around in the

streets every day I see that I did not see that at all oh I saw him like I I have a a radar for stupidity as soon as I it must be going off all the time yeah yeah I'm real stupid people all the time how did you know but uh yeah it's it's just me I miss Steve Jobs dude I mean one was the last uh you know who's making cool [ __ ] anymore not really anyone yeah anyway I agree I agree with that there's there's very very little cool stuff out there well that's the round table news episode thanks Ray for dropping by uh maybe next time we see you get two more jobs because you like collecting jobs I guess this year just taking everyone's job uh see you guys all next time see y [Music]

[Music]