The Freelancing Life with Ewan Croft | Game Dev Unchained Episode 202

I you what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Gidon of unchanged number one podcast and game development and the lifestyle of thereof please welcome our special guest this week Ewan crossed you and if you don't wanna can you introduce yourself to our audience viewing Kroft I'm a game developer I am currently freelance I do effects dynamic simulations and things like that yeah yeah I mean I'm in Marin County I started out an art outsourcing moved to a big studio publisher for about a decade and went freelance about two years ago how's it going so far for you and it started a little scary at first you know I thought it was gonna be just a walk in the park but it was like crickets for the first couple weeks but um it started picking up and I started getting some good clients and and now

it's now it's going pretty well what was if you mind me asking what was your first I guess course correction when you basically had crickets and you're like well this isn't gonna work so what did you do the generate business first thing is I kind of want to take a little time um so I actually strangely enough became a scuba instructor of all things and it was kind of building the grinder than that that actually ended up opening some really interesting doors a lot of travel and things like that but what happened was I got a call from about people ILM and as an effect artist that's definitely a call you can be very happy to get so I got a gig over there um did a did a few movies over there and that definitely helped a help that's like you have on your reel and some you know some big shots from ILM definitely doesn't hurt unless so the trick is get Island to give you work and then you're in well actually I didn't even they didn't give me work I had a very good friend who'd been there for a long time I knew I was freelance you never said a

word to me but a very very dear friend Lee a great great guy he'd been there for 13 years that's a big big work there mmm you made a phone call that's saying word to me and that's really what started it so uh I'll be forever grateful to that to that to that friend you know it was but to be honest I think the two are converging like at a really rapid pace so when a last few years at 2k we were starting to use movie tools you know specifically Houdini to do a lot of our dynamics and simulation work in spectral event stuff so working on those pipelines um you know it kind of got me familiar with some of the movie stuff and I'd also started doing a lot of heavy training because I really felt that you know games were starting to approach movie quality or at least the expectation is there and so I sort of you know done a fair amount of self self study but yeah getting there it's a very different culture and you know I mean just things is as low level is going from Windows to

Linux took a few days to get my head around but they do a very good job of onboarding you and yeah it was it was a lot of fun but yeah it was it is a bit different but I be honest with you I think it's harder going from film to games the games to film you know everything to film you don't have to worry about performance and things like that and that's just something at game development we live in so it wasn't that bad and I had already kind of front-loaded it a little bit so so what about you're saying going from games the film you find is the easier of the two I guess what are the kids I think as someone making that transition the visual fidelity expectations and film are obviously a lot higher so and also like the numbers were just crazy an effects artists I'm thrown around particles and unreal right he's throwing around you know 500 and now growing over there it's like 20 million obviously it

scales up my words of magnitude but you know the the the the core of it is pretty similar I mean you know a good film effect has a lot of same qualities a good game effect so you know anticipation and punch and and you know weight and things like that the principles the similar principles apply and I know a lot of great film people have done transition to games and they're doing great game work but I think it is a shock to the system going from you know having a huge render farm to do stuff and all the sudden trying to get your stuff to run on a you know an xbox yeah waking and I've seen some people on some film folks you know kind of struggle with that transition but but as that's for that reason I think it's a little bit easier to go for games to foam Goodman well like but obviously when you were transitioning there's like a whole conversation with family like looking at the results and and AH and then preparing basically a lifestyle that can

change and fluctuate right so that's probably I would say the hardest conversation with the wife and the children's like eight things are not gonna be as good for a little a little while right yeah was that just cushioning the fall it shows wisely my wife is an absolute badass you know beautiful smart funny work and and she I came home and I've been at 2k for almost ten years that's a long time and I kind of said you know I was like I really I I want to life less ordinary um you know I've been doing something am I doing this am I staying here because I'm comfortable am I staying here because I'm scared to try to venture out you know if that doesn't scream midlife crisis I don't know what does but she was an absolute was amazing she's like dude you're gonna landing her feet and also there was some practical matters she's a you know very accomplished has a very accomplished career so she was able to you know use her insurance for the family and things like that so it did make things a little bit easier but she was totally a hundred

percent you know then I come home like I'm gonna start scuba diving teaching scuba diving and traveling mm-hmm and you throw you know supportive of that too and so I guess I chose well and it made that transition a little easier mm-hmm that's amazing like having a pretty cool well the scuba diving ously I don't I never knew that you had skill sit in the back and do you feel like that was a necessary thing to kind of be able to Rissa verse to have multiple things to juggle with two just in case you know as a side thing or not so anybody who's a dive instructor out there knows that it's not gonna make you any money it's really a labor of love and it also was something physical very different we sit for on computers what 10 12 hours a day yeah so it's it was a nice balance to this computer lifestyle I love art my primary vocation is doing art but it really wasn't a matter of hedging bets

financially it was more of kind of again pursuing a life less ordinary and really you know all I do now is I teach clients like very specialized clients usually at their homes but the travel is a big deal it I'm starting to lead trips so it was you know Bonaire in February it'll be Fiji October Yucatan February Turks and Caicos in June so it kind of opened its door to this life less ordinary again you know we were I was working a big studio on you know maybe wet one vacation here working on holidays a lot of the time so it was really taken advantage of the freedom you get from freelancing but that again with a transition when I started getting you know a lot of work I had a really hard time turning it off and it was just pendulum swung the exact other way before I mean you know working at a studio and under a lot of stress and now I didn't know how to turn it off so on their home applying a lot of stress to myself and doing it you know it's working way too much not getting out from behind the machine and so the scuba diving I started a business called soul seeker and that just is a nice counter

corner of balance to airship which is my effects and simulation free landscape but it really wasn't a matter of hedging bets in terms of like supporting a family it's not gonna do much for you there if you compare the two though right because it seems like you had two businesses which were hey this is something that I'm gonna offer here's how I'd fire my customers then I go out and do the thing you had like a rinse and repeat kind of business yeah okay would that the plan in going freelancer did you just find that that ended up being what was most effective totally random and I just I had been freelance before and I had a mentor way back in the day who kind of taught me how to be freelance amazing dude a very very good friend taught me a ton and you tell me the basics like time track tank billing how to talk to clients about money on how to talk to clients about you know work how to get feedback so you know I sort of had some experience freelancing and that's why it wasn't quite as daunting

but uh it it was you know it was quite a transition yeah I'm for the scuba diving is way different it was just like I just like this you know I can you know it it's physical its healthy it's I love being in the ocean and so before I was in an office all the time working and then on the weekends I was exhausted and didn't want to do anything and now I'm like working freelance in front of the computer quite a bit but then the weekends I'm in Monterey or in Tahoe we just got back from Tahoe this weekend my level just got certified he's a little badass but but I also started shooting video and applying the same visual creativity we use in game development and to shooting travel videos and drone footage and underwater and cut little adventure videos and so now I'm starting to document the trips and make a little adventure trip videos for the trips so it's a totally different world but when I get burned out on effects I can kind of shift gear to go over to that when I start getting tired of that and tired me a sandy and salty I can you know come back to my comfy studio and and do some some computer graphic well then the next

big question for me because I know a lot of people in the audience probably have the same fear which is when you go freelance how you get paid and your taxes and everything is a completely different ballgame then when the government was like essentially taking their cut before you get pace you had less to worry about now if I go I need to make sure I save almost fifty percent of everything I'm making because I have no idea what the tax is gonna mean you walk you through I guess absolutely that's a really really key point so anybody who's gone freelance and luckily I do this really in my career but if you've gone freelance you probably made the mistake your 1099 you get a big check and you think of pay the taxes later and you know you might have gotten burned I never got burnt super bad but I took that very really lesson from 20 years ago so hard and I've put away 40% of every dime I get 1099 is very different than w-2 so you have to be careful that I know where's um yeah so definitely that's a big part of it um in

terms of getting paid like one thing I learned early on is just talk directly with clients be very honest about billing I think a lot of new freelancers are really scared to talk about money yeah or they try to you know justify the rates and I think the signal that sends is they're not confident they're gonna work or obviously I have to have the work to back it up but I found that if you just really direct the clients um you know that that helps a lot and that you develop a trust pretty quickly I'm also know if I get client this really difficult right they're giving you money for work mm-hmm they're laggy on for that deal you know it's it it makes it a lot less fun so luckily the clients I have now are really really good and also maybe I will change and I sent an invoice out and I get like a wire transfer in 45 minutes used to be like a 30 day met I was gonna say I remember net 30 net 60 90 and even then you're sending letters like hey guys for real I need that money exactly and that was you know that's kind of a drag so I you know that's I

always try to really actually new clients like hey you know this is quid pro quo and I'm gonna be johnny-on-the-spot for you but you know you got to be johnny-on-the-spot for me too and I do not want to you know this is not a collections agency so I stopped work as soon as an invoice is late I give a fifteen-day net mm-hmm all the clients I work with now are like it's crazy they just within the hour so Wow feels like you must do excellent work it's just got a lot easier I mean cellie transfers and things like that just make it a lot easier and also I think the clients today I mean it's not like they don't have are they made but it's not like there's some comptroller reading through paper invoices and cutting checks on a dot matrix printer anymore I mean it's things are definitely sped up so it makes it a little bit easier I think and that makes sense it's a different ballgame today it is it is I mean think about it you we meet say you know we videoconference for just about

everything it's just all this stuff it makes it a lot easier to be a freelance artist now well speaking of I'd like to jump in is this might be a great transition point you is is there like one single piece of software that has really made your freelance life like I don't know you can say QuickBooks or whatever but is there like a I don't know like a schedule task or a time Tasker or any little tools that you could recommend to the audience system right now that has significantly helped you manage your company as a freelancer you know actually to be honest with you I'm not like I'm I used time tracking software and I didn't really you know because I'm we I think one of the things that I'm doing are that jumping around a lot and working on a lot of different things so trying time track like wasn't you know what making widgets so I use a TurboTax and that's worked actually really well they have kind of a small business option and that helps out a lot with taxes so we were talking about 1099 in the tax burden kinda that you take on by going

freelance well there's also benefits like I deduct my office I deduct my Xbox I did echo my game that day so there's an upside quad as well well I thought TurboTax on they remember all my stuff from last year and repopulate everything on especially makes it easier they walk me through it wizards pretty good about asking me about deductions and trying to get me the most but not really internal it was like office management I don't have a huge number of clients you know typically have a you know 20 hour week contract or a 40 hour week contract something like that so it's not like I'm managing 30 different vendors or any third class or anything like that okay fair enough so when was the the point where you where the fear subsided right obviously there's a there's a point of before you jump in and while you're in it I with a lot of people that we have on there's if it feels like there's a there's a moment at least where you feel hey this is just a different way of

thinking more so than then it being in a dangerous path right right well again I think I was really lucky I mean my wife's a badass and you know we we were pretty smart I was in the you know the dot-com thing back in the day so we weren't really you know it wasn't super super risky we would risking a very you know pretty cushy lifestyle but that I found and I think we think it is earlier in life mm-hmm but uh I think the fear subsided well after a little bit mm-hmm I was it I mean it was like from there I had you know the work really difficult fun work after that I'll put it that way mmm you know I and there you guys both been around for a long time you build relationships and people develop trust and that obviously didn't hurt either

you know when I went Felix when I was young I didn't have that and so I'm like guys I really a good work ethic global um but uh you know now it's like people work with you for eight years they know what you're about and so I found that you know available and and freelance they can add you to the team it's fairly a little wrist I can tell you to take a hike they don't like you the contracts are typically three months six months something like that so I'm the fear subsided after I put that new reel up and the phone started ringing mm-hmm so it sounds like everything worked out right so there's never gonna be there's always that possibility at any point which probably helps with the fact that you can always go back if you really want to to basically that life right so that bet aside from the supporting wife in her career and all that stuff there's really once you really put all the cards on the table there's no way that you're gonna feel slighted at any point because you

can always have that as a back-up plan right so what is your advice to anyone that is at that point when you were at 2k right when you're thinking about doing things what what advice would you give them now knowing won't you know now because you you were at that one point obviously there and maybe talking to a few friends about this but what was the one thing that they missed or really or actually said that really rang true for you purpose of going freelance from the more stable and I set up mm-hmm it's you life is just this journey of learning and yeah this journey of becoming humble only saying I figured out on you know the lesson was if you're not passionate and love this especially on these projects for now three and four years long um you know you need to you can move you need to make that choice um

you know and and to be totally honest I think we're all human I mean I was sticking around cuz I again you know was I scared to leave was I scared to try to do something different and I would you know what I afraid I wouldn't be able to hack it out here are really valid questions um advice I'd give is obviously be practical you you need that body work and it's very helpful if you can set you know you can call upon and say hey if you guys have if you need a little help I'm definitely available to help you out err but uh would say is freelancing like it sound like you know it's just oh my god life is perfect and I'm going scuba diving and blah blah blah the fact the matter is you know there's always two sides to every coin um I you know the downside of freelance saying is it's very isolated you know you've been calling people and stuff but like when I first started before I started figured out I mean I was like and I just work all the time I was by myself all the

time I'm I'm gonna come down here my underwear and he's just like it was it was kinda crazy for a while you know it took time to figure it out so you know definitely if you decide to go freelance make sure you keep those connections I now got some lunch couple times a week with friends many from 2k still I really make a point to try to have a normal day like get up you know take a shower like you know and then I could work in my home office obviously but that was another thing definitely be aware that when you do a freelancer is the potential to be very isolated and I even today like I make at some point once I get this bug out of my system go back to studio life I miss the collaboration I miss the camaraderie I missed that esprit de corps feeling like you're part of an elite team mm-hmm so you know there's really it's a double-edged sword but right now I'm a bit I'm here I'm like with my kid a lot I'm able to spend a lot of time with them we travel a lot mm-hmm a lot of great adventure stuff I wouldn't be able to do if I had a normal w2 Joe you do I

would say um ah you once you walk through a door other doors present themselves and you know those doors before you walk through it so you have to cross that breach to actually see the opportunities that are in front of you but without fail like if you were if you're passionate about what you do you will be good at it if you're you know if you have a work ethic and you work hard and you love this stuff you will work hard at it you know there is work out there you'll do fine but I also I don't want to say that cavalierly because I I would hate that I go out there and I'll send somebody's out there and they give up a good job and they end up in a tough tough spot but everybody has to do that calculus for themselves I felt the risk was worth it I felt that it was time I had been at UK for almost 10 years so yeah I don't know it's a really hard call I think everybody is gonna have their own challenges they're gonna have to overcome if they decide to go independent but again I think the the

most important point is that you won't see the opportunities out there in front of you until you make that step so it's a little risky but I was actually pleasantly surprised by the way the world opened up as soon as I walked through that door mmm this might be a little too personal so you don't have to say an exact amount but did you prepare yourself with like a nest egg to kind of lean on when you went freelance or was it like a turkey like it it's tomorrow you know and then I'm doing this um you know financially speaking again you know I worked hard for a long time and I've done a lot of different things so we you know and I learned pretty quickly that it was a lot better to not have any debt than it was to have a super fancy car okay so we she's very pretty practical and you know you'd rather have you know a trip for the family than a piece of jewelry kind of thing so we were fairly fortunate and the way we had conducted ourselves that it didn't it wasn't super crazy like we weren't

gonna be out on a steer um but to be honest with you when I did split it was a very quick it wasn't like I cheated hard for two years it was like I'm not you know do I love this next project we're talking about mm maybe not so much you know it's time and again then there's other questions about like you know am I staying here because I'm comfortable which is if you're asking yourself that question then it's time to move on yeah and speaking of challenges you know working in a home office presents things like you said that you didn't see before I doors that you didn't walk through family seeing you always there kids seeing that you're always available but the doors closed remember I'm working and it's like really dad come on let's hang out so I what's kind of the boundaries were you did you have to set to get everyone used to you being at home again which is a whole different feeling dude that is a really really funny point that you bring up because that actually was really tricky and I found myself

like getting a little snippy at times you know like guys I'm working I'm working this is like a normal job is not me goofing around you know and so I do actually close the door but I I tried to if my kid he's and my wife but my you know my kids he's going into middle school next year he's it's just really good for me to be there you know when he goes to school morning and when he comes home the afternoon does give me a hard time for working a lot you're they're always in your office you know but I was trying to explain him like yeah but I was gone at 6 a.m. till 7 p.m. every day he's not sure it's you know something you can really be bummed about um but there's it you know upsides to that to like you know we have a nice garden and we play all kinds of vegetables and you know it's my wife and I'll go make a fresh but pray this out tomatoes out of the garden and base lie the garden and then he dies I die on the Sun and then that means go back to work you know it's kind of cool so there's upsides to it as well but you're definitely right I definitely had to set those boundaries and I think I kind of got some crazy look so first like whoa dude what's your problem

you know it was something I did have to kind of communicate clearly that hey this is my jaw and I have to you you know if if I'm not getting work done and I'm not gonna have this job very long so but they they said you're pretty pretty well hmm that's I know there's something that obviously you both had to deal with is we've had our moments you know just doing the podcast at Brandon's house and his sons wanted to help out so speak so yeah I don't know I was just joking that you would like install a hot light like the lights red you know don't come in like that again you know my kids at school during the summer he's it canopy's that wicked little tennis player to please you know they're not around I do have a lot of time here so oh so there's not a lot of distractions but at three o'clock things get a little haywire and I just kind of have to communicate hey guys I'll be out at 6:00 so I do kind of bring back this point because we we slightly touched on it

earlier where you're saying you know it is a little lonely or you might want to feel like you want to be a part of the elite team again at some point but right now you're killed or freelance like I guess what do you do to fulfill yourself with your social needs while doing the freelancing because like eight hours of solitary confinement so to speak every single day five days a week regardless of you having the luxury to do it and that's how you work I would imagine there's some human connection element that you feel like on a day-to-day basis you're not getting during that time so I guess what strategies are how do you cope you bring up Larry because again like in the beginning when I started getting a lot of work and I didn't know how to say no I kind a lot on mine a little bit like like I always put on a curse rolling it back when I first west and doing that day after day after day and my wife's like dude I thought the idea was more violence life not a crazy or more isolated life gone so I lunch at least once or twice a week and just go out and hang out friends yeah fortunately to the scuba diving and

teaching scuba diving quits me in a fun environment with really nice people and we're all there for the movies in and that's very social teaching something like that you know again you build that friendship you build that trust and I'm still friends with a lot of people who I've taught and perhaps with us and so please help but again you kind of have to set a schedule I make a point every Friday I go out to lunch with friends and you know I try to do stuff on the weekend and really make a point diving also you know if you have an alternate I'm sort of passion to be really a godsend again its social its physical it's the complete counterpoint say in an isolation in front of a computer in a dark room so that so I guess the advice would be you know number one you know really set a schedule and try to have that social calendar going because that really helps keep that human connection and the other part was you know I don't I mean Michael

Croatian what the dialling is pretty specialized but if you have another passion it's a really good time to pursue it because if things go quiet I know exactly what I'm going to do I'm just gonna ramp up the teaching and ramp up the travel and oh because I think you could kind of help mitigate that but I don't think is just it I think it's being part of that something bigger you like proud of being it you know to be I was really proud of Lucas no more you know I was only there for a couple of months six months but and I was an independent contractor but still um I'm airship now and nobody knows what that isn't nobody cares so I think point I may want to go back to that studio life right keeping those human connections are really important yeah so before you went off to do freelancing did you ever consider a partnership starting with it's something with somebody to kind of help ease the the danger and the loneliness and all that

was that a thought in your critical process the interesting question man so when I was younger I did something I was freelance a back in the day so I'm gonna date myself but I was like working on cd-rom games using soft and maje on an old SGI right solve the muds I'm not even exercise yet a 3.8 ray this is way back in the day I mauled ass bastard but the truth of the matter was was I started in it was going really really well and I was very ninja and I really is just a really really word um I just scale it up mmm it didn't work at all so I really didn't consider starting with partners I found that I work best especially you know again pursuing that idea of a life less ordinary life you want to live and now if I take on a partner now am i back to

you know you can travel two weeks a year mmm I split it three if things are quiet and I expect that partner to stick around I'm sorry didn't and I find that you know heirship again I may end up going back to a studio at some point I just found that the the nimbleness that I got from being solo mm-hmm yeah because it's one of those questions that especially be in Silicon Valley right when it comes to capital investment they're always looking for partnership that's like one of the key features because of obviously being able to bounce ideas and being able to follow through and all that stuff it's just easier with two than one right so you know I I totally hear you and I sort of framed myself up a little differently I'm like basically an effects artist for rent you just hired me a partyer teeny I'm remote in a

studio you're hiring a human mm-hmm so all the work that I show is all mine and it keeps it pretty clean you simple the other component of that was my took on those partners like they're really good human beings and they were good people I would never want to you know say anything bad but it was all my clients I was doing elantra of the work and I was sort of subsidizing these other folks and again maybe I didn't choose the partners correctly right you know there are a lot of questions that come into that but personal experience really of things and I just found that the totally the sole marina solo mercenary guy the ninja I can just work with on projects that I want to I don't have to worry about anybody else I don't have to worry about you know how we split the money and I have to worry about any of that it's just like sink or swim by yourself that's it I respect that I noticed you're really good at answering the questions that we have for

you so I figured we should kick it up a notch so on this podcast we challenge each of our guests with this game called the Fast Five it's where I ask you five rapid-fire questions and I need five rapid-fire answers and if you do well we'll let you know and if you suck we'll let you know but every guest directly magnets the key to again partnership here we go let's jump on in question number one what is your favorite cologne to wear question number two when making a peanut butter and jelly which one gets more favored the peanut butter or the jelly okay question number three what is your favorite book that you have read that is not yet a movie jam I can't remember the author's name right now but a really really intense and I've thought about like you know when you start healing and haunt about oh I'm gonna make a game someday like that book is definitely inspiration for it's very

very interesting okay question number four who do you think is your would say most underrated creator and any kind of media more content but just an underrated creative mmm so he solo musician from Canada and he's absolutely amazing I thought was a huge band it turns out he makes all amazing himself and nobody's heard of this guy so check out Brad sucks he's a man alright question number five if you could turn any video game villain into your own arch-nemesis but you had to pick who would have you oh that's a good one they'd runner though was it named the not the hair support but the very eccentric guy from yeah yeah I know who you talking about I don't remember his

name though but yeah later that day was gnarly yeah all right now you got you held up one question just because your thing on the answer not so much that you didn't have anything to say I'm still gonna give you a top 15 your your in the Fiat today you're about top 15 yeah good stuff man and then Samsung she said that musician again but he's just really really interesting cat and really funny and very smart music sweet I like that you shine some light so that's awesome yeah those are my five questions for you this week thanks for playing one so I have a general question you and like being in a company for ten years is obviously a rarity right your business you're a made man at that point but also you're able to kind of see where the industry is I just want your general

thoughts on with everything that's happening right if we just really just circled down in the Bay Area with all those layoffs and not layoffs or studio closures and this and that like what are your thoughts just being you know falling in love with the industry and being there for a long time and as a game developer for any hopefuls or anybody that is still within a studio like what are your general thoughts about how everything's going it's tough about the 2k you know I have to give them a lot of credit like written down but they really work hard to move them around they move me to you know what became hangar 13 well among a bunch of other people they moved a lot of people to publishing so it's always maybe changing I mean I had the film industry changing California's even

worse to see [Music] well whilst there are closure and thing there's also Studios opening as well you know there's new Studios popping up a lot of mobile stuff going on there's a lot of VR AR stuff going on part of it is really staying nimble continuing to learn and not becoming too entrenched you know we were talking about being a 2k for almost 10 years about nine and a half years I think that entrenchment at the end sort of asset than an advantage I was becoming stagnant if I was becoming comfortable if I was to you know consciously but so I think will help and also again just like going freelance so you can walk through that door and a bunch of doors open I know a lot of people and you know kind of ended up in a really crappy situation but right away like doors opened up you know

another student it's time to reach out and so all of a sudden what seemed like something really bad good you know and they said wow that you know that would be the best thing that ever happened to me oh I'm in mind the situation realize that your first impression of a situation may not actually be a good indicator of how it's gonna play out hmm yeah I respect that is there anything that you'd say has been the most surprising in your experience because obviously you prepare for as much as you can in freelance and then maybe other than the initial dry spell like was there like a moment of like oh wow I did not prepare for this but have to deal with all right like what was the biggest surprise thus far in your experience in going freelance I was not prepared to end up at ILM I didn't expect that at all very surprising yeah history's going to California a lot of

it is you know moving to Canada and a lot of its moving to London a lot of its you know if you guys have seen life a life after pie and that's a documentary that kind of talks about it I'm sorry effects industry and California's and it is in a weird place I mean not unlike the game industry but it's I don't think it's announced in games yet I think games are just more volatile in general mm-hmm be a huge bet right like if you make a hit your Studios rocking and you're set if you don't I see in the studio so a friend um he's surprising you not to be honest there has bill a huge number surprises going freelance I'm as a little surprised how quiet it was initially but you know can't be surprised by that maybe that was my uterus I was surprised when things really started picking on I was surprised when I had to start saying no in the since going freelance it hasn't been like a world of shocking well then

I have a follow-up question then have any of these people in this again kind of gets into personal I don't know how much gonna reveal but it's always interesting to me to ask these types of questions because I see a lot of freelancers provide great work for a company and then the company's like why don't we just hire you you know ii mean like has that been a conversation that you had to have in your field lines career where a company has been like no look look let's just bring you on the team how about that and then turning that down or saying yes or I guess have you had any experience with that um I had one that was funny my name is very humbling again a great education so I was talking to a local developer contract I say but you know let's just assume that everything goes well bring on board and isn't quite there yet I really want a conversation um one thing that I would say is I'm not relocating like my wife's happy we got a great ad that we love did he hear good friends and so relook it's not really an option

and a lot of the stuff involves relocating to Seattle or so that is kind of one one of the 21 was take over studio incredible people great studio great games but they were working in unity they I mean we were very for threatening the conversation we first started talking like I don't use unity I'm not you know I'm but I'm an unreal guys specialize in Houdini and unreal that's it I thought you know I'm a quick learner you know we all do this and they were really excited and and I want to do is learn a new engine carry orcs that they've built into it ocean so you can do that in a studio and you'll pick it up pretty quick but I found we're taking a long time it shouldn't have taken so long so after about a week I just fessed up at hand I'm like guys well I am so sorry but I don't think that's gonna work and they

were so cool that investment hang in there yeah I think the surprise was you know you get to a point where you've got 12 years experience doing one thing you're kind of stupid to go and two weeks experience and think you're gonna be as good or as a pible all about it and we had it you know we had a good laugh and I ended up doing destruction for him until my contract ran out but pretty surprising that's cool though shout out to them for their attitude and your attitude and how this what kind of went down seems overnight I told them I was like new they have to pay me because I feel like you know we made it villain and I'm backing out and they're like did ya get out of here man here too sensitive voice and then if you can finish this up and down up and then in the end I ended up they ended up extending me for a week just to work on their trailer which was like totally pre-rendered so I wasn't a game stuff but oh but no mumbling and again I think the key and this is really important at freelances be a very direct and open with everybody you know people you're contracting and the people you're

working with your clients and I was just very very honest with them that guys you guys are paying me you think they're an expert and they're getting novice and it makes me feel terrible every single day so you know let's just you know let's call this a learning experience I've got a good laugh out of it yeah yeah that was a yeah subnautica guys I want to give them a big shout out man they were absolutely so cool all those guys are Charlie they're amazing I love it I keep hearing about them and them in general very friend of mine who's yeah that's really cool with the recent developments of new systems and VR and AR I mean now that you you've always been a very curious guy a technology from what I remember right Oh what do you see a future and all those things that we're doing with the RNA are because it's kind of stagnant in this way maybe it's being using virtual production I feel like the virtual yeah visual effects guys are using it more than games or and more practical ways than we are I would love to hear your

thoughts about that I did I have a client and and working in VR but they're doing location-based stuff so it's very different a really good friend Ron who's this is absolute genius zone games as a music as a program does he art does everything and absolute games I think it is but he's just and he made this amazing VR game and fans him go through that experience I don't think the market is big enough VR mm-hmm that's kind of he's now making I think other games for mobile and PC and he's also like a heavy hitter I'm though I don't think he's gonna have any trouble anytime soon but just thing to watch and I had some other friend to do the same thing and had the same result you know they're selling three coffee the week it on sale and but

in terms of just retail VR I'm just not sure the installation base is there the other thing was as you know I wouldn't gotten oculus I you like no I use it when I work with that VR client time in that isolated world with my eye sweating and if it's something that you're really gonna do I think that's really the goal right that compulsion loop to get people to play I I don't know and I know the the virtual production stuff is pretty amazing they're doing some really interesting stuff there I think a science side and the architecture side and the visualization side I think there's a lot of cool cool cool stuff going on there but in terms of just like game development like retail VR entertainment I haven't seen the killer rap yet I am maybe maybe I just haven't seen that X and I've doing some really cool stuff that Vader thing it's pretty compelling but again I'm I'm not sure I

would ever decide to focus on no no I should I think the same sentiment as you it seems like VR and AR is picking up a lot of steam in other industries ironically where you know we gave birth to it but we have no idea what to do with it right right I mean it problems that normal games console games just don't like traversal I mean that's just like a huge problem like soon as you move the camera you get sick you know I played a game no matter what it was I certainly wouldn't name it but it was pretty cool and then the art was solid and it was tough on a moving platform and I swear that head said it was on the desk and I never picked the game up again I think that uh or is that I can't remember what it alone I guess or something like that pretty cool that was actually one of the better implementations but even that like it didn't really hold me for hours on end so I'm just not sure although it did start in real time I'm not sure that

games where real time was is really where it's gonna end up making its mark well I can say this looking up my little clock over here it says we've been podcasting for about an hour now so that is another feat that you have achieved on this episode you have won twice and at this time Brandon I usually will step away from the microphone to allow you some opportunity to talk directly to our audience to shout out to promote or raise awareness and just generally shining some spotlight on something you're excited about something you're interested in or just anything in general that you think needs more attention than it currently has so without further ado sir the floor is yours freelance and you know you've got some experience do it you open that door you'd be okay it can be a little scary crimes but you'll be okay um a couple shoutouts e up at 3:43 the best human

beings you'll ever minions Lorant at ILM working on a big project right now we're the only contractors they brought back so that speak those talents we're on you're the man my boy Rowan who got his open-water certification in a class with six adults at 11 years old and absolutely killed it we're proud of him Brad sucks great musician I got any Malu right now and the Botto man you want to get scooped you know start scuba diving come and talk to us amazing people amazing trips and of course the airship creative it need dynamics effects it's all secret scuba adventures some high-end training or take some really cool trips to Paradise and whole adventure video of your experience oh man you guys podcasts are so rad they're so human down-to-earth and I really really enjoy it the kudos to you guys Brandon and Larry man you guys kill it it's amazing stuff Jesus thank you thank

you so much [Music] all right thank you everyone for joining us see you guys next week thanks a lot guys have a great day [Music] you [Music]