The ex-Riot producer betting mini-games will be China's next big export

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Hi everyone and welcome back to yet another episode of In the Hot Seat. Now, in today's episode we're continuing our quest to sort of demystify the black box that is the Chinese games industry and there's honestly no better person to help me do that than my next guest. He's gone from R&D engineer at Panasonic to 7 years at Riot to executive producer at an AI game studio and now he runs his own cross-border advisory firm actually helping to facilitate deals between China and the West. Bowmei, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you.
Thank you so much Maryam for having me here.
I'm so excited to talk to you. We have much to talk about. I gave you a little bit of an intro there. But for my first question, Bow, you've gone from R&D engineer at Panasonic to 7 years at Riot like I mentioned to executive producing an AI game studio and now you run Good Day Solution, your own cross-border advisory firm. Talk to me a little bit about your

journey. It's been a pretty interesting one. So, I want to hear from you what that looks like.
Yeah, of course. Happy to. So, yeah. So, I started my career as a software engineer which gives me a engineer's way of approaching problems. I then spent nearly 8 years at Riot where the cross-border collaboration became a actually a central part of my work. So, I worked closely with our Chinese publisher Tencent across many initiatives like from production to publishing to new game launches. Even I also helped the company to establish China the Riot's first China office. So, I think those I'm grateful for that experience because on one hand those experience actually helped me shape my thinking regarding the go-to-market strategy because you know for a game that can be successful globally it doesn't it is not just about the marketing and distribution to a

certain market. You know, you really need to understand the local players' expectations and actually change the whole meta, not just monetization strategy. That experience really shaped how I think about the go-to-market strategy because it's it doesn't really just about the game itself and also the marketing and the distribution channel itself. You really need to understand the local players' preference and then kind of accommodate the whole meta, not just about monetization strategy to the local players' experience. Um, you know, that can range from the publishing to communication to progression, social features, so on and so forth. So, on the other hand though, I'm also uh become familiar and become better at working across different cultures and decision-making styles. Like understanding between the East and West, what each side was actually trying to achieve, uh what each side each side is trying is making assumptions and um, you know, making the their assumptions and expectations clear and finding a way

uh forward that both sides could actually support. So, after right, I moved into uh studio leadership and entrepreneurship, but I'm still working with teams and uh you know, stakeholders across different countries, cultures and different, you know, professional backgrounds. So, I think international collaboration continued to be a part of of what I'm building and what I um, you know, uh operate that company. So, over time, you know, more and more companies started to come into me and ask about similar questions such as, you know, how do we um enter a new market? How do we evaluate a game or a team in another market? Um, you know, what should we do, you know, to adapt the local players' expectations? Uh, you know, what should we do to find the right local partners, so on and forth. So, my current company, Good Day Solution, actually grew naturally out of the those demands. Uh currently, we're working with uh clients from uh all over

the place uh from the kind of ecosystem, you know, investors, studios, publishers, tech technology providers. So, we were working closely with them on the uh a bunch of initiatives either on the product and team evaluation, uh the new market uh go-to-market strategy, uh the local part local partnerships cross-border uh you know, in a cross-border setting, so on so forth. Um so, yeah, so I mean, beside uh Good Day Solution, I also create uh my social media called The Nice Wave, uh and I also uh organize a bunch of industry events uh during um you know, GDCs and ChinaJoy. So, um these may looks like different activities, but they all serve the same goal, which is closing the information gaps, uh building trust across regions, and create meaningful collaborations and connections between the Chinese and then the global game industries.

Really interesting stuff, but now we mentioned Good Day Solution, but you touched on Ninth Wave there. So, talk to me about Ninth Wave because something is clearly missing here, right? Between Chinese and global game industries that goes beyond just mere translation. Now, I I want to kind of ask you, is that product judgment? Is that trust? Is that decision-making process? Which one of these is the hardest to fix in your opinion and why?
Yeah, yeah. So, um The Nice Wave actually grew out of something that I keep seeing in my work um you know, you know, again again in the cross-border setting. So, Chinese game professionals nowadays, especially under the AI area, they don't lack information. They have actually have access to lots of uh international news. But, what's often missing for them is what that information actually means for an actual decision on the product side, on the business side, so on and so forth. So, for example, should we enter this market based on those information that we have?

You know, what should we change the product you know to serve the local players in the new margin in the new region in the new market? Which signals you know should we trust before we commit more resources to a certain market so on and so forth. I think that's why the nice wave is built around those demands. Basically, we wanted to provide the practical business judgment rather than simply translating global news. I'll give you a tangible example. Right? So, for previously we have this conversation with a gaming veterans from Latin America market. We just don't stop at talking about the We're not just talking about the market size or our player numbers, but we also looked and and and drive deep in terms of why, for example, Brazil and Mexico should require different product and publishing strategies, why, you know, those the players from those regions are are actually having

different preferences and expectations, and why localization can involve not just about translation, but also about onboarding page, about monetization timing, about payment infrastructure, so on and so forth. So, And also regarding what you just talking about, you know, the product judgment, the the the decision-making process, the the trust, I I believe, you know, those are all challenging areas for any company to to think of and to concur when when it comes to you know global expansion and operations, but I think among those three, building trust is the hardest. Because, you know, um for the first two, you actually can, you know, you can you can become more and more clear through the operation process. Um you know, but I think the trust is something that you actually wouldn't feel it it will it really exist until something becomes difficult, right? For

example, you know, the first several meetings with the local partners will be usually easy, but, you know, when it comes to a hard question, then, you know, it really becomes, you know, whether or not both sides and can actually comes together and then really be open-minded and then comes with a solution that can benefit both sides or is it something that really um disconnected, you know, below the surface, right? So, I think, for example, in China, a strong introduction uh a warm introduction may open the door, but it really doesn't immediately bring you into the uh trust trusted circle, I'll say. So, that what takes time, consistency, and following through. So, I think, talking back, the nice wave, uh it can't manufacture that trust immediately, but what it can do is to provide the shared context before, you know, uh the the parties can actually begin working together on a cross-border uh kind of type of

settings.
Really interesting now. But, you said that China's games ecosystem feels more confident and forward-looking in the Western markets right now. What's driving that? Is it AI or is it something deeper about where the two industries actually are in their cycles?
Yeah, I think it's actually deeper than AI. Um I think, you know, don't get me wrong. I think the Chinese market game market is actually um facing the similar realities as the rest of the world is is facing right now. It has its its common its its uh shared ups and downs, right? For example, it has layoffs, it has, you know, more and more cautious capitals, you know, but on the upside, it also has embraced at opportunities cost and brought by AI. So, I think those are very similar. But, I think on top of that, what I'm seeing is I think of there are few key observations and reasons that I believe, you know, the

Chinese market is is is more looking like forward-looking and and more like all confident to to certain levels. So, at the business level, first of all, I think, you know, the the Chinese companies still see new path to growth, you know, mini games, for example, you know, for the past 5 years, it has grow almost 20-fold in Chinese markets. And then, you know, it caused new format, new distribution channels, for example, you know, the the the the WeChat mini path mini game platform, the TikTok mini game platform, so on and so forth. And more and more companies is actually expanding their their business globally. So, I think, you know, those new growth is actually creating new audience and new business models. But, also, you know, from a policy perspective, I saw a stronger policy signals. For example, the latest Chinese government's 5-year plan, it officially

support, you know, high-quality games to go overseas. And also, you know, since 2025, the game design was actually added as a stand-alone undergraduate major. I think that that is actually quite important to Chinese from a Chinese culture perspective, you know, because um for a long time, you know, games is actually from a kind of public sentiment perspective, it's kind of neutral to negative because a lot of parents are actually thinking the games are harmful to their children Uh you know etc. But nowadays I think there are more games are increasingly seen as a a legit career as well as a cultural products. For example, the the e-sports players is now actually thinking more and more positive positively regarding a a career that is belong under the the sports category and also for example, the Blacksmith Wukong right is actually treated as a cultural product because of

success. So I think I saw the culture side has that shift but also taking the the business side and then the the policy side putting those signals together, I would say you know those factors are actually make the mood feels a little bit more optimistic and forward-looking even though again the underlying challenges are are real.
Definitely. Now you touched on something there Bill mini games and I don't think we can have this conversation without talking about mini games and what a phenomenon they are. I mean I think I read somewhere recently it was a seven billion dollar market if I'm not wrong and you specifically sort of believe that mini games could become the sort of east to west trend in the next one to three years. Now western markets have historically resisted a lot of Chinese monetization models but what makes you think that mini games will be different this time?
Yeah, I think that's a great question but I think first of all I may wanted to separate the monetization and the mini games as two separate topics and I would

love to delve you a little bit on on both sides. So first of all monetization, yeah I think I agree with you that you know the western are actually have been resisting some of the monetization strategies importing from China for for some good reasons, right? I think monetization is not to my understanding and my opinion cannot be treated as a stand-alone feature. It's actually the outcome of the whole matter. It has a deep relationship with the progression system, with the local players' expectations, you know, and how they feel the the reward is fair, how fast that they want to progress, you know, from a kind of again, a local player preference perspective. So, I think, you know, for for for many times, you know, the the Chinese monetization to certain regions, right? It might feels more as a pressure rather than an enjoyment, right? Because, you know, some of them are actually too aggressive, they start to monetize it too early,

you know, their progression to the progress too fast so that, you know, again, the players is actually feeling that they're working rather than enjoying the contents. I think that's fair, right? But, I think, you know, on the other hand, though, the mini game, I think those mini games as a new format as well as a new kind of distribution channels, in general, a new business model, right? I think to your point, I think there a few key observations that I'm I having that's that feeling that it can be a trending very soon, you know, from from east to west. First of all, you know, I already seen mini game has global trending, you know, for example, the the YouTube has its its mini game ecosystem already. The Discord activities, the the Telegrams has its mini games ecosystem. Even for even for LinkedIn, it has its games already. So, so I think, you know, that's a basically a trending that, you know, the those large companies are

starting to to to observe and then started to put resource on, right? I think also, from a kind of like a first principle perspective, I starting to feel like the global audience, the global players, they're sharing similar similar preferences, similar trends. For example, players' attentions nowadays are become more and more fragmental, right? I think mini as a new format actually matches their current behaviors because it's actually a shorter format from discovery to really enjoying the content in game. So, I think, you know, because of that uh that uh character, uh you know, mini games are become more and more popular uh among global players, not just about, you know, the the Eastern side. Uh and also, you know, if you look back at China, uh I think I briefly mentioned, you know, for for the past 5 years, Chinese um market has been growing 20-fold, um you know, regarding the mini

games, right? And then you're absolutely right. I think in 2025, the total market has contributed 7.6 billions for mini games, and this year it's project is projected to reach uh I I would say 9 billion. Um so,
Wow.
it's it's still it's still growing really fast. And then through the past several years of growing and iteration, I would say the operational knowledge um you know, coming like accumulated from from the past 5 years can actually travel globally. Uh and then combine with the customized uh meta and then the monetization, not simply just like, you know, translate the pricing tag and language, I I foresee, you know, in the future, the Western market can actually kind of combine those two and then leverage those two and then to really kind of, you know, grow the mini games to the next level.
I have to agree with your um predictions there, Bo. I I I I Yeah, I agree. I I see it being more of a a thing in the West as well as we

kind of take on mini games more. So, my next question to you, Bo, is you know, we talked about monetization a little bit, but China and the West have fundamentally different approaches to game monetization if we're being realistic here. They have different player behaviors, there's different platform ecosystems, there's different regulatory environments, advertising models. You are someone who's seen both sides of the coin because you do cross-border work. Where do you see companies getting that wrong most often? And what does it look like to actually get it right?
Yeah, yeah. Um so, I think we have discussed that that a little bit already, but I think you know, overall, I think the mistake um that I've been seeing in my work of of Good Game Solution is people are treating the local market um and the local insights a little bit too late. So, for example, a project like a a game team, a game studio, they may spend years locking down the progression, the economy, right? The monetization, the

offer structure, the live operations plan, and so on and so forth. And then when it comes when the games comes to launch, they will usually bring a regional like publisher, producer, and ask them to translate the game and adjust in the pricing tag and ask them to acquire the local users. But I would argue that you know, by that point, most of the decisions has been made, especially regarding the monetization side, right? And and I also would argue, you know, those uh mistake happens in both directions. Uh for example, you know, a Chinese game company may bring high ad frequency, aggressive launch offers, or very fast progression into a Western market. Uh then the players like I like I mentioned, you know, they will experience those systems and contents more as a a pressure rather than enjoyment, right? And and vice versa, you know, a Western game may also enter the China with slower content updates

and the lighter meta layer. Then I think it will struggle to find out players don't have enough reasons to come back and continue stay within the the So, so I think you know, the same My point would be the same mechanic can create a very different uh you know, response and and outcome depending on the local players uh preference and expectations. So, you know, in that case I think naturally a good example will be you know, to really bring in the local insights earlier when everything can still optimize and change. And then you know, you First of all, you really needs to think about the local uh kind of like a hard constraints. For example, the regulation, the local players, uh you know, the preference, the uh sorry, the local platform rules, the the the local infrastructure regarding, you know, the payment, uh the the data management, so and so forth. But then you really need to understand the local players' expectations. And then kind of adjusting the whole meta the whole meta features

according to their expectations and preferences. And then really validate your uh your iterations, your assumptions through, for example, the local uh cohorts, uh play test, or or soft launch, so and so forth. And then gain uh enough insights to continue iteration. Um So, I think the local partner in in that whole process, uh no matter is from your in-house team or from a kind of like a partnership perspective, they really needs to access to the data and insights and really has to uh to have a voice through the whole kind of like a product decisions iterations. And I think uh that's the I would say that's the only way for a game to be really immersed and accommodated uh to the local kind of like local players' preference and kind of immersed into the local market.
Interesting stuff, Bo. Now, you mentioned um mini games. Now, you have this level of expertise, as I mentioned,

seeing all sides of the deal making from China to the West. So, tell me about one thing that's happening in the Chinese game development space right now that you think the Western industry is just completely sleeping on. They They've missed They've missed the boat that you think they need to get to grips with.
Um so, I I wouldn't say they're completely blind because again, nowadays that the world is flat, you know, everybody has enough information. Uh you know, I think what they what they kind of lack of is is more of the the first-hand uh experience or a sharing from the the the real kind of like local veterans, right? So, I think again, that's why I'm I'm creating uh the next wave. But, I think, you know, I would say for uh the Western part the parties um that are interested in knowing more about Chinese market, don't just look at the the surface. Don't just look at the headlines, right? For example, you know, Black Myth Wukong, for example, Tencent,

NetEase, miHoYo, Genshin Impact, King's of Glory, so on and so forth. Because I I see I I actually think there's a uh much larger uh scales of of game studios and companies that's below the surface that have like years of strong capabilities of game development and publishing and operation. So, I feel like, you know, um they may require They may be quieter today, but I think many of them will be part of the next wave of of Chinese games going global. For example, you will see uh I'll say you will see soon that many mini games that have become virus uh to the Western market that is actually introduced and operated by someone that you never heard of before, right? But, they are actually having their root their root deeply uh rooted in Chinese market for many years. So, just pay attention to those uh you know, signals below surface.
Very interesting. We've heard that before, actually, like uh pay attention

to the to the sort of mid-size studios coming out of China because they're doing things that the giants the giants aren't. Um my last question to you Bo is you're speaking at PDC Shanghai on bridging the gap dissecting the East and West monetization playbook. What's the one assumption that you hope attendees that listen to your talk walk walk away from?
Uh one assumption that I will always challenge is that I often heard that people are simply thinking, you know, the Chinese as monetization they many succeed because of simply being aggressive, you know, more as placements, higher frequency, and I you know, more pressure on players. Right? I think that's the wrong stereotype that I'm I'm often and hearing from from from some from someone. So, I think the you know, they're not wrong first of all, but I would argue that the the virtual um I would say

the visible ad load is only on the surface level. You really you really need to look deeper inside, you know, uh because, you know, in many Chinese teams that I've worked uh with or or observed um the ads and other monetization strategies are actually considered much much earlier in the product process. So, teams will actually thinking more from a holistic perspective. They will think overall about the acquisition model. They will think about progression curve, uh the reward, uh and then the decision structure so on and so forth. Um and they will think also about, you know, how the players they're targeting uh can be better suited to, for example, IAA or IAP or even a hybrid uh kind of like a strategy. So, you know, I would argue that um they are actually thinking monetization as one of the key uh elements uh that can contribute to the overall gaming experience in general.

I can give you a tangible example, right? For example, for rewards, um it's it can feels great and useful when it appeals at the right point in the player journey, right? But like I like we just discussed, the same reward, the same mechanic can damage the economy or the damage the players preference when it comes to the wrong place or it's uh it's poorly poorly balanced, right? Through the core the core player journey. So, yeah. So, um I think that's the assumption that I I really want the audience the the attendees to to kind of think twice or really look deeper uh from the sharing of of of the panel list from really looking deeper and thinking Chinese games as a more of a a a whole, thinking the meta system as a whole rather than just like thinking the monetization as a as a piece, a stand-alone feature.
Mhm. I love that though. Thank you so

much. This has been such a fascinating talk and really appreciate you taking the time here today.
Thank you, Mary. Thank you for having me. Again, thank you.