Surviving the Artist Apocalypse with Kinman Chan | GduX.me

[Music] so I've been attended field for about 15 16 years maybe 17 I don't know a long time at this point losing track of exactly how many years but oh yeah and in a number of industries I've worked in film networking games animation did dabble in theme parks comics some poster development toys and yeah kind of covered a wide spectrum of industries as an artist so does that is that what you're looking for do you want but you want me to die down in more specifics or now that's apply sentiment so yeah I mean you definitely been in industry for a long time and I wanted to appreciate

the different types of industries that you've been in I think you're one of the few friends and colleagues that we you know I've had that pretty much touch I think every types of medium and in expressions of art in other industries that utilizes your particular skill right can you expand that on that bit where we're talking he's being a little modest he's been in the industry over like what 20 years now been around yeah yeah but yeah like my first my first I guess major gig was Lucasfilm over to I worked directly with George Lucas were three years and then moved on to Doug Chiang on a few things eventually getting the October 1 and yes I worked in a number of film projects and then transitioned into comics was able to work with Dave Gibbons on the

project and yeah number over their development so good stuff so I'm sure over the years to being around students around colleagues and around people who are just generally interested in getting into these different types of industries that's right guess the most common question that it always goes to is like how much I mean what does it really take to to get into these industries to get started first I think if you're starting out in the industry like you're trying to get in as an artist I feel like it's important to know first which industry you want to get into and be a very good consumer of that product in terms of like just knowing what the landscape is knowing what the what you're gonna be working for so that's like if if any pre-qualified errs that's definitely one

that has to be there beyond that you have to show that you can perform for those for those industries so let's say it's a game right you have to show that you can do you can develop artwork for the property that you're going to be working for and so there's three there were like elegantly presented would like to be qualities that that kind of stuck with me was being fast having great work like high quality work or being just a friendly guy and so if you can capture what that means for each and the sheep being fast being quality or game friendly have two of those and for the most part you'll be that's that'll get you good leg up in terms of like getting

in I think over the years I've developed like I feel like there's one more factor there and that's a adaptability so on top of being fast on top of being really good on top of being super friendly and being easy to work with are you adaptable because these industries like the games industry the film industry all these things are shifting all the time technology new technologies like getting introduced so how if you're trying to get in first are you good enough and then can you adapt your style or your something about you to me to be able to fit the needs of a shipping industry that's what I would say about that Brendan yeah sorry I was

a meet us being in the industry for a while now and the things that at least the pattern that I see for a veteran such as yourself and being an industry myself for that amount of time is the power to endure it sustained I think I think it was more if we get to get paid for the craft it's a lot it's an easier conversation because then it would be just like you know it's good work or not right but I think what makes it heavy is either the people or the other stuff when things don't go well like when the office or the the company or the the project or something all these other factors beyond just me and my craft did

I deliver it right so my question is uh [Applause] what keeps you going man like yeah yeah your I think we go by the traditional gain dev lifecycle which is I think you've heard of this about this like five years right five years is like the burnout rate for most industry developers yeah so you lived four times the lifecycle of a game if we were to factor that in so do you mind kind of going through like let's scrap this question into something very interesting the five ten fifteen twenty year mark did you notice like each of those five years being launched and monumentally different challenges there were definitely different challenges one was like I heard some of your older

toxins like you're talking about a largest atrophy and that definitely happened and then life happened and then and then different phases right so it's more like in the beginning it's more like I've learned everything in school and I've kind of maxed that out everything into it learned I've basically used that took my full pan full potential and I don't know where to go so then I didn't kind of expand out of that and then over the years it was more like my role like like as a concept artist had kind of expanded like and just exhausted all my resources everything I learned in concept art over the first couple years like I kind of I felt like I got to a point where I couldn't grow from there and it was like it was a hurdle to kind of overcome so

there are definitely sticking points like over the years and when you're talking about like life stuff happens it's just like I think with age that comes with it right your your circumstance changes or the friends and family plays a big role it to that it was there any someone get too personal any specifics besides that you would like to share about like whoa this is something I did not anticipate like I mean related to work right so I mean there are a couple of times when projects just for whatever reason they just get shut down now and you're not able to no matter what you do as an artist sir or in your role to to be able to be excellent in that field just decisions get made up top and you or not you're

all of a sudden that'll work right things like that and so what would you do how can you this is where adaptability comes in because you have to kind of be able to think on your feet figure out like okay wolf what everything I was doing was for this specific project or for this particular piece or subject matter right and then now that that's it stripped away from you you have to kind of go back to the landscape and figure out like okay what else is out there and how can I care all my work towards something new wait things like that happen that's happen sometimes so right and so how do you keep your art fresh and relatable with with the new techniques that you said there's this like momentum that you get from school where your instructors or mentors kind of lay it out for you and and say these are the things that you

need to improve in and like you said you reached to a point where you felt really good and comfortable about those things that you need to improve and you started venturing kind of different industries of basically how to apply those in different ways yeah how do you keep yourself going and reinvent yourself so that you're not going stale yes so I think one thing I mean a lot of reflection time obviously between those like he goes in waves sometimes you're really busy but other times where you have a lot of time to reflect so I feel like as an artist I've always been a good learner of I took principles or craft so for me that was what I stuck to when things in a wall I would find something else to about the industry

that maybe I was we and try to learn something new about it so dive into different style or dive into different when I was consuming or try to consume different things and try to try to explore what what else in one state what are people responding to what are what kind of weather interventions or other events like key codes you to try and learn something that I haven't learned already you know soand I'm in to try new things in that in that respect and it kind of got me through sometimes it's all together like completely different like I picked up cooking I like to cook so I started cooking for a while yeah you know on the side and then things that would pick up from cooking now and actually bring back in with our work and apply it in a higher level so it's a

yeah it's different for everyone yeah you gotta expand that on let's expand that a bit what how do you take something so different like cooking and actually bring it back to the Cintiq okay so and you can break down art into principles right like yeah value you out color right you have shapes and like things that you can do with their light or if there's different types of quality of the line that you can apply to any drawing or any painting right so learning how to itemize those valuable pieces of our and put them together I always think of it like two ingredients right so if if you so you have your recipe like let's say like we're looking at Munich unio right now so let's say

you know can you have a certain recipe of elegance in art right it's like it's lime heavy right it's more about there's not so much like heavy form shadow lighting it's much more about the design character so that has to be strong silhouette has to be strong and so there's these there's these items so you can kind of list right and so from a cooking standpoint that would be your base like soup right or like you have your the main ingredients that you want to play in a soup and then how do you make it your own these different flavors right like what are you trying like like yes a couple days ago I added strawberries to tomato paste right to actually punch up the flavor so you can do the same things when there are like what are some like little things that you haven't tried that you could spice up for like like if you're playing around with line work if you're

doing something very light heavy how can you add this other layer to it that is that maybe not maybe no one has thought of like to kind of add into the mix so and that can be content it could be something that you're trying in terms of how you put down a stroke it could be your line weight it can be all these things and like you just have to like really dive deep and like be creative in that sense so that's your question of course so uh I mean you clearly are showing I'm just showing some of your work man some I haven't even seen yet so dope badge line you're obviously qualified you're obviously really excellent at what you do and we talked

about a bit how you kind of played around with jumping different industries to kind of keep those challenges up for yourself so you're not bored because it sounds like to like that that can easily happen and the way you're talking about how food can go back into your 2d artwork is definitely something at least highlights how much of a better artist you are because I don't know I do not like that I don't go back and look at my ramen that I'm cooking that day and I'd be like how do I make my better better 3d I don't know that's just that's my what that's my way of dealing with things you know it's I don't think everyone has the same path for sure but when you explain it to me it makes a lot of sense it's like your brain is kind of configured in a way that you can piece things together and then it just clicks and so when you do bring it back into your tablet or Cintiq or drawing board you you start to

see these patterns that your brain just gets practiced from all this other art form that you're kind of experimenting and I I to me it makes total sense because it it gives you the break that you need because I think a lot of artists are so hunched over all the time and oh yeah five year mark right because you're use you're so comfortable doing a thing right like you've gotten to a routine of making a high quality piece and you have a certain method of doing that and you do the same thing and that's how you get it done right but you're so using that doing that same thing over and over and over it's like nothing's new it's kind of boring right so so that that's like how I kind of learned how to take it to another level baby mm-hmm and have you talked to other artists or developers but that shares the same

amount of years for advice like what kind of what are the best and worst advice that you've gotten from these people when we're kind of approaching passed the five-year mark the 10-year mark now let's say as for an example and you're like just looking for like wow it's I made it through or past the graveyard of developers I would say 60% 60% of developers who felt the burn didn't come back from the grave right but now I'm in a little like 40 or 25% of the people who survived that but I'm also feeling that dip of like you know and I also feel this way like around the seven ten year mark you especially in the game ministry you've reached the salary cap of what you can earn in your position and it's like alright money's not the motivated anymore yeah I mean I've been lead I've

been in these different positions but it's just it's just a it's just a title really at this point right with a different level of type of a [ __ ] that comes with it yeah yeah the challenges of that really yeah yeah right so it's it's a marathon right and so how do you there's there's different ways of countering it I guess and it's I really think it's case-by-case everyone's got a different story to tell and different struggles to go through so some are like yeah okay I kind of feel like it also starts with what you were passionate about in the beginning so like I have a friend who we connected on art because we were both really passionate about art and and training in that respect and so we would struggle through over

the years would kind of struggle together about different things that we were you know you just have you know respond that way you know you have like conversation long conversations about art and what it what it means to be an artist and in these feels like what other like yeah like what what else is going on how people are approaching it and then the why am I so frustrated doing what I do and how can i benefit like how can I hear value so lots of conversations around that but other people like I've talked to you like they they really just they're not so they don't need that interaction as much like they they work on their own right and so what they would do is just when they're feeling it they would they take like a six-month sabbatical and like just travel travel Europe for like six months and not do anything and then they

come back all refreshing and like good to go so it's different Berglund have you tried then have you gone I have done a little yeah I've done a little bit of traveling it does help for sure you get so you getting so much exposure to things you would never think about here's like for us it's in those days right so but yeah like you know travelling to Barcelona was awesome and traveling to these different places in Europe were really eye-opening like you get different taste of culture and kind of some insights of how he believed over there and it's very different you know and also what they what you learn about what people aspire tours and you know visiting museums like get to see a glimpse of what they are inspired by so

it opens your mind that way for sure I was able to see for like I was I guess this is kind of related to my path was I got to see people like dolly or Picasso and and to see their journey like in over a lifetime you know and I think that was really helpful for me because like I got to see how much love how much more love they put into their work and so say someone that's working for a game you know as a just a nine-to-five right it's a there's a huge level difference than how much passion and how much more dedication they put into their work like it sounds like so and let me know let me

know if I'm going if you want to move on to another topic but no man is he uh I got to see Gaudi right for instance in Barcelona and like he's an architect just as like you know he did that so graphically media but he spent like he spent like ten - at least 10 to 20 years on like one building or in the in his finals like masterpiece like things are gonna Familia keep spent like 40 years of his life living at the place working on this one building or one tower of one building and they're still working on it to finish it and so like looking at the details like you look at you can you can find pictures online obviously it's beautiful but you can see like gotta give give those look like how it feels but when you go into the details like and you actually talk some

people about how was made like and the choices of material and why he liked every decision he made was like considered and then so like in he he built his house and like in one of the windows even like man down to the the window handle or like they look like what you used to like open the window no all right I think we slowly just lost them for a second everybody just hang on it's just like it's so intricate like yeah it's like so beautifully done like really eye-opening yeah we just lost you for like two seconds but I think we got a good a model of that don't worry I think I guess my question is is like I think cost of artists this is a little

better than most other types of artists where we get inspiration and motivation by actually visiting these sites I think it's very easy to kind of just google search a lot of this and just it's not just it's not the same type of feeling it's not to take a same type of inspiration just hearing a story where an artist was spending 20 years on a particular piece it's yeah it's not something it's does anymore yeah yeah it's like well I mean just going there and learning these things like kind of get a glimpse into a lot of their philosophies and why they would make these decisions as well and so I feel like maybe not down to the nitty-gritty but just understanding there your philosophy about not behind why they would do something coming back to the artwork I kind of apply some of that

thinking like why you know yeah I understand it why you would do something and as opposed to just getting a you know getting an assignment and doing it and so that definitely gave you an another booth past the ten year mark is it something that you feel like is gonna sustain an artist just continuously getting inspiration by physically visiting these masters I guess the question is is like does that ever do you feel like that that that well I guess the only answer no I don't think that's the only answer well so what other advice do you have with that again it's case by case yeah I really think like everyone's doing two different things so yeah probably too many avenues to explore there well what

other avenues do you feel like other artists usually because the the the ability to go visit a landmark or a beautiful just just remnants of a masters work can feel out of reach for some well yeah I highly recommend and I'm probably the least travel person you'll ever met but it's not like it's not like I don't want to obviously I would want would love to how else would that be reachable if they don't have that access to kind of boost themselves out of that rut the easiest thing would be to go to a gathering where people of different disciplines or different cultures meet and then asking questions about their experience and if if there if there's a

topic that you agree on or relate to and asking questions about that and that's and then you'll probably find that they have some different experiences and different things that they they haven't learned of there so I think just being open to that is it's extremely writing for so these meetups that your time I mean that's it yeah like GDC or like yeah or what else are you three here like you know games or talking about games so yeah Game Developers conferences like you know there's also also she talks like like this one or okay they you just you just posted before about different topics well yeah I think like meetup calm I explored a little bit I should more but it's really a matter like how much time I have these days but yeah if I had more time that would

definitely go to meetup.com and like explore some of those friend interests and for me never gone on like there's different resources like Airbnb has experiences you can try and local newspaper you know pages I guess you hope help again I was you know yellow-faced for a long time not not just the phone book just a yellow page and no one uses stationery as much a part of that is I mean before even going through that I think that it does need to be some kind of reflection and terms of what is it that you feel like you want to grow in or is there something that you feel frustrated about that you could maybe address because if you don't have that in mind that and you and you go to these places like you there's there's no intention there

there's no like there's no real like you don't know what you're looking for so you're probably not going to learn as much if you don't have that prep work I guess well this is a interesting point right here actually so I think when we start going into the industry at least I had a hard time kind of taking feedback which was my like arrogant young young blood type of like I whatever right but then it took a while for me like well you know this is a group type of a project and he proposed way better than I do or she knows way better than I do and it's this kind of group effort because we are gonna put it out there to millions or thousands or whatever who's gonna see this so it's always good to get a fine a mute middle ground right without sacrificing the expression but then now later in my career is like well this guy

I'm back to like this guy doesn't know what he's talking about I know do you find yourself in a similar type of journey now that you know you have 20 years plus years in your belt and as we've seen with your artwork it's like what is it a critique about yeah they like it or you don't and it must be tough kind of take directions at this point your career I mean how I mean draining to it so how did you deal with that I can see that yeah well I feel like they've grown too I mean I feel like you know when I work with someone and haven't seen them for a couple years and then work with them again most of the time they're in a different place too so I kind of kind of engage and approach it that way like they were in a new situation what is it that I've learned that I could provide and are they doing a good job and where are they doing a good job if they're if there's something that I am maybe qualities that they had that were

maybe I consider annoying and how can I count like maybe what can I bring to the table that would counter that or would add to the value of the product regardless I don't know if you agree with that but that's kind of my view my approach I mean that's a very political way of going about it but it is definitely one of those things that I think way I think it's also our experiences right is my like I think productions a little bit more you probably see a lot more that kind of stuff happening and my experiences have been more on the blue sky area and more like on the like about like a front development so I guess there hasn't been that much as much of those dynamics and

if they are they're there they're either above or below right meaning like things happening on the business side I'm sure there's all sorts of levels that happen over there and outside of you know like they begin to point where it's develop a bull and that's a and that's a week we do our job in not just like the boat project and after that it hands off the production so and I'm sure when you're in the trenches like that a lot more stuff might happen but like for concept and development it's more it's much more just like crank out the work and then get the thing get the ball rolling on in terms of how the defining project or define deliver the project or what not so I think that it minimizes maybe some of those dynamics and concept Bart usually does the kickoff of any

project or engagement ain't so uh can you kind of speak on the experiences where especially with your your roles changing oh you've been art director you've been lead you've been a senior artist you've been all over how that kind of ties in at the end I mean have you found yourself at the tail end of things where you're kind of just making sure that the original visions being delivered correctly in all disciplines I guess that's the art director role right just like you know I I painted it this way and you guys didn't do a ride my how you do it my so my art director experiences admittedly is limited I wasn't managing big teams or anything so I didn't have to deal with heavy people dynamics and all the personalities that are involved that so I think in terms of following direction

it was a 10 delivering direction it was much smoother in that sense like basically things needed to get done or like almost like it started up little and so I would just kind of try and cover my bases that way so the stress is more like what have we have we developed a finished product and it has a vision being carried out enough to where it can handle all those aspects of the product so I think that's where the challenge is for maybe a startup development but something like on a bigger project I guess that your responsibilities more slightly more limited or if they are not big then you have a lot of responsibility Internode's like managing people and so that's like there's a whole other set of challenges

there so well on the subject of challenges and the survivability of a an artist I think a big component to that that never really gets talked about as much or at least shared from a mentor to a student or anybody within the industry is the people aspect it's just I always tell this to my my business partner my friend or anybody that is willing to listen out there that people are variables that's they have such a huge impact on your career on your personal projects you can plan it out as best you can but if people come with their problems it just really tosses everything oh yeah on a loop so how has your dynamic change from the beginning your career at the

five-year mark the 10-year mark like have you found it getting easier or are you still going back at the end of the day and be like ah this mf'er I think because the more you work on projects the more you find people that you like working with and they like working with you so they rehire you to work on things and then so as long as you're doing good work and you're friendly or you're connecting with people that match your personality areas then the more that you work like the less that you'll see those kind of things happen so and it because the challenge becomes more about project itself rather than you know this [ __ ] or this guy like you what

they didn't get along with early on right those those kind things are I think things that you work out in the first five years and then you'll connect to the you'll connect with people that you really connect with and those just you know if you stick with them like they'll kind of he going to the next Harbor at all so that's what I found mm-hmm it really does become a game upon itself working with people forming alliances subconsciously or consciously within a workplace and I've seen this a guess in bigger studios and less so in smaller studios but because a lot of times when you go into smaller studios you are there mostly because you know someone right especially late in your career right making that the strategic move it's because hey I know someone

that's there might be a fun thing you never really go out there imply oh do I want to work on the next Call of Duty or do I want to work on this obscure title that no one ever heard of with people I never worked with look whose resume I have can be fine hey there's something you know they're definitely values to that too like I've definitely worked on projects that were maybe consider more obscure or like no one know would have no one else would ever work on that but but there was something about it that I was drawn to that I said I felt like okay this could be really cool for like for me learning coming new and that's I think that's where I think kind of my strength is is learning something about something that I would have more patience for that maybe some of those might not have you found this very soul

among your competitiveness or competitors within a workplace just having the patience kind of see things through me yeah I can't say I can't say it's better or worse it's just that's just kind of just being expect about of myself and moving forward that way and then seeing where things go what are the biggest biggest difference between a 10 year artists versus a 15 what was the biggest thing that you saw change on a personal level where you're like yeah I'm visiting these museums I'm visiting around the world I kicks I reek invigorated my passion for art and learning but I'm hitting the 15-yard mark or 20-year mark now and I'm you know it's looks like do I it's it's always a reset button because uh because

three to five years is usually when we look for new jobs I don't know too many people that are staying within the same job for five ten years if they do that's great but somehow they they settled yeah and not really a maybe changing I can't speak for everyone you know cuz I don't know how they think or what they're going through but my experience was five ten or seven ten years in I think I was a little bit more competitive and it took me another six or seven years to get over that competitiveness and that's that's a really hard thing to do so and then being able to be more focused on team that's actually pretty hard

challenge you know you can say it and it's like there's things that you they do to promote that but to actually install that into your working method as a like let's say freelance artist or someone who is who was more on the our side and less on working with development or like with on production that kind of æneas teamwork is actually not the easiest thing to learn you know in those situations so I feel like that was a big hurdle for me so I definitely can to that I think within our close circles the concept team is kind of similar to well I mean the environment teams usually the biggest team but within the environmental we're not hanging out with like 20 30 plus people it's usually within our clicks which is four to five within our arm reach and yeah it took me

a while to stop being competitive I think the first formative years is like a learning experience of course you're trying to establish yourself on a junior level so there is just like a competition there and then when you get into mid-level the senior you're kind of looking around to see who's the fastest she's the best he's the best quality right yeah and job security becomes real thing because now you have family and mouths to feed so it's more like alright how do i you know shine myself a better light that this person next to me and then years after it's like oh my god we're all gonna get laid off anyways who cares yeah and yeah and they younger generation right and yeah basically you know these guys are gonna kicked out of their job because this you've given refresher cheaper person can can do everything that the older guy can do so yeah it's like that's where adaptability really comes into play it's like how can you survive in that with those kind of

dynamics so I have a question here from minigame Bazaar partner for this three-day conference the question is what recommended shoot it up sorry I'm gibbering right now what recommendations do you have for younger people who want to learn more about the art side of the industry 8 to 12 years old in particular and this is actually I want to tell you on to that well yeah the a lot of the electives now in at least in the United States have been kind of been taken out I think there's still basics of drawing within the classroom but are in particular has been taken a hit so how do you recommend the young uns get into this where they can at least help themselves pay well I would say I mean years old I feel like that's something that would be a good thing to show

interest with your parents and say you know hey I want to pursue this and they might have a better idea of how to you connect to the right people but on top of that you know there's different things you can research there's a lot of free tutorials online in terms of how to draw you can look into schools like trade schools that that are specific to maybe an area of focus if it is concept then there's definitely concept art schools so you can go to and research about that but if it's just drawing there's also know there's drawing schools specifically for that too so it just depends like where where you want to grow so that's definitely a conversation that with the parents and you know I think Athyn it would be a good bonding experience and it would be

a good way to you know kind of get them on the same page of where you want to go and as you know they're like that's where it's important can be installed to use though now I didn't anytime yeah you join if you agree yeah I totally disagree no right so as a parent myself I at least having some perspective in this industry I think there's two types of drawings and maybe you have a better a broader view on this where you know if there's not much of a future of kids sitting there drawing Donald Duck all day right sure that getting the practice and getting industry but like I would want to tailor that towards more commercial type of art so I mean oh the other thing I would add that yeah 8 to 12 you should be drawing every day if we do have all the free time in the world

so draw as much as you can and draw the things that you really love to draw so start with you yeah if you're aged 12 years old and you're listening to this and you're serious about it you should have you should already have a few things that you already love to draw so I would suggest drawing just you know for Mila spider-man Fumio is Garfield I was like all over the map like drawing cartoons like watching Looney Tunes and just diving into the artwork and like copying stuff for a while you know before I learned that hey there's an actual education and actually go to school for this stuff like up until like I didn't even know that was school for art but I I loved comics and I loved cartoons and and I love video games so I drew whatever I could whenever inspired me to draw I would

just draw that so let me well let me tag into that right so if you were to go back knowing what you know now knowing the career path and how fruitful it could be you going back to that 12 year old kid mention and be like hey I see that you're growing a lot of spider-man but here is a more clear path to optimize your time what would you say to that 12 year old - like instead of wandering around drawing all sorts of things what's a better path for me I wouldn't told myself anything because I was too stubborn as a kid I was - I was too stubborn there wasn't anyone else so yeah I can't say much about that much more about that I was very sick yeah or like a pearl I was gonna no matter what I was gonna draw whatever always there draw right right so

well if but if I mean if I were more if I knew that I was more receptive to this name I guess and I would have to talk myself on me hmm I'd say open open yourself up to different ways of learning you know there's there's a lot of wisdom in you know like growing up I actually didn't like disney drawings but you know like later on like I learned how valuable Disney drawings were and like how important those methods of drawing became too and like were such a court were my foundation and yeah I guess like being open to different methods and also having the discipline to stick to a

method that maybe you don't agree with the beginning yeah and look at the like kind of have the ability to look at the results and if you like the results study that method and be willing to adapt to that method it like four-four time you know until you can get to that lovely to consider that thing that you loved about it and then you can move on so my last question here and this is kind of like coring into twenty year mark here I imagine at this point you're kind of taking a look around and recent years is a little better but this we're starting approach like we used to

be the young one in the studio now we're the older ones yeah there's not and there's not that money much older people that sticks around and it's this constant thing that I always see when I'm working with in the studio right like what I mean that's something that just never get really tired you either swing with it you don't and you hang with the hang with the crowd as much as you can but at some point you're like man where did all the older people go I mean like have you given this much thought because I look around as shoes like it's not like I gave them a send-off or a goodbye I mean there weren't even near the retirement age or anything it's just that they're gone or working at smaller places or just hanging on for dear life it's just something that HR doesn't really help us

yeah some people I have no idea like other people like I know a good chunk of them became leads or became like mourn like director management positions or moved on to you know take care of the kids or somebody that like there's too busy to interact right so I don't know where you're going about that question but that's you know wow just I'm saying we're old yeah yeah and then it's a young type of industry as far as I can tell and right and I feel like a lot of the élysée senior love our leads are kind of exiting games or at least working at Facebook or oculus or working at Google something a little more stable where it's less competitive not saying they're settling but in a way it's uh that's that seems to be where the market

is heading at least people who are maturing or has a family they're looking less about the risk I mean they're looking more at the risk and taking less of it yeah yeah I see from my perspective I see that games of transitioning warranted Mercer developments so like AR er it's becoming like a bigger thing in games it's like I feel like there's like really high borrow quality and games so if you're trying to get in like good luck it's really hard at this point but at the same time I feel like those guys are like super high bar and yeah you know lead positions so they're cranking out great work and so the games industry as

a whole thing it's consistent right it's and so you have your audience you have like the solid products that are coming out so it's so strong industry to be in well yeah definitely like it it is transitioning out that there's more opportunities you know streaming is becoming a thing ARS becoming a RZR something like more relevant slowly and so I feel like people are jumping into youth new avenues it's exciting it's pretty exciting right yeah definitely man uh there's definitely a lot of avenues I'm glad and not to kind of just I'm celebrating the fact that developers are finding places that they can stay feel secure at and not having to worry about the product the end product being the the future of their employment like it's great to have a company like Facebook or

Google whose main revenue stream is not games because games again is so unpredictable yeah where our business model and I think we talked about this a bit with yashka at the beginning of this today's conference where the the business model needs to adapt it change where we're not waiting on two three days I mean two three years after the product is shipped to - see ya something worth pursuing right it's a pretty unless year like a naughty dog or like something huge like that has made a name for themselves it's pretty hard to survive with that kind of them yeah definitely well Kim Min Chan I am so happy for you to kind of guide us through the apocalypse of an artist it is a real thing that I felt for a long time I

think I was with the they're after the five year mark where the burnout rate was very real hit the 10-year mark I was very different in my own experience where I didn't even bother playing the game that I worked on you know that was a really different type of is like yeah it's out yeah well I mean that that's the thing about you know working on a project or a subject matter for so long it's like you get so done to it you like so even I guess bringing it back to the art right so in the in the beginning you're learning about how Anatomy right how to draw a figure boy and then you do that enough you draw a thousands of figures right and you get get so point where it's kind of second nature you don't think about anymore so you know

where it gets really fun like you have to find new things about it that are fun so for me it was like dining comics and learning about posing or like different things from a writing standpoint that you could do it they there and so it might be like drawing a figure that's a you know well it actually the first couple years is more about like drawing a figures in really expressive poses like action you know actually packed like fighting or you know really extreme like motions or moves or just fantastical things and then I feel like it involved to someone drinking coffee coffee or like could be really interesting and how do you draw that like like I don't know

evolves but you have to you have to find something about it that that feels you rather than just making it a second nature thing and doing something of another so for games I can see if you're doing something like Call of Duty over and over you're so familiar with that so I get that or you don't want to draw another military guy like in a desert what are some ways you can make it interesting I don't know there's so many years of life it might be hard to get hard to surround yourself around you probably have to try and travel occur to you something like yeah yeah I mean I guess I have one last question before I send you off just to kind of ask for your thoughts about this in your own personal journey we're both artists of course I'm in the 3d year in TD world

and just you're bringing up tall deity and well I mean I did feel that I did feel that at a certain point and but for me too I took a step back it was uh it was less about the subject but more about my overall health yeah it was more like you know do I want to be one of 300 you know this is a project that probably would survive without me or exist without me and I was at a point where I was like I need to work on something because I got opinions I got ideas to you know that needs to be expressed and if I don't go out and try it this this idea this product in my mind won't exist like I hit at least that was my ten year mark where I felt like I didn't want to be a part of big project anymore just completely it wasn't burnout is just I didn't see an

impact as much as I thought I would oh yeah or he didn't place importance on impact as pictures that - yeah it was just like you know I kind of I started this with like and how do you tailor the kids to make money out of this passion of their words that drawing Donald Duck's into commercial art because that's the viable option right there to turn it into a career right but then after doing commercial art for so long it's like oh my god it's just I'm not downplaying that there is a lot of things you can learn by creating commercial art but yeah the definition of it's a teep things always exciting it's always exciting yeah it's always exciting right definitely like I could see like you're focused on a subject for so many years even though the projects themselves are exciting in that field it's like you

just order to feel great yeah yep yep so this is something you know I definitely see when you're talking definitely resonates with me it's the subject matter is great but there's that the people quality to it where it's like too many people and then the the idea to express myself gets lost right because it's always it's that classic example of a too many or too many hands on the final product right where it gets kind of a malformed from its original creation right yeah right there's a bunch of people touching their clay model what made it exciting and I see that a lot with team effort in smaller teams it becomes I feel it's more pure in terms of exhibition but there is definitely a lesson there with bigger games where their whole marketing

department and stuff that I think needs to be still factored in in smaller projects because you can't just sit there and and do your best art but no one buys it right you're not gonna do that forever so there's a balance there that I'm slowly learning from all my big commercial jobs but at the same time it's uh ah it's disheartening to kind of go through that path with so many people right it's yeah I feel like and working in big environments versus working at small environments there are different challenges there's different advantages and disadvantages so we'll commence on that but we'll definitely got a deal part two of this for sure thanks for kind of joining in and being part of this gee Dex this is also part of the time where if you want to throw some people your way where can they check you out either an art station

let them know yeah I mean I have an or station account at Auburn Instagram our station both you can search for a chin strap to carry NCEP tea I don't post as much as I'd like to just cuz I'm so busy but I if I were to update those would be the place of stuff day [Music] you [Music]