Panel: Is Esports Ready to Mature?

[Music] because you know everyone wants to go now it's the graveyard shift but I've been pumping this panel up all week cracking the whip and tell him they've got to be controversial add lots of content and keep everyone awake this afternoon all right so we will be watching if you start snoring and snoozing we'll send one of these people down to wake you up all right so it just could be one minute because I had a little preparation to have a look at but basically we've talked about is that if you the topic was about the maturity you want to say the eSports and in theory I mean typical thing when you look at a discussion or a debate you always look what does maturity mean is that immature and okay

could pull out the Oxford Dictionary and have this sort of literal version of it but in theory way I looked at it was there's two different things to look at is the actual people in eSports are they mature I use age how they react how they behave and the other parties as an industry how mature is it in comparison to others and I think early we've talked about and a lot of people saying how look there's still lots of things happening in eSports it's growing it's developing and that's maybe one of the things we look at as well as far as the maturities in industry I have to wear my glasses this because it's supposed to make me look intelligent I was going to sort of put together a little bit of intro for everyone and they said well hang on you forgot about this about me because you know I'm really good at this area because I wanted to show you or tell you about the expertise and the knowledge we got up here because really it's quite a thought first of all thought got five people a panel how we going to talk about things especially if I keep talking but anyway but one of the

things was it's really diverse that as far as the knowledge and the different aspects and areas that they could look at these questions rather than just having say like a whole heap of players up there are team owners or you know everyone's got something to me to offer that can really complement this question so I'm not going to introduce them but when they do talk we'll get them to introduce themselves as such so they can they can actually tell you more about what their passion is and what they you know where their thoughts are coming from so matures but looks like me as such according to my wife that's not really the case and she always asked me when am I going to go up and I say why she said because you know you should act your age so what I wanted to look at first of all when we're talking about this and I think it's getting better but you know there has and the problem with eSports it's turbocharged as such if you do something there because everyone's so digitally savvy you know if you do

something wrong it's magnified globally it goes round quickly because social media and things like that so if you stick your finger or hang on there's a camera there so if you did that it could go anywhere I couldn't you know my reputation could be destroyed even further but there's a lot of coverage about behaviors and immaturity do do we see that is that an issue is that maybe one of the things that keeps endemic non-endemic brands away or you want to jump in from the British East books Association and we're not-for-profit set up to promote support grassroots eSports in the UK and we've host tournaments in schools and colleges and I also run exports news UK which is focused on UK legal legends and mainly sort of amateur

and UK East Falls and I've seen I think it's a really important topic to touch on here David because it doesn't often get talked about in eSports you know you often hear the buzz words you see all the growth and you know the bar charts and everything but maturity isn't spoken about much on both of the points you mentioned I see it in a lot of my work covering amateur eSports and I'm saw Peter from Team M point and we'll be able to me up on this that you know you'll see people a lot of time it's young people who don't have the experience messaging organizations like pizzas hi can I join your team I'll bring loads of stuff to your team and not actually just say what they're going to bring or prove it but then on the second point as well you know I'd say sports is above all because it's hard to stay it's still very new but I think if you look at all the franchise leagues we've seen pop up over the past few years a Call of Duty League their

watch league it is starting to mature and I'm really excited to see what will happen in the next five years but that's a wofully sort of start from me I think there's a lot we can do in the grassroots scene to improve things and then that would hopefully filter through it does improve as you reach the pro levels that we've got a good foundation here we've got good initiatives we've got good leaks cropping up in the UK like ESL Premiership gfinity has tournaments epic LAN and so on so hopefully we can see that improve Peter do you ask you just sort of elaborate on the fact that as a as a pro team and with players the expectations you have with them and things like that I'm Peter from I'm co-owner and CEO of endpoint where you organization probably one the top five largest I guess yes I mean I think maturity is a problem in general eSports I think one of them the core issue is education a lot of

people so if you take the traditional sports route football when you're 16 17 18 if you're in an academy or anything you're forced into education you have to do it there's nothing like that a nice force right here within the UK and we are starting to talk with other organizations such as Eminem and vexed and Excel so try and build something where we can work with education bodies and we are looking to do that more because I feel like not just communicating so obviously in this digital world it's not face-to-face anymore such it's more on your screen someone could say something bad to someone in person but that goes out to one person whereas in eSports world you might in the heat of the moment tweet something and that can be disastrous your career I've got a number of people my head there you know for counterpoint roster I will never ever pick up doesn't matter how good they go because of stuff they said in the past which is just detrimental to a career and then people need educating on that but let's load in that fact I feel that because careers

are so short with in eSports I think that people need to have career paths so for example yes you can be a pro player but maybe you should be learning graphics design or film studies or you know social media marketing anything to do with eSports so that after your career is over you can progress after it's like football your careers over 30 or 32 or whatever so it's just about I think having a from a grassroots level off the top having a better network in terms of that and that will help I think in terms of maturity and maturing the scene in general because well I'm I'm CEO fence esports esports work as well so we wanna so we played three games con strike I think last year we were the best times we were number two in the world in average last year sixth or seventh we have started to world champion in our roster first ever non-korean the wind it world champ at the title every last year we also won the first ever up to european league so were you

like top there right you know so we thought with lava get responses like samsung's damages you know like like reticles whatever but I didn't do actually a lot what we've said right I think is blood to do with education but education also means that like fast Nigeria of the eSports organizations like like people who are running running the stuff behind the scenes they also know education right they very you know as a lot of cases where they're X players who kind of just kind of you went true from you know how you you and your career then you okay you're gonna you're gonna run the team you're gonna do this and they know everything about these ports right but they don't have the education they don't want the experience you know and that's actually any kind of you know that that doesn't help right so and you know how I approached is because I'm being actual was building games companies in tech companies right so I've been building startups and then coming in so I'm kind of rare CEO in the scene of like I never played competitive myself and you know gonna look different across and and when

trying to implement some of the things that I've said you know the startup stuff work it's it's a long walk right it's not like okay let's start doing this it's not fingers like a lot of Education a lot of evangelizing if you were it's a long walk but you know we're getting that I think it's clear that the direction is going but it's the wrong way so Nancy now you want to say something we're looking at it a little bit different so sorry I'm Nancy Basti from the Vancouver Economic Commission my file is media and entertainment so I'm able to look at everything screen based and the technology of the support sentence and look at the connecting points to see what's happening so in Vancouver we do have a 40 year history of film there's no effects animation games and we're seeing that all these things are needed for the next wave which we see as eSports of course I'm looking at it more as an economic driver if robots are going to be taking over

all our jobs what are the jobs of the future and we see eSports and that ecosystem as that and so you know we do get government support a lot of countries don't but we have govern and support so we've been given money to do research and strategy development to start developing an ecosystem and not it's education is a huge part of that infrastructure community government policies and so we're kind of trying to figure out what this could look like we hosted dota 2 the International August 2018 and it was great but that's just one kind of piece of the puzzle we see getting kids like every sport in elementary school in high school college leagues and trying to figure out what that could look like where the money could be where the new jobs could be in order to make it something sustainable because basically it's just another screen you know and what what all that takes just to support that so we see

this as a big thing yes it's immature right now but the possibility of it being an economic driver for our city is something really important we're focusing on yeah I mean one of the things I sort of thinking as well was the fact that it's a digital product so to speak and if you look at generally just in social media the issues there with an immunity where you know people seem to get away with things and I think they tend to maybe flow into that area as well because I'm not playing by my real name I've got some sort of game a name as such and can say certain things I think probably what the guys mentioned about this idea of education is really really a good point and the fact that you know Nancy if you talk about ecosystem is how that could develop as such to sort of offer thank you for animation school has the first eSports curriculum in Canada but it's about management its managing tournaments and teams so that's that's something that that's up and coming and our University of British Columbia is

looking at giving scholarships for for people coming out of the league's like the college leagues so again the education is can be really important but for us also is educating parents I mean they still think it's a bad thing and I was at South by last year talking about some of the possibilities and I had a parent say you know my kid plays for four hours how do I get him to stop but I said well he was doing surgery simulation for four hours would you have a problem with that I mean these are the skills that they're learning hand-eye coordination they're learning team building they're learning strategy like there's all these things that are going it's just a different tool but the stigma attached to games with parents is it's just really something we have to work on you know I think I think if we you know we talked about the fact that time they have you know to do these things in compared to other sports where you know actually other sports where we have more time on their hands the young young people and they probably got more money if you're a professional footballer because you can't train all day at football you've got to have downtime so they probably play video games what's with these

sports is a lot of time screen time spent there in training such so I think they do need to have that extra outlet one of the things that maybe is the balance of not not their work life but if we look at the gender balance with the sports is the fact that you know if we I think some of the slides up there earlier was showing that the audience is you know probably only some of the higher cases they had some good numbers there were 30 percent female but generally 15-20 percent female do you think if we if the balance was changed a bit they could actually improve behavior in crude performance and also for brands and things like that normally endemic brands help the whole industry so I want to take this one well I think one of the things that I like most about eSports is or competitive gaming is there are no barriers to entry if you want to be a professional athlete well you weight class determines what

who you can spar with or who you can play against your sex determines what team you can be on these are part of institutional sport and and I don't think that's going to go away although I think there are some people pushing that boundary today the suit so I think that's that's good and I would take it even further that one sex or gender shouldn't determine whether you can play on a team or not I'll play in a competition and I like and that's good about eSports but also disability as well you know that we have there's a huge spectrum today of different abilities across all of us and there is no power eSports competition you know there is no you know you're not defined by physical traits which is again a really beautiful thing at any sports that is makes it so inclusive and so good you could be in a wheelchair and there's no reason why you cannot play top level kind of strike so I see that

as a great opportunity for for all of us within the eSports space Peter if you had any like done anything to try and encourage female gamers or have they been knocking on the door to so to speak to say look I wanna have a go yeah we get a lot of those weakest I think where we are we get a weekly basis we get players reaching out from like all over the place all the world and and and and I think you know if we get one greatest everyday request every day for life for my team we get probably one raters from a female team per week and and I think Patel encounter striking have we've been looking in it because I mean I'm the commercial guy right so I'm looking into like okay I can go to some of the known and AMEX start creating more content for it and because of this and that and this is that but what doesn't support the idea yet is that that you know beer you're one of the rare animals out there in this level that be the bootstrap we never raised money

we are profitable right very little we put everything back to growth but they don't have trillions of dollars in cash right so the ecosystem doesn't necessarily support it yet right so where I am with counter-strike III need and with other guys if we expand to something I need to be able to build global success pretty quickly right so so the ecosystem doesn't necessarily yet support maybe that idea but eventually I hundred percent want to go there you know I have hundred percent when I go there we did we did some experiments with the with streamers like female streamers you know traveling with our team at the Dreamhack and speed and the most popular content we ever did a popular female streamer who's actually focusing on doing like lot of stuff with cars and motorcycles great Channel right and really good content though and she plays a lot of counter-strike so then she was more like entertaining like dry more entertaining content out of the tournament you know when the guys did

meet and create stuff with some of our sponsors you know how to dinner and it's really like people like super happy about it because they saw something like it's it's it's more diverse right the question she would ask are completely different questions that you know typically are asked so you know definitely you know we need to go there and we are more than happy to support them but at the same time there's there's the financial side of things right that you know you need to make sure that you can kind of support that all the way yeah most I think so the gun so we do have a female team 11 we have a Rainbow six female team who are third in Europe I would say us as we've Mick said that is hard financially so for a game like that which is smaller and actual especially in the female scene as much smaller it's actually quite cheap games be in but at the same time it allows us to promote female esports peasant on the issue I think in California collective game the UK talent isn't there on the top stage so as a

tier 2 3 organization when we're looking at you know getting brands involved to get sponsorships to actually get some money back you we look at UK talent because we look at UK budgets for example from Earth from a sponsor so there isn't UK talent F counter-strike and we are on the lookout for it if it's there take it kind of thing we'll look it up in terms of females in the industry actually working I think it's is it's very good we have three out of six of our employees or female and I think that actually in terms of working and in that side of industry is perfect it's just case of perfect but in case of the the pro scene is possibly lacking and their support from tournament organizers I think actually is a big one in getting female events on the main stage and there are something like Dreamhack there's 100k Penta fairly recently but I was born in the one a couple of years the Copenhagen games for

example was a $10,000 event but there's no support in terms of getting your became the team there so actually first place prizes like $5,000 and it costs as much that much to get the team there all that money goes to play as well because unlike traditional sports so that is the big issue in terms of professional side things that's why we have a team and that's why we are trying to do more this year so so in North America we're finding I mean the barrier to entry is there but they're often using gender-neutral tags because the minute their opponents or other team members find out they're female they there's a backlash to that still in the game industry so that's something I think we need to kind of work on and then it kind of makes them drop off I can take my one of my youngest daughter used to play games and got targeted and then stopped

playing so it happens happening there is a little bit of issues with that but hopefully we can kind of as they show that there as they get better and they find out they're females times you get like you know why don't you go shopping we saw have some work to do but I'm hoping that you know the people who can can move forward and we can can I to that really quickly as as a national body I think we have a good opportunity from a neutral perspective at the British ebooks Association to do something positive here and we launched the women in eSports campaign last year and we've got some really exciting plans we had some very very big brands reach out to us after that and big people in eSports and elsewhere and we want to do more than just because some people have criticized that's just saying oh it's just a promotional campaign you're just interviewing people yes we are but watch this place because we've got some good interest in plans in that area and you know I interviewed Frankie Ward one of the top eSports hosts from Britain the other week and we had a good chat about

inspiring younger girls in this space we need role models and things like that it's not easy but I'll echo what Peter says we have some really good female talent it might not be at the plane level but certainly how's production staff coaches and things like that there's a lot of good female talent and that gets brushed aside because big broadcasters and media see tournaments as I was in are women on the stage but actually there's a lot just some good backstage crew and other staff as well so yeah just release it in Electronic Arts also has regular girls in gaming sessions at their campus and then Coover I think well the industry in videogames as such as well in this whole areas looking at role models are saying that's one of the things to look to try and do is to find the the females out there who would be good role models to encourage younger girls to sort of continue not not be disheartened and I think was interesting that Ford here in the UK the first movie to eSports was the sponsor female team which is like for them to even move into eSports would have been big but do female team is even a bigger

sort of you know jump but maybe it's more economical for them as such well I think that's also this is a whole part of a maturity as far as an industry goes because when you look at other sports and you look at at the moment this the the huge rise in female football as such and but it's taken years and it's the same I think the same situation potentially here the is the industry doing enough not necessary on the female side but are they sort of avenues and areas tor if there are issues for to be addressed or is it really self-regulated by it as say for an example a team says to one of their players if you do this you you're off or are there sort of sanctions in in areas or was at the league's competitions are they do we need governing bodies to sort of crack the whip so to speak so it was that just in like a contractual co-player so how does the industry you know stop won't say any of the issues of an example was saying that when girls would you know going to enter

into a tournament if they were known to be female they'd be bullied and things like that so they for they go gender-neutral it shouldn't the industry be doing something there should definitely be a regulatory body you know where that lives and who's in charge of it is it would be the question but the difference here is is that these are dependent on a game not a sport so often the game makers are running the rules right now and making the decisions they're just these huge huge influential you know I mean that's the issues and it's the owner of the IP yeah I would argue on the you know what would this governing body do that you theorized I don't outside of rules technicalities and transfer windows and more direct sport like analogies you know ultimately the the game publishers are going above and beyond today to remove any sort of toxicity is that I think the word that is used around you know what you can and cannot say to other players you know a

lot of games now you can't even talk to another player anymore right you have to choose preset commands of how to communicate so the barriers to being to this toxic gameplay are being eradicated very very quickly and as I give Blizzard credit for it in World of Warcraft the Alliance and the Horde weren't able to speak the same language so if you killed someone or did something horrible to another player you couldn't then grief them for it which you know I grew up with as you can imagine that with red hair and freckles I got a lot of grief online you know publishers are doing a going above and beyond to stop that behavior so I don't understand want to regulate I don't think it's just about behavior it's about how the publishers are treating them contract wise like there's a whole bunch of other things legalities and their brand and then like that like there should be regulations somewhere foundational for for how even they're treated not just

about their own behavior okay yeah and you know the cspp a launched last week you've got you know Wes Besser IeSF you know there's probably more regulatory bodies in eSports and there are games in eSports at the moment and because a lot of people are trying to do that the problem falls down none of those regulatory bodies have any stake in the intellectual property and it's all owned by the game publishers and the game publishers the last thing they want to be doing is running governing bodies for example I'm sorry I can't remember who it was but one player made a comment about supporting what was happening in Hong Kong and his money was taken away like that's the kind of rules I'm talking absolute they the publishers just can't decide there has to be a body but the problem is who is that body that's gonna be something it's gonna evolve yeah yeah in that case that was always gonna happen because when you have large Chinese investors you you

know whoever pays the piper calls the tune as that as the saying goes PR risk analysis yeah I mean that's the thing is it comes down in some extent as you're saying the IP owners looking at the commercial sense rather necessarily a holistic issue and and those sort of things however I will move it on a little bit to the more exciting economic side of things but just to finish on it I do know that ESO which is the American Software Association Yuki and history which is a European bodies and some of the others have done a code of conduct which all the publishers are signed up to as far as for eSports and you know coconuts are only as good as actually you know doing something about it so there are some sort of things and actions happening there because it's everyone's benefit for the industry to be looked as being honest a mature in the way it behaves how long does that take us to get done took a long time and the fact that most of the publishers the ones that were complaining about wanting

to have to here to a code of conduct don't don't get that anyway we're talking about the the monocyte suppliers and that I want to look more the industry because there has been you know you go back in your look some people are sort of comparing eSports to the dot-com boom because yes suddenly come from you know want to say no we're suddenly big money where do you think the industry is as such as far as a maturity goes and if you looked at a path is that sort of halfway to maturity is that only at the beginning what are the opportunities and where where could it go I think that's a really good question and it's it's difficult to answer we've seen a lot of investment come out of North America and other territories over the past five years or so big sports investors getting involved big sports clubs getting involved with these sports you know buying teams buying brands and so on and I think it was a few months ago I can't member who it was now but it was one of those investors that came out and said you

know this hasn't been a good investment for me and people should be careful and I think it depends on it depends on so many factors who the investor is which team you're buying or which tournament you're back in or which tournament you're setting up yourself it's really hard to say I'd like I from my personal view following this was very closely the past four five or six years or so I think we're coming out of that gold rush and beginning sort of phase now and we're starting to mature maybe entering that I don't know I'd like to say over the next twenty ten or twenty years or so we're really going to start to mature but it's still finding his feet at the moment I think it was Mark Cuban who had had some investors serious you know God I wouldn't put my money there Hollywood in the early 1900s when there was a few people couldn't control a couple of things that I think are really important is the

opportunities within eSports so for example monstercat is an electronic music producer who had their axe marshmallow during a halftime game at fortnight and how many millions of people watched it was it it was like some redonkulous number but was that tens of millions of people watching so there's opportunity in in entertainment and things like that also we're seeing one of our one of our companies is in Switzerland now talking about the ski game that he's doing in sports so the Olympic Olympics may bring eSports into it in sport form so they're talking about having an eSports tournament for skiing and then parlaying that into some other things so there's we're we're so new we're so new right now that the opportunities are gonna be huge but we don't know exactly what each of them are gonna look like and I you know like from the like organizational perspective like I don't know how much Peter thinks about

like the pop oh my I don't think about it I think for me is something that I wanted to build something that is sustainable even if I get a little bit lower response or income next year if something bad happens I think that's the sustainability because what I know when I trust that the audience is just growing like we used to be still scratching the surface it's still the early adopters as well who are super engaged they spent a lot of money buying the blind American stuff but the mainstream is only about to come so the audience book just grow and and that's where I trust you know even if next year would be worse because valuations are crazy I you know I need to look beyond right and I need to make I need to build something which just you know I need to stay afloat right you know I probably gonna have more fans tomorrow than today right regardless and you just need to make kind of you know be there I think it's it's kind of slightly wrong to say we're at the early stage of eSports because we're not I don't think counts try sitting around for 20 years remember 15 years ago when I was playing it you know to watch a

match although I had to get an IP address I'd have to go load the game up I'd put it into console watch it the graphics are terrible you know and it was actually worse than when you're playing it because the the goat TV as well was talking else was bad quality it compares the actual game as well and now obviously with twitch is helped massively it's just becoming more mainstream obviously but I don't actually think with that early in our stage and we're early in the stage of mainstream I agree with that but actually the eSports community's been here 20 years it's not anything early in that census sorry I was just saying early as economic yes and as makeup saying like in terms of bubble I think I think it's good that we're taking two different avenues in terms of franchising and non franchising I personally think the non franchise really isn't much better the franchising route for me is a risk in terms of grassroots and actually having you know anyone can get their the part of the program especially in terms of Rights

overwatch League for example 30 million to get slaughter it's someone buying a slide it people with the community supports don't really like someone who comes and buys it they like the I guess the people who actually like gaming and I obviously think that let's say from our organization and point all probably identify me is by bus but at the same time the the first million you know buy-in fee they're not gonna pick you're not gonna pick up an overwatch team if you're not in the competitive overwatch league because even though one team is okay maybe just slightly worse than the team's in it there's no point in picking that team up because you still got the barrier to entry is thirty million and it's just that's the problem with a franchise view is that grassroots in those games in the in legal legends in overwatch in cold call duty are dying because they're you know it's just a case of the top players or and all the bottom there's no middle ground and that is the guy's a huge issue in terms of I'm gonna give you one so little thing

to think about because we're getting close to the time and it's a bit of future gazing is to try and think about and look at what may be holding back you know I may be a bad answer but I I think it's a I think we are too quick to want this immediate kind of eSports success you know you see a lot of eSports presentation or people talk about eSports saying this is the year of UK

eSports this is the year of eSports in general this is the year that we bring in the big non-endemic brands like and it's we've been hurting with that edge for a lot and I think that people's expectations are too high yes eSport you know yes we've been doing this for 20 years my mentor and the guy who hired me Ralph and you know he's been doing this slogging this way for 20 years right and I expect that we're all going to be slogging at this for another 20 years and we're never gonna feel that this sort of rainbow has come where eSports is is the thing it's just gonna creep up on us so to me I just it's about to sound like a hippie I apologize but it's about the journey and just it if it happens it happens if it doesn't you know that's not going to happen that's why I think like putting the right infrastructure and is really important I mean you know overwatch and for tonight that's the Superbowl of eSports but

there's this whole other nugget there that we can capitalize on the people who want to I remember I mean we used to go to play video games in an arcade when I grew up we didn't have consoles and showing how old I am but and then we moved into our houses and then we you know had a whole other way of spending our money and then you know anyway I think for eSports like I see you know we have a small purpose-built stadium there's only like 300 people and it's full and it's making money we have something called the home key which is a like the we work of games now so people that community can come and you can bring your teams and you can have some fun and you can have social stuff so that I think there's just you know there's the big massive money that we can talk about with the big names but there's a whole other crop coming up that can still be fun engaging have kids and and people you know listening to music and going into a VR game and can I just say really quickly I think one of the things that might hold eSports back a little bit is the perceptions people

still have I know people who've spoken to brands very close to getting to signing big deals and things like that and then out there's someone on the board that's like doesn't like gaming and convinces the rest of the board now don't do that and but they generally don't know about it they don't know about the benefits in the next 20-30 years each books will be incredibly normalized because of people that have grown up with it will be middle a bike will be one of those people on the board that you know he's grown up with it yeah I'm seeing that change as well those perceptions change slowly and that's a good comment because I mean this was 2019 first year in Finland I forgot to mention fulfil my demons in Finland so this 19 was the first year and 18 to 26 year old male in Finland follows more eSports than any any other sports so that was the first year before it was like third or fourth like for last two years like slowly coming up but now you see those guys and and and and in five five years were what these guys will be the decision my decision makers

you know and the brands and different companies etc etc etc and and and this also man we had it first p2p company some sponsor last year I mean it's so easy to do stuff with because you were branched like you know better that's endemic on on a net compete to be company the angle for these guys was that they want to start now profiling them as a new digital agency big one so they want to start profiling then as an employee for employers I see you know like gamer friends like you know having their customers already X cameras doing decisions for investing millions of building digital services and and and that kind of this these singles right but probably it's gonna take more time than everybody expected right well we've mostly running out of time they're so appreciative there was no snoring from the audience so that was that was pretty good and our panel I think waiting for a bit of fisticuffs awhile there but to know they did calm down so that was pretty good

those Canadians everybody pretty feisty aren't they but I'd like to thank Mika spike rapido Don and Nancy for giving some insight from different areas I think it's really interesting that some of the things the guys talked about as far as you know looking for education and not just with the players and then you know with Nancy with Vancouver and it's really interesting at this conference the number of Canadian government agencies here looking so they must obviously think there's something in videogames and eSports that's worth investing in I haven't seen too many of our government people here learning about it anyway but they only want to cut ribbons when it's sort of actually half and so no thank you very much for the panel [Music]