Kalen Chock on Being Successful as a Freelance Artist - Episode 2 | Game Dev Unchained Archive

[Music] you ladies and gentlemen boys and girls old young new crusty whatever you are however you identify yourself welcome back to game dev Unchained podcast the number one podcast from learning the truth behind what goes on in the video game industry as always I am the host with the most Larry Charles I got my best friend my co-host my Road Dogg my right-hand man mr. Brandon Pham hello what's up everybody this is the podcast where every week our production value goes a little bit higher so welcome to this episode today why don't we introduce what we have to so we went to college with this guy he's a extraordinary artist incredible dancer it's got a great smile and he's got that year-round tan it's our homeboy killer Chuck are you

doing candle and what's going on thank you guys for having me that's a great intro I think I want to use that for any time I do anything in front of a crowd yeah if I can have that I'm taking it no you sound sorry that's yeah just plug this in at the show why you got it man yeah we appreciate you said some time aside to do this really Smith I'm very happy to be a part of something that's gonna be any pretty big I assume I know whenever you guys do whenever you guys pretty reminded something that is probably gonna be super amazing so to be out at the forefront super dad you like this look wait he called our podcast small he was like I assumed it was gonna be big one day you go small now but it's it's getting big like again you guys you guys are smart you guys it's like mochi dorm so are you guys put your mind to something I know it's like it should definitely invest in it because well yeah we appreciate that you can recognize talent so we're ready thankful oh you'll recognize real so mister

Braniff in life if you don't mind can you tell the listeners why exactly that we're bringing caleb chop to the podcast today cuz there may be one or two people out there who actually already don't know about this young man well Kaylin shock is that a amazing environment concept artist we started college together but he was able to circumvent like a lot of the things that a lot of our listeners are very interested in he was able to create a job for himself work for himself work outside of the industry while being in ministry and being able to create indie projects while sustaining steady income with teaching with all these side projects that he's doing and calling it as it is I assume he's working at tops two hours every week and the rest of time he's enjoying life and I yeah nobody plays as much soccer is this dude just still be fully employed some soccer I will see this going to willy nilly of everything

Kalin Jacque is the real freelance like we had that running joke back in the day where you saw people on when I am a vice president of freelance Association I just got a I just got a promotion yeah my one-year anniversary for for doing Kalin chalk company freelancing no but Kayla's real thing when we say freelance he actually is securing his art contracts he actually is doing work and getting paid for fully doing concepts doing paintings doing teaching doing tutorials I mean what else is there for you that's untapped Kaylin I think the last thing I guess for me is to probably long ago if you guys don't know I'm working on my own video game with a friend and I'm trying to get that out probably or probably a summer of next year and and I think when that comes out I think we'll definitely turn a lot of heads so I'm excited to get that out so I get in what's the name of the game well it's called a leech

that's li e GE I'm making it look that's actually a two-man team it's me and a guy named John Murray the game company is called coda games and it's a tactical RPG he was working on I met him through kind of the art community kind of like on and off and he he was working in finance really really weird working in finance in New York for like years and years making really good money but he wasn't very happy so for like three years he'd made a prototype for a game and people were like man this game's tight like you should you should put it on Kickstarter so he asked for like I think like $15,000 end up getting like 85 and then one of the tears was like if he got past 60 he would hire artists to like to redo all the art because it's not an artist he's a programmer and then he found me because I used to always do fan art of like my favorite RPGs and so it just turned out that I did a fan art I've one of his favorite RPGs so then he hit me up and was like we should work together and so we're working together for the past two years actually we're at

we're at Boston's big which is an indie game indie game conference and me actually won best visuals mmm so all the artwork and the art side of the city yeah yeah you won but I love like I honestly prize when Johnny's like give me one best visuals I was like how the art isn't even that it's awesome it's not even finished nor do I think it's good so that was like good to know but um we got greenlit on Steam and Sony actually wants us pretty badly for the Vita because they they see the potential and a lot of keyboard is waiting for the game to come out so I think it's going to be great not because of the art which is because of the story in the design and so most games that fail isn't because of the art you know arts always awesome it's usually the design how the game plays how it flows and I think we focused a lot of time on that instead of the art so I have a good feeling it's gonna be successful not because of pretty art but because of like it's a

solid game play that's what we're all about so that's um what they haven't done yet and I to be able to put my my stamp on RPG games because I grew up playing those as a kid so I'd like to be able to you know do something like that if I can yeah sure it's very interesting that you got this contact through your love of a mutual appreciation and he found your fan art I'm not gonna lie I used to joke on people who just did like fan art email all the time but why would you say your art sticks out you know in a particular way where somebody would come to you with a credible job offer like this um I think anything is just passion I don't think it even has to be good art I just think it just has to be like passionate because I think there are people that do fan art and but like they're doing it because it's popular you know what I mean like they're doing because this is hot right now so I'm gonna do a picture of it like to me when I was doing this kind of drawings I don't do a lot of fan art anyway I just did like one painting and it's like as a joke and it's just like oh this is my favorite character from this game Wow

right it's like it's like that kind of thing and I think like because he knew that I was a I was a genuine a fan of like those kind of RPG games like he got that from from the arc that I was doing and he was like I want to hire this guy as opposed someone that's like I'm not a fan of it so I'm not gonna so I'm gonna do fan art anyway and try to get some likes it would be like me doing like fan art of blizzard and like dota and like League of Legends like I don't play and I don't play PC games at all so like I don't I don't know about those are games I don't know about them I know all the artists that work on him like it's awesome but for me to try to like do art for that like it would come off as like kind of just like silly because it's like I don't understand it sure yeah I think it's the passion like he could tell that I was like but I really like those kind of games and we can go on and talk about it for hours and he's like okay he's legit fan he's not like a person that's like I just need some some likes on Facebook and [ __ ] you you've humbled me with that answer man because

like I said I used to laugh but I get him in I get it yeah talk about the passion for passionate people people will find you like like-minded people that are passionate about the same thing will usually find you I think that's what that's how it kind of came to be he was like oh you like RPGs I was like dude I love JRPGs so a tactical ones I'm like dude I love him he's like alright we should work together because he have plenty of people that he was gonna work with too that I think were better artist than me I would in my opinion but I think it was because I was passionate about that he knew that like when [ __ ] gets real that I want to be down to like yes he gets free QA and design out of the deal as well right like if you have experience with those game genres first as someone else who just turns out art he's the only person he can really bounce off of where with you you have experience you have familiarity he can say hey Kahlan what do you think about this we think about that has he ever asked you for your input on some of the features of the game oh yeah we've talked about it before and it's it's easier because I

can reference things from certain games that we both have played you know and be like hey member this part like we should do it like that and it's like okay I mean that is that'd be the equivalent of like hiring someone that like wants to work at like riot right like you can't hire me to work there why I don't I don't play it I don't play League of Legends right but if you hire someone that's like a good artist and plays League of Legends they're gonna know how to create characters that are gonna fit in the game you know and instead of just creating cool art they're gonna be like oh this could work like this and this and this right you get more out of it just it's like emotionally invested that and you just got the padded compatibility you guys probably hung out he probably talked to your cool guy and not everyone that is an amazing artist has a good personality that you would want to work with so yeah I think that above everything else was this guy's not serial killing on skype a few times and Google hangout and yeah we definitely got along that's one thing that you really can't teach this kind of a personality I always joke with like my friend AJ is they eat a little

personality mentorship perfect speech people how to not be weird but my conclusion of that is it sports people that are usually socially awkward did not play sports that's my theory it's probably wrong and stupid but this is my theory on it and I'm to this day I think that I'm right in my head so far so good because I think most of my contacts in like most my opportunities have come from me playing basketball and me playing soccer with people that also work in the industry and then like just being cool with people like if if you can be cool someone on the basketball court like they'll probably be like oh you looking for work and then they just be like okay I push name in the system like it's like stuff like that it's really really like it's actually it's actually how I got a hanaway Abra hanwen yeah and I got him an art test through someone I played basketball with that at the EI basketball court well like we were playing basketball and like we never talked are about whatsoever we played basketball for for a long time and then he's like oh we've

been looking for a new artist like you know anyone and I was like check out this guy's one of my old students like he's graduating he's pretty cool he's like oh yeah I ran our test right and it's just like it had I'd not like played basketball all right you know what I mean it's like one of those things where like if you can learn to be cool someone and not like expect anything and when they do want something like if you do want to get something from them like they're more likely to give it to you as opposed it as me meeting you right now I'm doing like hey Larry give me a job all right just be like oh like I need something from you if friends first let's see if I like you as a person that can talk about this well that's a huge point too cuz like you know let's let's rewind back to GDC when we were all students right and everyone had different approaches if you imagine being a professional if someone comes up to you hey man oh you work at Konami and your answer is like yeah worker Konami he's like can you get me a job like you what do I do that's not bother your second question to me is can I get you a job I'm gonna put my neck

out on the line to bring in somebody who his second thing that he said to me was can you get me a job yeah yeah I don't I really don't understand that actually happened a couple of times when I used to work out crazy pics with my very first job is like the same people that wouldn't talk to me like ever would then start talking to me because I had a job and they just went hey what's up man like how's it going like how's work how's this and then as soon as I get laid off they're just they're they're no longer doing found and I just I just never got that that mentality of like you know you want to hang out with me you don't want to hang out with me and it's like it shouldn't be because of my status that's one of the things I have and I was actually working at like ILM the ILM for that short period of time months of months but like as soon as that happened like my my LinkedIn and like my Facebook was blowing up but well that would never [ __ ] with me ever and I was just like it was the weirdest thing so I was like my art didn't suddenly just get super good overnight it's been

kind of like this mediocre this entire time so why are you like hey Kayla what's up man haven't talked to you for a while but hey dude I saw someone I'm just like dude you've never talked to me you've never reached out to me you've never give a [ __ ] like like do you think that I'm that dumb that I don't know like what yeah dude it's just it's just like it's one of things I didn't like about working at a big studio it's just like the amount of dick writing that happens yeah like even I feel bad when I know someone had a big studio and they're looking for something I'm like hey you know anyone but like you and then I'm like I feel so dirty and I'm like but remember like okay we're friends like I do talk this guy so it's like but like at least like at least ask me how my families do it at least like kind of take me on a date first yeah boy he trying [ __ ] me at least like I just take me out like buy me a drink like I don't know it's it's a weird day so LinkedIn effect I think everybody yeah we were just talking about that out anyone would just come out of the bushes

anytime that status change yeah like when I was there they had just announced the Star Wars yeah and they're like oh yeah I really work on the new Star Wars films and I was there at the time and then all of a sudden like always message istic to working on Star Wars I heard them look up someone looking for someone looking for someone I was just like I don't know dude I guess it's like anyway that they were like I'm pretty sure like I don't think anyone ever goes and they go hey I'm looking for a job they're like oh [ __ ] you are people totally hire you like if someone wants you to go coming cuz you know if industry is like no one you know you never like email someone and be like hey I'm looking for a job they're like oh [ __ ] I forgot we are looking to hire someone will hire you they want you to look at you don't push you about it there well you know what now is our opportunity to tell all those cheap-ass friends that try to use that that basic level Association as report to get them a freaking job stop doing that [ __ ]

well don't thing is like be nice to everyone even if you think like unless you know for a fact they're gonna be a complete [ __ ] loser like just be nice to everyone because you never know when that person might be pissed into power and that may sound kind of like [ __ ] up and that may sound kind of like likes conniving like whatever but like you should not say don't already but that that shouldn't be the only reason we're nice to someone but you should be kind of someone because that person may be the person recommending you a job later on and so I think I think that's what the case is so like like just just be just be kind I think be kind and be like be far just be genuine like if you wanna hang out with someone checking my people well I check no people all time on Facebook people that I think that are my friends I'm like these are generally my friends and I never asked for anything just check it hey dude what's going on let me hang out like I think that's what it's about it's be genuine it's like yeah just do as Emmerich says just build up that ass armor he is like Allen Emmerich one of

the best games that he's ever had and working on my own game now like all of the thought he was telling me like all come together yeah early rings true I'm like [ __ ] should have paid more attention in that class but regardless like his stories the way he taught like very inspiring it's the sad that that the school doesn't recognize that and they they let him go for whatever reason so III just feel bad for the future students that won't get to have them because he's definitely a big a big impact in my in my career and working in games so Allen Emmerich for listener that dude like you know thanks for all the inspiration man like dope yeah a second that he is the whole reason why I stayed in design and I believe that I love it so much was just cuz he was one of the first people to introduce game design to me you know yeah he's passionate he's passionate and like you could tell he really loved it and I think as teachers you don't see that very often some nowadays that's like no I really I really but I really wish him the best I hope it lands on his feet up you find something I hope someone will grab him up quickly

and in and you know give him what he deserves which is you know his own class you know Pam what he deserves because the guys the doing it for a while he's he's got too much knowledge so if they were to fire anyway I'm not sure why they fired why they let him go I was like there's any guy that could not let go it probably would be that deep but who knows well it's a let's go back to the school like like what decided like what kind of path like a lot of people are listening right now are wondering how how they go about freelancing it's just something we've always thought about but from there was really just no place to go if you want to start freelancing right so how did you get into that how did you sustain it what tips do you have for someone who is interested in doing a little bit of supplemental income to do free months I think freelance is kind of an interesting thing to be tip to be fair most of my freelance comes through being

affiliated with robot pencil and that and that in turn becomes being affiliated with AJ and AJ Anthony Jones if for those you don't know shut up like right he's just like the Kobe Bryant LeBron James right character creature ah right so everyone knows who he is and he's like or I guess the Michael Jordan and I'm the Scottie Pippen right I'm just director like it's been a part of it so like it's it's easy for me to get my 20 points Michael Jordan just passing me the ball when he gets too busy right it's so in that regard it he's opened a lot of doors for me but I still have to have the skills to make that shot you know to make those points when he gives me the ball and so most of it has come through him and through him but definitely we better definitely work together at a lot of things and I think the biggest thing was was being a part of the community freelance is hard because no one ever posts about it I don't think I've never applied for a

free lunch job almost all freelance comes to me if you via email they just go hey I heard sound your work I like it I want to hire you and I think if you're active member in the community and you're constantly kind of being at the forefront of what's happening whether you're posting on Facebook Instagram going to events meeting people like it's a lot of networking as long as keeping your work updated and I think all those things combined together helps get your name out there and then people wanting people want want you to give to get work and so I would say to get your name out there a lot of that has to do with where you work originally so AJ for an example was popular it got very very popular when we started working at Sony Santa Monica but a lot of people practice one in Santa Monica but why is AJ so famous well I feel like AJ like leveraged his his status at working such a big company working on a very big video game like God of War he then used that as a way to propel his career as like to do

workshops to teach to start doing stuff so he didn't just sit on the idea of hey I'm working at a very big company I'm just gonna sit and do nothing it was like I'm working at a big company I would now use that as a way to propel my career and build my brand so now it's not just I he's Anthony Jones working at Sony he's Anthony Jones yeah right it's like that kind of thing I try my best to do that when I was at ILM so I didn't want to be a person that's just like all these cameras at ILM it's like no he's Kalin does what he does yeah so if you want to get freelance a lot of it is just getting your name out there you can compete in contests you know be people in contests like go to all the events that are happening and then I think the biggest thing is just constantly posting work good work and putting it where people can see if you if you if you post good [ __ ] and put our people can see it people will want to hire you now how consistent that will be that really

depends but when you find good clients you can you get a hold of them you keep hold of them and then you you work with them and then you just make sure that they're always happy so that way they always want to come back to you so for me the freelance comes and comes and goes but when it comes it when it rains it pours but then I think the bigger the bigger part is just having some way or something a way to keep active when when the freelance isn't coming through I think that's a big thing too because sometimes the freelance unless you're like AJ like he's always with freelance but me not so much so I have to do other things I told my income or work on projects that will get me income in the future so sorry all right forget dead air I got this Kayla Chuck there's one thing that I've seen floating around the internet a lot a lot of my freelance friends artists kind of chime in whenever they see these but a lot of people who are looking for freelance or who are looking for art will kind of give you that okey-doke

hey we don't have budget for art but you know we can give you some exposure if you work on this project when you see that coming what's normally your response at this stage in the game for me I feel like I've worked I've enough experience where I can say I don't need that so there's two things like here's here's my theory on undoing work if I'm not gonna get paid for it it better make me super [ __ ] famous like Super Bowl were like my name is like on TV that's the thing happened of course or or the other or the alternative is that the work that I do is super lame super dumb right but I get paid a lot of money for it so it's like if I if I'm working on like Hello Hello Kitty Island Adventure right which is an example right I'm not gonna put that in my portfolio but I'd better be getting like a six-figure salary to work on that [ __ ] cuz I don't know right but if I'm not gonna get paid

that much aka my game that I'm working on with John leach right I don't get paid anything really it's like he gave me a income for the past six month for the six months after that we've just been kind of we've been working for free both of us I know that that's gonna make me very very well-known because when that game comes out and it kills it and it says art it's just gonna say Kaelin yeah and then when I go to these conventions and stuff like that because they're gonna be like oh [ __ ] you're the guy that made that game right the example was like dan paladin right from yeah fresh house of crusher's yeah everyone knows his name with God that he's the guy that made castle crashers right that's what I'm trying he I'm trying to go to that dan paladin level of like I created this awesome game by myself it was just me and then my programmer John Murray which he would be the Tom polecat some folk yeah see it's like the new dynasty it's a good example so it's like I'm not when I work on liege day today I'm not making any money off of that but I know it's an investment to my career that right name out there and

that people will be like [ __ ] like I'm in a game by himself yeah the game flops I can at least solve the assets that all I'm a hahaha so it's like there's there's like a smart business a career path behind it that yeah I do so that's my thing is like if no one cares about it I better get paid if not better it better at least push my career forward and so for people like if you're beginning artists I'd actually don't mind taking on three work because actually it to me that that's come on it's kind of like a sports analogies of a scrimmage there's like kind of like a low stakes cuz like if you [ __ ] up it's not really they can't get Maddie for free work right you can't get mad at charity right it's charity right so if you haven't if you don't have a lot of experience like doing that kind of stuff yeah do some pro bono free free work client work you can put it in your portfolio and like you have the ability to [ __ ] up so that way if you do get to those bigger companies like like yeah blizzard dogs stuff like that yeah I know you kind of like played a few games and now you know that when you

get in the game you're not gonna [ __ ] it up you would never like get take a guy like fresh off the bench and put him starting like you know what I mean like starting quarterback right and you're like hey you got a college no experience alright because starting quarterback we'll figure it out right and not play any games like he's gonna [ __ ] it up on in a pretty big way so it's like why not have preseason right scrimmage game like it doesn't count toward anything so if you [ __ ] up it doesn't doesn't affect your season there's an effective season and also that doesn't affect your reputation right it's our industry if you [ __ ] up like it can it can really it can haunt you for years you know what I mean so it's just like you don't want to be known for working out of a studio and [ __ ] up you know so that's why I feel like doing that kind of freelance like free freelance is actually a good thing when you're first starting out but I think some people do like the like that oh I won't I won't try once I'm getting paid it's like you should try whether you're getting paid or not like I'm not getting paid for leech so like

well should I not try then it's like you should you should give your all with whatever you do whatever you do you should like you should want to do it and and do it for free if you have to because you love it so much so like I think as long as there's good intent behind it it's fine but for the people that go to me like like I get it every day like someone goes on DVD me and are and they're like hey man got this project I can't pay you right now but he's like 40% of some like there or 20% and I'm like so like you can't pay me right now but you want me to do work so that you can make money and then I might get money later it's like yeah but also for sure things for sure thing and I'm like alright if it's a for-sure thing that why don't you go get funding no and then pay me to do it okay see that's that's that's the difference between why I work with John a while I'm with other people that's why I [ __ ] with John because John was like alright I don't know how to do art I don't how to do animation I don't have to write stories but I'm gonna do all these things I'm learning all I'm gonna do it all I'm gonna make up I'll make a [ __ ] game

prototype and then I'm gonna show it to an artist and be like hey I've already done all this so this is how serious I am I quit my job I got his funding all I need is for you to say yes and let's go if someone did that then I'm like alright let's do that cuz now I know you're serious like you're legit but if you're some freakin like 16 year old devianart kid that's just like yeah I take out the script and I just never want to just make my game for me so I come in there it's like like you don't know what you don't understand and so that's why I think it comes down to is like John showed that he was passionate and I had a serious so as long as people are passionate in they're serious and there's promise in the project I don't mind working pro bono for something like meaning not getting paid but when I see the artwork of the project people are coming at me with it's terrible and I'm just like do you really think that I'm gonna join you and just be like oh yeah dude I was a good thing I'll totally work for free for like 12 hours a day for you like I don't it's again that's when you know someone was not serious well they don't the

industry I'm just like yeah so now that I know you work pro bono I got this project that I've been kicking around you know I will always hear you out but I'll be with you if I don't think it's tight then we'll say no that's just the way you know like I'll give anyone a fair shot but you know it has to be within within reason and within my timeframe and like if it works out we do it but like if it's not then I would be like not dude that's wack I'll be real with you about it so like but I think that goes for anyone I mean like any any amazing company that's ever started the people probably worked pro bono you know they probably didn't get paid for it but they saw the potential and then they're like dude I'm gonna be rich so you know it's an investment like anything else there's a risk yeah the risk and reward has to be equal yeah it doesn't have to be monetary just has to be somewhat of advantage to you where you can go about it without anybody any taking this risk has to be

all around like if you're the only if I'm the only taking the risk by wasting my time and you don't get anything so for you if it doesn't work out you're like all right that I'm doing anything I didn't pay for the work correct I didn't pay for anybody so I don't have any risk it's like no you have to be in it as well you have to be in the boat with me so aka you gotta give me the money like there's a risk here as well so if you forgot you lose yeah you guys I'm gonna lose - as opposed to me being in the boat him being in the boat me to swim in like you don't I mean it's like you'll have to show that you're yet you're down for the risk as well and I think most people don't understand that simple concept and that's why did they're probably wondering like why don't people like take my projects well yeah this is a lot of people that are waiting around pretty much once they're where you're waiting you're kinda waiting for other people to do the work that you are not willing to put in and people can recognize that and yeah in the end it's just nothing's gonna be done that's the one news network what John was just because he had already created a game he did the art and like

you had it's like you learned Photoshop he's like yeah I learned I didn't want to do it but I just figured it out so I could do it you know I'm like this guy's dead like what an efficient he's like yeah whatever mission is like yeah all right we're gonna do this cuz that's now I know that if [ __ ] gets real like you're gonna make this project happen no matter what you're not gonna be like oh I can't do it so I'm a writer or oh I can't do it cuz I don't have a I don't have an animator like you're gonna get it done it's like it's one of those things where you want it you want to come to the table as like this is happening with you or without you you can either come along for the ride or not and most people come to me as like this can't happen without you so please join and you might get some money but John came to me like I'm gonna make this game regardless if you want it on it you can jump in the ship I'm already in the boat I'm already heading off I think when you come with that attitude then it's like okay this person's like it's going on without me so at this point was gonna take note on the right yeah if the boats waiting for you you can take your time but if the boat is gonna leave with or without you you got a run to make

that [ __ ] you know I mean like it yeah opportunity yeah that's the way you come at it it's very interesting that you bring all that up yeah well since we have you here we can dissect your decisions and your career moves how in the hell did your art take you to Spain cuz I want to go to Spain I can't draw for [ __ ] but if you can lay out like a path that I can take so I can get there I'm sure me and all the rest of the Watchers and listeners right now appreciate that yeah like one of the biggest things as far as like any artists they would want it's like the traveling like a lot of us would be crunching all the time but no one would have the time to go anywhere except for like two weeks so how were you able to work abroad you're vacationing and working I mean that's just one of the biggest things I admire about you that one was through AJ again now granted I'm not sorry about like aging it he does everything for you I did get him his first job so I could hold over his head for a little bit for like two seconds

and he's like by still scored 40 points like whatever being AJ are working together a crazy pixel we will probably know that infamous company it went under and we were both working on our portfolios and what happened was a dai devil store in santa monica and when that happened his name blew up right it was this like someone said Marcos was very very good at putting their artists and so one day while he's was working at Sony Santa Monica gets a call email from a guy from Spain and he's like hey you know I want to hire you come to Spain we'll hang out we'll do what we'll make a game together he's like dude I'm at Sony dude like I'm not leaving like this is like my dream dump but here are some friends that are current with me for work and if you're down I'll give you their portfolio and he was like okay sure so he gave the portfolio of me Daniel Garcia who I think is currently still working at Treyarch I think it was a Treyarch and then Edgar Cardona who works at machines owned in the Bay Area which is near me and he gave us all pepole iou's and I guess he liked them

all and he was like I want to hire all three of these guys right now to come to Spain so I was laid off and I was contacting the Bears playing playing called you didn't want to work for two and plates right and then agent gives me a colonies it's like hey man it's deep voice he goes hey I took God from Spain he wants to hired you go to Madrid he's ever giving you a call a little bit and I'm just like [ __ ] out idiot I just hung up on him right like those guys [ __ ] lying right so I got a phone call and it's just like +64 right entropy code I'm like and and I am sorry and as a guy and it's like hello this is Colin so in Spain they can't say kalyan singh kahlon just colleagues like yeah like this is a zoo so I worked for a company in Spain I want to hire you and I was like all right dude he [ __ ] put you up to this like he was a J that's like oh I do not know what you're talking about are you is that bookie and I was just like oh [ __ ] is guys [ __ ] for real so he he wanted to fly us out for

two weeks me AJ I mean me Danny Garcia and Edgar Cardona and when a flop out for two weeks check out the studio worked them for a little bit and hang out and so I was like well I'm not doing anything so at best I get a free trip to Spain for two weeks yeah so they blew us out like first-class and we worked there and actually one of my high school mates from hayatun Beach High School was living there in Madrid going to university who's going to Cal State Fullerton but he's in the study abroad program and so he found that I was there for two weeks let's hang out so during that two weeks he showed me all of Spain all of Madrid and I was like I'm gonna get used to this so it was very lucky that I had like high school friends that were already there like kind of hanging out and so showed me and I was like alright let's do this so we got back and we accepted the offer and then we had to well the hardest part was getting the work visa because that's like the most [ __ ] like I now feel for

anyone that wants to come to America that doesn't live in America like if it's hard for me to go to Spain it must be a [ __ ] to come to America yeah let's expand on that like what was that like like is it just acquiring a work visa yes so like they have a lot of laws like that they have to hire Spanish people first comic what we have right dad to prove that my skill was unique enough to like want to hire me so I had to get all this paperwork so I didn't get also how did I get like FBI like background check make sure I didn't kill anybody like all this kind of stuff now how to get it all translated in Spanish and then I had to get motorized and how to get it the documents approved at the consulate of Spain which is in the heart of LA so it's this traffic city and it may be they closed it like 12 like some random ass [ __ ] it was so dumb and so like every time we went we had like some document was arrived something wasn't official and so it took about three months I think first go and then next thing you know like it was it was a big risk actually like I was actually pretty scared cuz I was like dude can we trust

these guys are really a killed or something you don't I mean like somebody it can [ __ ] like I thought that's going to happen and I was just like but we don't have an apartment right we don't have anything like no cab is there word and some Spanish contract that they're gonna pay us and so did you did you speak Spanish at all before all this look Mexican Spanish high school but Cassiano like costs like us to know Spanish and like oh yeah that [ __ ] is like it's completely different like there's no like it's it's so different that it's like it's super hard so I had a concern at all yes it was but luckily Dani and Edgar were fluent metal speakers so they were enough to get by so I was like well I'll just stick near them and yeah I'll just figure out how to order beers and food okay and so we we moved there and then we stayed in a hostel for two weeks while we found a place and then we finally got a place and actually we actually got a really actually got a roommate where's guy named Rob who was a British guy who got

hired there too so it's pretty much all English people in one house and then we found a place and then that was that we started working there for pretty much a year which was really weird because everyone wanted to talk to me in English I wanted to learn Spanish so let's I didn't use that much baggage only when I was out in the city I actually got pretty good for a while but now I'm terrible but I need to go back so I made a lot of great friends there but ever since then like it was just travel travel travel travel so they're very big on their vacations and not overworking themselves so I got a chance to take like help different exactly all right so what is the biggest difference that you saw so like all right so I'll give you scenario right so Larry if you're crunching at sledgehammer right yeah you want to take a vacation what do you have to do first thing I have to do is go to my boss and request when I want to take the vacation put that through he would have to approve it once I got the approval then I'd have to let the team know what days

I'd be out and then I could take the vacation most likely it wouldn't be any sort of big vacation especially if it was during crunch we're talking like you know Thursday through Monday it's probably pretty cool I could probably do that yeah and so you have to do all that stuff right you got to ask for it and then what would you probably do before you left would you probably work overtime oh I would have to make sure that my work was caught up before I left and then so for that so your work wasn't caught up you couldn't go yeah you can buy the ticket but there's a chance you could buy your ticket to go to like I don't know if welcome to Puerto Rico oh there's a chance that you may not be able to go but they'd be like yo Larry me to this day yeah I actually went through some [ __ ] like that around Christmastime but I'll just I'll leave it at that some [ __ ] right but they were like okay you might be able to go right with Spain they can't do that so if it freaking freak me the [ __ ] out right so I was one one day right my girlfriend at the time

she was coming she was coming to live with me so I was like hey man I want to take her to Portugal so can I take Thursday and Monday off I'm like don't worry though I'm coming on Tuesday I'm gonna come on on Wednesday coming online like you know Monday and I'm gonna do all the work you know I'm doing this this and that isn't that and said than that you know it's gonna be quick I'll have my phone on me in case you need me and he was this like yeah sure and I was like what for really sure and he's like yeah I'm like but I'll come in earlier that I'll do the work he's like dari about it and I was like when we don't worry about it he was like well someone else do it and I'm like ECS was like yeah and then they like and then this was like three weeks before so like as the week comes up I'm like hey man just remember you know I'm going to Portugal so like I could stay later and he's like Thailand stop stop worrying about it you can go in their calendar kilo it means a relaxed you know and I'm like okay they're like like even even look the day of I'm like alright guys like I'm not gonna be here tomorrow so

like don't like don't freak out anymore just like dude shut the [ __ ] up and go and then like I just realize that's part of their culture that like you just hand them the slip you say when they're gonna be gone and then you have 20 days of vacation as soon as I look at that they go okay you now 26 damn that was it like I was like like this is [ __ ] nut I thought like I don't get fire when I came back like I had my phone on me it took me a while to get used to like my phone with Tommy I'm like what they call me you know no calls and it's just one of those things that their culture worked like it's very common to go on two weeks vacation and just be like what's cool like who's gonna do it when you're gone you're like right there they're their work ethic isn't like the greatest so like they're kind of slow in terms of like but me like pushing out things on like fast but they live long the art they are very they're very like they are and they're not stressed and the other thing that freaked me out too is that like you worked from like 8:30 to 5:30 at 5:30 everyone is gone yeah

like there's no like so again I'm so the firt like the first couple of days right I be I get 5:45 and I'm like calm let's go and I'm like I thought my fish imma finish it but like no no fidgets tomorrow man let's go and I turn around and like the office is empty Wakeham way compensatory gothic I want to close up so I can go the [ __ ] home and I'm just like oh [ __ ] and like I was like hey guys like Mike I said like hey that's gonna stay late and let's do some art talks will die about our goaded demos they're like not gonna have wine with my family all right this is the weirdest thing that is like 5:30 everyone's bounces it's like no one works overtime it's like you just work from that time like it's a job to them and and learning having that kind of that kind of release where I could just go to like travel is awesome so like I would just go on I've always been looking on flights online like Ryan Ericom just like a JetBlue of Europe and I'd be like oh [ __ ] Morocco all right they were going to Morocco I'm just giving Mike give him my two weeks and be

like hey I got one in Morocco all right so I was in like Morocco Morocco Portugal Paris like you name it the other week just I mean and then she was like don't money there could you have a car right please cheap and then you don't miss they're not big like in America were very consumerism kind of society in Spain like you just have fun just like walk around the city you know I'm doing free stuff so it's like a very different lifestyle so for me it was pure by luck but I would say a lot of times now there are plenty of there are plenty of places are looking for western style of artists but no one wants to move mm-hmm you saying that there's a lot more opportunities oh yeah yeah yeah yeah there's like there's always people looking for western-style artists this isn't like right now it was hot right now is China right like China is like always looking for people like when I went to GTC we're like I went to China I'm like no like not anymore like

if I was if I was like five years younger yeah but not anymore you know I mean there's there are people always looking for that western style of art because the way that we do art it's very unique you know compared to Korea China you know Germany so people are always looking for like people to come art direct and stuff like that but not everyone is willing to take that chance and some people is really afraid to do it and it is scary like when I did it I was like I was kind of like super scared like what doesn't work out but I've been so I came to the point where it's just like just save enough money for a plane ticket home as long as I have that like yeah it's security all you need mom isn't going anywhere I'm already living at home like okay like let's just do it and then once I did it it was probably one of the best months ever had in my life like traveling meeting other artists is meeting other cultures like yeah dude like if you want to go abroad just start applying for companies abroad make friends like I would just go to their events you know like they had that Trojan horse unicorn thing recently at

some like island like I know some like Bahamas island or something like that like go to their events and go visit like Oh business to do is go do stuff if you really want to work abroad I highly recommend it if you're young like there's a lot of a lot of great things you can learn from working abroad it's culture wise this thing you never knew about the world like it's like the world is so comfortable and Irvine but like once you go abroad to like Morocco and like other places you're just like holy [ __ ] like like I'm so small compared to like what's out here yeah your perspective is the big things done yeah like go to Morocco probably the biggest thing I ever noticed because Morocco right Muslim you know that kind of stuff right the Quran and you know what from what America portrays that to be like and then what it really is when you go there it's like it's like night and day they're like the kindest [ __ ] people ever met in my entire life right but when you see I see online it's like all this like tears [ __ ] and whatever and I'm like doing foolish [ __ ] like if

you meet people that are just like normal people they're super nice but then it's like again like I never knew that right just growing up in California all my life like you have your perspective changes and it's good it helps you in your heart so it's amazing that you get to travel the world and be creative and you know and create this art for these companies and meet all these people so that's that's a huge benefit but you know I'm assuming freelance isn't always easy can you maybe walk us through some of the challenges or difficulties in doing full-time freelance I guess the biggest challenge is probably just staying consistent that's probably the challenge that everyone faces it's just having consistent work and then finding good clients because at least when you work for a studio that's the one thing I do miss about Studios so like I go to this phase or like I want to work at a studio again and then I see that you guys are like crunching and like wake up on time and I'm like I like that but a lot of times but we're for a

studio though you're with that same art director for like you know year year in and years out so you get to get to know them so then like you know what he likes you know he doesn't like sometimes you can kind of leverage your time a little bit more and get away with [ __ ] cuz you're like well I know he's gonna like this so I can do this this this this and this but when you have like clients that you don't know very well you're working for them for the first time that that learning phase of the relationship can be kind of hard because you know how they communicate their ideas or what they mean by something as opposed to what someone else means you know like you could say more stylized and I know exactly what it means and I've known you for a while someone else could be more stylized right and then I'm like I have no idea what that means it's all context so it's a lot harder to understand context and then it's a lot harder to find good clients because freelance it's like it's like it's like a new girlfriend like everyday right and they're gonna be some friends and some crazy ass girlfriends that you don't ever want to deal with again it's like online dating right and so that's probably the hardest part and so the best thing I could say is that when you

find the good one it's like just do so well by them look at that don't ever let you go that whenever they have work they'll always give it to you and so that's that's my thing is a lot of my clients now are kind of like recurring clients that I mean I may only see them like once every six months but I know that that night time comes they're gonna give me the work over somebody else and so so if you have enough of those kind of clients like spread out throughout the year you'll always kind of have work I would say so so this kind of segues into another question that I have a lot of the things that we want to achieve with this podcast is that to help developers realize their a single point of failure having a single income even with the triple a company you're making good money but at any point it's an at-will contract I mean you're being able to let go or for any reason so the thing that you're touching upon is creating the multiple income stream like being able to touch on different

stuff but using the same skills that you've set and learned throughout your years in industry like if I'm someone who's working at a full-time job right now what would you recommend for me to dip my toes in without quitting Foley um I would say start faking her a way to leverage what you have that always scares me when people work at triple-a studios in the making all that money because it's like yeah you work there but any point in time they can let you go yes so it's weird for me when people that work at those studios that they're not either working on their portfolios a or they're not trying to like build their brand or work on their own stuff and I'm not sure what that is like to me like I just can't picture myself being 50 working for somebody like but just like I've seen people like that that are just like that old they just doing the same [ __ ] day in and day out and it's like their life isn't the pomace some dudes the palma some dudes hand who prowl does even know who he is you know at any point in time they could

be like it's just like the name like Larry said it's a name on an excel sheet like yeah that guy Larry Charles yeah well we'll fire him no no exactly we were just talking about them I mean it's like they don't give a [ __ ] about you unfortunately and so like as long as you as long ago that going in you should be fine but there's some people that don't understand that and so for any having multiple revenue streams is awesome because then I feel like I can't be taken advantage of and I feel like I always have leverage and so I always tell I always tell Brennan like it's not what you deserve it's what you have leverage to negotiate for you know and so like any point in time like you know AI or whatever company could fire me and I wouldn't what I wouldn't care because I have three other things you know like I could lose one of these things one of my jobs and it wouldn't matter I still have plenty of other things except so my revenue streams and I'm working on my own stuff to be more independent so it's like that that's the beauty of it as this like now I can demand things now I

can be more honest about things I'm not always inspired of my job I can be real about it because I don't have to worry about being like go because it's not the end of the world but some people like they don't say things because you're like oh I don't want to get let go because this is all I have but then it's almost like being a good guy with like a bunch of side chicks yes girls like I'm gonna leave you here just like fine what's your name yeah what you like all right you got like eight side pieces like I'm good right you know I mean it's like it's like that kind of mentality we're not married to be cocky but it's like you know if you are working at triple O's studio like yeah make the money and save it but just I would say like you should be already working on your own stuff like if you can but again some people don't want to do that I think that's a big thing top touch on to is not everyone wants to be like kind of a entrepreneur freelance guys some people want to just work for the same company day in day out and that's totally fine but if you're the kind of person where you want to be more independent and be more financially stable that I would say yeah like start start writing your own

scripts start doing your own columns start doing your own thing like this that's what it comes down to like for me all the stuff that I do is the ends the means my core come on [ __ ] okay so I think as long as as long as you have comic a favorite goal in mind I think you'll be fine but yeah it is this kind of scared at me that makes a little work I got big studios but like they never like your bundle and stuff or whatever that's gonna happen I think people out there could have come to me for over 12 years and they get laid off and they have no idea what to do because they've lived and you leave that company for so long and then network under on stuff and now they're struggling every day now they're out dude yeah that outdated so that's why I think the biggest thing is like all right so we are 52 minutes into the podcast and we've got some bills to pay so we're gonna take a quick commercial break drink some water do some jumping jacks stretch a little bit when we come back we're gonna bring it home with Kaylin

shock on the gamedev Unchained podcast hey guys so it's like this do you want to make video games in the video game development industry you want to work for some of the big companies or possibly even start your own well you definitely want to check out game dev unchain game industry Survival Guide it's a brand new e-book that we put out just for you it's gonna help you yourself ready or industry help yourself bro help yourself prosper definitely go check out that book it's on sale for $5.99 and amazon.com hey welcome back to being that Unchained with jock the amazing man that has done it all working abroad freelance and the one thing that we want to touch upon is your teaching career so this is something that I'm a huge supporter for people who have been working the industry a great extra revenue stream that we have is teaching like it works lots about teaching is it is really

awesome like I enjoy I don't really consider a revenue stream for me yeah I do make money off of it but I think to me teaching has always been I mean you guys you guys go to art school with me and though we are where we are now like we are what you consider successful you know what they have jobs sustainable like we can you can make a living off of what we do I would say our education could've been better I think for lack of better terms and so I feel like I knew that when I when I got into position where I knew enough and I could give back to the community I would do that and I think that everyone should do that at some point in time when you get to a position of power but of knowledge we should share that back so I think I think what I do with AJ and stuff like that I do what teaching is to me to kind of give a student a chance that I never had in terms of learning and to kind of put my

stamp on education and kind of make it better you know what I mean like like what what didn't I get at education back in the day can I give them out of people now I think that's kind of a thing I think getting paid is kind of like the bonus part of it like if I could be sustainable and not make any money and like teaching like I would totally do it like I go do for free if if I really needed to because I enjoy I enjoy giving back I think it's kind of the thing that mean AJ I think that's why our careers been so successful because we've always been cool about giving back and we never been secretive about things boy just kind of giving out the information and yeah I think teaching is awesome I think it's just a way to give back to the community and kind of just give your opinion on what you think it could be better for so one of the things that I know that you're quite famous for because I actually taught alongside you for a little while this one quote that even changed my life because I love hearing it I love how you say can you give us a little bit of detail about it kaylynn shock will tell his students that suck isn't a style that quote isn't

from me actually that quote comes from my mentor our mentor probably Mike Tracy who used to teach at the Art Institute of California Orange County Green cosas and he was a background design teacher he got me into into background design so that's like why I always kind of revere him as like my ultimate mentor at least when I was at least that a I in that terms and the reason why I saw that happen where a girl did a really bad painting and I was in the class hanging out and she was like it's my style it's my style and she's like and he was like you suck too much to have a style he was like suck isn't a style and I was like damn like that knew just kept it real right now and she was quiet it was like oh [ __ ] like yeah you're right and so I think people are just quick to make excuses and one of the biggest things that changed my life in terms of

art and the mentality I had to have what was which is what I tried to give my students now is like I don't really care about necessarily teaching like Photoshop and background design anyone can teach that at the end of the day like my job really is just to push people beyond what's expected of them like if I like my job is to push them like mentality wise had the right mentality to work hard to perseverance and not give up like that's pretty much what my job is like any idiot can teach like Photoshop but what my Tracey did to me one time is he took my painting I turned it in it was shitty painting by the way and put up on the board put up on the projector screen and he asks he asked my students to give me a grade so he asked my friend memo at the time Guillermo I was a good artist - he's like Irma give Kalin a grade right so I'm looking at Memel like this like [ __ ] you better say at least a see you know I'm give him that look like help me [Music] he's like ah think like Oh like a

b-minus c-plus and I'm like oh my man oh man right and then something he's like all right all right so then he coasts on the computer and he goes to Craig Mullins web website yeah we don't know Craig Mullins is he's like The Godfather of digital concept art right like he's like the first guy that like that did this kind of painterly thing with like Photoshop like he's like the king of like digital painting and so then he took his picture one of his paintings and then put put put it beside my painting and he said all right so give Kalin a grade now based on if this is an A and he's like I was like I was like [ __ ] it he's like like a F and he's like yeah he's like so Kalin you get an F and I was like oh [ __ ] and he's like I'm not he's like I'm not really gonna give you an F but you got a F and so as one of those things are like yeah he'll give me the C but it was like but you should know that this isn't okay

like that this isn't gonna cut it and so that was like the real should I ever heard so it was like would like without without even really saying anything he wishes pretty much like you can get by in this class but when you get out you had to compete with this guy and the prima boys said to me a nutshell he was like when you get out that's who you're competing against and that like changed it as soon as I assume that happened to me like my world got [ __ ] like I was just like oh [ __ ] like I am a fraud right and then like and then that that's when you probably when you guys probably met me is when I wasn't that angry Kalin that was just like don't [ __ ] talk to me I need to get better and if you're not gonna help me get better then I really don't have time for you like like [ __ ] the world like I had to do this and that's the mentality that had to have it was like [ __ ] everybody like anyone it's someone's better than me like [ __ ] that like I didn't get better than that person and then that changed my mentality and it kind of made

me like kind of cynical and a little bit like angry a little bit but like I kind of needed that competitive nature and I think he brought that out of me this kind of like darker side of like feelings that I have and I think it's what I needed though and so suck isn't a style like that's that's like what my mantras actually what I do now is I actually put on people's work and I put it up on the board and I line it up I line it up from like best to worst and then I just say like this is the best this is the worst and I put their names underneath it and I just be like all right Larry you're first all right Brent and you're and last and then people like [ __ ] what if you turn your homework and get the [ __ ] out so yeah ii Oh stylist not me it's my Tracy like he's the man ever had definitely shout out to Mike Tracy another one of the like Allen Emmerich Mike Tracy one of the the juggernauts and I was happy to learn under at the Art Institute of Orange County California yeah well mister kaelin shocked we have cleared an hour

on the podcast we normally go for one hour and you are such a good sport to come take time out of your schedule to meet with us it's 1:30 4:00 in the morning the podcast listeners don't know that but we do so I would actually want to give you some time if there's anything that you're working on anything that you want to plug I know you talked about your game if you want to get you know 30 more seconds to talk about that or you know something that you're excited about the floor is yours man you sat with us for an hour let it rip dude anything you want to talk about I think you guys sat with me for an hour so thank you for listening to me talk for an hour but um just thank you guys for listening definitely listen to anything that uh that Brennan and Larry have to say I've done this guy's for a while another [ __ ] and like if they say it to be true it's just listen to these guys like these guys are successful I honestly I like Larry's like my idol like he's like that black guy that I wish I was he's that guy yeah I wish I

had Brennan's cast my cousins a lot no just listen to these guys honestly I like the fact that you wrote a book you know like I didn't know that I'm gonna buy your book which is weird knowing that knowing that knowing that you can give it to you for free probably but if you want to copy I was just glad so like I'm gonna fight like legit me I'm like dude I'm gonna buy this I'm gonna read it so I bet you this [ __ ] golden ear like that's like I respect your opinion so yeah listen to these guys and you know I'll post up you know I'll give you my link to my work and our mentorship that we teach and stuff like that you guys are interested please listen just listen to these guys and I guarantee if you listen to them you will be successful all right mr. Brenner fans we have any last questions a request before we wrap it up yeah thank you for listening and listen healing about listening to us he has

really good advice don't have to get edgy on the podcast oh yeah AJ anybody man but definitely AJ I want to hear from Michael Jordan you know we interview Scottie Pippen scouting your all-star even without Jordan you make the all-star team but if we can get Jordan on here to more than happy love you AJ love you cannon so proud of what you guys are doing out there for all the students you just want you to hear that for me personally you're doing amazing stuff I follow all your robot pencil updates and I'm coming out to a mixer because I'm this close I got no excuse maybe faith for everything I'm just gonna shuffle up before educated a bunch of developers and we're looking exactly what you're doing right now good let me the drink do it man just two people programmer an excuse I'm gonna hang up

on your muffins and get some sleep so Kailyn thanks again Brandon thanks again you gentlemen enjoy yourselves I'm gonna go edit this podcast so we can throw it up guys later man see ya peace okay ladies and gentlemen thank you so much for listening to game def unchain that is this week's episode and we are out are out are out are