Jason Smith: How He Sold 100,000 Copies Of His Game (w/ Overwhelmingly Positive Reviews) | Ep. #056

Okay. So, how exactly do you not only make games that bring in an actual full-time salary, but also, and and this is the important question, how do you make indie games that are, I don't know, actually good, they get really good reviews on Steam? It's one thing to make money. It's another thing to make games that get good reviews on Steam. My guest for this podcast, his name is Jason Smith. He's the creator of Cultic, which received overwhelmingly positive reviews on Steam, and is also, I think I it's safe to say it's revered as a cult classic at this point. Jason knows all about not only how to make money full-time as a game developer, but also how to get good reviews. [music] And Jason ultimately followed up Cultic Chapter 1 with Chapter 2, which recently launched to very positive reviews on Steam. But he was very honest with me, the launch was not without its hiccups. So Jason and I discussed this. We also discuss his painful and long journey of years of creating the cultic universe, design mistakes that he learned during this development process that [music]

you as a game developer need to avoid. We also talk about why teaching the player how to play your game is so vital. It's so important, but it's also very expensive. We talk about production mistakes he wished he avoided, AI development, and so much more. and stick around to the end of this podcast because Jason is going to crack open Cultic inside of Unity. And I'll be honest, my mind was blown. So, you're building up, building up, building up. And this I could tell when you were working on chapter 2, you it was almost like you were more passionate about chapter 2 than chapter 1. It seemed like you guys you guys went so hardcore with this thing.
It's massive game and you launched it. So, tell me about the launch. Tell me how it went. All the good stuff.
Sure. So yeah, chapter 2 took um you know, a little under two years. So it actually took a little less time than chapter 1 despite the fact that it was it wound up being almost twice as long. Um so I brought so chapter 1 like like we mentioned was completely solo. Um aside from like like QA and and whatnot.

Like I did I did everything for that one. And it was a lot of learning and a lot of refactoring. And by the end of it, you know, like 3D Realms wasn't pressuring me to release it, but I had kind of committed to I want it out on this day and I really didn't want to miss that. So I was working bananas hours at the end, like just insane. And there was a lot of burnout and I didn't want that to happen again for chapter 2. Um, and so around the time I started working on chapter 2, like in April of 2024, was the big like 3D Realms layoffs. Um, and Nick was formerly the 3D Realms community manager. Um, and him and I was funny. So, he also lives in Kansas. Um, and we met through 3D Realms. So, like we we
Whoa, that's so weird.
Yeah. Like he lives like like just under two hours from me. Um, and which which in Kansas is is a short drive, mind you. That's a very that's a very short drive.
Yeah. That's how long it gets takes to get to grocery store, right? You know.
Yeah. Yeah. Two hours. It's like, "Yeah,

I'll come see you today. That's fine." [laughter] Um, but so like we I we met through 3D Realms, which is a Danish company, and and we didn't meet in person until Gamescom, which was in Germany. And so it was so funny. And so now Nick and I are are great great friends now. We we're actually going to see him and his wife um this weekend, but so he was unfortunately affected by the layoffs. Um, and he had recently released Maro, which is a uh like a fan campaign for Blood um the Monolith uh build engine shooter. And um I remember playing through Marrow and kind of being like like I think I think Nick gets it. So when I was playing it, I just like immediately got this sense that that Nick really understood Cultix's level design because and this is something that like Build Engine games in general were quite good at. But um there's a lot it's just like a lot of realistic feeling spaces, you know, like they Nick was really good at building livedin realistically scaled areas. And that's a big hallmark of cultic map design is

that it mostly takes place in like real spaces, you know, not like big like quake cathedrals, not like big brutalist uh hellscapes. It's just all like normal places.
Normal places are hard to do, man. Like with Twisted Tower with me and Filipe, it was so hard. You said the exact the correct word, which is they're properly scaled. Like it feels like it's a real place. It's so hard to do it. And every little area requires the precise kind of set dressing to make it feel like it actually has a purpose. Um, and that's so hard to do. Anyway, keep going.
What's even cooler than like Nick's designs being right up my alley was that he's so he's so damn efficient at it. Like he he'll literally like I'm I'm sitting there struggling to make these relatively small maps for chapter one because map blockouts I'm just I'm not good at them. My brain is always focused on like the final result. So, I want to know like when I start building a map, I'm already doing like final set dressing from the get-go because I just want to know what it's going to look

like at the end. Um, whereas Nick will just like sit down in the in the uh the build editor and just like go nuts. And in like, you know, in an hour he's got like this really impressive looking blockout and that stuff takes me forever to do. So, I was like, I mean, him and I were already already pretty good friends by then. And I was like, since he had just gotten laid off, I was like, "Do you want to help me with chapter two?"
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, and and we just, you know, we got along, we get along super well. Um, and working together is great because there's, you know, so the first map I had him work on was the mall because I was like laying out the mall, like it just it's layout, like where where are the stores going to go? How do you get from here to here? I there were set pieces that I knew I wanted there, but how to connect them all. I was just kind of spinning my tires. And so I like I had him start working on a layout for that while I was kind of polishing up um the first map still. And yeah, and he just he just gets it. Like he's really good at um at just like creating blockouts. Um kind of like gray box. Well, it's orange boxing for us because my default texture he was

using is orange, but but yeah. So it's it's gray boxing and then just having someone to bounce ideas off of. Um you know, so like he would he can show me this and he's like, "Yeah, well I thought the player would start here and then kind of go here and you pick this up and then I and then you know I can be like, "Oh, what if you know when they walk into this room like they see this and it's oh yeah." And so it's it's it was so nice bouncing off of each other, which of course is, you know, probably typical of any team any team
Exactly.
uh working on a game project, but you know, it's uh my experience with that is more so the horror stories of publishers kind of like taking the reigns and making a lot of those executive decisions, which I, you know, don't want to happen. So anyway,
so yeah, so we worked on chapter 2 and because I had Nick on board and he is so good at just like getting maps off the ground, um we just like Oldtown for example, which is the sixth map in chapter 2 was originally the third map. And then like we started working on this third map which is going to be Old Town. And it was going to be kind of like this like sunken old like swamp town. And I

was like, well, we need let's have I want to have like a little a little prelude to Swamp to it. So you don't just walk directly into Swamp Town. Like I want something before it. And all of the before it, you know, it was like, oh, what if we had like this little like area outside of the mall, like this parking lot and and blah blah blah. And then that, you know, turned into this huge boss fight. And then that turned into all this stuff that I was like, "Okay, well, this is already 20 minutes of gameplay." [laughter] So gosh, maybe this should be its own maybe this should be its own map. And then we were like, "Oh, well, it would be cool if like leading into Oldtown, you had to like come through like this little farmstead and it had like a little slaughter house and then the slaughter house got bigger and bigger and bigger until it was its own map and then Yeah. So it so it wound up being map six because it's just like
when I'm not just spinning my tires being frustrated on level design um getting a map off the ground. Uh it's so much easier to just like iterate on stuff. Yeah. And u and so chapter 2 wound up being almost eight hours long.
Jason.
And that's and that's without really

like any any filler, you know? That's that's without like well some people might argue that some of the maps are big enough to be filler but um just like uh physically large enough but so it it just wound up being huge and you know it was originally going to be 10 maps and then it wound up getting up to 13 and then we combined two of them so it was back down to 12.
How many like biomes are there like um like themed areas?
Quite a few. So, one of the biggest complaints with chapter 1 was was map variety, which um I never really agreed with because it's like each map is a a completely different area, but they are all connected by generally like rural woodsy areas. Um but people still like didn't think they were varied enough. Um not the majority of players, but you know, of those that had complaints, that was probably the biggest one. So we, you know, like, so chapter two, I would say almost every map is about as unique as you can get without going like Mario 64, like ice world, lava world, you know, stuff like that. So, you know, you go

from like a map one is all these urban environments crawling through like blown up buildings and stuff like that. And then map two is a shopping mall and map three is a swamp and map four is this big industrial slaughterhouse. And, you know, map five is this old rural farm setting. And then you know and it just kind of keeps on going like that. So um the variety was was a lot greater this time around which meant a lot more art assets had to be created.
Yeah.
Um
were you creating those or or was that Nick?
Yeah. So I so the basically the division of labor um was when I had an idea for a map or if we kind of spoke together and and and brainstormed an idea for a map um I would set him loose on laying it out. um kind of just getting like the gray box put together. Um and then whenever he felt like he was at a good stopping point with it, he would send it to me. I would kind of walk through it. Um we would brainstorm ways to add more gameplay. You know, like maybe the first draft he sent me only takes like 20

minutes to run through. So it's like, okay, this layout is great. These set pieces are great, but it's really short. So like we brainstorm like, well, what if we, you know, add something here, add something there? And then it just kind of goes back and forth like that until we feel like the the design is good, the scale is good, the set pieces are good, and then he would hand it back to me and I would do all of the texturing and create all of the assets and set up all the encounters while he moved on to the next the next map to lay out. And so it wound up being like kind of half and half in terms of which maps I designed and which ones he designed. And some of them we both worked on them. Um like the fairgrounds is probably the best example of that. Um, and probably the one where you can feel our different design styles a lot because the um, probably the most criticized part of the game is the first half of Fairgrounds, which is a big open sprawling Renaissance fair, like a Christmas themed Renaissance fair that of course is taken over by the cult. And um, and that's like a completely wide open like you've got four objectives you need to tackle and you can just kind of

do them in whatever order. And then at the end of that map, the second half, you go into like this big like touristy castle that is a much tighter, more labyrinthian classic style area. And that Nick laid out.
Is this it right here?
Yeah. So this So this is all and so you can really feel like the difference between our our map styles because I do much more like open-ended stuff like in Blender. I do a lot of mine in Blender. Um and then Nick works more with brushes. um doing more like classic um CSG level design.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um and and that worked out really well. Um so it was it was really nice getting to getting to and I learned a lot from him just looking at the way he does things and the way that he designs like maps that can loop back on themselves and um it was it was really great getting to work with him on that.
So anyway, let's talk about launch here, dude. Like uh how did Chapter 2's launch go for you
leading up to launch? Um, I mean, things looked really, really, really good. Wish

list numbers were were strong, but of course I didn't really know. You never really know what to expect regardless of wish list numbers, but even more so when you're launching a DLC, which I've never done before. So, this is an like instead of this being a completely separate game, a lot of the improvements that came with chapter 2, like expansions to the color palette, um, completely scrapping and redoing the enemy pathf finding.
Did you really?
Yeah. Yeah.
Did you retroactively update chapter one? Right. So, that was kind of the deal was like all of these all of these improvements are things that would objectively help chapter 1 as well. Um like there were a ton of optimizations and um like a brand new menu system that was a lot more um like horizontal real estate friendly so that like localization would actually be possible. Um and all of that was stuff that I wanted to be in chapter 1 as well. Um, and so I decided I kind of I wanted it to be, you know, an expansion to chapter 1 still rather than a completely separate application where all of any changes I make would have to be ported

to a second Unity project and then ex, you know, and then built and then uploaded to Steam. And um, and so it was uh, like wish list numbers were strong for chapter 1. Like I think I was sitting at maybe 210,000 at the time that chapter 2 launched. And by comparison, I think chapter 1 launched with like 70,000. So, we're looking at like like three times the wish list. But, of course, a lot of these are people who have had the game wishlisted for for like two three years at this point. Well, the Chris Sakowsky's theory is I don't know if you know Chris Sakowski, but Chris Sakowski he's a market indie marketer and he he claims that the that wish lists don't get cold, which I don't know how that makes any sense at all, but that he's like a data guy and he looked at the data
and he was like
they get cold maybe after a month but barely and then after that it flat lines
in terms of the the conversion rate of a wish list. That's what I mean by getting cold, you know?
Right. Right.
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if a two sitting on your having a wish list

for a chapter two for two years.
I don't know if that's a problem, you know.
Yeah. Well, like the importance of I mean like the or I guess rather the usefulness of a wish list in that you basically have captured data of being able to reach out to those people because I mean like if you put the game on sale for 20% or more, anybody who has a wishlisted gets a notification about it and and an email depending on um I don't know what the limits on that are but and so it's like I would agree that you know like every time I've put cultic on sale it always results in about the same amount of units and So it and so yeah, like like you said that that data seems to almost always be be useful. Um but but then like you know, Chapter 2's store page finally went live like two weeks before it launched and it and it racked up maybe 20,000 wish list before launch. And so it's kind of like, huh, like I wonder which of these numbers is going to be more because you imagine a lot of people um probably don't need to wishlist it because if you're if they're

a big enough like fan or community member for the first game, they probably just know when it's coming out. maybe they don't they don't need that reminder or you know they're probably waiting on on a sale and like chapter 2 didn't launch with a discount and so like I'm sure a lot of those folks are wait which is fine you know I get that and so you're like you're kind of you're looking at this 210,000 number
and kind of wondering like I wonder you know like I wonder what they're waiting for on that and is it a discount is it the folks that were waiting for chapter 2 to come out so they would have the full experience.
Sure.
And and so you're kind of going into launch wondering like which of those numbers is going to ring more true. Well, that's definitely a that's definitely a con. Speaking of like pros and cons, the the con of a DLC is that you don't really know. Are these wish lists for chapter 2 or they for chapter 1?
The 210,000 figure is for chapter 1. I think chapter 2 got to around 20,000 before launch, but I only had the store page up for about two weeks.
See, that's the problem. It's like, how do you know the value of a wish list related to a DLC, right? And so that's

one of the cons of doing the DLC. Did you ever have like a back and forth with 3D Realms or with Nick about like maybe we need to do Cultic 2? Not like not recently and not and not ever as a um like a maybe we need to course correct. I think it was I mean the last time we probably even discussed it with 3D Realms would have been probably before chapter 1 came out and that was you know like if there was going to be a chapter 2 at all which until probably until the month that chapter 1 launched I had no idea cuz it was like that's kind of that's why chapter 1 was was a short cheap game with kind of like a cliffhangery ending but otherwise it was it was content complete you know like all the weapons were there all the enemies were there it was polished it had a start middle and end it was like if the sucks. If it flops, then I won't be able to afford to do gamedev anymore. And so, I didn't want to be on the on the hook for a bunch more,
you know, a bunch more content. Um, but

then, you know, around the time around like October, you know, right before Chapter 1 launched, the wish list numbers were pretty strong.
And so, around that time is when I think we committed like, okay, no, we'll do like I'll do a follow-up. I don't know how big it'll be, but I'll do I'll do a second chapter and it'll just be a DLC because I because I don't I didn't want to like reinvent the whole game. Like I wasn't gonna like make it 3D. I wasn't going to dramatically change the art style.
3D
like uh like full 3D mesh 3D models. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um which if you know if it had gone that direction then it would have been a sequel like a separate game entirely. But it
Where the heck is chapter 2 on the page, dude? in that tiny little content for this game window right there right below your cursor.
This?
Yep.
That's ridiculous.
Yep.
What is there a better way to do this? Can you do it like right here? Like if you're a big fat image here
if you're if you're a cool if you're a cool uh bigger developer publisher who Steam will do custom packages for you. I

think you can get flags for it. Um, and and I'm sure and so that that's kind of why there's a the complete edition bundle is there because that's a bigger like, oh, there's more than one way to buy this.
I mean, I wonder, you see, this is where like you and I are differ because I I'm thinking about the marketing all the time.
Mhm.
I wonder if you could do a big old fat GIF here that says chapter 2 available now. Um, like you're doing here. Of course, that's a little grubby, isn't it? But
yeah, it's I think part of that because you know there was also the discussion of like do we leave chapter 1 as a um as a $10 purchase and have chapter 2 as a DLC. So yeah, to your question of whether there was ever much talk of making it a separate application. Um not really. The bigger conversation was what format do we launch the DLC in? And one of the big questions on that was, do we leave Cultic chapter 1 as a $10 purchase and have chapter 2 as a completely separate thing? Do you increase the base

price of the game to $20 and then just pack chapter 2 in? Do you add chapter 2 as a DLC, but you remove the ability to buy just chapter 1? And like I think one of the strengths of Cultic has always been that it is a a very accessible, inexpensive game to get into. So, like even if you don't want to play chapter 2 and you just pick up chapter one, it's not like it's not like Resident Evil Revelations chapter 1 where it's like you're only getting a sixth of the game. You're only getting, you know, like two hours of gameplay and then, you know, like next time on Resident Evil Revelations kind of deal. Um, it's still it's still
it's still a full experience. And so, like you can buy chapter 1 for 10 bucks, eight bucks on sale, whatever. you can play it and then if you're satisfied with what you got out of the game then like there's not really a whole lot of need to continue playing it, you know, like it's kind of like like I don't have a lot of time for playing games and so like a six-hour game I can beat in like two sittings is a lot more appealing to me than than a 20our one that you know

I'll probably drop at some point. Uh, and so, and so that was kind of the thought of just like leaving it as a separate deal that like
I think you kind of had to, man, like looking at the way you presented chapter one, it's it's basically saying the next game that comes out has to be chapter 2. It cannot be Cultic 2.
Mhm.
Because then people are going to say, "What the heck?"
Yeah.
You know, for you kind of set yourself up for that, which I don't think is a mistake. I don't know. I It's But you did set yourself up for that just with this language right here. you kind of are you're basically promising chapter two. So,
and it was very tricky the whole time because like Steam doesn't really support episodic releases. Um, and and this has been and I we can we can shift into this topic now if you want of just of just the launch model because it has been something that has has confused a lot of people um and has kind of which which is fine like that doing an episodic release isn't really normal. um

and like the boomer shooter scene that you know just kind of this this genre that um is around cultic. A lot of them did the model of launching at $20 or $25
with with with one episode out and then anybody who buys it gets all the new ones for free. Yeah. Um, but like I mentioned before, I didn't really want to go that direction because if Chapter 1 didn't sell well enough for me to continue paying my bills, then I wouldn't have been able to keep working on I would have had to go back to, you know, my my old job or some other kind of full-time gig.
Um, and so I, you know, I didn't really want to commit to that. And but it's it's just it's tough because Steam doesn't really support episodic releases. Um, they don't really have any any method for it aside from just base game plus DLC, which you can do. It's just the messaging on it is is tough. And um
well, also DLC is a uh I don't know if it's a universally accepted definition because
sometimes a DLC is just junk, you know?

Sometimes it's little add-ons and then other times like for you.
That's why I love you so much. I really do, man. I I I love how pure and unadulterated your your business model is. So, we basically got a eight hour game that's 10 bucks, right?
Mhm.
Um, and then we've also got Cultic Chapter 1, which is how many hours?
Uh, like three to five, depending on how you play it.
Let's just say four.
Okay.
And that's a $10 game. So, we've got what, eight plus four tw ah hour handcrafted game that's just rock solid gameplay, story, and visuals. Essentially, it's 20 bucks.
That's amazing. Like that is such a steal. That is such a rock solid steel. Whereas the stealing goes in the opposite direction lately for double A, AAA, and also some indies where it's like $20 for like nothing. Which makes

me wonder why people uh for for chapter 2 aren't giving it 97% like chapter 1 got. You know, they're getting a a bang for their buck. I'm confused. So there there's a few there's a few reasons for it. Um so the the biggest one and this and this actually affected chapter 1's score more than chapter 2's was when chapter 2 launched there was a a a very a very small minority of folks who had been under the impression this entire time that chapter 2 would be free. Um, which I have never I have never said like when when chapter 1 launched way back in in 2022, the store page and the the the FAQ on the board both said that Chapter 2 would be a paid DLC. Every time I have ever talked about it, I have said it would be paid. You know, like every time I've ever answered that question on Steam, on Twitter, on YouTube, wherever, I have always said it would be paid. And and I get it. You know, like some people aren't super tuned into that stuff. They, you know, they probably don't follow me. they don't, you know, that's

fine. And so I understand being out of the loop on it or being surprised like, "Oh, I thought this was going to be free." But some people got really mad about it. Like, and so there was like a little like mini review bomb of chapter 1 when chapter 2 came out of people being like like, "Oh, the dev's a liar, greedy, blah blah blah blah." And it's like I can't stop you from feeling that way, but like did they like if I ever get accused of something on like Reddit, I still feel guilty even though I know I'm not wrong. Did you feel guilt or upset upset by that?
Well, upset. Yes. Like it's it's definitely like a really insulting thing to say like um because like like tell you what like you go download Unity, you spend two years of your life making an eight hour long game. You give it to me for free and I'll give you chapter 2 for free. Like I feel that [laughter] seems like a fair trade. Like like I said, I get the
I know, man. I know. I I I get it. I get it, too. But for me, it's like okay, it's kind of like Twitter where it's like you wouldn't talk to someone on

Twitter the way you do on Twitter if you were in in real life,
right?
Like if I was if I if I saw a random person on the street and they had an opinion, I wouldn't just berate them publicly. I would just keep my mouth shut. Mhm.
I know you personally and I know you have integrity and I know how hard you work and how much you care about your games. Like seriously, I'm not like blowing smoke up your butt. I'm serious. I know you very well. And when you when I see the care you put into Chapter 2 and then people are saying it should be free, that's like mindblowing to me because in real life, if they met you if they met you at like Gamescom or something at a booth, they'd go, "Yeah, I get it. I understand why you're charging for Chapter 2. You're working two years of your life. You have a team of two full-time workers. This is your livelihood.
Of course, it's going to be $10.
Yeah.
Now, if someone was playing chapter one and let's say they played for 20 minutes, they don't know what they got. They don't know that they got a 4-hour

game for 10 bucks. So, maybe they thought that chapter 1 was 30 minutes long or an hour long
just by the the naming of the game. Mhm.
And so maybe they jumped into chapter 2 thinking, well, the first one wasn't very long and now this one he's charging for when in reality what they're getting is they're getting what was it a 12-hour game
for 20 bucks, which is incredible, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah. It was it's it's definitely like like I said, it the the confusion is understandable because the release model is weird. Um, when you're a solo dev, basically working through your own savings, you have to make some decisions on release models because like I can't I can't work on Cultic for 4 years and then release it. Like I have to do I have to release something sooner than that or I'm going to not have electricity
early. That's right. And you can't do early access because it's a linear first-person shooter.
Right. Well, and a lot of people there was a lot, and this has been going on since chapter 1 launched, but um you know, a lot of some of those review bombs um were like, I can't believe this

early access game is charging for the second chapter. It's like it's never been in early access. Like, you can go look at the page right now. There's no early access banner. You can look at reviews from day one. They don't have the early access badge. And like there's there's this big misunderstanding I think of of like what early access is, which again is also understandable because early access is used in ways it shouldn't be um a lot of the time and there's not and there's not a lot of moderation for that. Like you can go to the public Steamworks page about early access and you can read about it and it is very clear what it's designed for and it's you know it's designed for games that are planning to launch in in a beta or alpha state
incomplete and that have content road maps that intend to kind of develop along with the community and build the game with players kind of getting into it on the ground floor. And Cultic Chapter 1 wasn't that. It was a complete game that had all content there and and it was polished and like it was ready to go and it was just going to have more content in the future which is not

uncommon. Like I mean literally like just you know like just last year like Shadow of the Euro came out or was that this year? Time has no meaning. Shadow of the Tree came out within the last year as a as a DLC expansion for Elden Ring and it's basically a brand new game. you know, it's
it's an entire game worth of content. But like
nobody nobody had a problem with that because, you know, it's just like it's this is the same thing. It's just a content expansion. Yeah.
And and I and like like I said again again again, I'll reiterate. I I get the confusion. The boomer shooter community has has so many different release models because you're working with indies. you know, they we don't we don't have the luxury a lot of times of getting to work on a game for for 5 years until all the content we ever want um is ready to go. And so like like I get I get the confusion, but what I what I don't what I won't what I won't entertain is this idea that like I was lying to everybody because it's like I have I have been very public with this information and some people were very understanding of

that. um when I would be like, "Yeah, yeah, no, like here's like here's a laundry list of URLs where I was like, "Yep." And they're like, "Oh, I didn't know that." Okay. And and and that was the end of it. But but yeah, some people were really really mad about it. And it's like it's it's it's $10. Like it'll it'll be okay. So yeah, so the first part of it was like some people like bought Chapter 2, played five minutes of it to get to the minimum threshold to leave a negative review being mad about the price and then refunding it. So that was that was part of it. Um, and the other two parts were more tangible. Um, the so the other two big complaints were um navigation and map size. Like chapter 1's maps are for the most part
like 20 minute affairs um relatively short and pretty linear like you know it's well there might be some encounters where you can you can go left or right get low ground high ground on this fight but otherwise like it's all like A to B A to B. And so for for folks that were coming to Cultic from the retro shooter, boomer shooter genre, from from like

from from Dusk, from from Blood, from Duke Nukem, etc., that is what they were there for. Like that was the experience that they wanted. And so Chapter 2's shift to these larger levels um was was offputting to some people. And so that was out the gate was was an issue that folks had. Um and some of that's just going to be like a taste thing and there's not really much I can do about it. But part of that problem is like navigation and like getting lost and not just getting lost in like a signposting way of like I have no idea where to go next. But when the map is long enough that it takes you 40 minutes to an hour to beat some some of it's just like what what have I already done? What was I doing? Like just remembering where you were going or like what items you had picked up.
Um and that and that I understood which is what you're looking at here. Yeah. Uh, I immediately started working on an auto map, which people asked for a little bit here and there at chapter one because chapter one, some of the maps, while being relatively linear, could be a little bit labyrinthian. Um, like

especially like the crypts, the catacombs area, but I never really thought chapter 1 needed it. Plus, auto maps kind of scared me because they're a lot of work. You know, when you're doing something like that, it's a lot of a lot of manually mapping stuff out, and I didn't really want to do that. And I didn't think it would be an issue with chapter 2. Obviously, I I can't be the one to tell that because I, you know, Nick and I designed the map, so we know them. But like QA didn't really have any trouble, which was about eight people. So it's, you know, it's a small sample size for sure. Um, and
that's wild, Jason. Look at this. [laughter]
Yeah, it's nuts.
What's crazy is that in your brain, you know every corner of this map,
right? And you even even when you try and assume like you try and convince yourself because I'm going through this right now where you you're trying to convince yourself, okay, players will not have my level of understanding of this map,
right?
You're always underestimating how dumb the player is. Um it's just the way it is. And the reason why is because they

don't know that this is blank space over here.
Mhm.
They don't know this is blank space. So all these empty areas in your mind, you're like, "Okay, I know those are blank, but they see like let's say a blocked off door or something, I don't know, or like a maybe it looks like maybe something they could get to, like a rooftop." In their head, they're going to sort of mark this abstractly as like a maybe. This is a maybe location that they can get to. I guess my point is is that players have no clue how expansive or how small a map is, so they're going to assume everything is everything,
right?
Yeah. Well, and like and like QA there there were maps that QA did have trouble with like like the swamp for example, um the third map and that that map used to be like the swamp segment used to be just like massively wide open. So now it has these big like um like these big clusters of tree. They're basically like 2D walls of trees that you can't walk past and those are used to kind of break the map up and delete a whole bunch of

negative space that had nothing going on. And then it used to be like you got to the swamp and it was like, "Okay, have fun." Like you can go do whatever. But there's certain areas that are completely blocked off until you go do one particular thing. And the QA were, you know, they were like just running off and looking at all of this stuff they're not able to access and trying to figure out how to like jump over things and and so like there were changes made there to really streamline that. Um, but in terms of like just like getting lost and not knowing where to go, I think it was a combination of like some folks are just directionally they just they just have better like like memory and spatial reasoning and some folks do get lost but they enjoy the exploration so it's not like it's not frustrating the second they get lost.
Yeah, but I love getting lost. It's one of my favorite parts of games. I love getting
lost.
I'm I'm the same way. Um but some people aren't. And so once you get beyond your QA pool, it started to become obvious really quickly that
you know what I saw as maybe players will go the wrong direction and get

lost, but they'll find their way pretty soon because it's not, you know, there's not that many ways to go. But there are players who the first time they the first time they hit that wall of like, oh, I'm not sure where to go next, they just get super frustrated. And a lot of that was leading to Alt F4, negative review, uninstall. Um, which you know, like exploring is part of Cultic, but it's not supposed to be the difficult part. You know, like getting lost, getting finding your way isn't meant to be difficult. So, I was just like, "Okay, well, you know what? I can do an auto map." Um, I had I had an idea to basically like barf the game's nav mesh out into Blender. [laughter] And and because then it's because that's because that's what you want to represent. All you Yeah. Like all you care about are the places the player can walk. Um, and so just like I barfed the nav mesh data out and it wasn't too much work to clean it up um to get rid of like you know engones and and stray vertices and whatnot. And then you know I messed around with a little bit of vertex painting to paint like where you have and haven't walked. And I was like I

think in like a couple of weeks I could have this entire thing done. And that should clear up this problem. like yes, the maps are still large and the people who don't like the larger maps still aren't going to like them, but the people who want to like the larger maps but are just lost, this will be a huge help. And so, yeah, I spent a couple of weeks putting that together. Um, and so, and so that was that was the second big.
Is that done, Jason?
It is out on the beta branch right now gathering feedback. Um, and then once I'm done with um this bone rooms thing I'm working on, I'm going to go back and and try to get it out on the main branch.
Of course, nothing's ever really done with you. You're you're always going to be cleaning up the map. It's gonna This is going to look totally different in a year. It's going to be like uh
gorgeous.
You know, it's funny. I Dude, you're so smart because last week I sent you a screenshot of the map system I was working on for Twisted Tower,
and the first thing you said was, "Is this necessary?" Like, "Do do you need this?" And I was like, "Oh, Jason."
Well, I haven't played I haven't played Twisted Tower since the demo, so like that's my only experience of it. I know,

but your your your suspicions are probably correct because I beta tested this week.
Mhm.
I'm sorry, last week. And um everyone was didn't even use it.
Really?
There was a what they wanted.
It It was Flashlight 2.0. [laughter]
That's right. That's right. And we got rid of the flashlight. I've gotten rid of pretty much everything in that game and re redone it all. But what I found, and I I'm curious if this is helpful for you, what players need is a reminder. Okay. For me, I'll speak for me. What they need is a reminder of what they're doing.
So like, and I I often wonder about Bioshock because with Bioshock, and the reason I bring up Bioshock is Twisted to Tower is very similar to Bioshock.
With Bioshock, you've got that little arrow at the top of your screen at all times,
right?
It's like go here. And I often wonder, why not instead have a little button where you press H or M or something and it just flashes on the screen like generally what you're supposed to do. like generally like find the battery

pack in the mansion, you know, go to the the the casino to find the key. So, I'm curious about with you, is it that they're getting lost in the map or they're getting confused as to what to do?
Uh, mostly mostly the latter. And I I think mostly I don't want to speak for for everybody. I I think it's mostly the latter. the maps are large like especially like swamp um it's very easy to get turned around and and so the map just by virtue of marking where you have and haven't been is a big help with that but I think it's I think it's almost more of just like remembering what you have done and what you still need to do when the map is 40 minutes to an hour long which again that's something that's really I like I can't really gauge that when I'm working on the game because like I I know where everything is I know what I'm supposed to be doing and and QA didn't really struggle with it. Again, small sample size, so clearly that wasn't a good indicator. Um, and so I

was like, yeah, it should be fine. And then, you know, these, you know, the all these negative reviews start rolling in of people just being like, I have no idea where to go. I don't remember what I'm doing. I don't remember where this key goes. And it's like, yeah, okay, I'll add a map. Like, that's not a big deal. And the biggest thing with the map was showing where you have and haven't been. So, at a glance, you can be like, oh, I still need to go explore over there. That's a place I haven't been yet. And B, whenever you whenever you jiggle a door handle that's locked, it it makes a little marker on the map for it so that when you get a key, it's like, where do I put this? What hole do I put this?
Well, that might be a problem, though. Devil's advocate here. What if they don't jiggle the the handle? What if they just see it?
Well, then they should still have a nice dark blob around that door where they haven't explored yet.
What if they just walk towards it and they know it's locked? Is it Is there an indication that it's locked?
Not Not until you mess with it. like it just gives you a check prompt either way. Um, but that that's an interesting that's actually an interesting point. So, one of the and this was kind of um
cuz there was definitely like a discussion internally about do I go

straight for an auto map or do I try to adjust like signposting more? Like do do you go do you lean more towards yellow paint, you know? And and so there is a lot of signposting in the game already. like the map that people struggle the most with fairgrounds has literal signposting of like actual signs and maps pointing around. And some of the folks that I talked to that were really upset with that map, some of them didn't even realize those were there. Um, and so it's like I I don't want to I don't want to lean so heavily into yellow paint that it destroys kind of the immersion and the atmosphere, especially because there's still going to be folks who just don't notice them. like you it's it's easy to just miss something and uh like it doesn't matter if I put a sign that says hey go this way because if if you as a player are looking at something else or there's just a lot going on or you know you happen to to kite a bunch of cultists from a different fight over to where that sign is so you're distracted when the sign shows up and you just don't see it then you're in the same boat. Um, and so an example that in in the penultimate map,

the bunker, there's a there's a big fight in a in a big like cult chapel. And after that fight, you get a key. And on your way into that area, there's this locked door and and it's like a big iron bar door. And behind it is a big spiral staircase that descends downward out of sight. And that door is locked. And you get the key for that door right after this big chapel fight. And there were not a ton, but a surprising number of players that completely missed that door. Even though like you walk right by it, when you're in the room, it's there's there's a locked door. There's there's a locked set of double doors in front of you. And then there is that door. And the double doors open when you approach them, which kind of like kicks off the fight. And then when you're leaving, you have to walk by that locked door again. You know, it's got like torches around it. It's like a big iron thing. You can you can see through the bars. You can see there's a staircase down. And like players were just like they just didn't didn't see it. And so they would leave that area and then go wander around the bunker for an hour

wondering where the heck to go. Um and that just I never thought that would be a problem, you know? It's just cuz like it's in in my mind as the level designer. It's like no, it's it's like this big locked gate like you would immediately see it and click on it. And um and so stuff like that I don't really know. Like I could I could signpost it more with like there could be a bunch of big flashing items right behind the gate to remind you to go there or you know you could put a whole bunch of like signage around it or or some kind of environmental cues like a big like blood splatter that smears under the door. But you're kind of just maybe that will help five of those players see it, but you're still going to have these other players that um are wanting to go back and check out something else or they've got a different a different backtracking secret they want to go get. And at that point, it's like, okay, that's when the map is going to be. So, cuz the bunker is huge. It it is a massive massive map. And so, having an auto map where you can just pull it up and you just look for that dark blue splotch. It's like, oh crap, I never went in there. And then and that that just that made way more

sense to me than trying to guess at what signposting was going to help people. Well, you know, it's it's almost like you're it's you've you're touch you're when you venture into a new genre or you get a little too close to a new genre.
Mhm.
You kind of have to start bringing in the mechanics of that new genre just by necessity.
It sounds like you're you're touching Metroid Vadas a little bit, a tiny bit,
which this, by the way, this looks so good. Jason,
the bunker was fun. The bunker was a fun. Yeah, this is the bunker or part of the bunker here.
Yeah. I'm not spoiling anything here, but um
dude, this is so good. Yeah. So, like you ventured into that new genre and this I think we talked about this either in one of our meetings or in a previous podcast where you were basically like
it's not just adding a map. There's so much more to to adding a map or it's not it's it's not as simple as make the map

bigger. The moment you make a map bigger, all of a sudden you're introducing a new genre and you got to teach new stuff. You got to create a map. You got to create all these different callouts and and new mechanics and UI elements just to just just to make the new map um manageable for the player. So like the feature creep is a real problem when not necessarily it's creating the feature itself.
It's all of the scaffolding that supports that feature
for sure. makes it something that the player can actually experience and enjoy.
Um,
so that's probably that's probably the that like that third the third big contributor to like chapter 2's less less positive reception was just that chapter like chapter 1 had the like main stays of like survival horror, you know, like there was like this ammo economy there. There was a focus on like resource management. Um, there was a focus on horror, but all of those things were kind of dialed back because I I

wasn't really confident enough in pushing the game too far in that direction because the majority of Cultic's like fan base at the time was from the retro shooter scene because, you know, just because of like um whether it's folks who came there from Blood or because they're 3D Realms fans, like there was there was a big expectation that Cultic would be a a a boomer shooter at its core. Um, and so I tried to really play lightly with those elements. So like the horror segments were pretty well spaced out, pretty short and pretty mild. Um, the ammo economy stuff was kind of more of like a like a skill expression thing where like you can have a crazy amount of ammo if you use these tools, but if you choose to ignore them entirely, you'll just probably be low on ammo a lot, but you'll still be able to make it through. And chapter 2, like chapter 1 obviously got great reception, like way better than I was expecting. And that's beca, you know, and it was very largely accessible. So people who came to chapter 1 from survival horror games or

from horror games in general found something that they could appreciate. Folks who came there from the indie scene in general found something they could click with. Folks who came there from the boomer shooter scene found something they could click with. Um, but the the longerstanding like cultic community has really clicked with the horror elements and really clicked with like the larger of the maps like like Asylum Grounds and the ones that let you explore more. Um, those the parts of the cultic community that are most active and have stuck around the most um were really really digging those parts of the game, the parts of the game that I had chosen to kind of like to hold off on. And so with chapter 2, I really wanted to to lean into them more. Um, and so, you know, chapter 2 has like bigger, more open-ended maps that encourage more exploration. There's a bigger lean on the ammo economy where you have enemies that you can kill them whatever way you want, but there's definitely much more efficient ways to do it that don't involve wasting tons of ammo on them.

Um, and so, and then the horror segments, there's a lot more horror. Um, and it's still not like Five Nights at Freddy's jump scare territory, but it is definitely there's a lot more horror segments.
Is it more like tonal horror or
Um, yeah, it's a lot of it's just like tense atmosphere that that honestly a lot of times, spoiler alert, doesn't build up to anything because I'm not a jump scare guy. Um, I don't like them myself, so I don't put them in the games. Um, but what I found out was while a lot of people loved chapter 2, like chapter, last I checked is sitting at like 85% positive, which I obviously not as great as 97, but I'm happy with that. Like that's awesome. But what I found was that the part there was there was a a chunk of Cultic's fan base that was only there for the boomer shooter part of it. Like the kind of runand gun, bunny hop, which is a viable play style in the game. Like you can absolutely play it that way. And chapter one is easier than chapter 2 and is more generous with ammo because it is it's the earlier part of the game. Um, and so you could run and gun kind of ignore a

lot of head shot, kind of ignore a lot of the ammo economy and you you'd still be able to squeak by. And chapter 2 is it's harder um and it leans more into the ammo economy. And so if you just run around holding down left mouse and and you know like spraying the shotgun at distant enemies, you'll ammo will dry up a lot faster. Um, and there was room for balancing on that for sure. Like there were definitely areas where ammo was too dry. Um, and where and so I have, you know, in the weeks after the game came out kind of peace meal um, drip feeding ammo into areas where players have been able to identify reliably like, yeah, after this boss fight, I was just completely tapped out and I and I, as the developer didn't do a good job of restocking them. And so stuff like that's a no-brainer. Like that's Yeah, that's no problem. But there's also there's also I really felt like I had to be delicate with that because while there is a minority of players maybe like 7 to 10% of the players who

absolutely refuse to engage with the ammo economy or in resource [laughter] management. There's the remaining players, especially those, you know, like the the cultic community at large really really digs the lean into survival horror. Like they had a blast with it. Um, they loved learning all about like these ways that you can save ammo and these little sync like idiosyncrasies and these synergies between different different en different weapons and different enemy types and and I don't want to trivialize the game for those people and ruin that aspect of it in service of of you know dumping ammo into the game. And so unfortunately it kind of meant like I think that like this maybe 10% of negative reviews I'm just gonna have to be okay with because like their their point of like I loved what chapter 1 did I hate what chapter 2 does is valid. Like if you hate survival horror and you hate exploration and you hate ammo, like you know, resource management and your goal is just kind of

to be able to jump around and and just have a good time like, you know, shooting guys with with shotguns, then then yeah, Chapter 2 might not be the game for you. Um, and and I just I guess I just didn't expect that there was that big a chunk of the of the community that was so focused on the pure like boomer shooter part of Cultic and just didn't really ever engage with the rest of it. And that and I guess, you know, that was my mistake for not not really getting that.
And it's I think I think what you're going through is what every single person who's ever made a sequel is going through.
Yeah, probably. Yeah.
It's you're never going to make a better game. And the reason I mean you it might be subject like in your opinion and it probably is a better game but it's not a better game publicly because people they have this weird nostalgia.
Sure.
Or they're attached to chapter 1. They're a chap like for example you might have people like me who say I love how simple chapter 1 is and I do by the

way because I'm a simple guy. I like atmosphere and story and setting and mood. I don't care about economy, you know, and people like me are going to play it and go, man, it they forgot about what made chapter one great.
And it's like, well, I'm not making chapter one. I'm making chapter two,
you know,
and that's okay. And so, I think that ultimately, dude, if you're sitting at 85% on a sequel, you've done a good job. You've done a great job. These limitations are what make products great. I think I think if artists are given unlimited money and time to create something, they create a product that's amazing for them but not for anybody else. Uh this is something that I found true with uh Orson Wells who directed, you know, one of the greatest films of all time, Citizen Kain. He was young and he had studio limitations and so he he he ended up creating a really amazing film.

but be becoming proud. He he he became wealthy and successful and proud. This is my interpretation of what ended up happening. And he ended up creating just a bunch of films that were really cool for him, but the they were they they came across as pretentious and dense and complicated for no reason. And I think you see this a lot with artists is they just end up making stuff that is just way over the top. And it's like, you know, getting back to the basics is is in a way a blessing for a lot of developers. And I'm not saying you did that with chapter 2. I don't even know. I I I haven't even played it. I just I I looked at it. It looks incredible. But, uh, I think that limitations to some degree are going to be a good thing for every artist. Um, and and keeping the project fairly simple. Otherwise, it will just become

Jason's world,
you know, which I don't know if that's a good it'll have like cats in it and cows and it'll be in Kansas and,
you know, highly complicated economies. Um
well I think I think part of it too and this and this is probably and this is probably just a lesson that I imagine um any game dev who releases like you said that releases a game and then a sequel will probably deal with is um like a lot of the changes that happened with chapter 2 were responses to chapter 1's biggest criticisms. Um like the like the level variety, you know, that was a big criticism of chapter 1. And then believe it or not, a lot of people criticize chapter 1 for being too short, you know, like which you know it's again it's it's like a three to four hour game.
Great. But so that was another big thing is like the maps are too short, the game's too short. And so I was like, okay, so those,
you know, while while the game is n, you know, 97 98% positive, those these these are the few criticisms it has, so let's work on those. And so, okay, these are the few criticisms we have. So like theoretically, if we fix these things, then it will be a 100% positive game,

which of course is possible, right? [laughter] Um, and so but then you start you get that you get that effect of like you know only when you try to look at like reviews for for for like a computer component on the internet and all of the reviews are negative because it's only people who got one that didn't work who leave a review.
Exactly. Exactly.
So it's like so then you make these changes and then suddenly you get all of the people who were really happy with how chapter 1 was that are now leaving the negative reviews because it changed. And it's like, well, crap. Like, because, you know, when you've got threads on the Steam forum, which granted the Steam forum is its own can of worms, but when you've when you've got a when you've got a thread that's like 30 posts, you know, 30 posts long of just people just complaining circularly about how much they hate the color palette. It's the same it's like the same six people, you know, who are just But that's what that's what I see is like there's this thread that's constantly at the top of the boards of just like people hating the color palette. And so, it's like and there's no and there's not really anybody in there defending it either, which is fine. that's not it's not their job to be on the internet defending it. But but that's as a developer I see I'm like

well crap I guess you know there's a bunch of people who are probably just okay with it and then these people who want it fixed but there's not people saying no don't change it at all. Um and so then you change it and then those people who didn't want you to change it at all suddenly they are now the ones who are really upset. Uh, and it's like, well, and that's kind of that like being reactive versus, you know, like um waiting and waiting and looking for trends. And
well, I think that um something that I've been thinking about a lot is is um it's wild how important it is to have a dose of not necessarily humility, but like the ability to take criticism and be okay with
critique. Because what happens what happens with me or what used to happen with me is that if I got critique on Steam or on YouTube or something, I would get reactive. I would do a knee-jerk reaction in the other direction because it hurt so bad to get a negative reaction, right?
You know, and so I would try and course correct as quickly as I possibly could.

Mhm. When in reality, if you have a thick skin as a developer, you can get all this feedback and you can just sort of just like roll with the punches and it doesn't really bother you and it can keep you levelheaded about, okay, do I actually need to fix something, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. So, so for me, what I found so helpful when it came to testing and and I don't know if you did this with Cultic Chapter 2, but I kept I'm keeping my pool of or my initial pool of testers very small and very precisely chosen. I am I'm choosing people that I trust with my children's lives. That kind of thing. You know what I mean? people like very close friends, family members, not friends that are going to like,
you know,
kiss my ass, right?
But like friends who are going to be very I it's friends who I know like certain games. That's I guess that's what I'm getting at. So like if you if if I have a friend who doesn't like

immersive sims, for example, for my game Twisted Tower, if they don't like Bioshock, they're not playing my game. There's no reason,
right? And so or or people who people who know how to make a first-person shooter map like you, I'll get you to test the game, which you've been you pivotal in in Twisted Towers development. I get people who I trust to test my games
because feedback can be so all over the place and you end up changing stuff or adding a map. Like for me, I'm adding a map. Why did I add a map? you know, instead you need to be listening to to people who know a genre, who appreciate a genre, and they're also uh people you trust that are going to give you an honest honest opinion about your game because they want you to be successful,
right?
Obviously, you can broaden that, but I for me, it always starts with this core group of people. And that's where I make the most changes. And then public, you

know, beta testing,
that's when it's more like bugs. Are people getting lost at certain places? Um, or is this overwhelming like I hate the main character, you know, then you know you have a problem. But if it's like these,
you know, the the vocal, what do they call it? The vocal minority,
right?
Um, yeah, you shouldn't really listen to them. Well, that was that was like talking about like being reactive versus like just kind of like s So, I feel like I've gotten a lot better as a developer about not being reactive in terms of like making changes, but I absolutely still take everything super personal. [laughter] Every all it Oh, man. My my my feelings were my feelings were hurt in launch week. Um, but anyway, so the reactive thing was it was kind of interesting having these two issues right off the rip. Like one being navigation and like the map kind of thing and the other being ammo. Like there's not enough ammo. And I'm looking at this and it's like the streams that I have watched and the gameplay that I have watched of

players who are constantly running out of ammo. They're they're not engaging with with the game's mechanics. like you know they're they're like like magnum ammo is is valuable in cultic and they you know and and I'll watch players on streams just like hold down left mouse and and and and dump the entire lever action on like a pistol cultist who you could kill with one hatchet swing and it's like okay I I recognize that yes you keep running out of ammo but this also like I I I don't want to validate this play style either because then it trivializes the game for players that are engaging with the mechanics and so it's like the ammo I was sitting on like I was like I'm going to wait and see like if people can identify trends of like yes on this map at this point there's just no shotgun ammo and so everyone keeps running out. That's fine. Like I will happily go add some there. So that was a like sit sit and wait. But the map thing it was immediately apparent that like no people are going to keep getting lost. Like this is not this is not like like this is this is a developer failure on my

end. Um, and so the map that was easy. And not only that, but if Cultic gets console ports in the future, the map needs to be there. Like that's that's just not something like the the PC old school shooter players, a lot of them kind of expect these kind of sprawling like maps. Um, but I don't know that like console players who are dipping their toes into this genre would be as as forgiving with it. And and that's fine. Yeah, no problem. I'll add a map. And so every time I would release like a dev vlog talking about the map, I you know, you get people who are asking, "Yeah, what about the ammo thing?" I'm like, "I don't know yet. I'm still thinking about it."
A scarce ammo is one of the greatest tools to achieving a tense game and one where the player actually feels scared. Like in Cultic, you want you probably want people to feel a little bit tense, right? Especially chapter two. I was uh doing beta testing last week with my brother um for Twisted Tower and he was just getting wrecked in the first 30 minutes. He died like three times.
Is that still like basically the same as

the demo or is it like a new
It's the same. Yeah. No, I haven't changed any levels. It's the same design, level design. It's just the the the enemies have better AI now and and the gunplay is um it was more complicated because because you have secondary fire and you can purchase upgrades and you have to be careful with what you buy because you have very limited or scarce
uh coins or tickets in the case of Twis Tower. Anyway, he died three times
and I wrote down on my notepad this notepad. I wrote down make 30 minutes first 30 minutes easier and I circled it and then I I at the end of his playthrough what I found was he had slowed down and he was much more careful and I could see that he was going after an encounter.
Mhm.
And I'm like that's a good thing.
Yeah.
I want you to be sweating intense and I want you to slow down. The reason I wanted him to slow down was the whole game is about the environment. It's an immersive sim. It's about the world.

That's probably the foundation for the game
is the world and the setting and the vibes.
Well, I had play testers for the game last year when the game wasn't hard and they're just running through this thing and they said they felt bored and they didn't get it. But the moment you make it tense and difficult and punishing, then the player starts to play in that genre correctly.
Mhm. [clears throat] And so you start to realize why genres exist and why genre tropes exist, why a compass and a map exist, why the Magnum, you only get two bullets when you collect the Magnum ammo. It's because the developers intentionally designed that game and balanced it so that the players behave the way that the developers want them to. Right. So you don't just change something and make something easier because someone got mad. Mhm.
It's about this holistic view. Okay. It's like that's why it's so important why I found it so important to sit down

and watch people play a game.
Yeah.
Play your game because how they're if they're upset in the first 10 minutes, it doesn't mean that they're going to be upset about the same thing in an hour. They may actually understand why you did what you did in the first 10 minutes. That's the trouble with the modern gaming industry or players is that, and I I've said this a thousand times, yes, your demo, yes, the first 15 minutes of your game need to be fun and they need to be rewarded quickly. But the problem with that is that it creates weird expectations about the rest of the game. If you're giving them a juicy, delicious treat at the beginning of the game because you want to hook them, the problem is they might get really confused or not play correctly here. Do you see what I'm saying?
Yeah. That's so hard to balance.
Yeah. And part of that like being reactive thing that we're talking about too is um you know there's a lot of there were I mean there's there were a lot of a lot of threads and a lot of stuff going around when chapter 2 came out about like XYZ is impossible like I'm out of ammo here blah blah blah and

and I was I was trying to be really careful to like because it's one of those things that with the map like if if I if I can chew on all this feedback and I can kind of get a good view of it and it's like despite everybody doing everything the way despite everybody like using the tools the game gives them, they're still struggling. with resources, then yes, it's time to add more resources. But it's it's kind of like trying to guide players in when when they're posting about this on the forums or or in a review, for example, is like, well, like, can you can you walk me through like your strategy for this area and and you kind of try to talk them through like the game's tool set? And you find out like this player doesn't know that head shot deal like triple damage and that the game is incurred. like they they got through chapter 1 without ever realizing that head shot are. And it's like and that's a huge deal. That's like I I I try to make this comparison so I don't I don't like make people feel like I'm like, "Oh, you for you didn't see that." The first time I played Doom Eternal, I did not realize that the chainsaw regenerated fuel like one pip. And that and that the game is like borderline

broken if you don't have that that chainsaw available. And so I was like, I don't know how anybody's playing this game. [laughter] Like this is this is awful. And then and then the second time when I was like, "Okay, well, I'm going to try it again." I I caught the little tutorial note about it that I missed the first time and I was like, "Oh, that makes a big" And so I'm trying to see if I can get players to have that like, "Oh," moment, that light bulb moment. And it's like, "Hey, did you know head shot deal crazy amounts of damage?" Did you know that fire just like murders all of these big tanky enemies? Did you know that the headshot that that the hatchet can like one hit kill almost every normal cultist? Like you don't even have to spend bullets on them. like did you like all this stuff, all these tools that are there and sometimes you get through those and the response is like it's a shooter. I just want to shoot stuff and and okay, like that's that's where I'm like, okay, then yeah, you might you might not enjoy this. But more more often than that is when you get to as as a as a developer, you get to have that really rewarding moment where somebody's like, I had no idea that I could dash and that changes everything.

or like or like I haven't been using the tackle and then they start using it and it's like oh my god like this is such and and and seeing them go from like posting a thread about how much they hate the game to like just destroying the final boss is you're like that that's awesome. That's such a much that's such a better outcome than than you know like somebody complaining and then you as a response tripling the amount of ammo in the game and then yes now they can get through the game but they didn't get to have any of these cool moments of engaging with the game's mechanics. I want to do sort of a shotgun round here of things things you've learned you know.
Okay.
I don't think people realize how valuable it is to have someone like you on this podcast because you're normal. You're not part of some big double A or AAA studio. And by normal, I mean you're just a normal dude. You're not like some um I don't know, you don't have a huge social media presence on like YouTube. You're not like some famous YouTuber or something. So, it's it's very very

exciting for me to be able to just go like pick your brain with pieces of advice because you you you're so you've helped me so much as as especially as a designer. So, I want to start with design.
Okay. You know, you've been making you made Cultic, you made Cultic Chapter 2 and Bone Rooms. You've touched kind of the full gamut gamut of indie game or you've touched a lot. You've touched a lot of genres. Let's start with design. What are some some design mistakes you've made in the past um that you would do differently for your next game?
Um just like like overall game design specifically or
Yeah. Or it can be it can be granular or it can be sort of big picture when it comes to design like level design, game design, mechanics.
Yeah. Well, I mean like just tying into what we just talked about um with with Cultic was kind of a little bit of that um big bigger isn't always better mindset. Like I think that like for example like chapter 2 probably would have some folks probably would have been less frustrated if it was 20 like 20

maps that were half the length of the existing 12 maps. Um because like I think despite the fact that you can save whenever you want in Cultic, I still think that like most folks, myself included, I am also this way. I don't consider saving in the middle of a of a level to be like a satisfying end to a play session, right? And so, you know, you're going to have players who feel like this hour and a half long level, they have to finish it before and and so then it turns into something that they don't feel like they can just pick up and put down, which is really valuable. And that is to me as well. Like I feel like any like the only things I play anymore are games that I feel like I can just pick up and put down like playing a couple rounds of like Phasmophobia or Repo or you know like jumping in and working on my base in Minecraft a little or you know it's like things that I can do in two hours when I have a little bit of free time and get a meaningful session out of it.
Yeah.
And so like like I would say like like the bigger isn't always better. Um what was a bit of a lesson in like just

because I can doesn't mean I should. Just because I can make the fairgrounds this giant 90minute long level doesn't mean that we should because you know and some folks will love that. You some folks love the big sprawling maps with all this exploration. Um but I guess like accepting that there's going to be penalt you know like consequences of that for the players that don't vibe with that.
Dude, you know what's funny is the levels that I I have I I have redone me and Felipe because Felipe's he's back on board doing part-time work for me which I'm I'm really grateful for.
Nice. Um, the levels that me and Felipe have kept are the ones that are small.
And this isn't true with every genre, obviously, you know, but with like games like you and I make linear first-person shooters, often times it's big enough. It's not big enough for you and me, you know, we have we we could see the zoomed out version of the map and we can see just how small it is.
But like I was saying earlier, players don't know what's beyond that quad. They don't know it's just a skybox. they

think it's a whole other part of the map. So, it's much bigger in their mind um than it actually is. And so, I totally agree with you. Bigger isn't always better. More complicated isn't always better. Uh more puzzling isn't always better because at the end of the day, sometimes just hunting for a key is complicated enough for some people, you know.
Sure.
Yep.
So, let's move on to the second one. Okay. What are some production things you've learned? some mistakes you've made.
And by production that means team, schedule, uh tools, cost, outsourcing.
Yeah. Um hm I would I guess one that's that's particularly bit me in the butt um over time is and I don't know if this was like a sunk cost issue or not but like sticking because I cultic is still in a 2021 LTS version of Unity and and and there's there's the particular version it uses has some infuriating bugs and crashes and I've just like

dealt with them for four years because I didn't want to up because every time I upgrade Unity versions it breaks like 40 of my scripts and it breaks like a hundred shaders because like Unity is just like hey to surprise we deleted these functions from the engine and I I happen to use those functions. So I've been really hesitant to upgrade Unity versions. Um and that's something that like yes I don't think you should upgrade your engine version every every time there is an update but like ah maybe after three two three years or like between chapter 1 and chapter 2 would have been a great time to do it. like you know when chapter 2's development started in 2023 that version would have already been two years newer and so like that would have been a good time to upgrade
and the same thing goes for tools like uh we used real time CSG for um for Cultic's uh a lot of the map development that was brushbased because it runs in Unity which is great because then you don't have to do this pipeline of you know like if you're working in like Hammer or Trench Broom or whatever where it's like export or save export and then import into Unity and then like oh the

scale and this wrong or whatever and then you have to go back and forth. Real time CSG I've always joked like if I had to review it I it would be like lifesaver. Could not have finished Cultic without it. Two out of 10.
Yep. [laughter]
I know.
It was it was it it was so it's so and and it's it's free. It's made by um you know like it's kind of just like a a passion project and and it hasn't been in development since like 2019. And so I it makes sense that it would be janky. But
yeah,
it's it's a mess. It's really buggy, but there's nothing like it. There's nothing there's no other tool that lets you do CSG brushbased boolean map development right inside the Unity editor. And that was so valuable. And so I don't know what I'm going to use next. I have no idea. But that was another thing that like yes, Nick and I when I brought Nick on board, I could have chosen like actually you know what we're going to we're going to map in Hammer or we're going to map in Trench Broom or or you know like we're I'm just going to teach you how to model in Blender and we're like we could have changed tools

but I was like no I'm going to stick to what I know and we're and I'm just going to teach you all of the bugs in real time CSG and how to work around them. Um and it was still really frustrating. Um
yeah, we the same is true with ProBuilder. We we use ProBuilder and it's just it's just trash. Um
it's so so bad. But
yeah,
lifesaver.
Yeah.
You know, I use Pro Builder for um like invisible walls and like water volumes and when you when I just need to really quickly draw a primitive in in Unity, it's great for that. But like like Ultrakill and like Dusk, I think both heavily used ProBuilder to actually make levels. And I'm like, how? that that would have been that had to have been so frustrating.
I'm not going to do it again. Um I need to look at some of those tools you mentioned. Um but uh that's great, man. I I think I have some some marriage advice for you. Um this is this is related, I promise.
Uh something my dad used to always say with with marriage is he said um and this is related to updating unity and

okay
and updating tools. He always said that um every fight you refuse to have with your wife or your spouse is like laying a brick. And if you don't address various points of tension in marriage, all of a sudden you're going to be surprised that an entire wall is in front of you and your wife and you don't even know why. That's why it's really important to to address conflict with whether it's in business or with a spouse. oftenimes you don't realize that one small conflict is actually going to stack up to be a ton of conflicts and you just you end up just you're not going to get through that wall, right? And the same is true, I think, with what you're saying about Unity and tools and updating tools. I'm I'm still stuck in 2022, right? Unity 2022. And I I understand that feeling of like, man, I wish I I had had the fight with the editor for six hours, you know, just get it done, get it updated. And so I do think there is validity to there's definitely

validity to not updating the editor ever and just stick with it. Like I I stand by my decision to some degree, but there's also part of me that wishes every time, you know, every quarter just do an update. You know what I mean? because now I'm looking at that brick wall. I'm like, if I update to Unity 6 or whatever it is now,
the game is going to catch fire. My PC will crash. Okay, so last shotgun question here and then and then can we open up Cultic and Unity?
Yeah.
Okay, the last one is what are some marketing things you've learned in the last I guess seven years of development?
Has it been seven years?
Yeah. Um, everything is meaningless. Everything literally everything is meaningless. Uh, man,
I don't agree with that. I don't agree. I think you and I had this conversation the last episode
where you you I think you said basically just doesn't matter anymore.
It's um it's more I guess it's more like there there you know that there are baseline marketing steps that are pretty

much always going to be good to follow. Um like I would still always recommend that developers document their game as they're working on it, you know, like and just be engaged with the community. I think stuff like that is always going to be a net benefit, but like I had I had this on our list to kind of touch back on a little bit when we were talking about like like targeting a viral launch versus a game that people will come back to 10 years from now.
It and I'm sure you I'm sure you've probably had some of the same feeling and maybe we even talked about it, but it sucks to be in year four of working on a linear shooter where if you want to make 20 minutes of content for the game, you're going to be working on like a map for two months. you're going to be working on
easily
brand new art assets, new cutscenes, new music, new like to make 20, 30 minutes of gameplay in your linear shooter.
It takes so much development time and then like like and and this is this is not me trying to complain. Cultic did great, way better than I expected it to. But when you're in like year four of content grind and then you've got these

like like these like these like Bellatros like and and this is not to dig on BotRo. I don't know. It's not I know exactly what you're saying.
You you've got to get I don't know how longro took to develop but I know it wasn't four years and like you know this and it was something that was just kind of a fun thing for the developer to work on for his friends. It's got it's got appealing but but very like minimal art and like and this comes out and and and outpaces your game's performance by by like hundreds of thousands of times, right? And and it's not and it's not just like Bellacho, you know, it's you know games like like like Lethal Company for example, which I I really enjoyed Lethal Company. So again, don't take to the audience out there, don't take any of this as digs against
and in a way you're sympathizing with all of us, every developer listening right now, which is like
[laughter]
It's just like you're sitting there, you're like, "What the hell am I doing that?" Like, you know, like I I'm I'm I'm sitting there in like year three and a half grinding away on Cultic. I've got like the game awards on my other monitor

and you're watching like Bellatro like almost win like game of the year and it's made like so much money that that developer will never have to worry, which is great. I mean, great for them. People obviously love the game. So, like there's no there's no fault there.
It's not that the game is bad. You're not saying that. You're saying that they caught lightning in a bottle.
Sure. Yeah. And and it's like what the hell what the hell am I doing? And and and and it would have and yeah, I could have stopped I could have thrown Coltic in the trash and I could have and I could have focused on like well let's make let's make a number go up game because I like number go up games. I'm I'm not a big fan of the like Bellatro Clover Pit flavor, but like the Vampire Survivors Risk of Rain kind of number go up I'm I'm all about. So I I get it and I' I've wanted to work on a game like that. And so it was very tempting to like I could put Cultic on the shelf and I could like take my Cultic assets and I could make like a Cultic Vampire Survivors knockoff and I and I and I and it would probably do okay and it would probably only take me like six months to a year to put together and and I might still do that because it does sound

really fun honestly. Um
can I can I offer a really quick like warning there?
Please do.
And you dude you're you're more successful than I am in the game dev world. So my advice is, you know, take it with a grain of salt.
I will not I I will take I will [laughter] take it as gospel. I'm ready.
Well, I've seen developers I won't say names. I've seen developers who shift gears completely and and abandon and you probably know who I'm talking about, but they've abandoned what they're so good at to create that viral game and they don't know how to do it. I think these viral number go up games or like the friend slop games where like Danny apparently Danny made uh do you know Danny?
Uh is that this is that the guy who made uh Muk or is that a different guy?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. U he made Muk.
I love Muk. Muk has Muk which takes like 30 minutes to beat and is a free game that was basically he made it as like somebody was like I bet you couldn't

make a multiplayer game and he was like bet you I can. Well, Buck has almost derailed Cultic so many times because I I like to play it with one of my best friends as just like a screw around game and it's like I want to do this. I want to just like I want to just make something minimalist and fun and just and just
Anyway, sorry. Please continue. I'm getting off.
Well, but look at this. This game called Meabon. Look how successful this is. Do you know Mega Bonk?
Oh, I Oh, I know it.
Okay, look who made it. Vinad.
I can't read it.
It says Ven Vinad here. Here, hold on. Do you know who that is?
I don't.
That's Danny.
Is it really?
It's backwards. It's Danny Dev.
Oh, how about that?
So, the reason I bring this up is Danny has a passion and a It's in his blood to make these silly
It's not friendlop, but it's just odd.
Sure.
Number grow up games.
I could be wrong that this is a number grow up game. I'm seeing a lot of

numbers, but point being it's in his blood.
And so all I'm saying is that I'm never going to I'll speak for me. I'm not going to make a number go up game because I don't care. I don't like those games. I won't play those games. I'm not drawn to those games. I'm going to make what I'm gifted at and what my forte is.
I like those games. I like them. [laughter]
They're I like them a lot. Well, if you like if you like these games, then I think that's great. But I just want to remind you, you're really good at aesthetic and and and um moody spooky environments. Um [snorts] you're good at um hearkening to nostalgia and story. [snorts]
So I I I always talk about F. Scott Fitzgerald and his his book um The Great Gatsby. I bring it up a lot because that that book

didn't wasn't successful when it launched and it took a while for it to build this worldwide fame and something that we all read in school that is stars, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio in modern day. It's a tiny little book. It's seemingly shallow and odd and it's like why would you spend this time writing this character study of a Yepy basically? But there's it is there's so much more weight to that book than the books that were forgotten in the when was it written? The 30s or the 40s. So, I'm just I just want to say like I look at Coltic and I'm like this this has a heart and it's so it's so meaty and you you you know I you tongue and cheek kind of complain about how long it takes to make it
but it's obvious that it took a long time to make when I

look at it and I just want to encourage you and this is something I tell myself all the time. There is so much we don't know about what we're making. Um, just because something goes viral doesn't mean that it was worth our time. And just because something made a lot of money
doesn't mean that it is a valuable game.
Uh, sometimes we have to wait. My theory about Cultic is this is a this has it's not a Cultic is not some like cultural trendy game where it's like hey I'm going to catch on to the zeitgeist and sell a million copies. Cultic is a game where it's like no like this thing has staying power and continues to sell for years for a decade or a decade plus. Um and I would rather personally I would rather make those kind of games. Mhm.
Um, and I'm not trying to be like super like spiritual or woo woo or whatever. I

just think it's great to to like stand your ground and make great games that have that have a beating heart for 10 plus years.
Yeah.
Um, now will Mega Bonk have a a beating heart for 10 plus years? Probably. I mean, I think it's that good.
Yeah. But I think there's a lot of these kind of games out there that are just one and done. Especially the multiplayer games, they last for like a month and then it's over, you know?
Yeah. Well, the pro so like not only when I look at So like I said like Batro stuff like that, the BotRo Clover Pit, the more like gambling number go up games that's that's not really my cup of tea. So like while it's like I can't Wow, I can't believe that sold that many copies. um th those don't really like get me changing course, but games like like Crab Champions, like Mega Bonk that are more like combat build crafting number go up, that's that's like that's that gets me as a g as a player and a developer where I'm like I want to make one of those just cuz it sounds fun. Like I want to I want to make because

that's like I said before with Coltic with Twisted Tower with these like linear shooters. If you want to make 30 minutes of gameplay, it's like it's two it's two three months of work. It it is it is brand new. It's brand new, brand new models, brand new textures, brand new everything. But like if you make a game like like Mega Bonk, right? Like like like crab champions, whatever. You can you can add one new enemy and generate because because those are in a way kind of like procedural. It's like you've got you have like a base set of I haven't played Mega Monkey yet. I don't know if it's procgen or not, but like vampire survivors in that way that you have you have a limited scale of map and then you just are sprinkling ingredients in it and seeing how they mix and and that's kind of the the magic of build crafting games like that is you can add a new weapon and you can add one new perk, one new upgrade and suddenly you've the game you've completely shifted the game's meta. Yeah. Yeah. And now, and so like I spend an I could spend an afternoon making and tweaking

an icon for one new upgrade, add it to the game, release it on a br on like a beta branch, and you've got four more hours. Like someone could just do a few more runs just to check it out, and you've generated all of this new and I I think that would be a really fun formula to have because like like I said with Cultic, if I want to do more Cultic, I'm locking in for months of work to to to put out, you know, 20 30 minutes of gameplay. like Interlude. Interlude is like a 25 30 minute map. It took like four months to make that. Like it was it took a while. Um and I and I just I I want I want to be able to mess with functions and and design new like design new and interesting stuff that's not just content grind. I'm so burned out on content grind. And so that's where like the mega bunks and stuff like that really got to me, you know, as I'm as I was sitting here four years into developing this game is like I want to do anything but content grind right now.
I know. Let me ask you a question. What kind of style of game do you think AI benefits more?

Like like generative AI or
No, like code. AI code.
Okay.
AI code. Yeah, generative AI. Yeah, sure. Generative AI like 3D models, 2D art. who who t who has more advantage um or who's going to use those tools more. And I'm not saying for everybody listening right now because I got in trouble on Twitter. I'm not saying Mega Bonk is friend slop. I'm not saying that Crab Champions is is friend slop. I'm just talking about friend slop. Friend sloppy games, multiplayer games, or like number go up games. Do those kind of games benefit from AI, generative AI and generative code, or these content grind games that are storydriven linear games?
So, I say I I think I think we've probably talked about this before. I am not a generative AI person at all. Like I I I recognize its value in things like um like like assisting assisting with

code production. Like I can see where that would be useful. I'm personally very much a I'm going to do it myself kind of guy. Yes. Um, so like for stuff like that and and like Unity's new AI tools for example, like one of them was a tool that you could like basically ask it a question and it and it would crawl Unity's documentation. Like that's cool. Like if it works, that's cool. Like as long as it works and it doesn't burn down a rainforest to make it happen. Like that stuff's useful. Like if Unity ever puts out an AI profiler to be like, "Hey, can you analyze this frame and tell me where I'm
right?" Like I I was really mad. This is I won't go too deep into this. When I read Unity's AI presentation, I was so mad that we were getting like that we were getting like AI generated 2D sprites before like an AI memory profiler like
Oh, 100%.
100%.
So like AI I think that there's still there's still like a big a really big black mark around like if your game on Steam has the AI badge on it at the moment. I think there's still going to

be a big like a big, you know, like that people it's gonna it's going to turn people away especially when I mean like what was uh like Metal Eden was a um was kind of a like uh I haven't played it. I'm not very familiar with it, so forgive me if I butcher the genre, but it's kind of like a a retro shooter adjacent type of game, but it's got more like Doom 2016 like AAA style graphics. Um, and it had like a single
AI generated voice in it. And it was like a, from my understanding, it was like a really minor character. The character themselves,
like it was like a robot character.
Mhm.
And they used AI for that voice. And like people were pretty upset about that. And like, and I get it cuz like if if it is a robotic character, you could have paid anybody on Fiverr to to record a really a really a really stiff robot voice and then you could have filtered the pants off of it and you would have and you would have been done. So like for me in general, I think that I don't think generative AI is ethical enough to

benefit anything. Um in ter especially in terms of art code is is is a different story. Um
people will be mad about that. You just you just said the unspeakable thing. You're not allowed to say that.
Ethical. Yeah. Well, no. I'll
No, no, no. You're not allowed to say you're not allowed to say that generative code is different than generative art because
code is art. But of course, subconsciously, everybody knows it's different. There's something different about code versus art.
I think I think there there is the same ethical problem there. Um that like like cultic code is not great, right? It's it's it's Jason was learning C as he went kind of deal. And so like a lot of my code is a mess. And so like if if somehow if somehow like you know co-pilot crawled my code and and and input it you know like basically like learned from it put it in its model like without my consent that's pretty uncool but like any code that any experienced programmer is going to write would have been better than mine to begin with and

so like I don't really care if somebody uses my code and like the the Jaws games discord has a gamedev channel and I frequently would be like yeah here's my code like here's there you go you can learn from it but it's just like the fact that there's like no consent involved is what where where is uh where is AI scrubbing code from?
I oh I don't know this this is this is this is a
scrubbing code from are they scrubbing code from Halo
I know I think that it's scrubbing code from like Stack Overflow and stuff.
Yeah, it might be
GitHub public repos on GitHub. By the way, everybody listening, I'm not saying this is such a sticky stick sticky subject and I guess I understand why, but I'm not saying that that's people should be fine with, you know, code getting scrubbed. I'm just saying we don't fully know. I don't fully know where the code is being scrubbed. So, that's a good question to ask. But, by the way, Jason, the reason I ask, who benefits more from AI? the people who make these quick number go up games that and I'm not saying all of them are easy

to make. I'm just saying some of them are.
Or or people who make linear storydriven games that have a cohesive visual identity.
Mhm.
My theory my theory
you go first. Sorry.
I'll give you my theory.
Yeah. Yep. My point about that question is the games that have this silly, childish, incohesive visual identity, those games benefit from AI immensely.
Mhm.
Because you could throw together a stupid looking model, a 3D model or a stooping stupid looking 2D sprite, and slap it into your game and it's like, "Aha, this is ironic and silly because that sprite doesn't even match the 3D art." and I'll just throw together some random code and make this really funny and this is a really funny multiplayer game and it's great for streaming. The problem with this is yes AI helps that but now everybody's going to make those games. So, and so the demand goes way down for these kind of games and the the demand skyrockets for games like Cultic.

That's my theory is that [clears throat] in five years, the people who can create a visually cohesive game with a very uh strong story and a cohesive narrative that go takes you from point A to point Z. Those games are highly valuable because nobody's making them because they're addicted to AI, right,
development tools. So that's my theory.
No, and I agree. I agree with you. Um, and what I what I wanted to add to it is that I think like what you what I see happening and what you kind of describe, it's literally the exact same. It it's already happening now. It's just now they're asset flips and soon they will be generative AI.
And so,
right. And so and so like right now, you know, you've already got a lot of these, you know, like you'll call it like we'll call it friendlop games or these like kind of like streamer bait kinds of games will, you know, like they will use assets and and as a result, like you said, there's no visual cohesiveness, but because it is this goofy $3 play it on stream once game, you don't really

care. But at least in that instance, the person who made the assets is still getting paid uh from the purchase of them. But I think yeah I think you know if generative or if slash when generative AI gets to the point that you can hop into Unity 6.4 and now they have a 3D mesh generator that basically yeah what you're going to be making is very quickly iterated on products and there are there are asset flips out there that turned out to be great games like Fasmophobia is one that like that game was like a it was a really solid gameplay loop wrapped in literally everything [laughter] is assets. Um, and I think that'll still happen. Like if there if there's somebody who has a great game idea and maybe they themselves are just a great coder and they have no other skills, then they could use generative AI to build the rest of those assets. And and in in an alternate reality where generative AI was set up in like an ethical way, that wouldn't have really been a big deal. You would have sacrificed personality

and soul and visual cohesiveness for in the same way that you do with an asset flip. But with an asset flip, people do see them as like oftentimes we'll see them as like a lower level of quality or maybe they have a stigma with them, but at least they're ethically made, you know, and like the worst the worst you get is like mobile slop, right? Like mobile game asset slop. But
yeah. Well, you know that there's two sides to that equation and it's so funny that you you started talking about the ethical one and I started talking about the commercial side of it. Um, it just shows how how of a sle how much of a sleas I am when I'm thinking about like I by the way I think the way to win the AI argument is not to do it ethically or to make the ethical argument because ethical arguments never really I don't think they have strength because people at the end of the day if it's easy to make a game and you're alone in your room you're going to do it unethically. Most people not saying I would and I'm not saying you would. I just think the

better way to make an argument is to say, look, if we don't want AI to win, we need to make an economical argument, which is you want to be the game that stands out. You want to be the game that people remember be especially in the a in this in the upcoming years when every game that comes out is going to be visually incohesive because everyone's just using prompts. The way to stand out is to do it the right way and to do it ethically, which is make it look amazing. Make it look visually cohesive. Even if it's a multiplayer game or a number go up game, imagine if you make a game that's a number go up game, but it looks like a Jason game, a JSOW's game. You know what I mean? Has that visual cohesion.
That I think is how game devs win right now. You've got to be You've got to be the developer that stands out and stops making silly looking games. I I like silly looking games. Like I think it's fine, but like in the next two years, every

game's going to look silly. It's I just see it. Am I wrong here, Jason? It seems like exponentially the games that are coming out are looking more and more dumb. It's like super colorful, ugly, incohesive. Where are the games that look like Cultic? I guess they exist obviously, but it just seems like the frequency is going down.
Well, I think some of it's just like like you have to be eye-catching. And honestly, like I would argue that's the only reason that like Cultic got off the ground to begin with was like obviously it wasn't like silly, ugly, incohesive, whatever. Well, to some people it probably is, but it looks it was like I was it was um making a horror game in a in in a in a colorful retro games color palette. Um, and that was I mean that's when I first saw the Pico 8 Doom port uh Poom, which is where I got the idea for that was the same thing is I was like I can't believe how good Doom looks using this really colorful retro palette. And so like Coltic got off the ground

because people saw you like it was just visually eye-catching because like Twitter's discoverability is is is gone. Like it it's dead. And so, which sucks because like probably the only piece of advice I felt comfortable giving devs before about like how to market yourself, I don't think is even valid anymore because it's it's a different it's a different Twitter. Like, you know, the the the the discoverability, the the value of hashtags, the value of audience is gone in favor of engagement, like engagement baiting. And um I don't know if that's if that's going to change, when it will change, you know, with with this current level of like, you know, the the the swordification. I don't know if I can swear on the podcast. Um but the you know, which word?
The the old the old
[ __ ] word?
The Yeah. The old inshitification where everything is just, you know, everything's like ad revenue. Ad revenue. I don't know. I don't know that we'll get back to that, but like it's that if your goal is to, you know, like like the way that Mega Bonk was

advertised, it was very much using this like very ironic like ironic youngster lingo and you know like all all the all in like these crazy silly visuals. Um, and that's again not to those listening. That's not to say it looks bad by any means, but like it was
intentionally looks bad. It intentionally looks bad. You know what I mean? It's it's just attention grabbing and and that and that and that works and that and that did work to cultic for a degree and and so like I think you're um
I I think that's probably part of the point is that um you know as when it when generative AI gets to the point where it can produce game assets which will have horrible topology, you know, to start and will have terrible deforms, but it won't matter because like that's going to be the it's like the like the Cruelty Squad lookalike games where it's like like Cruelty Squad have this very visually harsh look to it. It It was very kind of um and I haven't played it. I'm not part of that fan base, and this is not me, again, this is not me [ __ ] on it. This is me trying to like describe it, but it's it's a very visually harsh game, and that's kind of

just part of the design.
Um it and it's very eye-catching. Like you, it kind of makes you stop and be like, "What what in the hell am I looking at?" Um and a lot of people have have parited this because Cruelty Squad did very well. Um I I it seems like it's people really enjoy it. It's a good game. I haven't played it myself, so I can't really comment on it, but
but this is this is Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. I don't want to
I I was just going to say like people go for the same aesthetic where it's just like they just kind of throw whatever at the wall. Um because there is a way to make it endearing in this like very ironic way. Um and so yeah, and I think you know like the the the generative AI can go the same direction. Like yes, everything is a visual mess, but if you can just ironically be like, "Well, that's the game style." um which I can do with Cultic, you know, like some of my textures are extremely crunchy and like and and and noisy and hard to read and it's like, well, that's the game style, so I get away with it, you know. And so I'm not saying I'm innocent. It's it's a different a different kind of doing it, but it doesn't make me innocent either. I think the ethical

argument will be a lot because I don't think many people have problems with the ethics of asset stores. Like you you you're paying them for their work. The issue there is more like with quality. Like does this make my game feel cheaper? Does this make my game not look visually consistent? And that's kind of for the audience to decide mostly, but the e the ethics argument I think will be because you'll still have that same problem with AI generated stuff. Is this visually consistent? Does this look good? Do the deforms look good? Does the texturing look good? Am I able to work with this UV mapping in a way that I can apply extra shaders to it?
And then you have the ethics on top of it still. So,
well, go ahead and uh I I think you're right. The ethics will always be there. Go ahead and um open up Unity here,
dude. Yes.
Are you Are you seeing my This is This is the bunker. The The penultimate map. And this is It is It It is a big big boy.
Okay. One sec. One sec. I'm going to turn on my fan. It's getting hot in here. It started getting really hot in here the moment you opened up Unity. [laughter]
That That's weird how that happens.
Oh, cool, dude. All right, take me

through. And then I also want to see it in play mode, like so people can see like what it looks like behind the camera, which is crazy how much it'll change.
Let me open let me open a map that's easier to visually parse because this map is a mess of triggers and vertically stacked stuff. I I'll open I'll open the first map in Coz, which will be less spoilery, too.
So this is this is uh where's the spawn? Here's the spawn. So this is E1M1. This is the and the auto map is kind of overlaid on everything right now, so I'll just I'll just turn that off. So yes, this is this is just in um this is just in like Unity's flat shading. So this is um this doesn't have Cultic's color palette applied to it, but all of Cultic's texture work is done using the color palette. So
wait, how's the color palette applied?
Uh it's just a a post-processing like um color lookup table. So it basically is just quantizing quant quant. Yeah. Um, so yeah. And so these are like these these brushbased interiors are like what we were using realtime CSG

for. I don't know if any of these are
Can I see it in play mode without the quantizing?
Uh, yeah.
I want to see how bad it looks.
And I'm not trying to be mean. That's how it's that this way.
I feel the same way. I It kills me when I see people play Cultic without the pallet.
Like they can turn it off in the options.
Yeah. Uh, let me let me maximize this too. Okay. So, this is with this is pallet on uh the new pallet, the V5 pallet. And then um actually, let me get to somewhere where the lighting is a little more significant. We'll go out here where the pallet's a little more pronounced. Okay. And we'll we'll turn on the lighter, too, because you can you can really see the the limiting on the ground. So, this is pallet on. We'll go and
turn the pallet actually first. Uh so, you can roll back to earlier versions of Cultic's pallet.
So, this this is the original pallet. [gasps] It looks like the first one.
Yeah, the very This is the OG pallet and then um
I think V2 [clears throat]

was what 1.0 launched with. Uh we're going the wrong direction here.
So this So V2 is what chapter 1 originally launched with. Um is this palette here.
Why did you change it?
Uh it's pretty much just anytime I anytime I identify a significant gap in the color palette, I add something into it. Yeah. So, like you can see here that like this this asphalt below me, which is actually a pretty detailed texture, is just like two shades of brown basically.
Yeah.
And then when we switch back to the version five palette, you'll see Oh, wrong direction again. You'll you'll see like how much more detail pops up in it.
Yeah. But you can't do too much because then it won't feel retro,
right? And then Okay. So then this we'll turn it off entirely.
Yeah. Let's see.
Filtering. We'll turn off dithering, too.
So with it off, it looks great. I like I yes I'm proud of the texture work I did but like this just [laughter] so much looks like the standard Unity shader because it is this is all just standard Unity specular without

so like yeah with this turned off I just I die on the inside it oh it it kills me so much
it's just like you lose but it's like the option is there for a reason I get that people won't like the pallet it the pallet has been has been kind of polarizing and controversial since day one so it's fine but still just like just like what what It's like like, you know, like if you play the original Doom with texture filtering where everything is smoothed together like it's
Yeah.
It's a completely different look. And I
Well, let's zoom out now from now that I've we've seen this. Can we see now? Can we zoom out that same location?
And I'm not doing this because I'm trying to be controlling. I just know my audience like they're going to like to see the difference between
what it looks like in editor. That's so cool, Jason.
Yeah. So this is the this is the big terrain blob of the map.
Yeah.
And then the area that we were just in here is the sun. And there's all these giant boxy these these are all just like ambient sound and light triggers basically.

What tool is that? Is that
It's just a cube.
I know. But Oh, it's it's just a trigger. I see. It triggers the music.
Yeah. I just have um I just I just have a script that fades between light and audio zones. Um,
and so yeah, so this is the area we just spawned in. Um, it's all all We can turn on the actual uh lighting, too. These these are so one of the big optimizations with um chapter 2 was consolidating lights. So like before like both of these lights had their own point light on them and now there's one larger point light that's in between them and then they're they're just tied together. So if you break both of these lights, the light goes away. This is a a big noob mistake that a lot of new 3D game developers make. They think every light needs a light a point light.
Oh yeah. No, this is I I I was Oh, let me I was very guilty of this. That was one of the biggest obstations.
I Exactly. Same here. And everything has

a shadow. Um now for me it's like I found that one light looks way better than five because it's it's it's much more cinematic. You know,
originally on this on this part of map 2, every single one of these point lights, every single one of these light fixtures had a point light on it. And there were there were like
there was like 36 point lights on this structure alone. And so this like very low poly area was generating like
600,000 vertic or triangles. Y
and so now it's like this point light controls all six of these. Yes. And then these, you know, these ones control. And so that was like stuff like that was a huge game changer for
and they're also are they oluding out as well? Um
yeah. So like this um
they have a script on them or this cube. Yeah. So this cube here basically I'll actually let me bring the inspector back. Um so this has a light portaling script on it that controls I guess

that's not those lights. Anyway, so like it has it's just a a class I wrote that's called light portal and you it has a list of lights and then um any light that you drag. So like this is controlling like this light and then like this little burn barrel over here.
Cool.
And so whatever's in that list when you enter this square it turns on and when you leave the square it turns off.
Does it fade them in or does it just
pop there? There's a little float here that controls how fast they fade in or out. Yeah.
Um, so for like entering like a cave, like if you're walking into like this cave over here, the light fade is really slow. It happens over like three seconds. Yeah.
Um, but for areas where it's like once you leave, once you walk through a doorway, all the lights inside, it's like 30 30 frames and they're gone.
Now, people just so people who who are aware or listening who are I want them to be aware, this is not some trivial optimization. Like this is huge,
right? especially if they have got shadows,
right? Since since Unity or sorry, since Cultic is completely real time lit

because I hate light light baking. Um,
I do too. And it also doesn't look very good because you lose your specular and metallic. Light baking isn't as bad. I sound like a know-it-all. I'm sorry. [laughter]
No, you're fine.
I've just been through the baking process with specular and metallic and I'm not sure you have.
I No, I I've tried baking a couple of times and in both times I was like, "This is awful. I don't want to I don't I don't like the workflow of baking.
Not only is baking hard with just a standard albido, you lose specular and metallic values. They're gone. They're wiped when you bake. And so you have to place a bunch of probes all over the place,
right?
There's no such thing as a metallic probe as far as I'm aware. So metallic values are gone.
And so if if you let's say you have a metallic map on let's say your crates, all of your crates are going to be black.
Yep.
If they have metallic values. So you have to and you have to trick Unity because Unity doesn't have a way to bake metallic probes. Um
yeah,
so and if I'm wrong, let me know in the comments um if people are listening just

because I want to learn and I want to know. But that's my experience. Another big optimization that something I just didn't know about actually until like this last year was um my thought process was that like if a point light uh like obviously way out here at the edge of your point light is when it's you're it's not really going to be affecting anything. But my thought was like
like right now this this big cliff mesh here is getting rerendered by this light because they're touching. And my thought was that like if the light doesn't touch the mesh at all then it doesn't rerender it. And that is not correct. If the light, if any part of this circle touches the bounding box of this mesh, which would be
wow,
which would basically be like, oh god, I didn't mean to do that. Which would basically be like a big like if you think of it like a giant square, the bounding box, if any part of it touches the bounding box, which means that before this entire map, all of this terrain was one mesh because it's it's relatively low poly. So like this entire mesh was like 1,700 triangles. And

that's not a big deal until every single point light in the map is rerendering it. And so suddenly this 1700 triangle mesh is getting rendered 60 times and then more with shadows. And so then it turns into like 100k at any given time. I'm losing 100,000 triangles to to just the terrain. And so like the terrain wound up getting broken up into multiple meshes that are all oluded separately. And and like that was a huge optimization. I just had didn't know it worked that way. So like real-time lighting, I love working with real-time lighting because it's like what you see is what you get. You don't have to sit through eight hour long, 20 hour long bake times only for there to be some artifact you have to go and clean up and do it all over again.
Exactly.
And then like and then like you said, you lose a lot of that real time specular metallic data which is really frustrating.
Yep. I uh what's so funny is I spent three months maybe with Felipe

learning light mapping and implementing it to every single level.
Uhhuh.
And by implementing what we had to do was we had to mark all of the correct objects as static
because you can't light map things that aren't static.
Y
and that's a huge undertaking. Um and then and then we also had to place all of our probes also. Yeah, we have like let's say 200 lights in a scene. We have to mark the ones that are baked as baked, the ones that are mixed as mixed. And by the way, mix for the people who don't know mixed lighting is the shadows can be dynamic. Um but the light source itself cannot I think. Okay.
I think I think it's that the light contributes to um
that's also correct. GI. But
so like like if I if this barrel fire here were were mixed then it it would apply to the baked map but then it would also apply real time to dynamic objects.
That's right. That's right. Um and then

also finally you have to figure out what you want to be.
I think that's how it works. [laughter]
Well for us to know everything would be ridiculous expectation. But we I I'm going off of memory here. And then finally you you have your dynamic lights or your real-time lights which can be can move and and they affect all objects including static objects.
So we we did all of that only to find that the real culprit was shadows. That was the real culprit. And so all I did was I turned off all the shadows except for a few that were important.
And I had people say, "Oh, Thomas, that's terrible. Don't do that." But then I'd have testers play the game and they had no idea that the shadows were even off.
You want to see how I because I same conclusion realizing that when I'm when I'm pushing 2.8 million triangles on fairgrounds that almost half of it is shadows and it's like this is fairgrounds the biggest map of chapter 2. It's a monster. But so what I did which which is like the same kind of cheat was I was like okay well when you

are running this map there is a fog that limits your render distance because it's a it's snowing. It's supposed to be like a snowy map. B, I am cheating because I don't want to render more than I have to. And like all of these big orange cubes, these are all giant occlusion volumes that are just blocking your view of different parts of the map [laughter] to to like brute force because like cuz like when you're walking around on the ground level, you can like see through these fences. You can see through these trees.
So what I also found out was instead of turning off shadows altogether, you can limit how far away they render. And so this fog at like 50 meters away from the player, you can't see through this fog. So I just made it so shadows don't render past 50 meters away.
Do you know what your draw distance is for your shadows are right now?
Uh in this map it's 50 mters is what it's clamped to.
That's what it is in in Twisted Tower. It's it's a 50 or 60.
Yeah.
This is why for everybody most people know this, but if you don't know this, it's a fun little fun fact why so many 90s games loved fog, right? And early 2000s games. This is why like High Fog

feels nostalgic. It's because they're they have to use it. They have to callull things out at a very close distance.
Yeah.
So, Silent Hill must have been an easy game to make at least when it comes to like optimization because they just had dense fog, you know, 20 30 meters away from the player.
Yeah. And like and and definitely the quote unquote I guess right thing to do, you know, would have been to go through and individually all of these meshes like make sure that everything so like a a lot of the meshes in this map are combined so that they're only doing one like if if there's like if you're in this area there's no way that you're like not going to be seeing these buildings and so they're just merged together because what you in in game in optimization at least in Unity you've got what you call draw calls which is basically ally every time the if you if you think of your GPU as like you know like an artist with like a paint palette and every time you want to change colors he has to like wash his brush off change to a different brush and then paint and that's kind of what a draw call is. It's basically the GPU putting its current

tool down
and picking up a different one. And so these houses altogether are the same amount of triangles either way. But it can either be one draw call where it just draws all of them at once and then the GPU is done. Or it can be the GPU has to switch tools every single time. And there's probably some there's probably like a graphics programmer out there who's like what an idiot. That is not how it works.
That that is so true. What you both things you said are true. I I believe what you said about the draw calls are true. There is always there is always someone who knows understands draw calls better. Oh, sure.
Because I've had I've had meetings with adviserss with optimization. I'm like, please help me understand draw calls.
And so, we'll sit and we'll do a whole meeting about how to optimize draw calls and I'll do everything that they said to do
and we'll we'll merge meshes, all this stuff. And then the draw calls are the same.
It's like, what is happening? So, all I found was the the if you want lowhanging fruit with optimization,
kill the shadows. kill them and just do one light

that has a really cool shadow. Like for example, a shadow of that Christmas tree.
Yeah, shadow.
This area used to have like like each of these strands of lights had its own point not not each bulb, but each each line had its own point light and then the tree had its own point light and then these lamps had their own point light and then these barrels had their own point light. And so when you walk into this area, your frame rate just like gets cut in half.
[laughter]
Um, and and just because it's like you have to render like all of this stuff. You have to render all these props. And Cultic's voxal models are really expensive because they have a lot of little triangles in there. Um, and so this like this area was tough. And so it it came down to like meshing all of these together so that they render one time and they they aren't because otherwise it's like every single point light that touches these renders them. Um, but there's times you don't want to do that. Like let's fly. I'm gonna turn lighting back off. I fly way over here. Um, we'll do like um like I don't remember. Okay, so these houses are all

cold. These ones are not all combined together because in this case, if you're standing right here, you can't see any of these buildings. And so these can be cold out separately. Yes.
But if you're standing over here, you can see these ones, but like you know, you might not necessarily be able to see this one or this one. Um, and so like this was a situation where it didn't really seem like no matter where I stood here when they were all meshed together, I was never saving anything. But because of how tall these tents are and how tall these buildings are and how tall these trees are, quite frequently I could be in a spot where I only have to render one of these buildings at a time. Like if I'm standing here, I only need to render like these maybe these two buildings because I can't see these at all.
Um, and so in that case, merging these together wasn't saving me anything.
Yeah. Uh, but yeah, this map this map sucked to to optimize. It took so many passes.
Can we can we shift gears and take a look at an interior? Because interiors are different.
Yeah.
At least in my experience.
By the way, I wanted to say

uh it's going to when Twisted Tower comes out, it's going to look like I ripped you off. Okay. I'm just going to say it out loud.
We have a level called Fairground Forest, and we made it a year and a half ago.
Uhhuh. Um, so either one of us ripped each other off or neither of us did, which that's my assumption.
We conspired together to rip each other off.
So I have a forest level in Twisted Tower, which is like carnival tents and stuff.
Yeah.
So I'm sorry if it looks that way, but that's what
everybody every game inspires something else.
Well, I didn't see this is what I'm saying. I had no idea.
I had no idea.
I I believe you. Don't worry. So [laughter] we'll do So we'll go the opposite direction. So, the fairgrounds was this massive, sprawling, wide open map. And then the this is the manor, which is Nick's baby. This was pretty much his map. That was
Does Nick like Castlevania 64?
Nick loves Resident Evil.
Uh, so
this feels like the villa in Castlevania 64, but go ahead.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, so like I I decorated it, did the texturing, set up

the encounters, blah blah blah, but the layout was was all was all him. I'm going to I'm going to turn the auto map off so we can so we can see what we're looking at. Um,
it looks so good, Jason. I love this Victorian flare.
Oh,
yeah. And, uh, and this map was like almost all original assets. Like all like almost everything in the manor I had to make for the manor. Like I didn't have these wooden doors or this wooden trim or the cuz like everything in Cultic up to this point had mostly been like rundown dilapidated structures. Um, but then we're like, okay, well, if we want to make a fancy a fancy Resident Evil mansion, like I we're just gonna have to make a bunch of stuff. Uh, but so yeah, we'll do we'll do in editor here for this.
Yeah, I want to see how it looks. And then can you talk to us eventually about how I'm going to assume that this is not all modular?
Turn the pallet back on.
Uh, no, that would have been that would have been
a lot a lot of Unreal developers, and I hate to call out Unreal developers, everything's modular. Mhm.
They've got like a billion walls that

are making a room.
Mhm.
Um, and I would love to talk about how you're putting this together. I'm sure some of it's modular.
A lot of a lot of it's dressing and a lot of it is just big fat meshes, man.
Um, for an entire hallway or an entire room is an entire, you know, mesh. This looks incredible, dude. Oh, I love this aesthetic. See, this is what I was talking about earlier. Now, don't throw your I'm not saying you're going to, but don't don't don't forget what your forte is. This looks so good, dude. Yeah, we the manor was a ton of fun. Um, but so the manor is like the opposite. I'm going to leave leave play mode again so I get some frame rate back. The manor is like is the polar opposite of um actually I lied. Uh I can I can show you this in the auto map and then you'll actually see what the layout looks like.
Oh, sweet. You want to show off your auto map?
I do. Well, it's easier than trying to look through all the ceilings and and triggers and uh so we'll just do a full map reveal here. And I could turn the automat back on would also help a lot with that because I switched it off so

we can see.
Oh, right. Yeah, you need that.
Yeah, turning automat back on is a is a big help. And then I have to re I have to re-reveal it and then remaximize my view. [laughter] Okay, so here is here's the manor and it's all unexplored. So, it's all a dark color, but so this is the extremely tight interior of the manor. Like that dining room that I was just showing off, that is that is this room here. I'm going to increase the size of my culling here. Um, so that's the the dining room that we were just in is this little the relatively small room here.
Yeah.
And then we're uh I'll turn the mask back off. So that and then this is the the whole of the manor. So it's very tight, very compact, lot of rooms. Surprisingly, it's a pretty linear map all things considered. But yeah, so this is and this is just what Nick is really good at is like just like connecting box to box to box to box
and just like throwing these areas together. That's just like
well if he likes Resident Evil, it explains a lot, you know, because the the the whole fun of Resident Evil is

I guess backtracking and and going to old rooms that you remember, you know, and revisiting areas. It's so exciting. And then it's still got an outdoor segment. So we still got to play around with like some some
directional light or is it just ambient lighting?
Uh there is there is a a directional for outdoors for getting
turn on.
Uh yes. So like I wanted to be able to I wanted to be able to get these shadows through this lattice. And so like that I had to get from a directional light. But yeah, if you're like inside certain zones of the manor, like if you're in a room like this, u this light zone
will disable the directional light because you can't see it and it the directional light creates a bajillion shadows no matter what.
Well, show me really quick, Jason, how you're putting this level together. What are the various chunks and pieces?
Yeah, so there is a lot of stuff that is prefabbed um in terms of decorations. Like let's uh let's go in here. So like this table is a prefab. These suits of armors are prefabs. So like at any at any point in time um you know for prop

work I can drag a uh you know I can drag one of these in here and put it put it wherever and and cost myself a bunch of frames because these voxels have a bajillion triangles in them.
Um but then like the map itself is what we used real time CSG for. Um and I have to convert it back to a a usable model real quick which Unity is really going to enjoy. Okay. So when it's when it's in an edible state, this these are all brushes. So this so this you can just kind of like click and drag and it's all it's all boolean. So like if I wanted to add a window here that looked outside,
you just and make a box and I drag it out and hey, look, now I've got a window. And of course, I still have to texture it and and uh you know, would have to redo collisions for it. But this workflow of just being able to like punch a door or a window wherever is awesome for a game like this. The downside being that besides real-time CSG being unsupported and really buggy now is that you are kind of limited to this kind of low relatively low poly

geometry like um uh let me let me pull up a tab here of um like the the hammer editor. So the hammer editor that Valve uses for source games is is is very similar. It's it is also brushbased. Um, but of course this was used to make like Left for Dead. Um, actually, let's see if they
explain explain to people listening what you mean by brushbased,
right? So, um, it's, uh, every single one of these shapes is called is is referred to as a brush. Stop selecting my light zones. Stop it. [laughter] That's that's the other problem. These big triggers is like, did you want to click on this? No, I didn't click on that.
Um, okay. I'm just going to disable all these light zones because they're killing me.
Um, so like Yeah. So like each this this this room. Oh my lord, stop selecting my triggers. Like every single shape here. So like this shape here is a big subtractive brush. So like this dining

room. So Nick did all these and his workflow is a little different than mine, but like this dining room here probably started as one big additive cube.
Yes.
Um and then this is a smaller subtractive brush that cuts out from the middle of it. And then like these pillars are additive cylinders, but they are also brushes. So this is boolean geometry where you're just adding and subtracting versus like ProBuilder um or or modeling in Blender where you're like you you are permanently changing geometry. Like if you wanted to
if you wanted to cut that window out of this wall in this case where you're just you can you're this is what we would call constru that's what CSG stands for. I think it's constructive solid geometry. Yeah.
Is because it's constructive. It's kind of like working with layers in Photoshop. Instead of directly painting onto something, I can paint onto a layer and I can move that layer around. I can edit that layer and or I can just delete it and my base product is not changed.
The end result will likely be the same as the end

result of a ProBuilder mesh in the sense that how it's being achieved is using loop cuts and extrusions and and cutting off faces and stuff,
right? But but it it means that it's non-destructive. Now, do you end up do you end up um baking it basically and and and removing the brushes?
Well, so the brushes stay like they exist, but yeah, when you're done, there's um there's this export to Unity mesh and that basically turns it into it basically takes every material, so every different texture, and turns that into its own mesh. And so that's how I go through and assign like collision materials so that when you're walking on this wooden floor, it plays wooden floor sound effects because that floor is tagged as a wooden object. And so like the hammer editor like Left 4 Dead for example, if you like we'll look at this screenshot. So like this big like air conditioning unit, these boxes on the wall, this air conditioner up here, the the stairwell, those are all prefabs.

And and Colt uses some of this too. Like I have um I have stairs because stairs are are a nightmare to do using brushes. So like I have like this like little like wooden stair or metal stairs prefab that I use. And so that is just a mesh and I and so they're aligned on a grid so I can just snap them together super quickly whenever Unity unfreezes. But um yeah, so like I have prefabs like that I can use because there's some stuff like like this. I'm not going to build this suit of armor out of brushes. That's that would be a mess. like I'm not going to build, you know, like some of this stuff out of meshes or out out of brushes. Um, and so that's kind of but then like this building here, even though it has like a high deaf texture with like normal mapping, it's a cube. Like you can see it's a cube. Um, you know, like like this this this helicopter pad, it's a cube. This building is a cube.
And so um that's where you go back. I don't know if they have like a editor view of it, but yeah, like hammer editor is is is a more a more capable version of real-time CSG. And so I would love to use a tool like this. and and Unreal is getting one in the form of the scythe

editor, which is awesome. And I'm super jealous that they get to have that.
Golly, where is Unity? Gosh.
Oh, yeah. Here's a here's a here's like a Left 4 Dead custom map that you can see. And so like you can see here like this is a building and it's like it's a cube and it's a triangle roof.
Um and yeah, it's a and this is looking at it in a very uh chaotic view, but
yes,
but it's it's the same thing. So yeah, um Unity or sorry, Cultic does I do use prefabs. I do have stuff, you know, like this that that's a prefab. I made it in Blender. I just drag it and drop it here. But when it comes to building rooms and and and cutting out doorways and and just iterating on that, all of this is brush work. Because trying to do this, we're like
if we were doing this in Blender and I decided instead of this room just having a flat square corner, I'm going to add these these two pillars and this and this this diagonal and I'm going to add this rounded platform. If I decided I didn't like any of that and I don't have enough undo states to go backwards or I didn't save a backup of it, I have to like delete all of these vertices and

reconnect these and redo all the UV mapping. But with this constructive solid geometry with brushes, I just delete the brushes and then it's back to where it was before, which is super duper helpful. But I don't know how well that will scale to a high de like I don't know how well you could even do this with like twisted tower, you know, like to where you're saying
this is the same thing. In fact, I I I was gonna argue with you about that. Actually, you mentioned earlier, you were like, I don't know how helpful this would be for a high fidelity game, right?
I think high fidelity games are doing the same thing.
Yeah.
I think they're starting with ceilings, floors, and walls, and that's it's all just flat. It's either quads or cubes.
Mhm.
And you you the set dressing is what make that that the texture fidelity and the set dressing is what makes it look good.
Yeah. But dude, I there are so many asset packs on the Unity asset store and also the Unreal whatever the Unreal asset store is where the walls, ceilings, and floors are the prefab are also prefabs.
Sure.

And that is the a nightmare to work with. Um and so to everybody listening, you've got to start with a base mesh that is similar to what um Jayce is doing. Well, and I think like I think like even like Elder Scrolls, I think like in like Skyrim even I don't know if I could find a good picture of it, but a lot of their a lot of like Skyrim's dungeons like the caves are also modular. Like they just have these like like these like rocky tunnels and ceilings and they and they kind of just like stitch them together and that's how they make, you know, all of these instances like so quickly, you know, like you can look at I think this is this is not from Skyrim. Maybe it is. But it's like a lot of it when you if you like if you like break it down into assets, it's uh it's a lot of large boulders and large uh you know like just like generic ground pieces like outdoors like we'll take this example like the like there there is a terrain mesh here that is the flat outdoor terrain but then like this cave is like like this rock here is probably a prefab. This rock is a prefab. These little these

little cliffs that stick out are prefabs and it's all just sitting on a te on a terrain mesh and the textures are blended together in a way that makes it look like this is all just like one handmodeled thing.
That's right. And so yeah, I mean there's just like a middle ground because like for a lot of Twisted Tower or any game like cuz like I said like Left 4 Dead which you I mean that was a 360 era game and so it's definitely not like a retro shooter but when if you if you kind of stand back and look at it
a lot of the like the rooms like you said about set dressing like this room I'm standing in it looks like a like a living room in in an apartment but if if I like mentally delete the furniture and and the light fixtures and everything it is it's a square. like the room is a cube. Um, and then it's just between like the textures on the walls have molding like you like molding on the top and bottom and then like the floor has like garbage textures on it to make it look like it's cluttered and then you've got furniture and you and so
yeah. So like I don't know. I would really I would love to keep using real-time CSG but unfortunately it

supposedly it doesn't work at all in Unity 6.
I would say whatever your decision is just from experience using ProBuilder which is destructive. It's not a boolean based
uh level designer. I would say do it. Use boolean based. That's amazing. I I can't believe we made Twisted Tower without this tool. I don't know what we were thinking.
Um well, it definitely it definitely has it definitely has its downsides, especially cuz like like to give an example, like this little door molding thing, right? Like this would have been a gigantic pain in the butt to build for every single doorway. And so that I was like, "No, I'm just going to model it in Blender and and use it as a prefab." And so like the higher fidelity your game world is, the more often you'll have to do stuff like that. And I imagine there's a certain point where it's not worth it to do to do CSG anymore because like you're just like it's like every other thing you do, you're having to build from scratch. Well, this [clears throat] is this is what I kind of disagree with you and I don't know

what the industry standard is, especially AAA, but uh boolean the whole reason boolean is effective is because it allows for iterative level design.
Yeah, that's true.
You're never going to get you're never going to get a good idea of what your if your level design is perfect until like you're not going to get it right the first time is what I'm saying.
Yeah.
And so you need to be able to adjust and change things. But anyway, dude, I've got a pee.
[laughter]
You've been holding it for three hours, huh?
I have. But this has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so so so much for your time. Every time you come on, it's so much fun. I mean, obviously, this is the longest podcast I've done. This by far this one's the longest one. So, congratulations.
Yeah, you you can't you can't have Midwesterners on here and expect me to [laughter] not not talk for forever.
I know. I love it. All right, man. Well, hey, what do you want in the the description? You want any links in the description?
Uh, you know what? I think I think we're good for now. You can if you've got my Twitter link in there, we'll be good. I'm
You don't want chapter two in there?

No. Well, we'll let we'll let people they can play chapter one first and then we'll they'll decide if they want to play chapter two.
So, especially with especially with the warning they've gotten now that it is it is scarier and harder and not exactly the same experience.
Cool. All right, man. Uh thank you so much for your time.
Yeah, it's always fun chatting. We'll talk to you later. Bye.