How My Game Made $150,000 With NO EXPERIENCE — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 012

Mr. Chris, how you doing, buddy? Doing great. How have you been? Really, really good. We're insanely busy because we're trying to wrap up Twisted Tower, which is our first-person shooter. Right. And it's like going from 2D to 3D, and you're making a 2D game. Um, if you ever want to make a 3D game, reach out to me, and I'll just warn you about the thousands of things that are different. It's a totally different beast. Yeah, there's 3 years, and it's just been We're wrapping up development, and it's exhausting. So, yeah. Cool. I think we had a similar production pipeline or timeline. Cuz we've been at it for about 3 years, too. So, interesting. Have you, really? Yeah. Coming on 3 years. tell Tell Tell everybody listening what you're working on, and what you've been working on for 3 freaking years. That's crazy. Cool. Well, um, first off First off, I'm Chris Stair, and I'm the creative director of Squids Shock Studios, which is a studio that I started with my partner, Trevor.

And we are working on a Metroidvania called Bo: Path of the Teal Lotus, which is approaching the end of production right now, and we have a release date, which is going to be July 18th. Uh, 2024. So, Nice. Coming soon. It's a beautiful game, and if anyone's listening, he wants to wish list The link is below. Um, and it looks It's got Hollow Knight vibes, which I'm sure you get that all the time. Um, We do. which is good, right? Are you worried about people expecting Hollow Knight? I think initially, I mean, Hollow Knight is such a huge uh, thing, like, game to live up to. So, um, if I I don't There are definitely people who are like, "Oh, this game is Hollow Knight in Japan." And that makes me a little nervous, cuz, um, Yeah. obviously, Hollow Knight is almost a uh, for for for I know they were first-time game developers, but for other first-time game developers, it's

actually an insane thing that they were able to pull off. Um that I think is kind of an unrealistic standard for most for 99.99% of first-time game devs. Um it's truly an unrealistic standard to live up to. Um so, you know, I think people will find that our game is unique in its own way. And um you know, like it for what it is rather than comparing it to Hollow Knight. That being said, we love the Hollow Knight community, and obviously a lot of them are interested in our game tangentially because of that. Well, the reason I bring it up is cuz like uh Twisted Tower, everyone's like, "Oh, this looks like BioShock." And that that's our game that we're working on. And it's constant. It's like all day, every day. BioShock, BioShock, BioShock, BioShock, BioShock. And I'll be honest, I don't even know what we could do differently to make it not look like BioShock. It's just ingrained in me because I like I like 1920s, 1930s. All my games are 1930s. I like bloom, I like

post-processing effects, I like fog. I like smoke and and vignettes and sepia tones. And so, it just comes out and just sort of bathes the game in this BioShock atmosphere. Yeah, I I think at this point I'm just at this point I'm just kind of like uh it is what it is, you know? I'm worried that people are going to expect BioShock, and I'm like, I hope you know that it we're a two two full-timers with some part-timers. I hope you know, everybody, that we're not we're not making the a full AAA BioShock experience. You know? And I think a lot of those comparisons come from people It's a younger crowd, and they are probably literally not even familiar with art deco. They don't They don't even see that as something that existed before video games did. It's like their only reference frame of reference is BioShock, so that's kind of why Yeah. Yeah. They go that route. Hey friend, I want to see you succeed as a game developer. I want to see you make a full-time salary as a game developer.

See, the thing is most game developers don't know how to actually make money with their game and believe it or not, you can actually make a full-time salary with just a demo. I've done this three freaking times. And I'm going to teach you exactly how to do that. Make a full-time salary with just a demo. Click the link below. It's a webinar, totally free, no gimmicks here. Check it out, watch the whole thing, you're going to learn a ton. You're going to learn how to make six figures with just a demo. Cheers. So, let's talk about this. So, so that's one aspect of potentially being nervous about launch, which is are you going to Are you going to Are you going to meet the hype? Are you going to Cuz there is hype around your game and Humble Bundle's doing a really good job promoting it and Humble Bundle Humble Bundle or Humble Humble Games is your publisher. Yeah, Humble Games, yeah. Yeah. So, you mentioned before this call that you're feeling kind of nervous about launch. Tell me about that. What's What are you nervous about? It's a nervous excitement. I think for the past you know, near the end of product production, the

the vibe of the game development changes quite drastically. You're no longer as in engine as much. It's not so much of that trailblazing creative endeavor that it usually is. Um you're not like trying to solve all these problems. It becomes It's a little bit of a quiet before the storm. The storm being release. Um in which you're just like In our case, we're localizing. Um just doing a lot of like fixing typos. Uh as well as porting, which I'm not actually involved in as much other than just doing the QA for the porting and making sure everything looks good and runs well. So, it's a little bit of a quiet before the storm and during that those quiet times, you have a lot of time to think about everything that could possibly go wrong, right? And I found myself in the past like 2 months or whatever getting kind of lost in all the numbers. Like I found this website called Video Game Insights. You You must be aware of. I'm not. I'm not.

Well, maybe you know, maybe you go on there and you you start getting a little bit addicted to it because what it is it's it's this database where you can look at games and see their estimated amount of owners and estimated revenue even. So, it'd be actually interesting to check that check your own games out on that to see like how accurate it is. Okay, let's do it right now. I'm going to pull up I'm Yeah, I'm going to do it right now. Do I have to sign in? Oh, no. It's just Yeah, just Video Game Insights. I'll tell you if it's accurate. Cool. Cool. Cool. Okay, so I'm looking at Pinstripe here. Uh gross revenue it says $752,000. Um it's close. Interesting. Yeah. It's a little I think it might be overshooting. Um let's take a look up Never Song. Um Never Song is actually undershooting. So, I would say the margin of error for my games is somewhere around 20%. Okay. So, there you go. There's some more insights for you. Yes. Yeah, obviously I'm I'm I was

actually pretty sure that it wasn't you know, probably like within that 20% uh margin. But, um Yeah, anyway, I'm like on this website kind of like looking up games that are uh probably just games that I know of, right? And you you kind of look at these games that you were very aware of, that you perhaps even enjoyed a lot, and maybe see that they didn't perform as well as you thought. Right. like, "Wow, this game is amazing and it didn't really succeed as like how you how I thought it might have." What are some similar games that you've been looking up? Oh my god. I've looked up every game, like that is relevant. Well, I'm I'm looking I'm looking up the first comp, which is Hollow Knight. So, it looks like you're going to make around $63 million, Chris. Right, yeah. That'd be nice. Um yeah, games, you know, just games um popular more popular indie games that

came out in the last uh three or three to five years, and Yeah. Seeing that, yeah. Okay, so what about um what's one that's 2D that's similar to yours, platformy type games? I'm trying to think of some. Um Well, there's definitely um want to like call out like the devs here and like blast them about uh I know. I'm going to blast Hades right now. Okay. No, I just want to see. I'm just looking up Hades here. Okay. Hades is fine. Hades is great. That's a ton of money, $131 million. Wow. Wow. Holy crap. Okay, anyway, so yeah. You're looking up the numbers, cuz now you're going from creative mode to business mode. Exactly. Wow, that's a good way to put it, yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Kind of shifted into marketing mode, business mode, yeah. Um you know, I I at the end of the day, like I you know, I do believe this, that I

just want to make enough money to be able to continue doing it, and obviously, it'd be nice to have like a nice little surplus to kind of maybe upgrade my lifestyle, a little like slightly, not get out of control. Um but ultimately, I just wanted I want as many people to enjoy it and have fun playing it as possible. So. Yeah. Seems to be like on the right track. For sure. So, you know, you're nervous about the money side. That's probably I feel like that's very normal. And if you're not thinking about money, you're not thinking about Well, look, you're going to When are you launching? Are you allowed to tell us? Uh July 18th. July 18th, okay. So, you're launching in July. Um so, you're literally thinking, "Okay, am I going to be able to survive in August?" That's kind of the thought process? Um I'm not necessarily like worried that short-term um cuz we did have kind of a little bit of a surplus from the funds that we did receive, so we'll be good.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just more of a I think like other members of the team, especially my partner, who we kind of like own the studio together, he might perhaps be like expecting a certain amount. I don't know. I just worry more about people like who are in my orbit that that I have to pay rather than myself like honestly. Exactly. No, I I I feel the same way. I feel you, you know, it's when you start building a a full-on studio as opposed to owning a job, you're you're owning a business, right? A lot of indie game developers own a job, and that's totally fine. That's totally fine. Owning a owning your own job is great, you know, it's just you and and you only have to pay you. The moment you have full-time team, and they've got a wife and kids, and they've got a mortgage, it's an it's a weird cuz I've got that feeling right now. It's a weird feeling knowing

not only do I have to provide for my family, my own family, I have to provide it's that you provide Well, it is and it isn't. Like you're you are providing an income for other people as well. I in the sense that you're you're steering the ship, you know? Right. And so, that's why launch is so freaking important because it's this it's this final lap where you've got to run your best race possible. Um Yeah. And you're already so far you're so already exhausted that Oh, yeah. Yeah, I feel I felt exhausted um you know, approaching this final lap and it's like, okay, you just really got to do it. Are you Do you still like your game? Wow. It's a love-hate relationship in all honesty. It really is because Yeah, it is. It is. It has been the source of my purpose for the past 3 years and I love Some days I

love waking up and knowing that I have some this creative endeavor to like invest completely into and other days I'm like resentful that I have to do this instead of go to the beach or whatever. Or you know, that's just an example or hang out have a social life which I found I'm being honest quite suffered quite immensely during development. You know, not it's not like tragic or anything, but it's just like it definitely a difference when you have this relationship It's a relationship that you have with your game. You know, it's a baby that you always need to be tending to. Yeah. So Well, I mean, the thing is is that for me, I won't speak for you, but maybe you can confirm this or deny it. For me there is I don't think there's ever a moment where my head isn't somewhere in the game. Yeah. Even when I'm outside of it. Yeah.

And you know, our game is called Twisted Tower and so I tell my team all the time I'm like I tell I tell Felipe I say he's the 3D artist I say, dude, you've been living inside this tower. It's a creepy like um kind of like Cinderella's castle kind of place. And I say, you've been living inside of this tower for 3 years. And he'll tell me that even he I mean, he's not he's not the the the director of the project, so there's not as much pressure. But he'll tell me that he can't get out of that tower. Like even at night when he's trying to sleep, he's thinking about how do I fix this and how do I fix that and it's like it's like your brain is like constantly firing on all cylinders all day and night. Yeah. And I don't know if you felt that way. I've absolutely felt that way and I I don't know if you felt this way, but like when I feel like when I'm on in the game working on the game, I'm thinking about about my like actual life and what I should be accomplishing outside of the game. And

when I'm spending time with like my family or my friends, I'm absolutely thinking about the game. So it's like Yeah. You can never focus truly on uh what's in front of you it feels like sometimes. For sure. And what I've learned so this is I'm on my eighth year making indie games full-time. What I've learned is that you don't have to let your brain be in control. Like it this is true with creativity. I a friend of mine started making indie games, okay? And he's married and has kids. And he came up to me and said, "I can't do this anymore." I was like, "Why?" And he just said, "When I'm with my kids, I'm not thinking about my kids." Yeah. And it's impossible for me not to. Mhm. It's just that's the way my brain is. I said, "Everybody's brain, I don't know what it is about making games in particular." I Let us know in the chat if you're listening. Whoever's listening, if you know this feeling. There is something

some par- some phenomenon that happens with making indie games where you can't stop thinking about it. And I've learned that you don't just have to let your brain be in control. Like it is possible to control your brain and get out of that obsessive mindset. And I think it's necessary because that mindset isn't I don't feel like it's healthy for your game. Do you? Like is it good to be thinking about your game that much? Doesn't this Isn't this going to cause Bo to become a bloated mess? I think it's I think it hurts more than it helps, but I do think it's necessary in the creative process. To be honest, you need a little bit of pain or chaotic energy sometimes to to get you through it. Just a little bit. But it needs to be balanced. When was the chaotic energy the most intense? Wow, I think like pretty

like in the middle in the middle of development where we kind of had the vertical slice, we had a few areas, and then I started to have to think about designing the rest of the game, which means like how do we get to the end? We kind of know where it starts, where it begins, and we know a little bit of the beginning. How do we get to the end? Um, you know, that involved like four additional areas, however many additional bosses, and at that point it became this every day I would just have like a lack of confidence about uh what which path to take, you know, I I don't know if you experience decision paralysis where you you you just you see all the choice all the paths ahead of you and you just can't move. Um, so so that was kind of um I remember very clearly we were designing an area called the ice caverns. And I would just you know, like for like 2 weeks straight sit down at my computer and say, "Okay, we're designing ice caverns today." And just trashing ideas

left and right over and over. Um Yeah. Yeah. But eventually it clicked. I know it Yeah, eventually it clicks. Um What's funny about Twisted Tower is what we're trying to avoid with that game, this is kind of a tangent, but it's similar to what you're saying. What we're trying to avoid with Twisted Tower is a lot of times you choose this, especially with linear storytelling games, but you're making a Metroidvania, so it's a little bit easier. I Would you call it a Metroidvania, by the way? Yeah, it's it's Metroidvania lightish, yeah, but it is a Metroidvania. Right. And so for me though, with like more linear like shooter games like Half-Life or BioShock, which is what we're sort of marketing to, um the problem is those games aren't streamable. Well, I mean they are, but it's like you know, one streamer plays it, they get basically the same experience as everybody else. It's just you know, you might get a head shot versus a leg shot.

Uh you might die more, but like overall you're getting basically the same linear experience. So and it's similar to what you're saying with the ice caverns, which is like I've got to make a decision on on this level and how the player's going to experience it because I want it to be like perfect for the player. And uh for me, what we decided to do is I don't know if this is going to pay off, Chris, but what we decided to do was let's just make two paths for every single level. So like imagine Half-Life, but you can pick different doors and take it takes you down a completely different area of the level and you could beat that level. And they're they're they're permanent decisions. So what we decided with Twisted Tower was you're presented with two doors at the very beginning of every level and you have to pick one door or the other. And going down that path is completely different. And so if we if you have 10 levels, but each level has two to four different paths, you get these crazy combinations per stream. Oh, wow. So one stream So I think it's brilliant,

but I think it might be a terrible idea, too. I don't know. Um So the idea is to avoid uh streams getting stale. You know what I mean? Right. And have you done the math on how many different combinations that was going to end up being? I mean, I don't know how to do that math, you know. know either. I'm terrible with this. I I would assume you're multiplying it times it's uh times itself. Like um It must be like a permutation type It's a it's something exponential. It's more than 20. It's more than 20. Like if I got 10 levels with two paths, 20, it's more than 20. Um it's something exponential. a really high number like I think so. Yeah. Interesting. So So anyway, that that for me helped our decision paralysis because we're always like, well, this path maybe someone won't choose it and at least they get all these other different paths in other levels. So you it gives you this flexibility of like not worrying so much about the perfect level. Um but that for sure decision paralysis

has been a real problem with me as we approach launch. Um I don't know if your decision paralysis got worse as you approach launch. Well, it it went away once we decided that the game was finished, right? And now we're just doing all the boring like logistical stuff. So the decision process is completely gone. But it was really bad while it was there. Like Yeah, it was terrible. What What was driving it? Um I think a little bit of my I am like ADHD, adult ADHD. So I think I don't know if we want to go into that, but that that also great. Let's do it. Yeah, that really affected me and I was actually diagnosed like because I was making the game and I started to like realize because it wasn't as um apparent before, but once I got into a more direct director role, um it became very clear that there was something stopping me from um

or I would just be uh switching tasks like um very like I was very fidgety with switching tasks. I would never complete a certain task and it would just go it would just be an infinite cascade of like switching tasks and never finishing a single one. So, um, once once I identified that I was able to like, you know, once you know that you have like you know what your issue is, you can start really taking steps. There's all kinds of great resources out there to help like uh, manage yourself if you know, you know, what what your problem is. So, uh, that helped but also like um, I got um, I I got help from like game designers. Um, so we brought on another game designer at some point. Um, his name is Milton Guasti who worked on Ori and the Will of the Wisps. And when yeah, and when he came on he opened my eyes like like it he is a consummate professional.

The way, um, you know, when we when I speak with him and the questions he asks and how he's able to digest everything and kind of create these very detailed game design documents based off of all my input and stuff. And his ability to block out, just creativity it it just comes with his experience. Also, he's a probably innately very talented. Um, but you know, he's been having that person with that kind of experience join the team also really showed me how to organize things a lot and like the correct the so to speak correct way to design a game. Sure. I don't think that most well, game developers but artists just artists in general, I don't think they realize how much help a lot of our heroes get. Yeah. So, one of my heroes is Danny Elfman. Um, the the composer for a lot of Tim Burton films. Love him. All all Tim Burton films.

Uh, I'm pretty sure every single one. And I was doing a little bit of research on him and he he will sort of just free flow. He'll feel it out and just plug in MIDI instruments, software instruments on his computer. So I'm like, oh he's doing what I do. Like he he he's not like writing it on paper, you know, and and at a piano scoring his music. He's plugging it onto a computer and then what he does is he gets a composer, a professional I don't know what you call them. Um someone who can a transposer or something. They get transposed onto the onto paper and then orchestrate it. So he's hiring someone to orchestrate it and he's not even orchestrating the orchestra. Right. So literally he's just sitting there in his office plugging away on a computer and then it all this stuff happens after the fact. But he's

the impetus and he's the mind behind it. And I look at you and I go, man, I you know, I wouldn't want to I don't I don't know you that well, so I would just say if if I was diagnosed with ADHD, which my wife says I probably would be, I just haven't gone to the doctor about it. And part of the reason why is about what I'm about to say, which is there is some kind of strange benefit to being wild minded. Yeah. Um where it's like like it's like fireworks constantly. It does. about that. If you can get someone to cap catch it into like almost like it's a a rain funnel. Yeah. And that's what you got. You got someone to capture those crazy ideas and orchestrate them and organize them. That is awesome and that's what makes a great creative a director. Someone who can like spitball all these crazy ideas and it's like every day it's something different. If you can have a team member who what you would call them a gatekeeper. A gatekeeper is somebody who comes in is a personality type that I learned about.

Somebody who's like stands at the gate and they say, "Okay, I know that Thomas is is kind of nuts. I know that Chris has all these crazy ideas. So, I'm going to have my legal pad and I'm going to write down what's going to work for our project schedule, what's not, and what's good game design, what's not good game design, and I'm going to organize this into something that actually can be produced. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean creative energy is quite often really chaotic. And it sounds like you just described a babysitter, by the way. Like basically us uh like this precocious child who uh like can't do anything by himself and needs like you know, in the best way possible, needs to like funnel that like it's it's a very special almost mm This sounds so pretentious, but mystical like uh inspiration that comes to certain people and um I think like in in the creative mind, there's there's just so many connections beaming all the time that um

often times it takes a third party to kind of look at what's like the the storm from afar and kind of glean what is actually uh pe- what is actually good, what's actually going to be fun, what's going to work, and stuff like that. For sure. People listening are probably thinking "Well, Thomas and Chris have money to pay someone to do this." Right. I what I want to say is I don't think everybody knows that Chris is This is You You started making games. You started learning how to make games three I think it was 3 years ago, right? Yeah, the timeline's fuzzy, but about 3 years ago, yeah. So, you're you're right alongside everybody listening. It's just you did something right, and I want to figure out Can you take me some steps of how how you did what you did? Like you're sitting here as a full-time game developer, and 99% of

people listening right now are like, "I would kill for that." How did you do it? I think if if you're watching this video, you of course have some sort of desire to make a game or tangentially maybe you're just interested in game design. Um you I It's different for everyone. Let's just get that out there, that caveat. It's going to be different for everyone. I'm just going to tell you my experience. Uh I I'm the kind of person who needs a mentor. Uh someone that I can just ask a bunch of like vomit a bunch of questions about everything cuz I'm the kind of person who needs to know I I love to know how things work and why they work rather than just uh rather I like to know how thing what You might have to cut that. I I like No, we're going to keep it. We're going to keep everything here. Keep it as real as possible. Okay. Okay. I stumbled, but I I I'm the kind of guy who likes to know why things work. Um I I I ask a lot of questions why to

the point that like my team is like super annoyed with me because they think I'm like testing them or something, but I'm actually like trying to engage in like some sort of uh dialogue. But um so I always like to have a mentor or someone who like has experience. Maybe they've already shipped a game. If you don't have access to that kind of person, you can find access to that kind of person fairly easily on forums, Reddit, Discord groups, and stuff like that. Um like-minded individuals who can who will be more than happy to help because they've helped me. Um and obviously Thomas, you're one of them, right? Uh it's I think a lot of people know this, but I actually was a student in your like one of the very early students in your full-time game dev course, and this is not an ad or anything. I'm just speaking from like my experience. Um so, in a lot of ways like Thomas was my mentor in that course that he created. And

Thomas, the way Thomas teaches or should I speak I should speak to you. Okay, the way you teach you want. You can speak however you want. The The way you teach is somehow clicked with me so well because I think we kind of have a similar background and like graphic design. You're You're very creative guy. Um you look at even the technical aspects of things very creatively and visually rather side note here, the technical side, when someone tells me to do it the right way, I immediately do it the wrong way on purpose because I get frustrated I get frustrated frustrated when technicians say you have to do it this way, and often times this is just a side note, often times what happens is when they go, "This is the right way to code. This is the right way to make a game." blah blah blah blah blah, that often times weighs people down, and they don't finish their freaking game. Mhm. For sure. what bugs me so much about the technical side. So, yes, I've I approach the technical side chaotically, and it's

almost on purpose. But anyway, go ahead. Right. And And I think that annoys uh Trevor sometimes cuz when he was learning to code and stuff, like you'd go on forums and people's like, "This is the correct way to do it." There is no correct way to do it. And often times even if you when you do something incorrectly, it leads to these advancements and these really cool happy accidents. Um so, you know, nobody Those people on the internet who sound like they really know what they're talking about don't necessarily understand the bigger picture. Um they're probably very talented, but um Uh anyways, like so, taking that course was a big step. Everything just clicked. Those videos, like you made it seem so simple. It didn't feel like this cumbersome like coding course where people are just like there's a mono- monotonous guy talking to you in a camera telling you what a what a function does. So, it just clicked. And also you

packaged it with like the the you zoomed out and you said, "How do we get funding? How do we market?" Like every single facet of game design because you've been you're experienced in the in the in the field. So, once like I I you know, as a creative director I suppose like I'm a big picture guy, right? So, once I was able to see the full picture and you kind of and feeling confident that you would be able to show me or at least um let me see all the elements that go into shipping a game. I it felt so much more manageable cuz I could see it from a bird's eye view of all the elements that it need you need to ship a game, which are a lot and it's extremely difficult, but it felt manageable when you're able to see it from above. You know what's so funny is that I you know one of the one of the vices of humanity is focusing on money.

Mhm. You know, you shouldn't focus on money too much because it'll make your life miserable. But at the opposite end of the flip side of the coin is if you can focus on money when it comes to making your game, it actually makes things so much clearer. Like for me, I don't know if this was true for you, but like it's like how do I how do I how do I make some money off this game and go full-time? Like that to me has always been the question. Cuz cuz like once you get the money, then making the game is much easier because it's like well, now I got the I got have time to do it. I can do it full-time. I don't have to worry about launch. I don't have to get paranoid about making enough money. And I can hire out people and I can get some help or even just small like part-time contract workers, right? So, like the idea of like the the the initial the initial This is what I tell anybody who's saying, "Hey, I want to make a game. What do I need to do?" The first thing I tell them is, "What's

your freaking hook? What is your hook?" Because if you don't have a hook, you're not going to sell anything. Most likely. Most likely. And so, people think, "Well, why is Thomas Thomas bringing up the hook? Shouldn't I learn how to code?" No. Figure out your hook. Because I don't want you to learn how to code if you can't sell your hook. learn to code while you're making the game. Don't worry about that. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Absolutely. Dude, I got I I I remember this uh like it was yesterday. I was out in uh I think it was in San Francisco or something for some reason, for some game show. And I reached out to the one of the creators of Earthworm Jim, and I I messaged him and I said, "Can I get lunch with you?" And he's for some reason he said, "Yes." And so, I drove down to some seaside town. It was really like really bougie, really nice. And he took me out to lunch, and I gave him this whole pitch about this like game idea I had. I had printed this thing out. I spent 2 weeks putting together this pitch for him just cuz I wanted his ideas. I spent all this money

on these on the the game uh mechanics and the artwork and the style. And he pushed it aside and he said, "There's no hook." Now, he didn't say it as brutally as that. But, he said, "You you've got to have a hook here, man. Like there's nothing else that you need to focus on other than that one-sentence hook." And for you, you know, you one of your hooks is Hollow Knight, but in Japan, and I think that's great. And as much as maybe I would be scared of being associated with Hollow Knight cuz it's it's hard to compete, it is a really good hook. And so, for you in your journey to as Silk Song at home. Yeah. one. That's another one of our hooks. There you go. Yeah, so like for you, like it was that helpful to you? Um like bringing everything into this sort of like aiming your aiming the gun before you worry about how to shoot the gun. Was that helpful to you? Aiming it towards a target of how do I how do I get funded? if you're talking in relation to like

how you preach that, I think like earlier on when I was a student of yours, you didn't quite preach that as hard. You you've definitely probably mentioned but now you're going full on and I really appreciate that cuz it is actually the main thing, the first thing that you should be doing. Um so I don't know if anything we did in that in that way was intentional, like getting a hook or anything like that. I think it was really like the whole idea for Bo was just based off what I wanted to see in a video game and all of the elements of really cool cool things that I've seen in other video games that I wanted to like creatively explore in my own game. Yeah. So that's kind of how that happened. Mhm. Okay, so you you took you took Thomas's course. I'll pay you $300 after this call by the way. No, I'm kidding. Um thank thank you for being so kind about that. That means a lot to me. Yeah, I I quite honestly I would have never started if I hadn't just one night randomly said, "Okay, let's watch some videos, Thomas Brush videos." Yeah,

seriously. Well, that's great, man. I appreciate that. It really does mean a lot to me. So you I helped sort of show you the way like a Jedi. Um and what about the what about the technical side? Like, okay, so Thomas shows you how to get funding, Thomas shows you how to market a game, but like was it difficult for you to learn how to make a game in Unity? You you definitely gave us some big blocks when you were you know in your videos. I I think there was a period where things start to click. Uh you start to really understand like prefabs or whatever and and and just In the beginning it's so overwhelming. You're like a scene? What is a scene? Like What are the implications called a level? Right. What are the implications of making a new scene? Like how do I connect them or whatever? There's so many things. But um Yeah. Um after a while like I felt like you know we were when I while I was taking

your course you were teaching me how to crawl, walk, and then at some point I felt confident enough to like deviate, right? So That that probably came when uh Trevor uh our our lead programmer came on. When I realized coding wasn't perhaps my forte, uh I was more of the creative on the creative art side, right? And making the art. So when he came on and he kind of had his own idea of how to do things, um you know everything started to mesh a little bit differently. Uh I don't know. I think you just practice something every day and it just becomes so comfortable. Like all the hot keys and you know, I mean I probably have my 10,000 hours in Unity at this point and like Yep. Well, how did you keep that motivation though? Like one of the big problems I would say with majority people listening right now

they're excited by this conversation, especially if they've been sticking around for 38 minutes here. They're excited. It's so exciting and they're motivated, but they know deep down. They know they know themselves. I'm not going to follow through. And give it 2 weeks and I'm I'm going to quit my game. What Why did Why is it you put in all those hours? What kept you going, and what kept the fire burning? I think a little bit of it is probably like your own character uh or my own character. Uh I never I tend I probably quit things before, but I I'm the kind of person who always follows through to the end of something and never quits. Like even in you know, I had a stupid example, but even like playing League of Legends and everyone's like, "Let's surrender. Like this game is lost." I'm like, "Even if all of you leave right now, I am going to 1 v 5 this enemy team just because I know it's going to make me better, um challenge me." Even though like the

odds are impossible, like somehow your investment is not going to be wasted. It's not about winning, it's about like pushing through to the end and seeing what you can learn along the way. So, I don't know. My character is I'm like I'm like kind of a stubborn guy who just doesn't quit. Um and in addition to that, like once we started getting team members on, I felt so responsible for um their livelihoods and their I wanted to also see them succeed. I became kind of like I'm not that like old or anything, but I felt like a father figure to some of these uh a lot of the a lot of the our team was pretty green. So, I I They became my friends, and I wanted to support them and see them succeed and like say, "Hey, you can do this." Like push push them a little for like for example, one of the artists that I brought on Alex he was not an animator, but one day he like randomly showed me like this goofball project he he worked on with animation. And then I was like, "Wow, you I could I could identify that he had

some chops, right?" So, I gave him all the tools he needed to succeed uh whether I bought him like this little course or whatever, and um and then he he ended up doing like some of the craziest best animations in the game just because like Wow, dude. Yeah. So, I think I I basically felt a lot of responsibility to my team and also the Kickstarter backers, right? They they gave us money. Every dollar was a vote of confidence that we would complete this game and I just that caused a lot of anxiety for sure. But ultimately that is one of the biggest reasons why I was able to see it through to the end is because of Well, you know, you just mentioned you just mentioned how you made it from the 15th lap or the 15th mile to the 23rd mile. Let's say you're running a marathon. Uh-huh. But a lot of people haven't even figured out how to stay motivated past the first mile. What I mean is

yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, once you get kickstarted it's dude, it's not hard to be motivated after you've been kickstarted. After you've been kickstarted, it's like I don't want to get sued. So, of course you're going to follow through. Right, right. Here's a better Here's a better question that I think people are wondering. How did Chris go from zero to having the to to having the motivation to to create some kind of Kickstarter campaign and then get that and have the balls to to hit submit? Like that's a it's a really scary thing to do a Kickstarter campaign. It's so scary because because you know that once you get your first dollar you have to finish. Yeah. Right? So, what got what what motivated you to get to the Kickstarter campaign and how did you have enough courage to release that? I think in my life I always wanted to

come somehow create something creative like like a big creative project that would last, people would see, people would recognize, people would resonate with. Um because I grew up as a visual artist my whole life and there was a long stretch where I abandoned it, right? I wasn't really doing anything creative. And when COVID hit, like that I felt like that was the opportunity to really put my put my money where my mouth was and really buckle down and do something that would have some sort of legacy in the creative field. And and video game design was like a coalescence of all that. So, I don't know what it's it's just like this inherent drive I have and and maybe maybe some people don't have that. Like um and maybe if you if you see yourself giving up after 2 weeks, um either either you don't have enough drive or you need to find someone who has drive and work with them and team up. I think like it's important

that one person in the team has that drive and has like leadership qualities, communication skills, to help keep the fire lit. Because that you know, the the fire will go out unless there you need a dedicated uh what are those people called that keep fires going? At in like blacksmiths, bellows? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, bellows, yeah. Yeah, you need a dedicated person on your team and often times that that's the director Yeah. who juggles everything from HR to like uh I don't know, keeping people motivated and morale up and stuff like that. So, that's part of that role. So, if you find yourself as a person who gives up easily like team up, find someone who can help you. I don't know, it all goes back to finding people to help you. For sure. Oh, yeah. I'm all about it. Um what when you said that you were you used to be creative when you were younger and then you became not creative and I think you maybe you were

working a job or something that was uncreative. Uh yeah. Essentially. Yeah. And then all of a sudden when COVID hit you were like, "Time to buckle down." What I translated you when you said that I What I heard was, "I have really high standards for myself." And it's because of something I believed about myself when I was younger. Is that true? Like what when you were a kid and when you were a teenager, did you think of yourself as, "I'm the artist." That was your identity, "I'm the artist." Absolutely. Like I was the art kid. Everyone knew I was the art kid. I was the kid who was good at drawing or whatever, right? So I maybe that's ingrained in me somehow like deep in my psyche that um man this is your identity, man. Yep. Or there was my identity and it's like maybe it's coming back now. Um Did um did your parents put that into you? No. I mean my my mom I mean they supported me like I love my parents. They totally supported all my art

artistic endeavors. Are they creative people? I wouldn't really say so. Yeah. But did they did they say that you were that? Did they Yes. I'm My question is who labeled you that first? Oh, wow. Perhaps my Actually my grandmother. Cuz she was an artist. Actually but she's not my biological grandmother but she you know, so I didn't get like the genetic uh artistic talent from her but she always She would buy me art supplies, right? Like she just kind of heard that I liked art and because she was kind of a painter just a hobbyist, she wanted she was like, "Oh, this is my chance to like Yeah. invest in him." So she would always support me. And um you know, she she passed like when I was 15 or something and you know, I felt honestly I felt a lot of duty to her to kind of like do something that

something artistic in my life that would withstand the test of time in some way. Sure. One of my favorite things to do is to to psychoanalyze why somebody quits something. Like the the bad kind of quitting. Um not the good kind. The good kind of quitting is like quitting nicotine, which I've quit for not uh what is it? 2 months now. I was uh I was I love I love nicotine. I It's my favorite thing and it's probably because of some ADHD kind of thing where I just love that focus I get. So I just quit I was like I've got to be I've got to quit this. So I quit. Um So but there's a good kind of there's a there's a bad kind of quitting. And I I love figuring it out why people quit things. Um The the I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is, but motivation comes from identity, in my opinion. So motivation comes from this place of I am something. And so therefore I I will do something. It human beings, we love to think of ourselves as like characters in a book.

Like we just we we we create this identity or this avatar of who we are. The problem is is most people 80% of people, I think, have this really crappy view of themselves. And so they're like, "I'm the guy who quits." They lie to themselves. "I'm the guy or gal who quits things. So I'm going to quit this thing. I'm the guy or gal who gets up at 9:00 a.m. That's who I am. I'm the person who stays up till 3:00 a.m. watching Netflix. That's who I am." And they hate themselves. And then if you if you go down the the ladder or the the funnel even more, I've found that the reason why people have a bad identity of who they are is because someone in their family or their close community, number one, dismantled who they were with with the way they spoke about them. Or number two, were apathetic in their delivery or in in their assigning an identity to that

person. So, like your grandmother, she did a good job of like putting that label on you in a gentle way. It sounds like she was great. And it was like Chris is an artist. Chris is an artist. And so, you started to hear that, and you go okay, and you start to tell yourself this. I am an artist. That is who I am. Even though maybe you sucked. I don't know. Some people really suck, but because they've been given that label, they nurture it, and they have the courage to keep nurturing it. And so, my my heart hurts with people listening right now. And let me know in the comments if you if you know what I'm talking about, where nobody nurtured an identity for you. Or people dismantled an identity for you. And what that does is that causes you to lie to yourself about who you are. And so, when when you get motivated by something like this podcast, next week you look at yourself in the the mirror, and you say, I'm not that. I can't be a game developer. I can't be an artist. And it's because

you weren't you weren't nurtured in a specific kind of identity. And I just wish that there was a magical spell that would help people allow people to see themselves in an identity that they've never seen before. Like for me, I don't find it very difficult to go, you know what? I'm the tattoo guy. Even though I have no tattoos, and I'm kind of dorky, I'm the tattoo guy. And then all of a sudden, bang. Thomas is the tattoo guy in his head, and he's not afraid to get a tattoo, right? Or they So, what I did was I said, when I was like 20, I was like, I'm going to be the fitness guy. Bang. Firm. Even though I was scrawny, I was like, oh, I'm the fitness guy. That's who I am. And you snap your fingers, and you become this identity, and it's fun. It's there's no pressure. And then you stay that way, and it's exciting. Do you know what I'm I'm I'm not sure if I'm rambling here. I've I've absolutely felt exactly what you're saying in in different facets of my life for sure. I I've never quite looked at it that way, but it everything fits, you know,

when you explain it like that. Cuz most people they they they they they peg themselves as something and then they they always they gravitate towards that where they've pegged themselves. Absolutely. And so that's why they like nobody becomes a nobody becomes a game developer like fully be most people don't because they quit something because they don't have high standards for that identity. You do. You're like, I'm the artist, so of course I'm going to finish my game. Right, and I'm the artist. And and another thing I I don't I want to talk about with that is like sometimes people don't realize what their talents are and sometimes they do. So, for example, some people like for example, I was an artist, so I knew that I was had some talent there. But I also have skills in communication and um leadership just because I was I brought I was I took I was in the Boy Scouts. I'm actually an Eagle Scout. So, like that that really taught me a lot about like lead leadership and and I did also a leadership program after high school.

So, I think sometimes when people want to do game dev, they think um and and especially solo devs, they they often are very good at one thing like art or coding, right? Um but don't understand that in order to like actually ship a game and see it to like the final uh the end of production, you need a guy, a producer, a director, or some some very strong person with strong leadership qualities to see that through. And maybe that's not you. But I think like that is a very key uh thing kind of like a shepherd or someone who can like a very a very strong character who can push you and and maybe that's not you and that's fine. Um, but I think like a lot of game dev people don't or people who are just getting started in game dev who have never shipped a game maybe quit several times, that's one piece that they're lacking. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's true. Yeah,

so it sounds like there's And I I love to identify and pinpoint potential leaders. I I I like I like to think I'm a good leader. Um You definitely are. And And thank you. And And it sounds like you are as well. And when I find somebody who could be a leader, but they don't know that they could be, Mhm. I love that. it fires me up. I love it so much. I get so excited. Like And And And this this relates to just pinpointing potential business owners and potential entrepreneurs. Like that you get somebody who's like they seem like they could be a an entrepreneur. I get so excited. I just want to go get lunch with them and just tell them everything. But there's also part of me that I realize this is a weakness I have, which is not everybody's meant to lead. That's correct. And not everybody's meant to be an entrepreneur. Instead, some people are meant to and they want to be the gear among other gears, you know? Exactly. And if that's you if that's you in the comments, I I think it's great in the

audience listening, I think Chris's advice is really good here, which is go find somebody who can lead you, and maybe you'll be fulfilled in the game industry. Yeah. And and it sounds kind of scary or like negative almost. Someone's going to lead to me like some sort of like overlord that's going to tell me what to do. In in the ideal situation, it's it's a friend or someone that it's it's a conversation. It's a dialogue. You're working together. And this person's just like filling in a missing piece, and you're filling in their missing piece because they can't draw necessarily or compose music or whatever it is. Some There is few There are few people, Thomas is one of them, who can do everything. Um very extremely rare, but like uh it's very likely that you, you know, some people are hyper talented at one thing and completely skill-less in another thing. And that's why you need a team. I got you. I got you.

So, moving on to sort of wrapping up getting to Kickstarter, you you wanted to make this your moment where you you followed through with something creative and you made something happen for yourself. So, that was sort of the driving force Right. for getting to Kickstarter. Right. Uh you got funded on Kickstarter. Yep. And then we could go we could go all into Kickstarter, but that's probably for another podcast. Um And then after that, you got funded by Humble Humble Games, right? Yeah. That was about a a year after the Kickstarter. So, let's talk really quickly, just in general, okay? Gen- general advice for people listening. Kickstarter and and getting a up a publisher, are they similar? Is the process similar to getting funding from both? Well, I think we had a probably unique situation. We we actually didn't reach out to any publishers in our development and we were approached before Kickstarter. So What? Yeah, and and I'll tell you how we

did that. Um we I saw some GDC talk. I I couldn't tell you which one it was. It was some guy and he said, "Show early and off Show your game early and often." And that and the way he emphasized that and when I when I took that in and truly understood what that meant, like it really resonated with me. Um so, I did that. I showed like even the crappiest like very prototypical stuff early and often and I paid attention to what people were saying. Like oh wow, th- this this element's cool. And I I would look into like why they thought this certain element was cool and kind of like getting a bigger picture of what was special about the game and then doubling down on it. So, it's a little bit of AB testing. It's something you're really good at, too, Thomas, by the way. You do that kind of stuff all the time on Twitter and even when you're doing your game dev vlogs, right? Uh Yep. Yep. It's It's also It could be a

problem, as well, cuz sometimes you just have to go with your gut. You can't rely fully on the audience. Right. And absolutely. Yeah. But in the beginning was super helpful because I as artists, sometimes you're like don't know what's what you produce a lot of cool things, but you don't necessarily know what other people will find cool. You're happy with any of the choices, but maybe one is actually will buy, right? If If someone finds it cool, Right. they're more likely to buy. So, that it's important to sample your audience cuz it tells you is this game going to sell? Yeah. You know. A positive response from someone who saw it is is a is there them saying, "Wow, this has value." Or this art style has value because um they're responding positively to it. And value equals money. So, Money. Yeah. Which is at the end of the day, yeah, money is just a a form of someone showing that your art is valuable to them. To them it personally. That's right.

That's what of people think of money as like you're taking it from somebody. It's like like if I If I'm passionate about making money from my games, it's cuz Thomas is like stea- stealing people's money. And it's like I'm not stealing $15 from somebody when they buy a game. They In their minds, they said, "This game is worth more than my $15. So, let's do a trade." Yeah. And that's great. You know, that's what you want. You want to be able to make a game that, like you said, is perceived as valuable to somebody else. And your own ideas and what you find exciting and what you think looks cool isn't necessarily what's valuable to someone else. Right, right. And your job as a game dev and you're really good at this, your job as a game dev is to half of yourself is somebody who cares about what your audience's perception of your game is. And then the other half of yourself is what your perception of the game is. And you're kind of like split. You get this split personality

between wanting what your audience wants and wanting what you want. And to balance that and to figure out which instinct and impulse to use, your audience's or yours is what I think what's what differentiates a a wealthy game developer and a not wealthy game developer. Um that's purely a monetary discussion. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person if you can't provide value to the audience. If you can't, that's you're not going to make money, that's for sure. But it doesn't mean you're a bad person or a bad artist. Not not in the least. Like F. Scott Fitzgerald, one of my favorite writers wasn't very profitable in his lifetime. So he was very bad at identifying value. It wasn't bad, but he wasn't the best at identifying value or what his audience finds valuable in his writing at that era. But I mean, goodness, look at his look at his legacy now. It's very valuable in in especially in The Great Gatsby. So it's a it's a difficult conversation to

have because you need to worry about your current game sales, but potentially you could leave a legacy with something that you just put your heart into that wasn't valuable at the time. Right. Right? And I think um if you're lucky, your your what you think is cool is going to be in parity with what the audience thinks is cool. Um Mhm. And and it's not just necessarily luck, like right? You you as a game developer you need to be a heavy consumer of media, movies, books, games, obviously, cart- anime, cartoons, different different things that are pushing the boundaries of like what is visually striking, what is resonating with people narratively. And the more you build up that Rolodex, the better your taste will become. Um and the better your taste is, the more easily you're able to create something that is going to appeal to people. So That's really good. Dude, that just made

me think about how my daughter, she's six, she said uh I think she said she doesn't like Coke or something. And I was like, "Well, let's let's let's just I you know, I don't want her to love Coca-Cola cuz it's terrible for you." But I was like, "Try it out, you know, see what you think." So she's like, "No, I really don't want it." And so I said, "No, just take a sip." And she took a sip and loved it, obviously. It's delicious. And so, point being though, is that as an artist, you may say, "But I'm only going to make a game or an art style or whatever that is what I love. I'm not going to step into all these other crazy ideas that young players are playing." I say that all the time. Like I'm always like, um I don't want to play Gen Z games because they confuse me. But sometimes you just have to play them to figure out why they're appealing. And then maybe that'll change your taste buds to then be excited to make that kind of game. You know what I mean?

Sure. And nothing against people who want to make a game that only they will like, but if their goal is to be financially successful, that is not going to happen. Um because maybe it's just it's just logically that's not going to happen. I mean, it could happen just by some chance, but um you have all these tools to like see what people like. You know, we can display our game on Twitter, YouTube, whatever, right? Like a lot of these very successful games recently have had these crazy social media campaigns. Or even like uh Choo-Choo Charles, um that whole his meteoric rise on YouTube created an immensely successful game because he was making the content for it. And um Yeah. Um Yeah. I forget where I was going with that, but You know, and that's that is ultimately that is ultimately what I think you've been able to do Yeah. with um with Bow. It's like

it's like you stayed Chris the artist that your grandmother instilled in you. But you also cared about how do we how do I build a team? And how do we make some money off this thing before we even release it? If I make money, I don't mean you're like, give me some money. Um and let's pocket it. No, it's like you you got the funding to actually do this thing full-time. And you did that before you even launched your game. I think that's really really impressive and you did it in 3 years. So as we wrap up here, man, it looks like we've been going for about an hour here. Is anything else you wanted to leave the audience? Um Yeah, I guess some plug stuff. Uh we will be a part if that's okay. I'm not sure when this is going to come out, but um um June 10th to the 17th, our free demo will be live during the Steam Next Fest. So go ahead and download it, try it, let us

know what you think, and give us a wish list. Like we we really appreciate wish lists, and uh the game comes out on July 18th. So um see you there. Nice. If anybody's curious and this will hopefully give you more wish list, Chris. If anybody's curious wish list during a next fest that's that's when you get the most wish lists. Right. Um that's that's at least traditionally what we're told. So, next fest is insanely important for Chris. So, if you guys thought Chris was helpful today click the link below and support Chris by wish listing. All right, man. Thanks for hanging out, dude. I learned so much. That was so fun. Likewise. Thanks, Thomas. Yeah, dude. Cheers. Wish list below, guys. Get over here. Trick dog. Hey. Thanks for watching. By the way, if you haven't downloaded that free 2D game kit below, click below. It's my treat to you. I used this game kit to make a game

for PewDiePie in 14 days and actually got to play it with him in front of his audience, which is really cool. This game kit is totally free. It's my treat to you and you can use it however you want. You can make a commercial game and make a million bucks off this game kit. I don't care. Or you can just use it for a hobby project. It's my treat to you. And by the way, if you haven't clicked like, that would mean a ton to me. Hit subscribe. And also, this is important. Hit that notification bell. Here's why. If you get notified of when I'm live, you can watch me make my next game and let me know in the chat what you think about the game or any ideas you have and you might just show up. Your chat might just show up in the next video that I upload. All right. I'll talk to you later. Bye. I love you, too.